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Posted: 3/19/2015 4:28:39 PM EDT
[#1]
Yes, you still have to fill out Paperwork (Form1) to make an SBR. The legal definition of an SBR is less than 26" OR a barrel less than 16 inches. What you are applying for in the Form 1 is to "make" a firearm which is now the SBR that you want to put together. The reason that you would have to engrave is because legally you are making a new Firearm, and the ATF expects the Firearm Makers information to be on there. As to the pistol question, it is perfectly legal to buy an upper less than 16" if you are going to put it on a pistol. This means that the uppers themselves are not restricted as it requires a lower with a stock to make an illegal SBR. As to purchasing the upper and keeping it on the down low, most people on here will just recommend building a pistol lower so you don't have to worry about any of the legalities.
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Posted: 3/19/2015 4:34:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I've been reading through this forum for about 2 hours now and i'm not anymore familiar with what exactly I need to do. I currently have a SW MP15 16". I simply want to purchase a 10.5" upper and put it on my lower. Do I still have to fill out federal paperwork? Absolutely. If you put a 10.5" upper on your lower you are creating a short barreled rifle which is federally regulated/taxed etc. I do understand that anything less than a total of 26" is considered an SBR by the Fed. Under 26" overall length OR barrel under 16" Everything I've found in the forums talks about engraving etc...I just want to buy the upper. Sorry it's not that simple. Any advisement or clarification would be appreciated. If I can purchase an upper and have it shipped direct to my house is it worth bypassing the Forms and just keeping it on the DL? That would be a federal felony, and possibly state level crime as well. I'm just confused as to why AR Pistols are seemingly so easy to purchase BEFORE you would have to fill out federal paper work... Any help?!?!?!? Because handguns are not as heavily regulated as short barreled rifles. Call your legislators and ask that they repeal the NFA restrictions on short barreled rifles. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 4:37:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
I've been reading through this forum for about 2 hours now and i'm not anymore familiar with what exactly I need to do. I currently have a SW MP15 16". I simply want to purchase a 10.5" upper and put it on my lower. Do I still have to fill out federal paperwork? I do understand that anything less than a total of 26" is considered an SBR by the Fed. Everything I've found in the forums talks about engraving etc...I just want to buy the upper. Any advisement or clarification would be appreciated. If I can purchase an upper and have it shipped direct to my house is it worth bypassing the Forms and just keeping it on the DL? I'm just confused as to why AR Pistols are seemingly so easy to purchase BEFORE you would have to fill out federal paper work... Any help?!?!?!? Edited my "durps" out 
No bi-passing the man on this. You will need to do the paperwork and Form 1 your lower. Mere possession of a barreled upper that has a barrel less than 16" overall is constructive intent; a no-no. Set up a trust and file on-line, should have a stamp in 40-50 days. Or do it the old fashion way, paperwork, finger print cards, photos, and the CLEO signature. Then wait til the later half of the year to see your stamp. Once you get the stamp, or beforehand, you need to engrave the lower with your info as you are the manufacturer of the SBR. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 4:57:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
I've been reading through this forum for about 2 hours now and i'm not anymore familiar with what exactly I need to do. I currently have a SW MP15 16". I simply want to purchase a 10.5" upper and put it on my lower. Do I still have to fill out federal paperwork? I do understand that anything less than a total of 26" is considered an SBR by the Fed. Everything I've found in the forums talks about engraving etc...I just want to buy the upper. Any advisement or clarification would be appreciated. If I can purchase an upper and have it shipped direct to my house is it worth bypassing the Forms and just keeping it on the DL? I'm just confused as to why AR Pistols are seemingly so easy to purchase BEFORE you would have to fill out federal paper work... Any help?!?!?!? It's actually a pretty simple process but I'll admit that it would be confusing if you had no help. If you really want an SBR, skip the pistol route and do it right. It's really easy. IM me and I'll walk you through it. But Google the difference between a pistol buffer tube and rifle tube and note the lack of "notches" on the bottom of the pistol buffer tube. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 5:53:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: If I can purchase an upper and have it shipped direct to my house is it worth bypassing the Forms and just keeping it on the DL? I'm just confused as to why AR Pistols are seemingly so easy to purchase BEFORE you would have to fill out federal paper work... Any help?!?!?!? Anything you post on a public forum is no longer "on the DL." |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 7:01:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Why would you have an "on the DL" upper? You want it just to look at or something bc if you take it out to shoot, there is a very real chance you may end up someone's "on the DL" ass piece
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Posted: 3/19/2015 11:33:42 PM EDT
[#7]
If you want a SBR and you own an AR or multiple AR's, pick one out, follow the Form 1 instructions and send it in (in duplicate) with a check for $200 and a cert of compliance and forget about it. Then one day it will come back, then order your short upper. In the intervening time you can send your lower off to be engraved if you wish. Do it today and the 8 month wait will breeze by.
