From GD. Heads up for those with 5.56 green tip ammo or were planing to buy it. ATF may reclassify it as armor piercing.

Just released notice .... ATF intends to reclassify and ban "armor piercing" ammo including M855

"To ensure consistency, upon final implementation of the sporting purpose framework outlined above, ATF must withdraw the exemptions for 5.56 mm “green tip” ammunition, including both the SS109 and M855 cartridges."

3/6/15 ***Update***
As cross posted from another thread. Katie Pavlich is reporting that the ATF 2014 Regulation Guide, which was published in January, there is no longer an exemption for AR-15 "green-tip" ammunition. See this post on page two of current thread.

3/7/15 ***Update***
ATF now claims it was a publishing error and their 2014 rules will be revised to include the material they left out. See this post on page two of current thread.

3/8/15 ***Update***
237 Congressmen send letter to ATF expressing concern over banning "green tip" ammo. See this post on page three of current thread.

3/10/15 ***Update***
52 Senators send letter to ATF opposing ban. See this post on page five of current thread.

ATF announces it "will not at this time seek to issue a final framework". See the this link for ATF notice on page five of current thread.

Looks like I may ornmay not have a fee hundred rounds to dispose of

The ATF is run by douchebags...but we already knew that

How can they make it AP?  It's standard issue military ammo.

I think this is funny.  Nearly all rifle rounds can go through soft body armor.  I like ss109, but it is outdated.  There are more effective bullets in 556.

Looks like my investment in reloading is going to come in handy.

How does so much shit go so wrong is so few years?

How CAN it be AP???  Don't you have to shoot at armor to pierce armor??  I thought that was illegal.  Oh wait.  I guess they expect us to become terrorists or begin shooting at government stuff.  This is only the beginning.  Wait until some bean counter decides to limit what calibers we can buy and how much.  We'll have a little card in our wallets that will be punched when we go to by a box of .22.  

Do these people have nothing better to do with their day other than to attack the law-abiding, registered gun owners here?  Don't they have enough bad guys to pursue or time to find the guns THEY lost??  This maddening.

The problem is the ATF and DoD have different definitions to AP.
This is why M995 (black tip) was designed for the M4, to compensate for M885s ineffectiveness against hard targets.
To the ATF, a kindergartner's backpack is considered armor.

If it were really to stop it being used as a "sporting round", a law could be adopted to ban NATO ammunition from hunting purposes. That is not what is happening here.

not to derail this thread, but what are tracer rounds classified as? i havnt seen them at cabelas before...i saw a redbox of american eagle so i picked it up and it said tracer 556 or something

Tracers are still fine, I dont know what they're classified as though.
A lot of ranges wont let you shoot them though....fire hazard. Thats more of a back yard range fun time round.

Anyone have a line on any M855?  I just want a few boxes to put away.  ETA: Found some at Midway.

When I first started shooting this is all I bought(a few years ago).....such a shame, I stupidly shot a few thousand rounds of this stuff at paper.

Walmart in Manchester usually has the 150rd packs.

So... I heard the 855 was designed to pierce Russian helmets. Not something I'm terribly concerned with. It is actually LESS effective than 55 grain at defeating certain types of body armor. From what I've read M193 defeats level 3 AR500 at closer range, 855 defeats level 3 poly plates. Lots of stuff defeats level 4 plates after the first few hits. Pick your poison.

Little by little, they chip away.


When will your line get drawn? When they ban all ammo?

this one will be a bitch fest for a week and forgotten. there are so many options for ammo in 5.56 that this really doesn't effect anyone.

nobody seems to give a fuck until after the fact , way after

Can believe the ATF has the jurisdiction, to just change their mind. I mean I know they have been doing it for a long time, and I'm pretty new to the 2A game. But this and the Sig brace. Hey y'all, heard you were doing some crap we didn't like, ingenuity and all. So we are gonna take our ball and go home like a little bitch.

They said that about The Stamp Act too.

except its not their ball

Being in CT I wonder if one should look to buy or not?  

I won't give up one more thing

Yup. They're not stupid, they know incrementalism is the path of least resistance. There's a reason the actions of Major John Pitcairn triggered a hot war. Even still, Bostonians willing surrendered arms at the request of Gage weeks after Lexington and Concord. There will always be men who push back their personal line until they push it into the void.

 

And after a cursory check online 62 grain is sold out at all of my usual spots. Glad I've got a bit. Now to Neckbeard or stash?

They may be looking to declare the round as not suitable for sporting purpose.  This is totally different than being classified as armor piercing.

Sell it at profit to idjots.

Looks like it's coming soon, a lot of people have had it with so called new good for the people laws.

Good article!



"Let’s say you don’t buy M855, perhaps you’re thinking “I don’t care, it doesn’t affect me.”

Wrong.

