Finally going to take the plunge and purchase an M-16.  Budget 15-22K

Several individuals have advised to go with a dedicated lower vs an DIAS or LL (reliability when shooting).

Unless I need the money the plan is to hand it down to the kids. So its sort of an investment. I will likely not sell it as its a bucket list item.

I doubt the lower will appreciate at 6% each year; but appreciation is not really the intent, just a side benefit.

I do plan to shoot this gun v.s. a wall hanger.

Question from a long term point of view: is it better to go with a Colt M-16 factory lower or SP1 converted in terms of investment?   Some have advised on getting a low cost lower 15K (non colt) if its going to be a shooter.

Any thoughts?

I had a factory registered Colt M16. Why not the DIAS?? I probably would go with that

DIAS was my first choice; however shop owner was indicating they were more prone to stoppages (reliability) vs a dedicated lower.

The attractive part of a DIAS is they run in any low shelf lower so you could take advantage of the new flared mag wells and updates...etc.

And the Glock system AR15 as well.

If it was me I would do the DIAS.

I doubt that you'll find a DIAS within your budget.  I believe that they are now $25K or more.  Even a Colt M16 at $22K may be tough to find these days.

Best of luck.

I think I am getting the point.  In the future the most desirable will probably be the DIAS.

I remember when I was in high school and DIAS were going for like 13K.....Uzi's 6-7K...MAC-11s 2-3K. Im sure a few around here remember them at $200.00 or less.

Its pretty rare I see the DIAS coming up for sale now days.

DIAS will be very hard to find and will run you 25-32K. DIAS are much more versatile and nearly unbreakable. They will continue to demand a high value and there are less of these. Most people in the know would take a DIAS over a RR given the choice.

Colt M16a1 will run you close to 25k theses days. A 614 might be doable for 22k. If you have the funds I say go for it. You can always get your money back out of it and then some. Can't loose.

Good luck with your purchase and remember there is no time like the present.

So a lot of people will tell you don't buy this, don't buy that.... Frankly, I don't think there is a bad MG investment. Certainly some platforms don't increase as much as others over time, but they all go up. The M16 platform goes up in value in a slinky fashion. The lower end come up closer to the higher end, causing the higher end to increase more which in turn pulls the lower end models up to the higher end, and so on. In the end, get something you want to shoot. If you are in this for investment, there are better commodities than MGs. The old saying is "you can't spend too much on a machine gun, you can only buy too early." If you want an M16, you can get a conversion, send it to M60Joe and have it brought into spec, send it to Victor@USAnodizing, and you'll have a damn near perfect M16 ready for the next 30 years - and with plenty of money leftover for uppers and ammo.

RDIAS are very hard to find and are becoming expensive fast. But if you have a lot of AR15s nice to have the ability to drop it in to each gun, just dont loos the thing as its a small part.

RLL is the cheapest options at the moment but has the draw backs of not being able to run 22 LR conversions and as far as i know you cant run any fancy after market triggers like a Geissele 2 stage, your stuck with the mil-spec trigger, for me this alone is a deal breaker, i love full auto but a nice two-stage trigger for semi is important to me. Also, you have to use a SP1 bolt carrier which is different than the M16 or AR15 BCG and is hard to find and expensive. The price and availability of RLL is also hard to predict, you can go months without seeing them for sale and then all of the sudden several show up and they are cheap but no way to predict it. From what ive read there are no more than a couple hundred of them registered so they are rather rare.

Given your budget the only colt you will likely be able to get would be a SP1 conversion. They are in spec, reliable and tend not to hold the "Collectible" value that the higher end colts with the M16 roll marks have. I personally dont like the look of the slab side. Most also have the larger front pins which is kind of annoying but M60joe and other gun smiths can turn it into a small pin.

Personally given your requirements I would recommend a Non-colt RR. Its in your price range, offers more than a RLL and you can roll around in the mud and really enjoy shooting it without worrying about hurting the value. With that being said many of the off brand lowers are not in spec, but thats nothing a trip to a gunsmith cant fix. I sent my Oly M16 to USAnodizing, they did a bunch of work to it and when they were finished they anodized it. Its 30+ years old but literally looks brand new.