If you wring your hands about it, it will never happen. |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 12:40:24 AM EDT
[#8]
If you have a short upper and a rifle that it can attach to, without having another lawful use for said item IE, SBR or pistol, you would be in constructive possession of an illegal SBR, regardless if you never attach it to your lower or keep for "in case of zombies". You will be committing a felony if u have no lawful purpose for that upper! Uppers are not regulated, but neither are knives, doesn't mean you can go and stab someone with it either.
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Posted: 3/20/2015 9:51:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Edited my "durps" out
No bi-passing the man on this. You will need to do the paperwork and Form 1 your lower. Mere possession of a barreled upper that has a barrel less than 16" overall is constructive intent; a no-no. Set up a trust and file on-line, should have a stamp in 40-50 days. Or do it the old fashion way, paperwork, finger print cards, photos, and the CLEO signature. Then wait til the later half of the year to see your stamp. Once you get the stamp, or beforehand, you need to engrave the lower with your info as you are the manufacturer of the SBR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've been reading through this forum for about 2 hours now and i'm not anymore familiar with what exactly I need to do. I currently have a SW MP15 16". I simply want to purchase a 10.5" upper and put it on my lower. Do I still have to fill out federal paperwork? I do understand that anything less than a total of 26" is considered an SBR by the Fed. Everything I've found in the forums talks about engraving etc...I just want to buy the upper. Any advisement or clarification would be appreciated. If I can purchase an upper and have it shipped direct to my house is it worth bypassing the Forms and just keeping it on the DL? I'm just confused as to why AR Pistols are seemingly so easy to purchase BEFORE you would have to fill out federal paper work... Any help?!?!?!? Edited my "durps" out
No bi-passing the man on this. You will need to do the paperwork and Form 1 your lower. Mere possession of a barreled upper that has a barrel less than 16" overall is constructive intent; a no-no. Set up a trust and file on-line, should have a stamp in 40-50 days. Or do it the old fashion way, paperwork, finger print cards, photos, and the CLEO signature. Then wait til the later half of the year to see your stamp. Once you get the stamp, or beforehand, you need to engrave the lower with your info as you are the manufacturer of the SBR. While I'm waiting for my stamp to come back can I start to collect the necessary parts for my upper. Meaning the barrel, the unassembled upper, hand guard, etc. or would this be considered constructive intent? |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 10:38:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
If I can purchase an upper and have it shipped direct to my house is it worth bypassing the Forms and just keeping it on the DL? Any help?!?!?!? The cost of the NFA stamp is considered a tax. There are many things the government is not good at, collecting taxes and punishing those who do not pay them are not on that list. $200, a few hoops and a long wait are better than prison and never owning a gun again. |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 11:05:34 PM EDT
[#11]
You can go ahead and buy an SBR upper and not pay the tax stamp or anything, just keep one thing in mind...
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Posted: 3/20/2015 11:08:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While I'm waiting for my stamp to come back can I start to collect the necessary parts for my upper. Meaning the barrel, the unassembled upper, hand guard, etc. or would this be considered constructive intent? While there's no such thing as "constructive intent", you don't want to be in a situation where the only thing you can build is an unregistered SBR. If you had another registered lower, you're fine. A handguard, a stripped upper, a bolt...you can use that for anything. The short barrel? Probably can't come up with a proper use...unless you're going to build it into a pistol first. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 6:32:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While there's no such thing as "constructive intent", you don't want to be in a situation where the only thing you can build is an unregistered SBR. If you had another registered lower, you're fine. A handguard, a stripped upper, a bolt...you can use that for anything. The short barrel? Probably can't come up with a proper use...unless you're going to build it into a pistol first. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
While I'm waiting for my stamp to come back can I start to collect the necessary parts for my upper. Meaning the barrel, the unassembled upper, hand guard, etc. or would this be considered constructive intent? While there's no such thing as "constructive intent", you don't want to be in a situation where the only thing you can build is an unregistered SBR. If you had another registered lower, you're fine. A handguard, a stripped upper, a bolt...you can use that for anything. The short barrel? Probably can't come up with a proper use...unless you're going to build it into a pistol first. Thanks for answer. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 6:53:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Buy a stripped reciever. It will have to be transfered as "other". Put a pistol reciever extension on it. Now you can posess an upper with a barrel that is shorter than 16". You cannot attach the short upper to a rifle reciever until you are in possession of the tax stamp for the SBR reciever. You want to avoid any situation where you have any rifle lower without a 16"+ upper to attach to it and also be in possession of an upper with a barrel of less than 16".
