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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:09:58 AM EDT
Thought I would share my story since I see some questions regarding 'carry nfa paperwork with you' etc.
My buddy has a friend that has some land that goes shooting every once and a while. I've been there before. No issues. We've had plenty of guys all line up at the same time and shoot. No issues. So we schedule another meet, my buddy brings his M16, and here is what unfolded. So we all gather, start shooting all kinds of stuff. 5.56, 9mm, 12 gauge, etc. Then we break out the M16 and do a quick couple of bursts. Move on to other stuff, come back to the M16 quick couple of bursts. The owner then tries to teach some non-gun friends to shoot the M16, etc. Some more bursts. I then do a full mag dump. Set the weapon down and proceed to shoot some other semi-auto stuff. Just as I'm about to pull the trigger I hear, "everyone hold up". I turn around and see a cop walking down toward us. All I'm thinking now in my head is "great, here we go." First words out of the cops mouth is "WHO HAS THE FULL AUTO" in a demanding pissed off voice. My buddy shows him the weapon, cop wants paperwork immediately. My buddy pulls out his copies of his NFA paperwork for his M16 and SBS he has there. The cop was examining the paperwork, asking questions like, "how do I know this is you", "i need to see your trust", " where is the SN located", etc, etc, etc. We then proceeded to talk about 'what is what' and 'what we need', etc, etc. After about 15 minutes of being a hard ass, he finally eased up. The funny thing was, I had an MP5 SBR and he didn't ask to see my paperwork, which I did have on me. I guess he was more concerned with the M16. While we were talking to him, he was telling us that he also has NFA and transferred a Suppressor from his fathers trust to his. So I would think he would know everything about this. I kept scratching my head about why he was asking for his trust. DIdn't make sense to me. There is no law against shooting where we were. He said someone called in a noise complaint. He told us he couldn't tell us to stop shooting but he could come back for another noise complaint. We put away the M16 and continued to shoot other stuff for the day. It was both my buddy's and my first time dealing with a police officer dealing with NFA toys. |
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Noise complaint? What are your noise laws? Anywhere safe enough to shoot shouldn't have "noise laws"
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Beats me. I don't live in that town so I'm not sure. I know the guy that owns the property also hunts on his land. The cop told us that the complaint came from far away.
I guess since the trees didn't have leaves on them yet, it was early spring, the sound traveled pretty far. Maybe the people that called were scared, some old lady with her cats, who knows. |
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Yeah only cities and neighborhoods typically have noise laws. Sucks ppl can complain about shot that may not be against the law and popo shows up and does an impromptu search of your stuff. But I guess better than being arrested and sorting out the paperwork later. NFA is getting more and more common now, they should assume anything out in public is legit. Used in a bank robbery, probably not.
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I always carry all my stamps with me and a copy of the trust. keep it all in waterproof bag in gun case so its ready to go.
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Quoted:
I always carry all my stamps with me and a copy of the trust. keep it all in waterproof bag in gun case so its ready to go. View Quote Form1 and Form4s should be all that is needed. A SN, make, model, caliber on the form should be enough to identify the weapon/suppressor. Trust, uh no. You carry a Will with you just in case you die in a car accident? People that have these on a LLC I'm sure don't carry around their business paperwork. |
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Someone probably called in a complaint and that guy didn't want to be there.
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I had cops show up at my buddies when one of us was bump firing a 8 inch barrels pap ak. He was cool about it though and didn't come up all pissed off and yelling "who's got the full auto". Sucks your police came up mad.
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when we did an all day, Full Auto shoot, we pre called the local sherrif's office
and informed them of the planned activity
When they showed up, we gave them an operation check out on the rifles, let them run a couple of mags and have some gatoraid. any subsequent calls to 911 were handled by "them boys are all right" |
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when we did an all day, Full Auto shoot, we pre called the local sherrif's office and informed them of the planned activity When they showed up, we gave them an operation check out on the rifles, let them run a couple of mags and have some gatoraid. any subsequent calls to 911 were handled by "them boys are all right" View Quote yep If I have more than a couple of folks over, or we are shooting in the evening or after dark, a courtesy call will keep the local fuzz happy. Of course my elderly aunt will call on anyone who shoots a .22 at a skunk. |
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Yep I was thinking the same thing, but I also thought this would just give them a reason to come harass us.