If this goes through, this WILL affect you, and here’s how. Yes, M855 will defeat level 2A body armor. But guess what? So will ANY .223 round, or any rifle round for that matter. What will stop them from banning other .223 ammunition (like XM193) next?

Remember their reasoning for the change – “protect the lives and safety of law enforcement officers from the threat posed by ammunition capable of penetrating a protective vest when fired from a handgun.” By that reasoning, all rifle ammunition capable of being fired from an AR pistol would be subject to ban.

Do you see the problem?"



What’s Going on with M855, Why It Matters, and What You Can Do

Ice bullets

"If you can't ban the platforms, ban the projectiles"   You bet I see the problem.

Have you seen the latest line of Sandy Hook commission prohibitions?  They recommend banning the possession of ammunition that isn't engraved with distinct serial numbers on the casings.  The only Earthly way they can accomplish that is to require the public to turn in all the ammunition they currently possess.

Gun control proponents...and regrettably, gun owners who are servile to gov't control...claim these are extreme examples which don't represent the viewpoint of the majority of gun control supporters.   The reality is that gun control proponents are becoming so increasingly radicalized and intolerant that these examples are really just promoting tomorrow's intended restrictions today.

Yeah and only being able to buy ammo for guns that you own.....


Like ammo I can't even fire is dangerous....

 
I was going to reply the same thing.




Are they anycloser to a decision on this? A quick internet search didn't show anything new.




Also FYI AIM has a bunch of that Swedish stuff in. $400 per 1k sealed in a can. It is supposed to be good quality M855 and is usually a little more than LC even.

Present from Brown today.






 

Rocky Hill Walmart has been wiped out $106.03 for 300 rds of ZQI.

Damn neckbeards !

 

Obama to ban bullets by executive action, threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2560750

It’s starting.

As promised, President Obama is using executive actions to impose gun control on the nation, targeting the top-selling rifle in the country, the AR-15 style semi-automatic, with a ban on one of the most-used AR bullets by sportsmen and target shooters.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this month revealed that it is proposing to put the ban on 5.56mm ammo on a fast track, immediately driving up the price of the bullets and prompting retailers, including the huge outdoors company Cabela’s, to urge sportsmen to urge Congress to stop the president.

Wednesday night, Rep. Bob Goodlatte, the Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, stepped in with a critical letter to the bureau demanding it explain the surprise and abrupt bullet ban. The letter is shown below.

The National Rifle Association, which is working with Goodlatte to gather co-signers, told Secrets that 30 House members have already co-signed the letter and Goodlatte and the NRA are hoping to get a total of 100 fast.

"The Obama administration was unable to ban America's most popular sporting rifle through the legislative process, so now it's trying to ban commonly owned and used ammunition through regulation," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA-ILA, the group's policy and lobby shop. "The NRA and our tens of millions of supporters across the country will fight to stop President Obama's latest attack on our Second Amendment freedoms."

<see link for full article>

<coc violation>

Supposedly ATF is asking for comments on their proposed "green tip" ammo ban on Facebook. People are leaving comments.

https://www.facebook.com/HQATF/posts/1608327346045802

ATF Wants Your Comments on Armor Piercing Ammunition Exemption Framework

ATF is interested in hearing from you. ATF released for public comment a framework, including legal and technical analysis, to guide its determinations on what ammunition is “primarily intended for sporting purposes.” The framework is intended to uphold the requirements of the statute and its goal of law enforcement protection while respecting the interests of sportsmen and the industry. The framework is not a final determination; ATF will accept comments for 30 days, and will finalize the framework after considering those comments and making any appropriate adjustments.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, provides the Attorney General the authority to exempt projectiles from the restrictions applicable to “armor piercing” ammunition if he determines the projectile is “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.” Between 1986 and 2011 the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) received few requests for such exemptions. Since 2011 ATF has received approximately 30 such exemption requests.

The GCA defines “armor piercing ammunition” as:

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”
Pursuant to the GCA, ammunition that meets this definition may be eligible for an exemption from the statutory restrictions placed on armor piercing ammunition if ATF finds the ammunition is “primarily intended” for sporting purposes. As part of its review process of the pending exemption requests, ATF sought input from industry and law enforcement organizations on the application of the “sporting purpose” exemption set forth in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C).

It is important to note that the limitation on “armor piercing ammunition” in the GCA does not apply to projectiles manufactured exclusively from non-restricted materials such as copper and lead; it only applies to projectiles that include the specifically restricted materials, and can be used in a handgun. The framework will not apply to projectiles manufactured exclusively from non-restricted materials; licensed manufacturers will continue to be free to manufacture such projectiles without seeking an exemption. For the complete framework go to http://ow.ly/JJHiE.

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.

Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

• ATF e-mail: [email protected]

• Fax: (202) 648-9741.

• Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.

A whole lot better than the $497 at the Torrington Walmart for 720 rds.

FYI, there is still a case if anyone is really desperate.  $0.70/rd may seem cheep in the future.