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Posted: 3/21/2015 10:51:07 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Buy a stripped reciever. It will have to be transfered as "other". Put a pistol reciever extension on it. Now you can posess an upper with a barrel that is shorter than 16". You cannot attach the short upper to a rifle reciever until you are in possession of the tax stamp for the SBR reciever. You want to avoid any situation where you have any rifle lower without a 16"+ upper to attach to it and also be in possession of an upper with a barrel of less than 16". Not quite true. As long as you have ONE pistol/SBR lower, you can possess an many short uppers as you wish. The number of non-pistol/SBR lowers and whether they each have 16+" uppers is irrelevant. The law states that each short upper must have a legal avenue of use. That is the one pistol/SBR lower. The law does NOT state each short upper must have a legal avenue of use AT THE SAME TIME, just they must have a legal avenue of use. One pistol/SBR lower, 19 upperless rifle lowers, 20 short uppers...perfectly legal. Not necessarily recommended, but still legal. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 11:10:24 AM EDT
[#16]
I may be wrong but I dont think the law states anything about constructive intent. I believe its a ruling/opinion of the ATF that constructive intent constitutes a violation of the NFA.
I don't know that there has even been a succesful prosecution based on this. It is essentially "thought crime." That being said, you don't ever want to enter into a legal battle with .gov. Even if you win you will end up ruined. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 11:27:38 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I may be wrong but I dont think the law states anything about constructive intent. I believe its a ruling/opinion of the ATF that constructive intent constitutes a violation of the NFA. I don't know that there has even been a succesful prosecution based on this. It is essentially "thought crime." That being said, you don't ever want to enter into a legal battle with .gov. Even if you win you will end up ruined. This is correct, except there is no such thing as "constructive intent" in firearms laws. Constructive Possession is not a law but a SCOTUS-affirmed legal structure to charge you with possession where there may be no actual assembled firearm in your possession. The logic is that if the only firearm that can be assembled from a pile of parts in your possession is an illegal firearm, you can be charged for possessing that illegal firearm. Your intent is irrelevant. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 11:48:00 AM EDT
[#18]
You can buy a stripped lower (aluminum or plastic) for $40 to $50 dollars, have it transferred as an other on the 4473, buy a pistol buffer tube for $30 to $40 dollars and stick it in one of your stripped lowers. For around $100 dollars you avoid the possibility of inviting the man into your life.
I keep a lower I built from 0% to complete with a pistol buffer tube stuck in it in my pile of project guns. I have 7.5", 10.5" and 11.5" uppers in 5.56, 300 blackout, and 7.62x39. I Consider it cheap insurance to keep a pistol lower on hand. Alternatively you can also buy Pistol marked lowers from a variety of manufacturers and keep them on hand also. I am in the process of building a 10.5" 308, simply to see how big the fireball is. I have a PSA 308 complete lower, and I just ordered the Aero M5 stripped lower which will transfer as a other on the 4473 so I can test a variety of barrel lengths on my 308 pistol |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:16:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
I don't know that there has even been a succesful prosecution based on this. Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:17:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I keep a lower I built from 0% to complete You built one from a 0%??? You took a solid block of metal, eh?