We did offer to let him shoot anything he wanted but he declined. |
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Sounds like a dickhead cop. It happens. View Quote NFA Act is a Federal law, not a state or local PD law. How does he have any legal authority over a machinegun? Stuff like this is what makes subsonic machineguns with a can priceless. These days it's not enough to comply with the law to avoid being harassed apparently. |
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Yeah only cities and neighborhoods typically have noise laws. Sucks ppl can complain about shot that may not be against the law and popo shows up and does an impromptu search of your stuff. But I guess better than being arrested and sorting out the paperwork later. NFA is getting more and more common now, they should assume anything out in public is legit. Used in a bank robbery, probably not. View Quote Townships can have noise ordinances too. Who is going to be arrested on a noise ordinance? |
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Form1 and Form4s should be all that is needed. A SN, make, model, caliber on the form should be enough to identify the weapon/suppressor. Trust, uh no. You carry a Will with you just in case you die in a car accident? People that have these on a LLC I'm sure don't carry around their business paperwork. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I always carry all my stamps with me and a copy of the trust. keep it all in waterproof bag in gun case so its ready to go. Form1 and Form4s should be all that is needed. A SN, make, model, caliber on the form should be enough to identify the weapon/suppressor. Trust, uh no. You carry a Will with you just in case you die in a car accident? People that have these on a LLC I'm sure don't carry around their business paperwork. Since a trustee needs to be present for the NFA item to be possessed legally, I would think it prudent to have the Trust available. |
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NFA Act is a Federal law, not a state or local PD law. How does he have any legal authority over a machinegun? Stuff like this is what makes subsonic machineguns with a can priceless. These days it's not enough to comply with the law to avoid being harassed apparently. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Sounds like a dickhead cop. It happens. NFA Act is a Federal law, not a state or local PD law. How does he have any legal authority over a machinegun? Stuff like this is what makes subsonic machineguns with a can priceless. These days it's not enough to comply with the law to avoid being harassed apparently. Sounds like he was an ass but most states also cover full auto in their laws which does give the local cops authority to enforce their state laws. Dont forget there are asshats in all professions |
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In before the "go fuck yourself, copper...only person who can enforce this of ask to see my paperwork is an ATF agent" tough guy crowd.
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My only LEO experience with my NFA stuff:
(On the line at a range) Officer: hey, is that a SBR? (obvious, it's a 10.5" barrel) Me: Yep. You looking at paperwork or something? Officer: me? Naw, I'm just here to sight in this rifle. That thing is pretty nice. Me: you want to shoot it? Officer: sure (bang bang bang). Wish we had rifles like this. Me: yeah it's lots of fun Officer: well I need to go... Me: ok, seeya 'round |
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unfortunately outside of investment reasons that's pretty much the only thing MG's are really going to get you. I think in the last ten years in two states that I have lived, there have been 3 MG friendly ranges around and those were indoor rental places, none of the private clubs around here are MG friendly, ive never seen a MG friendly game lands public range,
hell even in the mountains of central West By God Virginia, we had the local sheriff show up one time, he was cool, no hurt feels, went back to shooting once he cleared the area and good times were had, but if you cant shoot a MG in central WV, your going to have issue in a lot of places. SBR's and silencers, never been asked even when local LE was present. total non issue even in a place like Maryland go figure |
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In before the "go fuck yourself, copper...only person who can enforce this of ask to see my paperwork is an ATF agent" tough guy crowd. View Quote Well... That is more true than not. LEO has no way to verify anything. Absent information that a crime is being commited or about to be why are they asking questions ? The notion of let me see your trust does not hold either. The Trust has nothing to do with it in that context. The NFA items are registered with the Federal Govt.. Not State. A Canceled Tax stamp is the proof the Federal Govt provides that the item was Regestered. Period... Yes... Fuck busy body LEO's that do not understand how the world works. |
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You might want to rethink the buzz of cop attitude depending where you live.
In Texas even if you have paper work showing its your weapon you can be hauled in. After you show it to the judge you will be released but the ride is not a fun thing and depending on time and day you may be in the Jail house a while till you get to see the Judge. But hay if its worth a night in jail to stick it to the man and say I dont have to show you jack shit have at it. |
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A similar situation happened to myself and some other shooters. A few of us had legal NFA ( Mac, Thompson, M16a2) and we were happily firing away when three deputy sherrifs approached. They had a bull horn and ordered the guns down, step back, etc. They asked if we were shooting automatic weapons or see anyone who was. I told him "we were" and it's all of us. He looked really surprised. We showed them our paperwork but they were totally clueless what they were looking at.
