User Panel
[#1]
Quoted:
Under what charge? Sounds like a good case of civil rights violation, illegal seizure, and unlawful arrest (to name a few). Even cops have to abide by the ignorance of the law is no excuse rule. Punctuation is your friend. View Quote I'm not sure a Federal Judge will fully allow a 1983 claim if Deputy Cooter seizes your MP5 thinking that your paperwork is baloney. |
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[#2]
This thread is lacking a bit common sense - on both sides.
There's the way things are, and the way they should be. The way they are: Patrol gets a noise complaint. They investigate. See scary guns and feel like they should do something. Ask for "paperwork" even though they have never seen a Form 1/4 in their life. The way things should be: Patrol gets a noise complaint. They investigate. See some people shooting and tell them about the complaint. Either "keep it down" or "carry on until 9:59pm" is discussed. Hands are shaken. Pleasantries exchanged. Hoping and wishing how things should be versus how they actually are doesn't change the situation at hand. I've gotten out of a fair bit of sticky situations by showing respect, a bit of levity and providing more information than I legally had to. It's the path of least resistance and it's always an option until yours, or your family and friends life is in jeopardy. YMMV |
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[#3]
Quoted:
This thread is lacking a bit common sense - on both sides. There's the way things are, and the way they should be. The way they are: Patrol gets a noise complaint. They investigate. See scary guns and feel like they should do something. Ask for "paperwork" even though they have never seen a Form 1/4 in their life. The way things should be: Patrol gets a noise complaint. They investigate. See some people shooting and tell them about the complaint. Either "keep it down" or "carry on until 9:59pm" is discussed. Hands are shaken. Pleasantries exchanged. Hoping and wishing how things should be versus how they actually are doesn't change the situation at hand. I've gotten out of a fair bit of sticky situations by showing respect, a bit of levity and providing more information than I legally had to. It's the path of least resistance and it's always an option until yours, or your family and friends life is in jeopardy. YMMV View Quote You are right. However, thankfully not everyone has always taken the path of least resistance. Sometimes, it is about doing the right thing. Once I see things as "the right thing", all else is evil. Evil has to be defeated. It can be avoided when it has to be. But, ultimately, every opportunity must be exploited to undermine and destroy evil. That is what good men do. The right thing is not always the easy thing. Evil will happily chew you up and spit you out only to laugh at you. If one cannot look at evil and those associated with in the same or worse manner, there is little hope. As we are seeing in our country today, Evil is tearing at itself. Good people just need to stay out of the way and cheer it on. LOL! Sounds like a great movie with coming sequels. JBTs vs FSA XXVIII LOL!!!! |
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[#4]
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Since a trustee needs to be present for the NFA item to be possessed legally, I would think it prudent to have the Trust available. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I always carry all my stamps with me and a copy of the trust. keep it all in waterproof bag in gun case so its ready to go. Form1 and Form4s should be all that is needed. A SN, make, model, caliber on the form should be enough to identify the weapon/suppressor. Trust, uh no. You carry a Will with you just in case you die in a car accident? People that have these on a LLC I'm sure don't carry around their business paperwork. Since a trustee needs to be present for the NFA item to be possessed legally, I would think it prudent to have the Trust available. Unless someone else on the trust bought it, his name would still be on the form as the representative of the trust. |
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[#5]
Quoted:
Not at all. I don't see why people can't discuss and debate without being called "argumentative". Positing alternative scenarios based on the underlying premise is being argumentative? View Quote I find the guys screeching that officers have no reason to look further to be in dreamland FA weapons are regulated, there's a certain amount of illegal FA out there, who knows how much If you guys want to believe that just because FA is legal in a particular state that responding officers have no reason to verify that the weapon they've encountered is a legal or illegal FA or that they can't look at anything further than the original noise complaint then good luck with your theories.. I'm all for discussing but these threads devolve quickly and I see a lot of unrealistic claims, just as with the guns-in-police-evidence thread |
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[#6]
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[#7]
I find the guys screeching that officers have no reason to look further to be in dreamland FA weapons are regulated, there's a certain amount of illegal FA out there, who knows how much If you guys want to believe that just because FA is legal in a particular state that responding officers have no reason to verify that the weapon they've encountered is a legal or illegal FA or that they can't look at anything further than the original noise complaint then good luck with your theories.. View Quote There would be a significantly higher number of "prohibited person in possession" instances than "unpaid NFA tax" instances. If the police want to do some real good, shouldn't they be running background checks on every person they come across with a firearm? Why do they potentially see a $200 or $5 tax as the scariest gun related violation to pursue? |
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[#8]
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[#9]
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[#10]
jackal2001,
As a cop, you have my apology that another cop was an absolute dick to you, especially one who states that he has a trust and his own NFA items. Regarding the noise complaint, what you were doing was legal, and it doesn't sound like there was any time frame was involved where shooting would be less than appropriate. Guys like that give the good cops a bad name. |