When you go to buy make sure you have cash in hand (or in bank) as good deals go fast and telling the seller "ill take it, just give me 2-3 weeks to sell my ATV and then ill send you the check" doesnt work. Most expect full payment within a few days. FWIW you can find better deals in personal sales and on places like sturm and subguns but be careful there are a lot of scammers out there and handing $15-22k over to a random stranger who will then hold onto your MG for 6-12 months is kind of sketchy. I personally paid a little bit extra and bought from a dealer, it was worth the piece of mind for me. Just remember todays bad deal is tomorrows steal. I bought mine just a few years ago and when i told people what i paid they all said it was not a good deal, yet here we are today and the price i paid is now thousands below the lowest prices ive seen RR listed for recently.

And as a disclaimer i wouldnt recommend going all in on buying a MG, while it can be looked at as an investment and they certainly have increased in value over the last few years, you must keep in mind that they are a high risk invesmtnet. MGs could def go WAY up in value in the future but then again laws could change and over night they basically go to zero. An M16 is really only worth about $50 more than a AR15, its just a couple extra parts. The other $15k is for the piece of paper that says you can legally own this without being thrown in jail for 10 years and there are very small number of guns that can have those pieces of paper. I would only buy a MG with money you can afford to loose.

Transferable M16 machine guns and estimated market values:
RLL $15-18k
RDIAS $27-32k
RR Non-Colt Cast AR15 Conversion $17-19k
RR Non-Colt AR15 Conversion $18-20k
RR Colt AR15 SP1 Conversion $18-20k
RR Colt AR15 614 $22-24k
RR Colt M16 $22-24k
RR Colt M16A1 $24-28k
RR Colt M16A2 $28-33k
RR Colt M16A2 Commando $33-38k (Marked "Auto" instead of "Burst")


Websites to watch for good deals on machine guns:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com
http://www.atfmachinegun.com
http://www.autoweapons.com
http://www.impactguns.com
http://www.subguns.com
http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com
http://www.davidspiwak.com
http://dealernfa.com
http://www.gunbroker.com
http://www.nfasales.com
http://www.classiiidealers.com/
http://www.westernfirearms.com/
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/class-iii-full-auto/
http://www.urban-armory.com/
http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_7/118_NFA_Firearms_andamp__Parts.html

Website that tracks machine gun values:
http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/

Good luck, keep us updated and be sure to post pictures when you finally decide on one!

Ah, another entrant into the NFA MG community. Once you enter, you will never look at a semi auto AR the same way. Semi auto ARs are...neutered and boring.

Very true.

Topic Moved

Buy a Colt 614, should be able to find one 20-22k.  I had a DIAS and sold it (worked great but was a kind of a kludge) I think the 614 is the sleeper value in a Colt factory machine-gun.

I wouldn't buy one.  You could find out your multi thousand dollar purchase needs to go to the metal shredder in a year's time.

Tell us more about 614 compare to the SP1 and Sendra, etc.

True, or maybe he turns a $20,000 investment into $200,000 by time he passes it onto his kids.

Crazy right? 10x the value!

Maybe some of the older folks can grace us with a story of their $200 MG they bought in the 1980s that is now worth $20,000+. Thats 100x value.



Colt AR15
Model 614
Marked "Safe, Semi, Auto"
I believe it is a factory machine gun and is identical the M16 / M16A1 but just carries a different roll mark. Unlike other Colt AR15s such as the SP1 which were Semi-autos and converted to full auto later and are missing the fence on the right side of the gun.

Their value is a bit under M16 and M16A1 but not by much.

Here is an example of one.
http://dealernfa.com/shop/colt-ar15-m16-model-614-405589/

The earliest 15000 or so AR15s predated the adoption of the M16 designation so were also just marked AR15, though they, too are factory original machineguns.  Some were slab side, and others had the partial fence.

See this thread for some pics of a partial-fence AR-15 marked factory MG. https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=501463

As others have said I wouldn't buy one unless you can afford to lose it.  M16 blow ups do happen, regardless of what others say or think.   Laws change.

Buying one is like buying company stock the CEO told you too, sure it goes up but even better when YOU buy one and help his investment.

