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Posted: 3/24/2015 1:21:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why the fuck do people keep posting this "pistol lower" nonsense? 
There is no such thing as a "pistol lower". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.....you should at least buy a $175 pistol lower from PSA or something to be safe.... Why the fuck do people keep posting this "pistol lower" nonsense?
There is no such thing as a "pistol lower". Because it is different than a rifle lower and it has a trigger and shit so you can put the upper on it if you want to shoot it. You ok man?
This is the DD MK18 upper on a pistol lower(not an NFA item) 
And this is the DD MK18 upper on a rifle lower (which is an NFA item) 
All of this is really ground breaking stuff... you easily could have missed it. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 1:52:00 PM EDT
[#2]
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Because it is different than a rifle lower and it has a trigger and shit so you can put the upper on it if you want to shoot it. You ok man?
This is the DD MK18 upper on a pistol lower(not an NFA item) https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/635x205/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/2/02-088-06030_mk18_pistol_l.jpg And this is the DD MK18 upper on a rifle lower (which is an NFA item) https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/635x205/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/2/02-088-17024_mk18_fde_l_1.jpg All of this is really ground breaking stuff... you easily could have missed it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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.....you should at least buy a $175 pistol lower from PSA or something to be safe.... Why the fuck do people keep posting this "pistol lower" nonsense?
There is no such thing as a "pistol lower". Because it is different than a rifle lower and it has a trigger and shit so you can put the upper on it if you want to shoot it. You ok man?
This is the DD MK18 upper on a pistol lower(not an NFA item) https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/635x205/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/2/02-088-06030_mk18_pistol_l.jpg And this is the DD MK18 upper on a rifle lower (which is an NFA item) https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/635x205/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/2/02-088-17024_mk18_fde_l_1.jpg All of this is really ground breaking stuff... you easily could have missed it. The first photo is of a PISTOL.......not a "pistol lower". The second photo is of a RIFLE......not a "rifle lower". Federal law says a firearm frame or receiver is not a handgun or long gun until it is complete. (that means a rifled barrel and either a grip or a shoulder stock) If you get a chance, try reading some firearms law before you post nonsense. You could start with the instructions to Question 18 on the Form 4473...."Type of Firearm". 
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Posted: 3/24/2015 3:10:00 PM EDT
[#3]
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The first photo is of a PISTOL.......not a "pistol lower". The second photo is of a RIFLE......not a "rifle lower". Federal law says a firearm frame or receiver is not a handgun or long gun until it is complete. (that means a rifled barrel and either a grip or a shoulder stock) If you get a chance, try reading some firearms law before you post nonsense. You could start with the instructions to Question 18 on the Form 4473...."Type of Firearm".
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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.....you should at least buy a $175 pistol lower from PSA or something to be safe.... Why the fuck do people keep posting this "pistol lower" nonsense?
There is no such thing as a "pistol lower". Because it is different than a rifle lower and it has a trigger and shit so you can put the upper on it if you want to shoot it. You ok man?
This is the DD MK18 upper on a pistol lower(not an NFA item) https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/635x205/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/2/02-088-06030_mk18_pistol_l.jpg And this is the DD MK18 upper on a rifle lower (which is an NFA item) https://danieldefense.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/635x205/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/2/02-088-17024_mk18_fde_l_1.jpg All of this is really ground breaking stuff... you easily could have missed it. The first photo is of a PISTOL.......not a "pistol lower". The second photo is of a RIFLE......not a "rifle lower". Federal law says a firearm frame or receiver is not a handgun or long gun until it is complete. (that means a rifled barrel and either a grip or a shoulder stock) If you get a chance, try reading some firearms law before you post nonsense. You could start with the instructions to Question 18 on the Form 4473...."Type of Firearm".
You are confused... You have the concept but you don't know how to apply it. A lower is defined by the way it is built... If you build it into a pistol lower it is a pistol lower. If you build it into a rifle lower it is rifle. There is a difference tho... It's so obvious it's painful to explain. A pistol lower is an ar15 lower that is set up in a pistol configuration. You don't need to be in MENSA to comprehend that. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 3:22:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Listen to the man. There is no "pistol lower". Lowers not sold as a complete pistol or a complete rifle are "other weapons".