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[#11]
Quoted: I'm not sure a Federal Judge will fully allow a 1983 claim if Deputy Cooter seizes your MP5 thinking that your paperwork is baloney. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Under what charge? Sounds like a good case of civil rights violation, illegal seizure, and unlawful arrest (to name a few). Even cops have to abide by the ignorance of the law is no excuse rule. Punctuation is your friend. I'm not sure a Federal Judge will fully allow a 1983 claim if Deputy Cooter seizes your MP5 thinking that your paperwork is baloney. OnlytheTip, Haven't you heard yet, ignorance of the law is ok now if you are a cop. See Heien v. North Carolina (2014). http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-604_ec8f.pdf |
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[#12]
Quoted:
There would be a significantly higher number of "prohibited person in possession" instances than "unpaid NFA tax" instances. If the police want to do some real good, shouldn't they be running background checks on every person they come across with a firearm? Why do they potentially see a $200 or $5 tax as the scariest gun related violation to pursue? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
I find the guys screeching that officers have no reason to look further to be in dreamland FA weapons are regulated, there's a certain amount of illegal FA out there, who knows how much If you guys want to believe that just because FA is legal in a particular state that responding officers have no reason to verify that the weapon they've encountered is a legal or illegal FA or that they can't look at anything further than the original noise complaint then good luck with your theories.. There would be a significantly higher number of "prohibited person in possession" instances than "unpaid NFA tax" instances. If the police want to do some real good, shouldn't they be running background checks on every person they come across with a firearm? Why do they potentially see a $200 or $5 tax as the scariest gun related violation to pursue? The paperwork kills two birds with one stone. A prohibited person would not have the forms approved in the first place |
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[#13]
he could have become prohibited after he got the paperwork
Quoted:
The paperwork kills two birds with one stone. A prohibited person would not have the forms approved in the first place View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I find the guys screeching that officers have no reason to look further to be in dreamland FA weapons are regulated, there's a certain amount of illegal FA out there, who knows how much If you guys want to believe that just because FA is legal in a particular state that responding officers have no reason to verify that the weapon they've encountered is a legal or illegal FA or that they can't look at anything further than the original noise complaint then good luck with your theories.. There would be a significantly higher number of "prohibited person in possession" instances than "unpaid NFA tax" instances. If the police want to do some real good, shouldn't they be running background checks on every person they come across with a firearm? Why do they potentially see a $200 or $5 tax as the scariest gun related violation to pursue? The paperwork kills two birds with one stone. A prohibited person would not have the forms approved in the first place |
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[#14]
This is a great way to make lifelong friends ... If you play your cards right.
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[#15]
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[#16]
This thread makes me think back into the 1990's. I worked for a Class III mfg, and he used to have an annual 4th of July shoot on a 400 acre piece of property upstate. He had rented a cube van, due to the fact that we were bringing a German PAC 37 AT gun, along with all the MGs. His shop was downtown, and with us ferrying stuff to the van, we posted a guard at the vehicle. All the time we were loading MGs into the van, after rolling the AT gun in first, a city PD cruiser was parked up the street watching from a distance.
We were just about to leave, when a unmarked car roared in like a scene from a cop movie, and a detective sprang out with a major attitude, to confront 12 armed men. He had no issue with the cannon, he had no issue with the several dozen MGs (.50 cal, MG42, Tommy Guns, etc...), he was livid over the fact that our security guy was standing next to the van, with an EXPOSED sidearm! Now, understand the van was wide open, and ALL of the hardware was there in plain view. We all looked at each other, trying to figure out if the guy was serious. Then, the business owner came into view with a nickel .45 exposed on his hip, and the cop almost had a stroke right there (everyone else had their side arms covered). FYI, as screwed up as CT gun laws have become, there was, and still is no requirement to conceal a handgun while carrying (which you can only do if you have a permit). So by our crew using OC, no laws were being broken. We all explained that to this excitable detective several times, and he held us up for 20 minutes or so while he called everyone he could think of to check. Finally, he reluctantly told us to move on. Who knows with cops? In a related story, same gun maker, same piece of property. The town where the 400 acre estate is located, has no PD, and relies on the State Police. On the first July 4th shoot, about 20 minutes after commencing fire, everybody heard sirens. Up the estate driveway roars 3 State Police cruisers. Just as if they had rehearsed it, they drove through the opening in the stone wall, deployed on line in the field, and sunk up to the axles in the mud and became stuck. They took up positions behind the immobile cruiser's doors with weapons drawn, and called over the PA system for everyone to back away from their guns. The gun maker was firing a pedestal mounted M2 .50 when the State Police showed up, and just looked over his shoulder at the show. It all got straightened out, a tow truck was called to extract the cruisers, and everybody agreed that before any further shoots, a call needed to be placed to the State Police barracks in town! |
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[#17]
Some states are pretty free. Others, well, not so much.