That said I did make my first purchase last month, an MP5.  On the fence about an M16/RDIAS.

Yep, I have had to send my multi thousand dollar purchase to the metal shredder several times in my life.

1978 Blazer - $6K
1984 Bronco - $10K
1992 F250 - $24K
1999 Tahoe - $35K
2004 Avalanche - $34K

Oh wait, this is the machine gun forum, not the auto forum.

Welcome to the club!

As the owner of both 2 RDIASs and a factory ANIB Colt M16 A1 Carbine, I might be able to help you somewhat.

All of them will be great investments.  Unless laws change, which I doubt they will, there is no reason that an M16 won't be $100,000 one day.  Seriously, we don't even flinch at $25,000 now.  Think about it.

Do you want to shoot the gun, and enjoy it a lot?  If so, then I would recommend a RDIAS. It is the best M16 hands down in my opinion.  The pricing of them has risen along side registered receivers, and it is nice to not have to worry at all about ruining one.  You can have the most terrible failure with your M16, and the RDIAS will be fine.  If the trip or spring or pin wears out you can replace them.  If the body breaks, it can always be repaired no matter what.  There are major pluses to owning one if you want actually enjoy the M16.  I shoot mine often in all sorts of hosts.  You can beat the crap out of your gun and not worry about it, because it's just a $100 lower.  If you get a properly made one, there is no such thing as timing issues, etc. Drop in and go with all SP1 spec lowers, and all uppers.  RDIASs are now over your budget though.  Someone here just paid $32,000 for one.

For more of a wall hanger, nothing beats a Colt M16.  It will be at the very top of your budget if not a hair more though.  They are the real deal "COLT M16!!!".  What could be better than that right?!   I also feel that since they are Colts and the real deal, that will always put them on top most of the time.  These will work with all uppers as long as the upper is correct.  If the upper doesn't work with a Colt M16 lower, then the upper is out of spec.  The problem with them is that you can't beat on them and fully roughly enjoy them in courses and classes.  You obviously don't want to mess it up and the original finish.  For this reason, I never shoot mine.  Having the RDIASs makes this possible for me, but it still is lame, but I don't want to take the risk.  It looks good on the wall though ;)

For a cheaper route, a non Colt registered receiver is just fine.  They will also always go up in value.  They will just always be under what Colts are.  With that said you can enjoy them a bit more.  If you bang them up, you can always recoat them because the original finish does not matter on them at all.  Of course just like the Colt lowers if you have a kaboom or something bad like that, you may not be able to repair it, and if you can, it could be very expensive.  These also can be out of spec so the money you save when buying them may partially be re-spent getting the lower in spec.  That sucks, but at $10,000 cheaper than a RDIAS, it's a great option.

In the end the decision is yours, and either route you take, you will have a lot of fun, and join a very small group of people in the world!  Your kids will be very lucky as well!  Enjoy the hunt!

Shit, when I was in high school RDIASs were $1000, and that doesn't even feel that long ago.  If only I knew then what I know now I probably could have convinced my dad to buy a couple.  Oh well.  Hind sight is 20/20.  He didn't even know you could buy machine guns until 2012 when I started buying one after another after another after another.  Now he's kicking himself for not buying them in the late 60s and early 70s.  He could have  At least he gets to enjoy mine!

All of the advice above is great.

Buy what you think you can afford.

Don't think of it as an investment if you don't plan to sell it.  It is an expense.  Think of it as the expensive toy that it is.  However, unlike an expensive car or motorcycle toy, the MG will most likely appreciate in value, so IMO that makes it a more justifiable expense.

Converted SP1 would be my last choice.  It was the first M16 I ever got, and was a stupid hassle.  Of course, you could always have M60Joe weld up that large front hole and the hassle would be gone.

No-name conversion or Colt 613/614 would be great choices as shooters.

RDIAS is the holy grail, in the modern context of all that is tacticool.  Before the sunsetting of the AWB in '04, this was not the case.  But the AR technology market has gone wild, so embrace it.  I would not shy away from an aluminum RDIAS if the price was right.