Someone called in a complaint of machine gun fire so they came out. It was legal to shoot so they said that we could resume activities. We let them all run a few mags thru our guns and they left with a smile. This was many years ago. Today people get nervous at gun fire and if they hear automatic weapon fire get really nervous or mad. It's one of the reasons I sold most of my MG's but kept one and suppressed about everything I shoot. If no one hears you, no one complains. |
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Since a trustee needs to be present for the NFA item to be possessed legally, I would think it prudent to have the Trust available. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I always carry all my stamps with me and a copy of the trust. keep it all in waterproof bag in gun case so its ready to go. Form1 and Form4s should be all that is needed. A SN, make, model, caliber on the form should be enough to identify the weapon/suppressor. Trust, uh no. You carry a Will with you just in case you die in a car accident? People that have these on a LLC I'm sure don't carry around their business paperwork. Since a trustee needs to be present for the NFA item to be possessed legally, I would think it prudent to have the Trust available. Lol. No. |
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On another note, I RO at my range one day a week and its always funny when a member shows up with class 3. Some of them are all bumbling over themselves getting their paperwork out to show me and I just say don't bother I am just the humble RO not ATF
Sometimes they are like but as its a very private club I am very laid back about it as I have never seen a member show up with something illegal. |
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Quoted: We did offer to let him shoot anything he wanted but he declined. View Quote One time I was with some friends shooting NFA on private land. One of our targets was an old junk car. The gas tank was drained along with all other fluids. Unfortunately a tracer round caught the back seat on fire and soon the car was engulfed with a plume of black smoke in the air. Eventually the cops and the fire department show up. Once the cops realized that everything was legal, the fire department decided to let the car burn itself out. Some of the firemen even took shots at the burning car. An other time I was at an indoor range. After my first full auto burst, an off duty cop comes up to me, flashes his badge and asks if my gun is legal. I say it is and have paperwork with me. He says no problem and goes back to shooting. |
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You might want to rethink the buzz of cop attitude depending where you live. In Texas even if you have paper work showing its your weapon you can be hauled in. After you show it to the judge you will be released but the ride is not a fun thing and depending on time and day you may be in the Jail house a while till you get to see the Judge. But hay if its worth a night in jail to stick it to the man and say I dont have to show you jack shit have at it. View Quote Under what charge? Sounds like a good case of civil rights violation, illegal seizure, and unlawful arrest (to name a few). Even cops have to abide by the ignorance of the law is no excuse rule. Punctuation is your friend. |
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I wonder what he would have done had you guys been shooting an AR with a Bumpski stock and not an M16. Would have been called in the same, as full auto gunfire. Sounds like he didn't know wtf he was looking at, paperwork wise. Where's the SN? lol.
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If you're stuff is in trust form, it's a good idea to have the signature page in with your stamps.
That's the page of the trust that you had notorized, and that you signed. That way: These items have valid NFA forms, and are resgistered to the XX Trust. I am a member of the XX Trust, so I can posses these items. Just one more form to take with you. |
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You might want to rethink the buzz of cop attitude depending where you live. In Texas even if you have paper work showing its your weapon you can be hauled in. After you show it to the judge you will be released but the ride is not a fun thing and depending on time and day you may be in the Jail house a while till you get to see the Judge. But hay if its worth a night in jail to stick it to the man and say I dont have to show you jack shit have at it. View Quote Yeah but how likely is that to happen? In my experience not likely. |
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If you're stuff is in trust form, it's a good idea to have the signature page in with your stamps. That's the page of the trust that you had notorized, and that you signed. That way: These items have valid NFA forms, and are resgistered to the XX Trust. I am a member of the XX Trust, so I can posses these items. Just one more form to take with you. View Quote I still think it is dumb. Box 3B has the same address as my drivers license. The other thing the cop asked was "how do I know that is your signature" on the bottom of the Form1/4. My buddy was like, look at my drivers license. Cop was like "it doesn't look the same". I didn't even want to stir the pot by telling him, "guess what, the new eForms don't even have our signatures on it, they state, 'digitally signed'". It almost seems like the BATFE needs to issue a 'get out of jail free' card when you are approved for NFA toys so you can show the fudds you are not a criminal. Jeessh. |
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I had reduced-size copies of all my Form 4's made and laminated. I keep copies in both my vehicles and both my properties. Never had anyone ask to see them.
Several times at the range I've had cops give me the hairy eyeball, say "Is that legal?", and then give me some more hairy eyeball. You can tell that they feel like they should "do something", but they're not sure what. |
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Shooting my M16....and suppressors...