As I have probably already mentioned, I have served around the world. I have traveled the US. I am done with whole picture of answering to every mindless idiot who can do absolutely nothing positive for me, especially if said idiot is not paying me for the trouble. I am an old, retired military man now working in the private sector. I am done going places where I have to put up with bullies and their crap. For me, it is just a matter of the identifying bad places and avoiding them like the plague. There is no way I would visit most of the Northeast nor California. I will be adding PA to that list. I have no need for such in my life. As I age, my BS tolerance decreases. I have no time for humiliating games. Some places I will just write off as evil Hell holes and avoid ever going there again. I do appreciate everyone's input on this stuff. It is important that we all know what is what so that we can make informed decisions. Everyone has to make these choices for themselves. Everyone's criteria will vary. For me it will take a while to gather the information. I am starting by working out from Kentucky and eliminating other states, non free states, from there. Please do feel free to comment in a worthwhile manner when you see me post in your hometown forum. Again, thank you all for the information. So far, the following has been post in : Illinois Indiana Kentucky (as a baseline) Missouri Ohio Tennessee Virginia West Virginia I will be reaching out other states/regions as time goes on. What is the NFA situation in your state? GTG, just an affirmative defense, or mostly illegal? Hello. I'm a Kentucky fellow checking in on the NFA situation in other states. I am posting this in the Hometown forums of states neighboring Kentucky, to which I either visit or have visited in the past. Within your state, what are the real restrictions regarding NFA items? Suppressors SBRs SBSs Select Fire/Full Auto/MG AOWs Destructive devices To be clear, by "real" restrictions, I mean many states declare them illegal but allow them if they are federally registered NFA items. This approach is used to allow local (city, county, and state) cops to trample rights, go anywhere to investigate rapid fire on a supposed "noise complaint", and demand papers, about which they generally know little to nothing. In short, are NFA items technically legal, but the cops get to play games (in various ways and to various degrees) with your life and such is not uncommon? Some states like PA and TX fall into this category. How are they treated in your state? (Note: I have heard TX is changing or has changed this situation.) Is your state GTG? Are there no restrictions at the state level? Are there only restrictions on NFA as applied to hunting, such as no MGs for hunting? Are they supposedly legal but only through an affirmative defense? Are they full out illegal with state laws/charges on top of federal laws/charges? Here is an example of a local cop investigating an NFA "incident" in PA. Beyond this, how are things like bumpfiring, bumpfire stocks, TacCon 3MR triggers, Sig Braces, and other items like AR pistols along with shotguns and rifles with folding stocks treated by the LEO community in your state and within your immediate area? Finally, what do you dislike the most about the NFA situation in your state? I would like to hear it straight from those who have to live with the situation and actually know something about the matter. I will be using this information to make major lifestyle changes in the future. Thank you for your time and input. |
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[#18]
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[#19]
Quoted:
Already considered that, I have to believe that there is some mechanism in place for people who get prohibiting convictions to lose their firearms in every state, including any NFA items View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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he could have become prohibited after he got the paperwork Already considered that, I have to believe that there is some mechanism in place for people who get prohibiting convictions to lose their firearms in every state, including any NFA items Fortunately not all states are like that. Maybe we can settle our debts with China by giving them our Communist states? In some states, a person may be prohibited from possessing firearms but not necessarily owning them. In many places, they may transfer them to another person. |
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[#20]
Quoted:
Some states are pretty free. Others, well, not so much. As I have probably already mentioned, I have served around the world. I have traveled the US. I am done with whole picture of answering to every mindless idiot who can do absolutely nothing positive for me, especially if said idiot is not paying me for the trouble. I am an old, retired military man now working in the private sector. I am done going places where I have to put up with bullies and their crap. For me, it is just a matter of the identifying bad places and avoiding them like the plague. There is no way I would visit most of the Northeast nor California. I will be adding PA to that list. I have no need for such in my life. As I age, my BS tolerance decreases. I have no time for humiliating games. Some places I will just write off as evil Hell holes and avoid ever going there again. I do appreciate everyone's input on this stuff. It is important that we all know what is what so that we can make informed decisions. Everyone has to make these choices for themselves. Everyone's criteria will vary. For me it will take a while to gather the information. I am starting by working out from Kentucky and eliminating other states, non free states, from there. Please do feel free to comment in a worthwhile manner when you see me post in your hometown forum. Again, thank you all for the information. So far, the following has been post in : Illinois Indiana Kentucky (as a baseline) Missouri Ohio Tennessee Virginia West Virginia I will be reaching out other states/regions as time goes on. What is the NFA situation in your state? GTG, just an affirmative defense, or mostly illegal? Hello. I'm a Kentucky fellow checking in on the NFA situation in other states. I am posting this in the Hometown forums of states neighboring Kentucky, to which I either visit or have visited in the past. Within your state, what are the real restrictions regarding NFA items? Suppressors SBRs SBSs Select Fire/Full Auto/MG AOWs Destructive devices To be clear, by "real" restrictions, I mean many states declare them illegal but allow them if they are federally registered NFA items. This approach is used to allow local (city, county, and state) cops to trample rights, go anywhere to investigate rapid fire on a supposed "noise complaint", and demand papers, about which they generally know little to nothing. In short, are NFA items technically legal, but the cops get to play games (in various ways and to various degrees) with your life and such is not uncommon? Some states like PA and TX fall into this category. How are they treated in your state? (Note: I have heard TX is changing or has changed this situation.) Is your state GTG? Are there no restrictions at the state level? Are there only restrictions on NFA as applied to hunting, such as no MGs for hunting? Are they supposedly legal but only through an affirmative defense? Are they full out illegal with state laws/charges on top of federal laws/charges? Here is an example of a local cop investigating an NFA "incident" in PA. Beyond this, how are things like bumpfiring, bumpfire stocks, TacCon 3MR triggers, Sig Braces, and other items like AR pistols along with shotguns and rifles with folding stocks treated by the LEO community in your state and within your immediate area? Finally, what do you dislike the most about the NFA situation in your state? I would like to hear it straight from those who have to live with the situation and actually know something about the matter. I will be using this information to make major lifestyle changes in the future. Thank you for your time and input. View Quote If you would calm your ass down and read the statutes or even just put in the most bare minimum of effort like googling the topic you'd know that PA has no such laws like TX about "affirmative defense" and such. Seriously, you need to calm down and check yourself, you don't even know the facts of what you're ranting about and basing everything on anecdotal internet stories. NFA is completely legal in PA, there are no extra burdens by state law. |