You are confused... You have the concept but you don't know how to apply it. A lower is defined by the way it is built... If you build it into a pistol lower it is a pistol lower. If you build it into a rifle lower it is a rifle. If you decide you want your rifle to be a pistol you can make that change in the configuration as long as you are good with state law (in sc it doesn't matter). There is a difference tho... It's so obvious it's painful to explain. A pistol lower is an ar15 lower that is set up in a pistol configuration. You don't need to be in MENSA to comprehend that.
You cannot make a rifle into a pistol. https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 3:41:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Listen to the man. There is no "pistol lower". Lowers not sold as a complete pistol or a complete rifle are "other weapons". You cannot make a rifle into a pistol. https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Listen to the man. There is no "pistol lower". Lowers not sold as a complete pistol or a complete rifle are "other weapons". You are confused... You have the concept but you don't know how to apply it. A lower is defined by the way it is built... If you build it into a pistol lower it is a pistol lower. If you build it into a rifle lower it is a rifle. If you decide you want your rifle to be a pistol you can make that change in the configuration as long as you are good with state law (in sc it doesn't matter). There is a difference tho... It's so obvious it's painful to explain. A pistol lower is an ar15 lower that is set up in a pistol configuration. You don't need to be in MENSA to comprehend that.
You cannot make a rifle into a pistol. https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand. Yea that part was wrong... Deleted it from original post. It can go back to a pistol if it were originally in the pistol form but if it was first built as a rifle it can't. This is the explanation I got from my 07/02 friend "Stripped is always other (receiver) unless it was built into a pistol or rifle, then it's a pistol or rifle. Once is a rifle or pistol is always a rifle or pistol. If you took a receiver and made it into a pistol you can turn it into a sbr but you can't turn a pistol into a rifle but you can dress the pistol as a rifle. If the pistol is turned into a sbr and you take it off the registry it reverts to pistol again even though it had a stock. You can build up or revert back but not regress." Once you built it into a pistol... The lower is then considered a pistol regardless if the upper is attached or not. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 3:47:12 PM EDT
[#6]
This thread is getting tired.
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Posted: 3/24/2015 4:48:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are confused... You have the concept but you don't know how to apply it. A lower is defined by the way it is built... Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are confused... You have the concept but you don't know how to apply it. A lower is defined by the way it is built... Absolute horseshit. It's obvious you haven't read a shred of ATF regulation, much less the instructions on the Form 4473. A lower is a lower is a lower. It is the same as any other firearm frame or receiver UNTIL it is built into a long gun or handgun. If you build it into a pistol lower it is a pistol lower. If you build it into a rifle lower it is rifle. Again, horseshit. A lower, NO MATTER what you intend to build it into, is an Other Firearm, neither handgun or long gun. If you take a stripped lower, attach a pistol style buffer tube, pistol grip and install all the parts........you still have an Other Firearm. If you take a stripped lower, attach a shoulder stock, pistol grip and install all the parts........you still have an Other Firearm. Once you complete the firearm by attaching a barrel, you'll have: -a pistol -an other firearm -an SBR -a shotgun -a rifle -an AOW Which of those it becomes depends on whether the barrel is rifled or smoothbore, the barrel length and the overall length. There is a difference tho... It's so obvious it's painful to explain. A pistol lower is an ar15 lower that is set up in a pistol configuration. You don't need to be in MENSA to comprehend that. It just takes an understanding of the definitions as proscribed by ATF regulations.....and a bit of common sense.
Where in ATF regs do you think they mention "pistol lower" or rifle lower? We'll wait. 
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Posted: 3/24/2015 5:39:58 PM EDT
[#8]
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Absolute horseshit. It's obvious you haven't read a shred of ATF regulation, much less the instructions on the Form 4473. A lower is a lower is a lower. It is the same as any other firearm frame or receiver UNTIL it is built into a long gun or handgun. Again, horseshit. A lower, NO MATTER what you intend to build it into, is an Other Firearm, neither handgun or long gun. If you take a stripped lower, attach a pistol style buffer tube, pistol grip and install all the parts........you still have an Other Firearm. If you take a stripped lower, attach a shoulder stock, pistol grip and install all the parts........you still have an Other Firearm. Once you complete the firearm by attaching a barrel, you'll have: -a pistol -an other firearm -an SBR -a shotgun -a rifle -an AOW Which of those it becomes depends on whether the barrel is rifled or smoothbore, the barrel length and the overall length. It just takes an understanding of the definitions as proscribed by ATF regulations.....and a bit of common sense.
