Sorry, thought that I was in Suppressor forum. I need another cup of coffee ....  too early


Does the Noveske Switchblock....

....reduce perceived sound to the shooter when firing suppressed in the "OFF" position?



....eliminate the need to play with buffer weights, springs, etc. to achieve desired reliability, carrier speed, and recoil impulse when firing suppressed in the "SUPPRESSED" position?
    With the gas choked down, it seems like firing suppressed would be much like firing that same weapon without a suppressor, as far as carrier speed and recoil impulse go. Correct?



.... reduce the amount of gas in the shooter's face when firing suppressed in the "SUPPRESSED" position? (no brainer, but I have to ask for the benefit of others)



.... reduce the amount of carbon/fowling build up in/on BCG when firing suppressed in the "SUPPRESSED" position? (no brainer, but I have to ask for the benefit of others)




I am doing a build with a non-clamp Switchblock over the next few days, but will not have a can avaialble for months. Save me the suspense and please help me with these inquiries.

Any help/experience appreciated

You will be happy, the claims made and questions stated all have affirmative answers.



I use an AAC SPR-M4 on an 18" rifle gas AR, the sound when fired in the "off position" is extremely less percieved to the shooter.  This is because the action does not cycle.  I am sure you will also notice that your brass is cleaner and easier to find!



The elimination of the need to play with buffer weights is more  aquestion of how anal you are about such issues, but what you seem to be asking is does the weapon remain balanced in performance; Answer YES.



I also have a PRI gasbuster installed on my rifle, but have not had an issue with this, there is less gas than without a switchblock, therefore there is less in your face.



The switchblock will reduce the amount of fouling that would occur if firing suppressed without it.  However this does not mean that fouling is removed or eliminated.



 

I appreciate te reply. I am working on a build that is somewhat complicated. I am using a non-clamp Switchblock on a 11.5" Centurion Arms LW CHF barrel with a TROY 11" Alpha with built in sight. I am having to clearance the rail behind the sight to allow room for and access to the SB. I may even end up having to take the front of the rail back about 3/16"'to allow access to the QD system on a M4-2000. I need a little more cash before I can buy the can and was just trying to get an idea of whether all of this effort will yield the results that I anticipate. I'm still awaiting the approval of the Form 4 for my ar15.com billet SBR lower, so I have a little time. I have another SBR lower to use in the meantime, but ut isn't anywhere near as nice as the arfcom unit. I will also be using a PRI GB CH and Spike's NiB BCG. I believe I have all if my bases covered and can't wait to run this build in 3 Gun.
A little unorthodox, I know, but I'm usually an unorthodox thinker

You will need to access the switchblock with the supplied tool to change it's various position(s) ... setting(s)



It is not easy to move it after a large number of rounds have been fired because of internal carbon buildup I assume.  So you will use the tool and break it free every so often.  I think that you will need to have the switchblock exposed as you see in the picture of my rifle for that purpose.



Good luck

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After shooting my suppressed standard uppers and the switchblock I sold the non switchblock uppers. I will always use switchblocks with my Suppressors.

I just did a mock-up tonight. I need to disassemble it, drill the new barrel for the GB pin, and touch up a couple of spots where opened up the rail to allow access. Getting the gas tube back in was a PITA. I'm going to have to cut the front of the rail back about 1/4" to run a can. Looks pretty slick. I'll try to get a few pics before I tear it back down.

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I test fired the upper and it is much quieter to the user even with no can. The weapon would not eject on the suppressed setting. Ran great on the unsuppressed setting. Great product! +1 for the Noveske Switchblock

What others above have said.

I love mine.  I have a 12.5 inch switchblock and it has far less blowback than my 16 inch DI uppers and the piston uppers I've fired.  I love it and it certainly lived up to the hype.

Great work.  I think some sort of adjustable gas block is necessary with .223.  My 308 is also much nicer to shoot suppressed with an adjustable block.