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[#21]
Quoted:
If you would calm your ass down and read the statutes or even just put in the most bare minimum of effort like googling the topic you'd know that PA has no such laws like TX about "affirmative defense" and such. Seriously, you need to calm down and check yourself, you don't even know the facts of what you're ranting about and basing everything on anecdotal internet stories. NFA is completely legal in PA, there are no extra burdens by state law. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
[span style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:[/spa
If you would calm your ass down and read the statutes or even just put in the most bare minimum of effort like googling the topic you'd know that PA has no such laws like TX about "affirmative defense" and such. Seriously, you need to calm down and check yourself, you don't even know the facts of what you're ranting about and basing everything on anecdotal internet stories. NFA is completely legal in PA, there are no extra burdens by state law. Check yourself, and you go calm your own ass down after telling the cops in this tread off. They are the ones saying certain states only allow NFA items through an "affirmative defense". Don't like my post? Go argue with the cops. |
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[#22]
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Check yourself, and you go calm your own ass down after telling the cops in this tread off. They are the ones saying certain states only allow NFA items through an "affirmative defense". Don't like my post? Go argue with the cops. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:[/spa
If you would calm your ass down and read the statutes or even just put in the most bare minimum of effort like googling the topic you'd know that PA has no such laws like TX about "affirmative defense" and such. Seriously, you need to calm down and check yourself, you don't even know the facts of what you're ranting about and basing everything on anecdotal internet stories. NFA is completely legal in PA, there are no extra burdens by state law. Check yourself, and you go calm your own ass down after telling the cops in this tread off. They are the ones saying certain states only allow NFA items through an "affirmative defense". Don't like my post? Go argue with the cops. Unless the cops you are referring to have beaten the odds and aren't the usual 4 year degree at CC in " criminal justice", no... And even then, probably no. When you need legal advice, do you look for the nearest boy in blue? I'm not sure anyone here can [span style='font-weight: bold;']help you. |
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[#23]
Quoted:
jackal2001, As a cop, you have my apology that another cop was an absolute dick to you, especially one who states that he has a trust and his own NFA items. Regarding the noise complaint, what you were doing was legal, and it doesn't sound like there was any time frame was involved where shooting would be less than appropriate. Guys like that give the good cops a bad name. View Quote dittos. I'm a cop and have my own shooting range and shoot FA all the time. Have had the law show up several times over the years when idiots call them. They were always polite and I always offer to let them shoot my toys. Nowadays, when the neighbors up the road about a mile call and complain about the noise, they don't even show up and tell the complainant that they aren't coming out. |
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[#24]
Quoted:
dittos. I'm a cop and have my own shooting range and shoot FA all the time. Have had the law show up several times over the years when idiots call them. They were always polite and I always offer to let them shoot my toys. Nowadays, when the neighbors up the road about a mile call and complain about the noise, they don't even show up and tell the complainant that they aren't coming out. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
jackal2001, As a cop, you have my apology that another cop was an absolute dick to you, especially one who states that he has a trust and his own NFA items. Regarding the noise complaint, what you were doing was legal, and it doesn't sound like there was any time frame was involved where shooting would be less than appropriate. Guys like that give the good cops a bad name. dittos. I'm a cop and have my own shooting range and shoot FA all the time. Have had the law show up several times over the years when idiots call them. They were always polite and I always offer to let them shoot my toys. Nowadays, when the neighbors up the road about a mile call and complain about the noise, they don't even show up and tell the complainant that they aren't coming out. That's what sucked at my last agency..... If someone was out in the COUNTY, where it was legal to shoot fireworks and someone called in, we were REQUIRED to respond .... Like I said earlier, same with people shooting..... Still irks me when I hear people say, "This isn't a gun range!!! We paid a lot of money to live out in the county for the peace and quiet!" Ya? Well the people shooting paid a lot of money too to be able to lawfully shoot in the county... Even as much as I disliked that agency, I will still say the supervision was good at backing me up by telling peopling complaining to go pound sand |
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[#25]
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That's what sucked at my last agency..... If someone was out in the COUNTY, where it was legal to shoot fireworks and someone called in, we were REQUIRED to respond .... Like I said earlier, same with people shooting..... Still irks me when I hear people say, "This isn't a gun range!!! We paid a lot of money to live out in the county for the peace and quiet!" Ya? Well the people shooting paid a lot of money too to be able to lawfully shoot in the county... Even as much as I disliked that agency, I will still say the supervision was good at backing me up by telling peopling complaining to go pound sand View Quote We hear that too. I tell 'em that people do things like shoot guns in the country and if they didn't want to hear guns they should go back into a city or village There are still legitimate issues like distance from neighbors homes that come into play |
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[#26]
I'm curious. Can a police officer just walk onto private land? I'm sure he had "probable cause" but once it's null and void, as a private land owner don't you have the right to know what that probable cause was?