Where in ATF regs do you think they mention "pistol lower" or rifle lower? We'll wait.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are confused... You have the concept but you don't know how to apply it. A lower is defined by the way it is built... Absolute horseshit. It's obvious you haven't read a shred of ATF regulation, much less the instructions on the Form 4473. A lower is a lower is a lower. It is the same as any other firearm frame or receiver UNTIL it is built into a long gun or handgun. If you build it into a pistol lower it is a pistol lower. If you build it into a rifle lower it is rifle. Again, horseshit. A lower, NO MATTER what you intend to build it into, is an Other Firearm, neither handgun or long gun. If you take a stripped lower, attach a pistol style buffer tube, pistol grip and install all the parts........you still have an Other Firearm. If you take a stripped lower, attach a shoulder stock, pistol grip and install all the parts........you still have an Other Firearm. Once you complete the firearm by attaching a barrel, you'll have: -a pistol -an other firearm -an SBR -a shotgun -a rifle -an AOW Which of those it becomes depends on whether the barrel is rifled or smoothbore, the barrel length and the overall length. There is a difference tho... It's so obvious it's painful to explain. A pistol lower is an ar15 lower that is set up in a pistol configuration. You don't need to be in MENSA to comprehend that. It just takes an understanding of the definitions as proscribed by ATF regulations.....and a bit of common sense.
Where in ATF regs do you think they mention "pistol lower" or rifle lower? We'll wait.
So if it is not classified as a pistol or a rifle then what's the problem with going from a rifle configuration (after adding a stock and adding an upper) to a pistol? Your arguing semantics and it's kinda gay. I don't care if you mark other on the ATF form or if pistol lower is mentioned by the ATF regulations, an AR is classified as a pistol or a rifle based mainly on whether or not it has a stock... Which is on the lower. I was just trying to say if u buy a 10.5" upper, you might as well buy an other firearm and not put a stock on it and put that 10.5" upper on it so u can have a pistol you can use (although once you take off the upper it is the an other firearm but for some reason there are regulations about how you can reconfigure it once it has been made one way or the other) but I obviously offended the terminology masters
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Posted: 3/24/2015 5:43:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Unsubscribing.
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Posted: 3/24/2015 6:00:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if it is not classified as a pistol or a rifle then what's the problem with going from a rifle configuration (after adding a stock and adding an upper) to a pistol? Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if it is not classified as a pistol or a rifle then what's the problem with going from a rifle configuration (after adding a stock and adding an upper) to a pistol? If you build your AR lower into a rifle first, it cannot be reconfigured into a pistol. Your arguing semantics and it's kinda gay. All ATF regulations are "kinda gay". I don't care if you mark other on the ATF form or if pistol lower is mentioned by the ATF regulations You should.
an AR is classified as a pistol or a rifle based mainly on whether or not it has a stock... Which is on the lower. Again, you need to read you some ATF regulations.......'cause that isn't the definition of rifle or pistol. A complete AR lower with a buttstock is still an Other Firearm. It is perfectly legal to remove the buttstock, install an AR pistol tube and finish the build with a barreled upper.............and you have a PISTOL. If you took that complete AR lower with a buttstock and attach a 16" bbl with an OAL of at least 26".....you have a rifle. You could not reconfigure into a pistol. ....... but for some reason there are regulations about how you can reconfigure it once it has been made one way or the other) but I obviously offended the terminology masters Getting the terminology correct is pretty damn important.
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Posted: 3/24/2015 6:16:59 PM EDT
[#11]
I have to ask, and I am trying not to be GD here. Since the BATF is serious about the 'once built as a rifle it can't ever be a pistol' rule, when are they going to mandate that the buffer tube be permanently attached to the lower? i.e. force designation of the lower as rifle or pistol and be so marked when manufactured.