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:27:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You built one from a 0%??? You took a solid block of metal, eh? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I keep a lower I built from 0% to complete You built one from a 0%??? You took a solid block of metal, eh? To be fair, he never specified his 0% was metal. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:31:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't know that there has even been a succesful prosecution based on this. Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. US v. KENT Two others: US v. OWENS Amador case |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:34:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can buy a stripped lower (aluminum or plastic) for $40 to $50 dollars, have it transferred as an other on the 4473, buy a pistol buffer tube for $30 to $40 dollars and stick it in one of your stripped lowers. For around $100 dollars you avoid the possibility of inviting the man into your life. I keep a lower I built from 0% to complete with a pistol buffer tube stuck in it in my pile of project guns. I have 7.5", 10.5" and 11.5" uppers in 5.56, 300 blackout, and 7.62x39. I Consider it cheap insurance to keep a pistol lower on hand. Alternatively you can also buy Pistol marked lowers from a variety of manufacturers and keep them on hand also. I am in the process of building a 10.5" 308, simply to see how big the fireball is. I have a PSA 308 complete lower, and I just ordered the Aero M5 stripped lower which will transfer as a other on the 4473 so I can test a variety of barrel lengths on my 308 pistol Pistol marked lowers do not mean anything, legally speaking. How a lower is marked on a 4473 means nothing. How a lower is first built defines its' legal qualification. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:35:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't know that there has even been a succesful prosecution based on this. Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. There are literally dozens of cases of NFA-related CP. It's a very real thing. Here are a few key ones: US v Kokin US v Lauchli US v Endicott US v Drasen US v Woods US v Zeidman US v Shafer Read the Zeidman case, it has the most applicability to a disassembled upper and lower. Many of these were used as precedent in the US v Thompson Center case, which is a very key case for CP. Prior to the Thompson Center decision, CP was as simple as being able to build an illegal gun from a set of parts and ignoring all other factors. SCOTUS in the TC decision clarified that CP can only be used if the illegal firearm is the only possible way to assemble the parts. Hence Thompson Center could continue to sell their Contender as a kit even though an unregistered short-barrel rifle is a possible assembled configuration. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:35:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't know that there has even been a succesful prosecution based on this. Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. US v. KENT Two others: US v. OWENS Amador case See, there you go. It's not an Internet wives tale. They will most certainly pound your ass if they catch you. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:36:34 PM EDT
[#26]
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To be fair, he never specified his 0% was metal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I keep a lower I built from 0% to complete You built one from a 0%??? You took a solid block of metal, eh? To be fair, he never specified his 0% was metal. Play-doh does NOT count, and you know it! |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:42:33 PM EDT
[#27]
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Play-doh does NOT count, and you know it! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I keep a lower I built from 0% to complete You built one from a 0%??? You took a solid block of metal, eh? To be fair, he never specified his 0% was metal. Play-doh does NOT count, and you know it! How about polymer/plastic?
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:44:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How about polymer/plastic? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I keep a lower I built from 0% to complete You built one from a 0%??? You took a solid block of metal, eh? To be fair, he never specified his 0% was metal. Play-doh does NOT count, and you know it! How about polymer/plastic? I'll allow it. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 1:09:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pistol marked lowers do not mean anything, legally speaking. How a lower is marked on a 4473 means nothing. How a lower is first built defines its' legal qualification. To be clear, that's absolutely correct at the federal level, and in most states. However, some of the more restrictive states do have statutes that make you register them as pistols or other steps. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 1:24:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read the Zeidman case, it has the most applicability to a disassembled upper and lower. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't know that there has even been a successful prosecution based on this. Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. Read the Zeidman case, it has the most applicability to a disassembled upper and lower. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 1:30:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: See, there you go. It's not an Internet wives tale. They will most certainly pound your ass if they catch you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't know that there has even been a succesful prosecution based on this. Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. US v. KENT Two others: US v. OWENS Amador case See, there you go. It's not an Internet wives tale. They will most certainly pound your ass if they catch you. Does anybody know the outcome of Jesus Amador's case? I have found numerous items on his arrest but nothing on a conviction or trial. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 1:43:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be clear, I never said it was an internet wives tale or that they would do anything other than pound your ass. Quite the opposite actually. Does anybody know the outcome of Jesus Amador's case? I have found numerous items on his arrest but nothing on a conviction or trial. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't know that there has even been a succesful prosecution based on this. Yes, there was. It gets referenced on ARFCOM all the time. Someone will post it, I'm sure. If I recall, they raided a guys house for something (drugs?) and happened upon a rifle and somewhere else in the house a short barreled upped. During testimony an agent said it could be swapped out without tools in minutes to create an illegal SBR. They added that as a charge. US v. KENT Two others: US v. OWENS Amador case See, there you go. It's not an Internet wives tale. They will most certainly pound your ass if they catch you. To be clear, I never said it was an internet wives tale or that they would do anything other than pound your ass. Quite the opposite actually. Does anybody know the outcome of Jesus Amador's case? I have found numerous items on his arrest but nothing on a conviction or trial. It was just a blanket statement, not directed to you per se. People post on ARFCOM (quite often) that "they haven't actually prosecuted anyone for that", when in fact they have and will continue to do so. That's all. Public service announcement: $200 is cheaper than $100,000, and prison isn't as fun as whatever you are doing now. 
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Posted: 3/21/2015 1:47:28 PM EDT
[#33]
I never understood the reasoning behind trying to avoid the NFA and paying the $200. Unless you live in an SBR unfriendly state, where a pistol is your only option.