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[#27]
Was he trespassing?
A trust is non of his fucking business. Also, the NFA is non of his business. Get his name and call his station. cooperate, but then file a complaint later. Fucking D bag. |
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[#28]
Quoted:
Was he trespassing? A trust is non of his fucking business. Also, the NFA is non of his business. Get his name and call his station. cooperate, but then file a complaint later. Fucking D bag. View Quote Here's some reading for you Also, please keep in mind we're on the same team here.... But depending on state law is a factor also. In Texas NFA items are illegal unless they are registered with ATF. Sole burden to prove they are legal falls upon individual and not the state. In Texas if you were shooting and police crossed a fenced marked no trespassing with signs or properly marked purple paint, and confronted you and asked to see your paperwork. Unfortunately your complaint would result in you being told to go pound sand. |
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[#29]
Quoted: Here's some reading for you Also, please keep in mind we're on the same team here.... But depending on state law is a factor also. In Texas NFA items are illegal unless they are registered with ATF. Sole burden to prove they are legal falls upon individual and not the state. In Texas if you were shooting and police crossed a fenced marked no trespassing with signs or properly marked purple paint, and confronted you and asked to see your paperwork. Unfortunately your complaint would result in you being told to go pound sand. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Was he trespassing? A trust is non of his fucking business. Also, the NFA is non of his business. Get his name and call his station. cooperate, but then file a complaint later. Fucking D bag. Here's some reading for you Also, please keep in mind we're on the same team here.... But depending on state law is a factor also. In Texas NFA items are illegal unless they are registered with ATF. Sole burden to prove they are legal falls upon individual and not the state. In Texas if you were shooting and police crossed a fenced marked no trespassing with signs or properly marked purple paint, and confronted you and asked to see your paperwork. Unfortunately your complaint would result in you being told to go pound sand. The open field doctrine you cited to has to do with the lack of expectation of privacy in an open field rather than how the cops can trespass at will without a warrant or probable cause so I don't think it really applies in this case. However, I think you are spot on about how the cops can go investigate the noise / full auto complaint. Further, in Texas (just like in Florida) full auto is illegal but it is an affirmative defense that the full auto is registered under the NFA so you had better show your paperwork if you want to avoid being arrested. True, you don't have to show you paperwork to anyone but the ATF but if you don't, then you get arrested, charged and can show you paperwork at trial. Who needs that hassle when you can show your paperwork initially and avoid getting arrested? |
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[#30]
All the internet cowboys that claim the will tell the Police to buzz off and then in reality will wet there paints and cry I don't want to go to jail when the po po show up and talk to them.
Quoted:
The open field doctrine you cited to has to do with the lack of expectation of privacy in an open field rather than how the cops can trespass at will without a warrant or probable cause so I don't think it really applies in this case. However, I think you are spot on about how the cops can go investigate the noise / full auto complaint. Further, in Texas (just like in Florida) full auto is illegal but it is an affirmative defense that the full auto is registered under the NFA so you had better show your paperwork if you want to avoid being arrested. True, you don't have to show you paperwork to anyone but the ATF but if you don't, then you get arrested, charged and can show you paperwork at trial. Who needs that hassle when you can show your paperwork initially and avoid getting arrested? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Was he trespassing? A trust is non of his fucking business. Also, the NFA is non of his business. Get his name and call his station. cooperate, but then file a complaint later. Fucking D bag. Here's some reading for you Also, please keep in mind we're on the same team here.... But depending on state law is a factor also. In Texas NFA items are illegal unless they are registered with ATF. Sole burden to prove they are legal falls upon individual and not the state. In Texas if you were shooting and police crossed a fenced marked no trespassing with signs or properly marked purple paint, and confronted you and asked to see your paperwork. Unfortunately your complaint would result in you being told to go pound sand. The open field doctrine you cited to has to do with the lack of expectation of privacy in an open field rather than how the cops can trespass at will without a warrant or probable cause so I don't think it really applies in this case. However, I think you are spot on about how the cops can go investigate the noise / full auto complaint. Further, in Texas (just like in Florida) full auto is illegal but it is an affirmative defense that the full auto is registered under the NFA so you had better show your paperwork if you want to avoid being arrested. True, you don't have to show you paperwork to anyone but the ATF but if you don't, then you get arrested, charged and can show you paperwork at trial. Who needs that hassle when you can show your paperwork initially and avoid getting arrested? |
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[#32]
My neighbors who are from Commiefornia and New York are the only ones that call and complain when I shoot.