Yes, I understand rules are rules and the BATF is very serious about violation of any firearms rules. But with the modularity of the AR15 platform it is stupidly simple for someone to get into serious trouble with .gov by building something that is club fed type illegal from parts that are all perfectly legal to own and use. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 6:17:13 PM EDT
[#12]
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This thread is getting tired. It's becoming the bastard child of derp and dildos. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 6:19:30 PM EDT
[#13]
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Your arguing semantics and it's kinda gay Your semantics is going to get you assbanged in federal prison. Are you not understanding what people are telling you? |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 6:33:19 PM EDT
[#14]
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I have to ask, and I am trying not to be GD here. Since the BATF is serious about the 'once built as a rifle it can't ever be a pistol' rule, Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have to ask, and I am trying not to be GD here. Since the BATF is serious about the 'once built as a rifle it can't ever be a pistol' rule, Where have you been the last three and a half years?
https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf It took twenty years from the Thompson Center decision until ATF changed the regulation. Old- "Once a rifle, always a rifle" Current- First a rifle, always a rifle" (meaning you can build an AR pistol first, configure it to a rifle, and later back to pistol) when are they going to mandate that the buffer tube be permanently attached to the lower? i.e. force designation of the lower as rifle or pistol and be so marked when manufactured. A permanently attached buffer tube will not change anything, just like stamping PISTOL, Safe/Semi/Auto or "For Law Enforcement Us Only" means absolutely nothing. If a firearm frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. Yes, I understand rules are rules and the BATF is very serious about violation of any firearms rules. But with the modularity of the AR15 platform it is stupidly simple for someone to get into serious trouble with .gov by building something that is club fed type illegal from parts that are all perfectly legal to own and use. Which is the reason we should be familiar with those rules. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 9:19:50 PM EDT
[#15]
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Your semantics is going to get you assbanged in federal prison. Are you not understanding what people are telling you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Your arguing semantics and it's kinda gay Your semantics is going to get you assbanged in federal prison. Are you not understanding what people are telling you? I'm getting out of this thread while I'm ahead 
I understand what they are saying... It was very interesting and informative. thanks to all |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 7:57:46 PM EDT
[#16]
This lower does not have a removable stock, so it could only built into a rifle. But guess what! It is still transferred as "other."
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Posted: 3/26/2015 12:18:49 AM EDT
[#17]
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I'm getting out of this thread while I'm ahead
I understand what they are saying... It was very interesting and informative. thanks to all Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Your arguing semantics and it's kinda gay Your semantics is going to get you assbanged in federal prison. Are you not understanding what people are telling you? I'm getting out of this thread while I'm ahead
I understand what they are saying... It was very interesting and informative. thanks to all You were never ahead, but if thinking that makes you feel better.... |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 12:36:24 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the only way for any firearm frame or receiver to be transferred.......it's not a choice to "have it transferred as an other". Wrong. Very wrong.  A frame, receiver or lower does not have to be built to "define it's legal qualification"......its a firearm. You need to read you some regs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You can buy a stripped lower (aluminum or plastic) for $40 to $50 dollars, have it transferred as an other on the 4473... That's the only way for any firearm frame or receiver to be transferred.......it's not a choice to "have it transferred as an other". Quoted: ...How a lower is marked on a 4473 means nothing. Wrong. Very wrong. How a lower is first built defines its' legal qualification. A frame, receiver or lower does not have to be built to "define it's legal qualification"......its a firearm. You need to read you some regs. If a lower has never had a stock installed it is not a rifle, regardless of barrel length. If a lower has never had a barrel installed, it is simply a firearm. What the 4473 says means dick-all unless the configuration can be verified as something other than a stripped lower (by the manufacturer). If you buy a stripped lower marked erroneously as a rifle or pistol on the 4473, the manufacturer can verify the configuration, or lack thereof, as they are required to keep records for tax purposes (complete rifles and pistols are subject to 11% federal excise tax). |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 11:49:01 AM EDT
[#19]
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You were never ahead, but if thinking that makes you feel better.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Your arguing semantics and it's kinda gay Your semantics is going to get you assbanged in federal prison. Are you not understanding what people are telling you? I'm getting out of this thread while I'm ahead
I understand what they are saying... It was very interesting and informative. thanks to all You were never ahead, but if thinking that makes you feel better....  Thanks... i didn't notice until you said something