Thank you. It is hard to just want to take a brand new rail and cut on it, but I want what I want and I'm meticulous and stubborn enough to pull it off. It was even harder to buy that barrel just to get the pin on Switchblock I still have to drill the barrel for the GB pin and do a little touch up here and there where I cut the rail. It was a little off of the beaten path, but I like it that way. Now to hustle up some money for a M4-2000 and Brakeout

ETA: If my calculations are correct, I will have to cut the front of the rail back about 1/4" to be able to mount the can. If I only had a lathe.... it would go a lot faster.

I have two rifles with them; a 14.5 Carbine and a 16" Middy. I run an AAC M42K on both rifles.

Switch block has 3 setting (as you probably know) “Open” “Off” and “Suppressed”. The block is rotated my pushing a small detent and then rotating to the next setting. This is easy to do but a little tough with gloves on. Note here: Don’t try it when the guns hot, ouch! ask me how I found that out! Finnish and machine work on the block is first rate. The Factory installed blocks are mounted to the barrels via one taper pin; retro fit blocks are done with two set screws. I have both types, my 16� is the set screw type.

Use Non-suppressed: I’ve run apx 3500 rounds with my Noveske 14.5 conditions ranging from Rifle Class, outdoor shooting, outdoor drills in the rain and plinking; never a frailer of any sort. Vast majority of that being XM193 (Both Privi and Federal), followed by Privi 75 grn Match ammo, 77 grn Black Hills Blue box and a small amount of 75 grn 5.56 Tap. Unsuppressed the rifle runs just like any other gas system. My 16" BCM Middy has a bought 2k, a few teething problems early traced back to bad primers.

Use Gas turned Off: I’ve done this a few times mostly farting around at the range. You get some funny looks from other guys who are desperate to help you trouble shoot a single shot AR. I did this mostly to see if there was a POI change with the gas off. I could not detect one. With the gas off you have a single shot rifle, I did not find any problems charging with the charging handle but I could see were a dirty chamber and you may get stuck cases.

Suppressed: I’m in WA, and while it’s legal to own a suppressor it is however illegal to discharge a suppressed weapon in the state (retarded? Yes). That said I have gone to “Oregon” to shoot. I only have apx 500 rounds through both guns suppressed; fairly equally balanced between the two. I’ve shot both with the gas “open” and in “S” mode, slow and rapid fire.

For the record I use Gunfighter Charging handles with the RTV trick. This is silly easy to do and I recommend you do it.

Gas “Open”: There is a crap ton of blow back and the bolt flies to the rear especially with the carbine. The Middy was slightly less obvious that the system was getting to much gas. Even with the TRV trick the amount of gas pouring out the back was noticeable. Both guns ran fine with suppresser and gas system “open”.

Gas “S”: When running the rifles on “S” setting things are noticeable tamer. The bolt reacts much more normally. There is still a LOT of gas in the gun, but with the RTV trick and the switch block on ”S” the amount coming out of the rear of the gun was noticeably less and rapid follow up shots much easier and clearer than with a face full of gas with the system “Open”. I’ve not had one failer with the system on “S” with a can. Noveske got the gas tuned will; each barrel length & gas system have their own switch Block; ie a Carbine switch block cannot be put on a middy gas system by changing the tube, it won’t run right.

That is where I will make a note: There is ALWAYS going to be X amount of gas from the gun. The Can, switch block ect only change were the gas is going. The can will trap a lot of the blast, sound and all the flash but there is still a lot of gas coming out of the end of the can and the gas the gun needs to operate. The thing the RTV trick and the switch block does is keep 80% of that gas coming out of the front of the gun, and ejection port; not under your nose and face like a normal rifle would.

The Bad: Buy the Wrench Noveske sells. When you shoot that switch will be HOT, you will need the wrench if you want to move the setting when the gun is hot. After shooting you may also have a problem with un-burnt powder making the gas block sticky and hard to move by hand; the wrench makes this easier to do. That AND having to make sure you set the gun up right for use are the two big things I’ve noticed. I left the gun on “S” after removing my can and went to a shoot and had a failer drill right off, and right after and then I changed it to “Open” opssss. Now I train myself to leave the gun default in “open”.

I’m a gear snob when it comes to weapons lights and rifles; Surefire for lights and Noveske, Colt and BCM for AR15s. I will be buying another Switch Block gun and I can’t imagine unless I’m making a Kiss gun not having it Switch Blocked with a suppressor mount.