They complaints have lessen since I have been using my suppressors on the m16 and m11. |
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[#33]
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[#34]
Sorry about your luck. I live on a farm and have a 100 yard range with a berm behind my house. New neighbors moved in from New Jersey (I live in central Kentucky). One Sunday afternoon, I had some friends over and we started shooting. One friend is a swat cop and brought his issued MP5 and we were shooting it without the can. About 30 minutes into shooting, two county sheriff cars roll up in the driveway and start walking over to where we are. I know both the deputies and asked them what was up. The first one started to laugh and said "I think you've scared your new Yankee neighbors. They called and said you were shooting machine guns and they just knew it had to be illegal" The second one spoke up and said "I've got half a case of ammo from quals in the trunk, care if we run a few mags?" They ran a few mags thought the MP5 and then deputy #2 broke out his M16A1 and ran about three mags through it. They got done shooting and said they were going to talk to the neighbors. Fast forward a few months, the Yankee neighbors are regulars at range day. I've come home twice now to the old guy shooting in my field. He just turns and waves and goes back to shooting.
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[#35]
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[#36]
Quoted:
Sorry about your luck. I live on a farm and have a 100 yard range with a berm behind my house. New neighbors moved in from New Jersey (I live in central Kentucky). One Sunday afternoon, I had some friends over and we started shooting. One friend is a swat cop and brought his issued MP5 and we were shooting it without the can. About 30 minutes into shooting, two county sheriff cars roll up in the driveway and start walking over to where we are. I know both the deputies and asked them what was up. The first one started to laugh and said "I think you've scared your new Yankee neighbors. They called and said you were shooting machine guns and they just knew it had to be illegal" The second one spoke up and said "I've got half a case of ammo from quals in the trunk, care if we run a few mags?" They ran a few mags thought the MP5 and then deputy #2 broke out his M16A1 and ran about three mags through it. They got done shooting and said they were going to talk to the neighbors. Fast forward a few months, the Yankee neighbors are regulars at range day. I've come home twice now to the old guy shooting in my field. He just turns and waves and goes back to shooting. View Quote Glad you were able to convert them to our side! |
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[#37]
Quoted:
Sorry about your luck. I live on a farm and have a 100 yard range with a berm behind my house. New neighbors moved in from New Jersey (I live in central Kentucky). One Sunday afternoon, I had some friends over and we started shooting. One friend is a swat cop and brought his issued MP5 and we were shooting it without the can. About 30 minutes into shooting, two county sheriff cars roll up in the driveway and start walking over to where we are. I know both the deputies and asked them what was up. The first one started to laugh and said "I think you've scared your new Yankee neighbors. They called and said you were shooting machine guns and they just knew it had to be illegal" The second one spoke up and said "I've got half a case of ammo from quals in the trunk, care if we run a few mags?" They ran a few mags thought the MP5 and then deputy #2 broke out his M16A1 and ran about three mags through it. They got done shooting and said they were going to talk to the neighbors. Fast forward a few months, the Yankee neighbors are regulars at range day. I've come home twice now to the old guy shooting in my field. He just turns and waves and goes back to shooting. View Quote They're lucky you're a good neighbor and let them shoot there. |
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[#38]
Quoted: When I first got MGs every time I went shooting in the County the Sheriffs deputies would show up. So I got to calling them before I went out to let them know to expect some complaints. They stopped showing up. Eventually I stopped calling them and I haven't seen any for years. The New York and New Jersey immigrants moving here expecting peace and quiet think they can move next to a firing range and make us go away. Thankfully there's a grandfather clause for ranges in NC. View Quote I've never had any LEO ask for paperwork, just the occasional look of bewilderment. I have however had people come over and expect a .22 and see I was shooting .223/.308 with a can and ask WTF I had them for. I offered to let them shoot them, a few packed up and left without ever shooting what they brought. I imagine a panicked call to 911 followed shortly after. |
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[#39]
Quoted:
No. LE has exactly zero power to arbitrarily halt any citizen who is acting in a presumptively legal manner. NFA is legal there, therefore no grounds to investigate. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
PA law specifically says that machine guns are legal as long as they are registered under the NFA. So the local cop who actually was enforcing the law as it is written in his state had every right to verify the paperwork. No. LE has exactly zero power to arbitrarily halt any citizen who is acting in a presumptively legal manner. NFA is legal there, therefore no grounds to investigate. This. A cop can't say "I see you pumping gas into a car, license and registration please. I need to make sure you own the car and are legally allowed to operate it" |
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[#40]
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[#41]
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[#42]
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[#43]
Quoted:A cop can't say "I see you pumping gas into a car, license and registration please. I need to make sure you own the car and are legally allowed to operate it"
View Quote There have been some interesting discussions on the board regarding this exact point. While what you say is absolutely correct regarding cars, the legal opinions (backed up by case law, IIRC) in some locales is that NFA is so rare relatively speaking that it doesn't enjoy the same presumption of legality. |