We have an expensive hobby where a quality optics mount costs $200. NFA is the cost of doing business. If you want an SBR, file the forms and pay the tax. (I'm talking to you too, Sig brace people). (Again, does not apply to those who cannot posses SBRs. Offer not valid in all 50 states) |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 2:07:05 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never understood the reasoning behind trying to avoid the NFA and paying the $200. Unless you live in an SBR unfriendly state, where a pistol is your only option. We have an expensive hobby where a quality optics mount costs $200. NFA is the cost of doing business. If you want an SBR, file the forms and pay the tax. (I'm talking to you too, Sig brace people). (Again, does not apply to those who cannot posses SBRs. Offer not valid in all 50 states) For Form 1's the engraving is an issue as well. With ARs its not an issue as they are a dime a dozen and become worthless once SBRed anyway. But once you start getting into scarce and expensive firearms it becomes painful to engrave anything on them. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 2:21:41 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never understood the reasoning behind trying to avoid the NFA and paying the $200. Unless you live in an SBR unfriendly state, where a pistol is your only option. We have an expensive hobby where a quality optics mount costs $200. NFA is the cost of doing business. If you want an SBR, file the forms and pay the tax. (I'm talking to you too, Sig brace people). (Again, does not apply to those who cannot posses SBRs. Offer not valid in all 50 states) Neither do I. One excuse is "I don't want to be on a registry (i.e. I don't want the gov to know I'm a gun owner)." Fair enough, as long as you also do not have a concealed weapons permit and purchased all of your firearms off the books. (I know, I know, 4473s are not technically forms of registration, but when the gov decides to confiscate, you bet they'll pull all 4473s). Another excuse is the incorrect assumption that by having NFA, the gov can search your residence, vehicles, place of business, etc. anytime they wish, and without warrant. There are some valid reasons for pistol over SBR: -Pistols do not require ATF Form 5532.20 to cross state lines. -Pistols are eligible for extended handgun hunting seasons. -Pistols are covered under many concealed weapon permits. -Pistols are easier to buy/sell/transfer (no paperwork). Simply buy another lower, LPK and pistol buffer tube for your SBR, and you can have the best of both. How much is a stripped lower, an LPK and pistol buffer tube at todays' prices? Maybe $150? |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 4:33:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
You can buy a stripped lower (aluminum or plastic) for $40 to $50 dollars, have it transferred as an other on the 4473... That's the only way for any firearm frame or receiver to be transferred.......it's not a choice to "have it transferred as an other". Quoted:
...How a lower is marked on a 4473 means nothing. Wrong. Very wrong. 
How a lower is first built defines its' legal qualification. A frame, receiver or lower does not have to be built to "define it's legal qualification"......its a firearm. You need to read you some regs.
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Posted: 3/21/2015 5:20:53 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not quite true. As long as you have ONE pistol/SBR lower, you can possess an many short uppers as you wish. The number of non-pistol/SBR lowers and whether they each have 16+" uppers is irrelevant. The law states that each short upper must have a legal avenue of use. That is the one pistol/SBR lower. The law does NOT state each short upper must have a legal avenue of use AT THE SAME TIME, just they must have a legal avenue of use. One pistol/SBR lower, 19 upperless rifle lowers, 20 short uppers...perfectly legal. Not necessarily recommended, but still legal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Buy a stripped reciever. It will have to be transfered as "other". Put a pistol reciever extension on it. Now you can posess an upper with a barrel that is shorter than 16". You cannot attach the short upper to a rifle reciever until you are in possession of the tax stamp for the SBR reciever. You want to avoid any situation where you have any rifle lower without a 16"+ upper to attach to it and also be in possession of an upper with a barrel of less than 16". Not quite true. As long as you have ONE pistol/SBR lower, you can possess an many short uppers as you wish. The number of non-pistol/SBR lowers and whether they each have 16+" uppers is irrelevant. The law states that each short upper must have a legal avenue of use. That is the one pistol/SBR lower. The law does NOT state each short upper must have a legal avenue of use AT THE SAME TIME, just they must have a legal avenue of use. One pistol/SBR lower, 19 upperless rifle lowers, 20 short uppers...perfectly legal. Not necessarily recommended, but still legal. Why not recommended? Is it not black and white? If not, you see my point. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 5:25:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's the only way for any firearm frame or receiver to be transferred.......it's not a choice to "have it transferred as an other". Wrong. Very wrong.
A frame, receiver or lower does not have to be built to "define it's legal qualification"......its a firearm. You need to read you some regs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You can buy a stripped lower (aluminum or plastic) for $40 to $50 dollars, have it transferred as an other on the 4473... That's the only way for any firearm frame or receiver to be transferred.......it's not a choice to "have it transferred as an other". Quoted:
...How a lower is marked on a 4473 means nothing. Wrong. Very wrong.
How a lower is first built defines its' legal qualification. A frame, receiver or lower does not have to be built to "define it's legal qualification"......its a firearm. You need to read you some regs. 