And you were never very good at understanding context, sarcasm, and probably pragmatics in general . By the way, I never claimed that the lower was transferred as a rifle or pistol. I was just saying once you make it into a pistol it is a pistol. You can then put it in a rifle configuration but it is still a pistol... It can then be returned to a pistol configuration. So basically once you make it into a pistol for its original conformation, that AR is a pistol even if that isn't what you marked on the paperwork. Could be wrong but this is what I gathered from my conversation with a 07/02 manufacturer who I assumed knew the law. In his exact words:
"The pistol as a rifle rule blows people's minds. You can turn an AR pistol into what appears to be a rifle but it's still a pistol" |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 12:53:07 PM EDT
[#20]
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"The pistol as a rifle rule blows people's minds. You can turn an AR pistol into what appears to be a rifle but it's still a pistol" It blows peoples minds because not one bit of that statement above is correct. You should stop taking firearms advice from your 07 friend and read this: https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 1:15:01 PM EDT
[#21]
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It blows peoples minds because not one bit of that statement above is correct. You should stop taking firearms advice from your 07 friend and read this: https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"The pistol as a rifle rule blows people's minds. You can turn an AR pistol into what appears to be a rifle but it's still a pistol" It blows peoples minds because not one bit of that statement above is correct. You should stop taking firearms advice from your 07 friend and read this: https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf Wouldn't say this is the first time i've gotten bad info- ... not very exciting reading but definitely makes sense. I'm just going to go ahead and plan on not fucking with rifle/pistol re-configurations.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 1:23:02 PM EDT
[#22]
In fairness, the law is pretty messed up. The exact same firearm, in the exact same configuration, with the exact same paperwork history, can be either perfectly legal or a major federal felony. The law is straightforward enough, but its application (particularly to ARs) is utterly nonsensical. Of course, the 07/02 should have known better.
@thornejc, no, the rule is not "once a pistol, always a pistol." The rule, as has already been posted in this thread, is "first a rifle, always a rifle." If the receiver was first assembled into a rifle (i.e., buttstock and barrel), and then changed into a pistol configuration, the resulting firearm is "made from a rifle", and thus an SBR if barrel length < 16" or OAL < 26". If it was first assembled into a pistol (i.e., barrel but no buttstock), then reconfigured as a rifle (barrel and buttstock), the resulting firearm is a rifle. If it's then re-reconfigured as a pistol, the resulting firearm is not "made from a rifle," and can therefore have a <16" barrel without NFA registration. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 2:19:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In fairness, the law is pretty messed up. The exact same firearm, in the exact same configuration, with the exact same paperwork history, can be either perfectly legal or a major federal felony. The law is straightforward enough, but its application (particularly to ARs) is utterly nonsensical..... I'm sure it made perfect sense in 1934.
Folks that get wound up over ATF determination letters and rulings need to understand the state of firearms development in 1934. The idea of a modular firearm wasn't even on the radar. Ditto on the GCA '68. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 2:23:03 PM EDT
[#24]
My prediction for this thread:
Two more pages of derp, mixed in with logic with fact by a few well informed individuals, interlaced with dildos and half-truth, culminating in a lock.
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Posted: 3/27/2015 2:30:28 AM EDT
[#25]
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While there's no such thing as "constructive intent", you don't want to be in a situation where the only thing you can build is an unregistered SBR. If you had another registered lower, you're fine. A handguard, a stripped upper, a bolt...you can use that for anything. The short barrel? Probably can't come up with a proper use...unless you're going to build it into a pistol first. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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While I'm waiting for my stamp to come back can I start to collect the necessary parts for my upper. Meaning the barrel, the unassembled upper, hand guard, etc. or would this be considered constructive intent? While there's no such thing as "constructive intent", you don't want to be in a situation where the only thing you can build is an unregistered SBR. If you had another registered lower, you're fine. A handguard, a stripped upper, a bolt...you can use that for anything. The short barrel? Probably can't come up with a proper use...unless you're going to build it into a pistol first. So have a pistol tube near by.
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Posted: 3/27/2015 3:00:13 AM EDT
[#26]
Wow, this spiraled into a cesspool of bullshit right quick. OP JUST SBR IT. AR pistols are fuckin dumb. They got "kinda cool" for a second when the sig brace came out, and now everyone is butthurt ATF caught on and pulled the plug on shouldering it.
Ps. If you've ever filled out. 4473 and bought a gun. ATF knows you're a gun owner, toss the tin hats and fork over the $200. Besides its only $60ish dollars more than that stupid brace. |
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Posted: 3/27/2015 3:00:39 AM EDT
[#27]
Delete, dbl post
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