Hope that helps!

Josh


I wrote that to answer this same question a year or so ago. Cans in WA are now legal to use and I have another 500+ rounds suppressed through my Noveske, I’ve sold off the BCM a while ago. Hope it all helps.


My Gun:

The law changed just this past year.  It is now perfectly legal to shoot suppressors in WA.

You didn;t read all of what I wrote did you?

I drilled the Centurion barrel for the pin and it turned out nice. Now to get a can. I'm going to have to take the front of the rail back a little to allow the can to go all of the way onto a mount. Anyone have close up side view pics of an M4-2000 with it mounted? Trying to figure out how far back the can goes in relation to the beginning of the threads on the barrel.

It doesn't go back any ruther than the mount does.

Some good close up pis's here:

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=24&t=350904

I have not run a large amount through my rifle yet, but 80-100 rounds I could EASILY! still move mine by hand. Unsuppressed, though. Stupid red-tape waiting time *rant*

That being said, I lube the SB when I clean.

Should I?

No. It says not to.

However, I still blast it out with WD-40. This gets all the carbon out of it and it goes back to like-new operation. WD-40 is just a light mineral-oil with stoddard solvent and C02 as propellant. By the time I am ready to go shooting again, it has all but totally evaporated.

The reason they say not to lube it is because lube can coke/get sticky and cause problems.

This was my experience as well, although I could not tell the weapon was quieter in any one setting except no recoil associated or blast-port noise with it "off". Then, my hearing sucks.

I can't wait to try it with a can.

Full Auto rated?

Video on the FAQ page

http://noveskerifleworks.com/switchblock/

It is an excellent product.  It still sends a certain amount of gas into the upper receiver and you are still going to get some gas in the face not only from the backpressure from a suppressor with gas coming back into the upper from the chamber but also from the gas tube.  It will just be LESS gas than with a standard DI system and a suppressor.  The only way to eliminate all gas from the gas tube is to put the setting on single shot, or run a piston (which eliminates the gas tube).

Does the mount go over the barrel beyond the threads? (even just a little). I looked at the SCAR pics and it is an excellent close up view, but I can't tell what is going on with the mount and I am not familiar with where the threads start in relation to the FSB/GB on the SCAR rifles. The Surefire can in the pic below the M4-2K looks like it is further from the FSB/GB.

True




False

Not false.  On piston systems there is no gas tube that pumps gas into the receiver.  Gas is vented at the front of the handguard.  Even though you may not like the piston system, you can't argue with the fact that a piston eliminates the gas tube, thus eliminating any gas that would travel down a gas tube and into the receiver.

You clearly have never shot a piston system and a noveske switchblock in the same sitting.  The major amount of gas from the blowback is not coming from the gas tube, but from the barrel/chamber itself.

I have owned a POF 415 piston system, and shot several suppressed LWRC piston guns.  All of them were 16 inch guns.  I then had an opportunity to try the switchblock and was shocked at the difference.  I sold the POF and bought a 12.5 inch switchblock, and even with the shorter barrel the gas blowback is significantly less.

John Noveske does an excellent job explaining it here: http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/

nm

Obviously you didn't even read what I said.  I did not bring up anything to do with the total amount of gas coming back down the barrel and into your face.  And I did say the Switchblock is an excellent product.  All I said was that to eliminate gas coming back down the gas tube you either have to eliminate the gas tube like on a piston gun, or with the setting on the Switchblock to off.  Go back and look.  You are arguing something completely different than what I am saying.  Heck, I am somewhat surprised anybody could even argue this point as it is physically impossible for gas to travel down a gas tube that doesn't even exist.

What are you trying to imply exactly?  If a switchblock will result in less gas in your face even compared to a piston driven ar I would take the switchblock over piston any day.  Maybe the piston gun will be a little cleaner since there is no gas tube.  I wouldn't care as a suppressed gun is going to get dirty regardless.  I just want the one that puts less gas in your face.  I have not shot suppressed switchblock or a suppressed piston AR15.  I am waiting on my M42000.

I wonder if there is a difference in blowback from the chamber between piston driven and the switchblock.  That may be a important part.