A bill has been introduced to Congress (House) that may seek to stop ATF from issuing and enforcing new restrictions on ammunition. No text yet, but the fact they use the word "new" many mean it won't affect existing bans. Obviously the chances of it getting signed by Obama are pretty slim (practically zero).

H.R.1180 - To prohibit the Government of the United States from issuing or enforcing a new restriction or prohibition on the manufacture, importation, or sale in the United States of ammunition.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/1180/

veto written all over it

Cross posting this article from another thread. Katie Pavlich is reporting that the ATF 2014 Regulation Guide, which was published in January, there is no longer an exemption for AR-15 "green-tip" ammunition.

EXCLUSIVE: Common AR-15 Green Tip Ammunition Already Banned in New ATF Regulation Guide

ATF 2014 Regulation Guide

Edit to add: From the article.
2005 ATF Regulation Guide:



2014 ATF Regulation Guide:


"The 2014 edition of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide contains information that will help you comply with Federal laws and regulations governing the manufacture, importation and distribution of firearms and ammunition. This edition contains new and amended statutes enacted since publication of the 2005 edition, as well as updated regulations and rulings issued by ATF. In addition to these updated materials, in response to inquiries received from industry members, the public, and partner agencies, the 2014 edition contains additional and amended Questions and Answers to assist with compliance," ATF Director B. Todd Jones states in the 2014 edition of the new Regulation Guide (emphasis mine). "Laws may change over time, as will information in this guide."

ATF says it was an "error"...

BREAKING: ATF Claims Guide with M855 Ban Was a “Publishing Error”
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/03/robert-farago/breaking-atf-claims-guide-with-m855-ban-was-a-publishing-error/

On Feb. 13, 2015, ATF released for public comment a proposed framework, including legal and technical analysis, to guide its determination on what ammunition is “primarily intended for sporting purposes” for purposes of granting exemptions to the Gun Control Act’s prohibition on Armor Piecing Ammunition. This proposed framework is posted for public comment only; no final decisions have been made as to its adoption . . .

Media reports have noted that the 2014 ATF Regulation Guide published online does not contain a listing of the exemptions for Armor Piercing Ammunition, and concluding that the absence of this listing indicates these exemptions have been rescinded.

Please be advised that ATF has not rescinded any Armor Piercing Ammunition exemption, and the fact they are not listed in the 2014 online edition of the regulations, was an error, which has no legal impact on the validity of the exemptions. The existing exemptions for armor piercing ammunition, which apply to 5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855 projectiles (identified by a green coating on the projectile tip), and the U.S .30-06 M2AP projectile (identified by a black coating on the projectile tip), remain in effect.

The listing of Armor Piercing Ammunition exemptions can be found in the 2005 ATF Regulation Guide on page 166, which is posted here.

The 2014 Regulation Guide will be corrected in PDF format to include the listing of Armor Piercing Ammunition exemptions and posted shortly. The e-book/iBook version of the Regulation Guide will be corrected in the near future. ATF apologizes for any confusion caused by this publishing error.

publishing error my ass


they changed the shit, and full intentions of sliding it under the door

The error was the fact people noticed it.

Fuck Dan Malloy and Fuck Barack Obama. Communist assholes!

Yeah doubt this was a simple proof reading error. I wouldn't be surprised if they intentionally left it out knowing that their proposed ban on green tip would sail through unopposed by the politicians (who cares what we little people think) and this would save them time and money in publishing future rules updates. They probably hoped no reporter (I mean reporters actually doing investigations on the ATF?) would take the time to read through the new publication looking specifically for that ammunition.

So is does this mean the neckbearding is over?

Are you kidding? .22LR is still hard to come by. The news has spun this as a complete 5.56mm ammo ban. People are panicking again. Neckbeards will always find something to capitalize on. Have you tried to buy powder lately?

So m885 is not being banned...
Neckbeard off.

It certainly wasn't flying off the shelf this morning at Cabela's. There were a fair number of PMC X-TAC boxes and then M855 battlepacks. Those were PMC too, which I had never seen in standard M855, just their X-TAC stuff. Amusingly enough, they had two 500 round bricks of 22LR too, that no one was touching. Norma brand, $79.
Powder was pretty bare, the sign even had some stuff listed that was actually sold out. I just realized something though. Pistol POWDER has been scarce, but pistol bullets are easy to get and actually on sale in many cases. WTF is with that? I guess there's a mismatch in production volume or folks are just stocking up on powder and figure they can make bullets if they have to.

Personally, I find the whole "about face" thing with this ban rather amusing, I think the same as many others. They didn't expect such a huge reaction and are trying to pretend that wasn't what they meant, without quite saying "no we aren't going to ban that."

I was just at cabelas and didn't see shit... 120 I walked in.  Bought some 6.8 but didn't see any 855...where's the secret spot?