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[#44]
Quoted:
Show the officers the appropriate paperwork and it shouldn't make it TO court. Not hard to understand. The gun is legal for you to possess if you can show that it is properly documented to you View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
No. The law (in some states) says that it is illegal but when charged in court you can use that as a defense. That makes no sense for a hunk of metal. Killing people is generally illegal but self defense is an affirmative defense. But that is a theoretical that doesn't exist until there is a body. The gun is "illegal" from the second you pick it up and everyday after. Stupid. Show the officers the appropriate paperwork and it shouldn't make it TO court. Not hard to understand. The gun is legal for you to possess if you can show that it is properly documented to you Newsflash, all guns are "legal". I don't give a shit what some scumbag traitor politician says. Cops like you are the problem. Make sure to respond with the, "I'm just doing my job" bit. Because thats always worked when you're on trial after the people have enough of this crap....... |
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[#45]
Quoted:
Noise complaints come in many forms, including shooting States have weapons laws too, you do realize? See above You're entitled to your opinion If its a legal FA then show the paperwork so the officer knows you aren't someone who drilled some extra holes in your receiver and threw in some parts you shouldn't have, As has already been noted, there are state laws regarding weapons that has nothing to do with needing an ATf agent and as has already been noted, making the argument that only ATF agents can demand FA paperwork is a bit lame View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Noise complaint? It was not loud music. People were shooting. That is either legal or it is isn't. The cop galloped in squealing, "WHO HAS THE FULL AUTO". I don't think ATF guys handle noise complaints. Harassing people over things about which the cops know nothing should be criminal violations, civil violations, or both. I do understand that decent people are used to taking this crap, but it has to stop. Noise complaints come in many forms, including shooting States have weapons laws too, you do realize? Quoted:
I apologize. I did not realize that the cop in question was an ATF agent. See above Quoted:
Here is the bottom line. Owning full autos in many states is not illegal. Shooting on private property is not illegal if outside of city limits, in many states. M16s are going for about $25,000 right now. People have hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions tied up in real estate . All of this is completely legal. This is also the reason most decent people work, to have something that is their own. People must not have to live in fear of their rights, property, and personal space being violated., especially when such is being done just to exert some notion of dominance. There is absolutely no reason for any non ATF type to go charging into private property to investigate a federal matter of which he has no knowledge or jurisdiction. This cop was out of line. Did he run everyone's ID to verify they were not in fact a prohibited person? NO? This guy was just out to cause problems and humiliate people. Just another JBT. Such bad people are not needed on the planet. That is my opinion, and I am sticking to it. You're entitled to your opinion If its a legal FA then show the paperwork so the officer knows you aren't someone who drilled some extra holes in your receiver and threw in some parts you shouldn't have, As has already been noted, there are state laws regarding weapons that has nothing to do with needing an ATf agent and as has already been noted, making the argument that only ATF agents can demand FA paperwork is a bit lame "Just show". How about no? Just comply. That is what you're saying. I'm a grown up just like you. I'll be damned if I don't fight, legally, any way that I can when some other grown up thinks they can tell me what to do when I'm not hurting anyone else or causing damage to something. Just becausr another group of, increasingly traitorous, grown ups gave you a tin badge to enforce the unconstitutional laws they make doesn't mean you legally can. I won't bother making a post outlining all of the nonsense that is happening with cops in this country because it would take hours and it's not like it'll change cops or boot lickers' minds. You guys keep wondering why more and more law abiding people outside of the ghetto are starting to hate you. |
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[#46]
Quoted:
Bad comparison. In the OPs case the shooting is directly tied in with the noise complaint View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
If a cop is at my house for a noise violation, what right does he have, without a warrant, to view my car registration or the deed to my home or my will? Bad comparison. In the OPs case the shooting is directly tied in with the noise complaint And the point you're missing, on purpose because you're a cop, is that once he saw it was shooting recreationally he should have been on his way. Innocent until proven guilty. Cops should know people can legally own said devices. Therefore, logically, cop had zero right to do or say anything. This is very simple logic and reason. I'm not shocked though that people who seek positions of power don't comprehend. Shooting or possessing a gun, nfa or other is not probable cause. Period. They are legal. You don't have the probably cause to "check to see if they are legal". You saying that proves right there you're in the wrong. |
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[#47]
Quoted:
Newsflash, all guns are "legal". I don't give a shit what some scumbag traitor politician says. Cops like you are the problem. Make sure to respond with the, "I'm just doing my job" bit. Because thats always worked when you're on trial after the people have enough of this crap....... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Newsflash, all guns are "legal". I don't give a shit what some scumbag traitor politician says. Cops like you are the problem. Make sure to respond with the, "I'm just doing my job" bit. Because thats always worked when you're on trial after the people have enough of this crap....... How about we agree to disagree Quoted:
And the point you're missing, on purpose because you're a cop, is that once he saw it was shooting recreationally he should have been on his way. Innocent until proven guilty. Cops should know people can legally own said devices. Therefore, logically, cop had zero right to do or say anything. This is very simple logic and reason. I'm not shocked though that people who seek positions of power don't comprehend. Shooting or possessing a gun, nfa or other is not probable cause. Period. They are legal. You don't have the probably cause to "check to see if they are legal". You saying that proves right there you're in the wrong. See above Quoted:
"Just show". How about no? Just comply. That is what you're saying. I'm a grown up just like you. I'll be damned if I don't fight, legally, any way that I can when some other grown up thinks they can tell me what to do when I'm not hurting anyone else or causing damage to something. Just becausr another group of, increasingly traitorous, grown ups gave you a tin badge to enforce the unconstitutional laws they make doesn't mean you legally can. I won't bother making a post outlining all of the nonsense that is happening with cops in this country because it would take hours and it's not like it'll change cops or boot lickers' minds. You guys keep wondering why more and more law abiding people outside of the ghetto are starting to hate you. If you don't like the laws, then get them changed We are a nation of laws, that's how it works I don't see all of this hate that you speak of. What I see are people stopping me daily telling me they support us The only ones I've seen who "hate " us are the same criminals who've never liked law enforcement. |
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[#48]
Quoted:
The officers is within their rights to verify that the appropriate documentation exists that the firearm is legal. We don't have "POST here; that's a Western US thing. If the noise is verified it wasn't a crank call. The noise actually existed as reported. Now, most shooting complaints don't come in to us as "noise", they come in as shots fired. Once its been verified that everything at the scene is legal then yeah it is time to clear and go on to the next call, with the shooters and complainant advised on how to handle future similar incidents depending on the facts of that incident. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Not every car is not a stolen car. It is unlawful for you to pull over people who have broken no law just so you can fish for imp[roper papers or other criminal activity. This is called pretext for a stop. Are you sure you are a cop? Didn't they go over this with you in POST? Indeed it is. It is not grounds for further investigation if the officer arrives and observes that the noise is secondary to presumptively legal behavior. A crank calling in a noise complaint in Indianapolis would not be justification for a cop pulling onto the speedway and halting drivers to check their creds at the Indianapolis 500. The officers is within their rights to verify that the appropriate documentation exists that the firearm is legal. We don't have "POST here; that's a Western US thing. If the noise is verified it wasn't a crank call. The noise actually existed as reported. Now, most shooting complaints don't come in to us as "noise", they come in as shots fired. Once its been verified that everything at the scene is legal then yeah it is time to clear and go on to the next call, with the shooters and complainant advised on how to handle future similar incidents depending on the facts of that incident. Not lawfully you don't. Period. It's the equivalent of searching someone's effects without a probably cause or warrant. You're wrong. Typical. Like I said. One day we will get sick of it and make cops like you pay for your crimes. Rest assured I say that with a straight face. |
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[#49]
Quoted:
Not lawfully you don't. Period. It's the equivalent of searching someone's effects without a probably cause or warrant. You're wrong. Typical. Like I said. One day we will get sick of it and make cops like you pay for your crimes. Rest assured I say that with a straight face. View Quote Yes, we do. If the officer believes that they w ere shooting FA, he has every right to check on there being appropriate documentation that would show the rifles were properly documented FA weapons. This has been addressed multiple times in the thread by other posters. I don't know where the idea comes from that the only officers who can check for Form 1s or other Federal forms are ATF guys. "Cops like me" are not your problem. I'm more on your side than you give me credit for. At the same time I expect law-abiding gun owners to follow the laws. If they can't, they should understand that there are consequences to breaking those laws. That's part of being law-abiding citizens and being a good representative of the shooting population to the general population. Don't blame the officers because the gun issue is one that divides the nation as does gay rights, abortion, etc. The laws we have reflect the varying degrees that the population differs in its opinions and treatment of gun issues across the nation, and especially on the Federal level where the urban areas are going to heavily sway the publics votes on this issue, even in the reddest of states. The answer to getting the gun laws you want is to turn the public towards pro-gun beliefs. When is the last time you took an uncommitted person on gun issues to the range and tried to bring them to the pro-gun camp. If you haven't, don't tell me that I am the problem. |
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[#50]
I think a lot of you guys confuse "legal" with "constitutional".
They are not the same thing. It used to be the constitution was the supreme law of the land, but there are thousands of unconstitutional laws on the books today - maybe millions. Sadly, they must each be challenged & defeated, individually. ETA: Spelling |
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