This is your original quote.  It is clear to me that you are suggesting that a piston system sends less gas into the upper receiver because there is no gas tube.  My contention from first hand experience is that is false, and you are really splitting hairs if you want to claim that you are making the assertion that piston guns are not as efficient at handling backpressure issues than the Noveske switchblock.

Yes a piston gun eliminates all gas coming into the upper receiver from the gas tube. But the TOTAL amount of gas coming into the receiver is much greater on a piston gun when compared to the switchblock.  That is what the discussion is here.  Who cares if there is no gas coming in from the gas tube when there is a metric ton coming in from the chamber, a hole that what, 10x larger than a gas tube?

The reason behind this is that the switchblock does a much better job delaying the bolt carrier group from disengaging from the chamber, thereby forcing more of the gas through the suppressor and out of the gun.  The piston systems that I have shot are still over gassed and cause the bolt carrier group to disengage prematurely, thereby allowing more gas to blow out of the chamber as a result of the back pressure from the suppressor.  And yes I was shooting the piston guns on the suppressed setting, and even still they still had plenty of blowback compared to the switchblock.    

I dont mean to attack you dude, but I bought into the piston gun hype hook, line, and sinker.  After spending a LOT of money for one I was sorely disappointing that it did not perform nearly as well as the errornet had told me it would.  I now have a switchblock, and it is a much better solution than a piston gun.  I really go out of my way to stomp out this myth that the piston guns are the end all be all for suppressed fire so that others dont dump a bunch of money down the drain when there are better options out there.  

The one caveat I'd like to say is that my piston gun did run WAY cleaner when shooting unsuppressed when compared to my DI guns, but once you add a suppressor the over pressure from the suppressor nullified any advantage the piston system gave.

The switchblock blows the piston guns out of the water for suppressed fire in my experience...at least the POF and LWRC systems it does.  I have fired those side by side with the switchblock and there is a noticable difference in blowback.  I have not fired the HK416 system, adams arms, or other piston variants, but I can say without a doubt that LWRC and POF generate a lot more blowback.

Well I am glad we both agree with John Noveske.  "Noveske: All a piston gun is gonna’ do different from gas impingement with a suppressor is reduce the amount that is coming through the gas tube. The piston gun is gonna’ eliminate that."
Source: DefenseReview.com (http://s.tt/13fm6)

I am getting ready to build a piston AR (Rainer Arms RUC) with the Adams kit. I will be running surpressed most of the time. But after reading these last few posts I am thinking of scrapping that idea and just build the rifle with a switchblock. I run a switchblock on my Noveske factory gun now and I am very happy with it. What do you guys think?

IMO you should save your  money.  Buy ammo or another silencer!

Why not build an upper with a 0.058" gas port if you're only gonna run suppressed?

That would be the least expensive way if you are going to ONLY run suppressed.  I have seen it done on some short barrels with pinned suppressors that end up with an overall barrel/suppressor length just over 16".  It would eliminate the need to have a SBR tax stamp.  If you size the gas port properly you would end up with a rifle that gave the least amount of gas blowback possible while still functioning reliably.  It could be hard to find a short barrel with a small gas port though so you might end up having to cut down and thread a longer barrel with an smaller gas port.  

Of course that would not allow you to run it as a unsuppressed SBR when you felt like it.

I bought a DD 16" carbine barrel and cut it to 10.3". The gas port is 0.058" and it is a beauty suppressed. No gas in the face and there isn't that strong firm "Thump" you get when firing a regular AR15 suppressed. I have shot my 12.5" and 14.5" side by side with this and there is an unbelievable reduction in felt recoil and gas blowback.

It will not function unsuppressed, although it will eject the spent case. I'm about to mess around with an LMT Enhanced carrier and see if that will give me the extra 1/2" of carrier movement that I need for full cycling.

I'm not sure why one would pin a suppressor, even if it was only going to be used 100% suppressed. A $200 penalty in order to swap the can to other rifles is easily worth it.

The Noveski switchblock works so good I had to make my own version for the 762 build

I think I am going with this.

That is a good idea.  But if you still are not convinced why dont you buy mine?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_159/935853_WTS_POF_415_P12X_piston_upper.html