Read them plenty of times. You are correct, a lower reveiver is a firearm. It is, however, neither a rifle or pistol until first built. It can (erroneously) be transferred as a pistol or rifle on a 4473, but that does not magically make the receiver a pistol or rifle. Just as a fully built AR15 rifle erroneously transferred as a pistol will not change the legal classification. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 5:35:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why not recommended? Is it not black and white? If not, you see my point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Buy a stripped reciever. It will have to be transfered as "other". Put a pistol reciever extension on it. Now you can posess an upper with a barrel that is shorter than 16". You cannot attach the short upper to a rifle reciever until you are in possession of the tax stamp for the SBR reciever. You want to avoid any situation where you have any rifle lower without a 16"+ upper to attach to it and also be in possession of an upper with a barrel of less than 16". Not quite true. As long as you have ONE pistol/SBR lower, you can possess an many short uppers as you wish. The number of non-pistol/SBR lowers and whether they each have 16+" uppers is irrelevant. The law states that each short upper must have a legal avenue of use. That is the one pistol/SBR lower. The law does NOT state each short upper must have a legal avenue of use AT THE SAME TIME, just they must have a legal avenue of use. One pistol/SBR lower, 19 upperless rifle lowers, 20 short uppers...perfectly legal. Not necessarily recommended, but still legal. Why not recommended? Is it not black and white? If not, you see my point. This is a technical forum. We should strive to provide factual imformation and let the end user decide how they wish to proceed. Opinions should be labeled as such. The way your post was written sounded as if it was a law and not an opinion. The law is black and white. However, there are many things that may be legal to do, but not recommended. For instance, Passing a police officer on the freeway and yelling "F*ck you Pig!" and flipping the bird may be legal, but is certainly not recommended. There are other things, while not required by law, if exercised, may prevent problems before they happen. There is no legal requirement to carry copies of Form 1/4 when out and about with NFA items, but many do because having said paperwork may prevent a ride to the station in the first place if the paperwork assuages the LE as to the legality of said NFA items. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 8:08:28 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a technical forum. We should strive to provide factual imformation and let the end user decide how they wish to proceed. Opinions should be labeled as such. The way your post was written sounded as if it was a law and not an opinion. The law is black and white. However, there are many things that may be legal to do, but not recommended. For instance, Passing a police officer on the freeway and yelling "F*ck you Pig!" and flipping the bird may be legal, but is certainly not recommended. There are other things, while not required by law, if exercised, may prevent problems before they happen. There is no legal requirement to carry copies of Form 1/4 when out and about with NFA items, but many do because having said paperwork may prevent a ride to the station in the first place if the paperwork assuages the LE as to the legality of said NFA items. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Buy a stripped reciever. It will have to be transfered as "other". Put a pistol reciever extension on it. Now you can posess an upper with a barrel that is shorter than 16". You cannot attach the short upper to a rifle reciever until you are in possession of the tax stamp for the SBR reciever. You want to avoid any situation where you have any rifle lower without a 16"+ upper to attach to it and also be in possession of an upper with a barrel of less than 16". Not quite true. As long as you have ONE pistol/SBR lower, you can possess an many short uppers as you wish. The number of non-pistol/SBR lowers and whether they each have 16+" uppers is irrelevant. The law states that each short upper must have a legal avenue of use. That is the one pistol/SBR lower. The law does NOT state each short upper must have a legal avenue of use AT THE SAME TIME, just they must have a legal avenue of use. One pistol/SBR lower, 19 upperless rifle lowers, 20 short uppers...perfectly legal. Not necessarily recommended, but still legal. Why not recommended? Is it not black and white? If not, you see my point. This is a technical forum. We should strive to provide factual imformation and let the end user decide how they wish to proceed. Opinions should be labeled as such. The way your post was written sounded as if it was a law and not an opinion. The law is black and white. However, there are many things that may be legal to do, but not recommended. For instance, Passing a police officer on the freeway and yelling "F*ck you Pig!" and flipping the bird may be legal, but is certainly not recommended. There are other things, while not required by law, if exercised, may prevent problems before they happen. There is no legal requirement to carry copies of Form 1/4 when out and about with NFA items, but many do because having said paperwork may prevent a ride to the station in the first place if the paperwork assuages the LE as to the legality of said NFA items. So then we agree. I'm not an attorney, and didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. If it's not recommended to have non-pistol/SBR lowers with a surplus of short uppers then I think that's what I said. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 9:05:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So then we agree. I'm not an attorney, and didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. If it's not recommended to have non-pistol/SBR lowers with a surplus of short uppers then I think that's what I said. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Buy a stripped reciever. It will have to be transfered as "other". Put a pistol reciever extension on it. Now you can posess an upper with a barrel that is shorter than 16". You cannot attach the short upper to a rifle reciever until you are in possession of the tax stamp for the SBR reciever. You want to avoid any situation where you have any rifle lower without a 16"+ upper to attach to it and also be in possession of an upper with a barrel of less than 16". Not quite true. As long as you have ONE pistol/SBR lower, you can possess an many short uppers as you wish. The number of non-pistol/SBR lowers and whether they each have 16+" uppers is irrelevant. The law states that each short upper must have a legal avenue of use. That is the one pistol/SBR lower. The law does NOT state each short upper must have a legal avenue of use AT THE SAME TIME, just they must have a legal avenue of use. One pistol/SBR lower, 19 upperless rifle lowers, 20 short uppers...perfectly legal. Not necessarily recommended, but still legal. Why not recommended? Is it not black and white? If not, you see my point. This is a technical forum. We should strive to provide factual imformation and let the end user decide how they wish to proceed. Opinions should be labeled as such. The way your post was written sounded as if it was a law and not an opinion. The law is black and white. However, there are many things that may be legal to do, but not recommended. For instance, Passing a police officer on the freeway and yelling "F*ck you Pig!" and flipping the bird may be legal, but is certainly not recommended. There are other things, while not required by law, if exercised, may prevent problems before they happen. There is no legal requirement to carry copies of Form 1/4 when out and about with NFA items, but many do because having said paperwork may prevent a ride to the station in the first place if the paperwork assuages the LE as to the legality of said NFA items. So then we agree. I'm not an attorney, and didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. If it's not recommended to have non-pistol/SBR lowers with a surplus of short uppers then I think that's what I said. The issue at hand is the way you worded your response. You stated your opinion as fact, rather than qualifying it as an opinion or recommendation. Plus, you NEVER stated, while not recommended, it is, in fact legal to own multiple short uppers with only one pistol/SBR lower along with multiple upperless rifle lowers. So, someone reading your response, may incorrectly think it is not legal to own multiple short uppers with only one pistol/SBR lower along with multiple upperless rifle lowers. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 9:23:09 PM EDT
[#42]
You have driven your point well home. Now, please tell us, if the situation is perfectly legal, why is it not recommended??
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Posted: 3/21/2015 11:08:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have driven your point well home. Now, please tell us, if the situation is perfectly legal, why is it not recommended?? I didn't say "not recommended," I said "not necessarily recommended." Not necessarily recommended because everyones' situation is different. Everything locked up in a safe vs. not locked in a safe. Living alone vs. roomates/family. No visitors vs. lots of visitors. Young children vs. no/older children. pro-gun vs. anti-gun friends, family, visitors or friends of family members. Some of those situations, I may not necessarily recommend multiple short uppers with multiple upperless rifle lowers, because some may see the multiple short uppers and multiple upperless rifle lowers and make incorrect assumptions, which may, or may not result in LE contact. And while you may beat the charge, you may not beat the ride. However, I would let the end user decide, knowing what the law is, what is best for their situation. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 5:53:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't say "not recommended," I said "not necessarily recommended." Not necessarily recommended because everyones' situation is different. Everything locked up in a safe vs. not locked in a safe. Living alone vs. roomates/family. No visitors vs. lots of visitors. Young children vs. no/older children. pro-gun vs. anti-gun friends, family, visitors or friends of family members. Some of those situations, I may not necessarily recommend multiple short uppers with multiple upperless rifle lowers, because some may see the multiple short uppers and multiple upperless rifle lowers and make incorrect assumptions, which may, or may not result in LE contact. And while you may beat the charge, you may not beat the ride. However, I would let the end user decide, knowing what the law is, what is best for their situation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You have driven your point well home. Now, please tell us, if the situation is perfectly legal, why is it not recommended?? I didn't say "not recommended," I said "not necessarily recommended." Not necessarily recommended because everyones' situation is different. Everything locked up in a safe vs. not locked in a safe. Living alone vs. roomates/family. No visitors vs. lots of visitors. Young children vs. no/older children. pro-gun vs. anti-gun friends, family, visitors or friends of family members. Some of those situations, I may not necessarily recommend multiple short uppers with multiple upperless rifle lowers, because some may see the multiple short uppers and multiple upperless rifle lowers and make incorrect assumptions, which may, or may not result in LE contact. And while you may beat the charge, you may not beat the ride. However, I would let the end user decide, knowing what the law is, what is best for their situation. While you never come out and say it, what I gather from your posts is that while you tell me that what I stated is not the law it is the "safer" path to follow if avoiding entanglement with Fed/LE is the goal. I don't want the ride in the first place, so while I may have been "wrong" about a strict legal definition I prefer not to tickle the tail of the dragon. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 8:45:48 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While you never come out and say it, what I gather from your posts is that while you tell me that what I stated is not the law it is the "safer" path to follow if avoiding entanglement with Fed/LE is the goal. I don't want the ride in the first place, so while I may have been "wrong" about a strict legal definition I prefer not to tickle the tail of the dragon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You have driven your point well home. Now, please tell us, if the situation is perfectly legal, why is it not recommended?? I didn't say "not recommended," I said "not necessarily recommended." Not necessarily recommended because everyones' situation is different. Everything locked up in a safe vs. not locked in a safe. Living alone vs. roomates/family. No visitors vs. lots of visitors. Young children vs. no/older children. pro-gun vs. anti-gun friends, family, visitors or friends of family members. Some of those situations, I may not necessarily recommend multiple short uppers with multiple upperless rifle lowers, because some may see the multiple short uppers and multiple upperless rifle lowers and make incorrect assumptions, which may, or may not result in LE contact. And while you may beat the charge, you may not beat the ride. However, I would let the end user decide, knowing what the law is, what is best for their situation. While you never come out and say it, what I gather from your posts is that while you tell me that what I stated is not the law it is the "safer" path to follow if avoiding entanglement with Fed/LE is the goal. I don't want the ride in the first place, so while I may have been "wrong" about a strict legal definition I prefer not to tickle the tail of the dragon. This is my last post on this subject because this is getting ridiculous. You are obviously not understanding what the issue is. Maybe someone else will chime in. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 9:01:59 AM EDT
[#46]
For crying out loud. We are all on the same team.
If you have the legal ability to NFA. Please do so. For yourself and for gun owners everywhere, don't try and bend and shape the laws to fit your need. ETA: If the "confiscation day" ever comes, throw caution to the wind, because we will have much bigger issues to deal with. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 10:39:56 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is my last post on this subject because this is getting ridiculous. You are obviously not understanding what the issue is. Maybe someone else will chime in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You have driven your point well home. Now, please tell us, if the situation is perfectly legal, why is it not recommended?? I didn't say "not recommended," I said "not necessarily recommended." Not necessarily recommended because everyones' situation is different. Everything locked up in a safe vs. not locked in a safe. Living alone vs. roomates/family. No visitors vs. lots of visitors. Young children vs. no/older children. pro-gun vs. anti-gun friends, family, visitors or friends of family members. Some of those situations, I may not necessarily recommend multiple short uppers with multiple upperless rifle lowers, because some may see the multiple short uppers and multiple upperless rifle lowers and make incorrect assumptions, which may, or may not result in LE contact. And while you may beat the charge, you may not beat the ride. However, I would let the end user decide, knowing what the law is, what is best for their situation. While you never come out and say it, what I gather from your posts is that while you tell me that what I stated is not the law it is the "safer" path to follow if avoiding entanglement with Fed/LE is the goal. I don't want the ride in the first place, so while I may have been "wrong" about a strict legal definition I prefer not to tickle the tail of the dragon. This is my last post on this subject because this is getting ridiculous. You are obviously not understanding what the issue is. Maybe someone else will chime in. And you obviously don't understand your own circular logic. Good day. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:17:45 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For crying out loud. We are all on the same team. If you have the legal ability to NFA. Please do so. For yourself and for gun owners everywhere, don't try and bend and shape the laws to fit your need. ETA: If the "confiscation day" ever comes, throw caution to the wind, because we will have much bigger issues to deal with. This. It's a tech forum, let's not get the thread locked before OP and others get their questions asked. We've all got plenty of time to purse swing over in GD.
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Posted: 3/24/2015 12:24:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. It's a tech forum, let's not get the thread locked before OP and others get their questions asked. We've all got plenty of time to purse swing over in GD. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For crying out loud. We are all on the same team. If you have the legal ability to NFA. Please do so. For yourself and for gun owners everywhere, don't try and bend and shape the laws to fit your need. ETA: If the "confiscation day" ever comes, throw caution to the wind, because we will have much bigger issues to deal with. This. It's a tech forum, let's not get the thread locked before OP and others get their questions asked. We've all got plenty of time to purse swing over in GD. The OP bounced a long time ago.... like after the first post. I think the bottom line is if you don't have any intention to SBR, you should at least buy a $175 pistol lower from PSA or something to be safe. Owning an upper you can't use is about as as it gets IMO.
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Posted: 3/24/2015 1:01:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.....you should at least buy a $175 pistol lower from PSA or something to be safe.... Why the fuck do people keep posting this "pistol lower" nonsense?
There is no such thing as a "pistol lower". |
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