If you can afford it, then a RR and a RDIAS together would be great.  You can run the RR with the AM15 and open-bolt FCG, and then go wild with the RDIAS.  That's what I have done.  I sold all of my other MGs to get that RDIAS and now can do it all with both a RR and a RDIAS.

Assuming you can locate the RDIAS after such a terrible failure, I'm sure it will be fine!  

I'd be more worried about finding all 10 of my fingers after a failure so bad the DIAS was discharged from the receiver.

.....

LOL, very true!
If you couldn't locate the DIAS, then you're probably dead already.

Young Manufactering makes new LL compatible carriers.   No need to over pay for a SP1 carrier.  YM gear is top quiality.

+1 I've their carriers and quality is just amazing!

I chose the real deal Colt M16, I don't regret it one bit.  Factory machine gun, civilian owned....love it.

Thanks everyone for the info.

Got plenty of title 1 firearms and I've been thinking about buying a MG since I was 13.

Regarding the cost - its a bucket list item. Gotta pay to play. Law changes or I end up with 30K in scrap that's just the nature of the beast. YOLO......30K loss would hurt tho...I'm no Warren Buffet.

Think I am going to look around to a DIAS but I'm not opposed to a nice registered receiver. It would be fun to use the DIAS in my quarter circle 10 lower.

Have to check out a few shops in the VA maybe I can see it in person before I buy...errr,,,,sales tax.

Yes sales tax for a in state purchase, but it would save you a few months wait since it only requires 1 stamp.

I don't know about VA, but Michigan requires that you report and pay sales ("use") tax on all out-of-state purchases over $1000.

Your chances of finding one local is slim to none.  I have owned 4 different ones since 2012 (2 now), and have helped friends find 5 others.  Best way to find one is to post a WTB ad on Sturmgewehr.  I've gotten and found half of them that way. Ended up almost getting another one off Sturm locally years ago, but met the guy, we became friends, and now I own his M60 and HK sear.  Funny how that works right? haha. Enjoy the hunt!  And PLEASE feel free to contact me in you have any questions.  I'm not a RDIAS God or anything, but for modern times I have handled and owned quite a few.

RDIAS GOD!

i chose to buy machine guns that were born as machine guns....so i would get a M16a1 or a Ar15 model 614 in your price range.......i bought a M16a2 and i havent seen any sell for over $28k in a while....doesnt seem like any M16's are selling for over $25k.......market seems odd right now.....i believe Spiwak had a M16a1 NIB for $25k(ish) and it sat for months......i see $15-20k M16's selling well.....your in a price range everyone seems to be in....

get a gun that was a machine gun from day 1....not a pieced together gun.......i think you will find a 614

You will never go wrong with or lose money on a Colt!

Wow, I did the EXACT same thing.  Same story word for word, but I bought mine 10 years and 10K later ;-)

Holy SH!T, the M16A1 has gone up $1000 per year since 1994!

When you say you stripped your lower down to the bare receiver, did you also punch the bolt catch and trigger guard pins out?  Can't see the bolt catch pin, but the trigger guard pin and the area around it looks unblemished; a professional job if you did.

I hear ya, especially regarding the ears that house the trigger guard roll pin.  Contrary to what many believe/practice, that pin is actually intended to be installed using an arbor press, not a punch.  However, as you probably already know, Little Crow Gunworks makes a trigger guard roll pin pusher that works rather well in lieu of a proper press.

I own 3 M16's and would not take a million for any of them, I love my FA guns, don't shoot them often, they share space with my AK's and my Uzi's in the safe, they normally make an appearance on the 4th of July, but I did have them out on Monday and burned a bunch of ammo through each one of them.

That said, if you want a true FA, find a M16A1 and enjoy it for everything it is, you will never be sorry, the simplicity of the platform is amazing and they are a jarring joy to shoot.

I currently own 7 FA guns and now I am looking for a BAR to add to the mix, they are expensive but they are well worth it.

You will love your BAR when you get it.  It's a machine gun that I didn't know I wanted until it finally showed up.  Love that thing!

Tony, your M16 is looking very nice!  Mine ALMOST looks that good.  It's a factory carbine, and I love that thing!

Tag

Amphibian, your setup really is impressive.  Do you have a .22/DIAS Setup?