Sheriff deputy rolls up.....ask for paperwork.....calls it in...... 10 minutes later....ask me if I am an assassin? I just stared at him and he gives me back my paperwork and drives off. Tillamook County Sheriffs .....Cop was JACKSON..... Oregon. |
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Right, machine guns go up in value while suppressors go down in value. Some suppressors have little to no value used as not only is technology always improving them and having to pay 2x $200 for a transfer to a dealer from a private individual, then another $200 to an individual really limits how much you can charged for a used item that is several hundred dollars new. |
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Right, machine guns go up in value while suppressors go down in value. Some suppressors have little to no value used as not only is technology always improving them and having to pay 2x $200 for a transfer to a dealer from a private individual, then another $200 to an individual really limits how much you can charged for a used item that is several hundred dollars new. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Time for more suppressors. Machine Guns FIFY Right, machine guns go up in value while suppressors go down in value. Some suppressors have little to no value used as not only is technology always improving them and having to pay 2x $200 for a transfer to a dealer from a private individual, then another $200 to an individual really limits how much you can charged for a used item that is several hundred dollars new. Thats just for state to state not if sold in state ? |
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Quoted: Thats just for state to state not if sold in state ? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Time for more suppressors. Machine Guns FIFY Right, machine guns go up in value while suppressors go down in value. Some suppressors have little to no value used as not only is technology always improving them and having to pay 2x $200 for a transfer to a dealer from a private individual, then another $200 to an individual really limits how much you can charged for a used item that is several hundred dollars new. Thats just for state to state not if sold in state ? Correct. Under federal law, a private individual can sell a NFA item to another private individual who is a resident of the same state and only pay a single $200 tax. The second tax is required in cases where the individuals are members of different states. |
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Noise complaint? What are your noise laws? Anywhere safe enough to shoot shouldn't have "noise laws" View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Noise complaint? What are your noise laws? Anywhere safe enough to shoot shouldn't have "noise laws" It doesn't quite work that way, since most noise laws are not written specifically with firearms in mind. Quoted:
Townships can have noise ordinances too. Who is going to be arrested on a noise ordinance? Usually a cite and release scenario Around here it's always been the college population. In the last few years things like Tannerite have become popular and I've had to explain to my guys and the usual callers what the stuff is |
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Have your buddy get a suppressor, it makes a big difference with the neighbors. As a MG shooter I'll even admit someone shooting centerfire rounds all days gets annoying especially if you have animals or kids who are botherd by the noise. But tossing a suppressor on 5.56 makes it sounds like 22lr and most ppl can deal with that.
As far as LEO I've never dealt with any. I keep a copy of full size form 4s and trust in my case and a reduced size of the form 4 in the pistol grip of the firearm. Just be kind and curtains to the officers, they're just doing their job and anytime they get called out to investigate people using firearms I'm sure it's a tense situation and they want to take control of the situation, not to mention they are WAY out gunned lol |
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I've never had an issue with police and class three stuff, I have all my documents on PDF. and on my iPhone and iPad, I'll also carry a copy of the form one or four with whatever item I have with me. I don't go out too much, I still haven't shot my suppressors which got approved last June.
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Shooting range is an allowable land use in our zoning here . The sheriff will come out if there is a call from neighbors .
It usually goes like this Sheriff " Good afternoon sir we had a call about your shooting " Me " did someone call ?" Sheriff " Yes Mrs Crabby Bitch up the road " Me " Oh Hmm well would you guys like to shoot something ?" Sheriff after along stare at the firearms " Thanks but we better not we just had to HAY is that an Acog ?" After the first six or seven visits they don't come by anymore . It's a shame I like them driving through our area. |
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I was sighting in my SBR last year at an indoor range and a few officers were there shooting for qualifications. They never asked for paperwork, had an awesome attitude and I even got to shoot drills with the lights off and red/blue strobes going.
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I wonder what he would have done had you guys been shooting an AR with a Bumpski stock and not an M16. Would have been called in the same, as full auto gunfire. Sounds like he didn't know wtf he was looking at, paperwork wise. Where's the SN? lol. View Quote I had a local deputy show up at our local range after hearing the rapid gunfire from a semi MAC, and a 9 mm AR. I can pull about 425 rpm with my finger and can accurately bump from the shoulder. He was all huffy asking who had the Tommy gun. After looking at all of the guns he finally accepted the fact that it was just rapid semi auto fire and left. |
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I've never had an issue with police and class three stuff, I have all my documents on PDF. and on my iPhone and iPad, I'll also carry a copy of the form one or four with whatever item I have with me. I don't go out too much, I still haven't shot my suppressors which got approved last June. View Quote WTF |
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Same situation here. A bunch of guys, AR/AK/M-16/ Saiga 12/etc all blasting for a while. Some burst/FA. We had all just done mags dumps and here a PA speaker. "y'all done for a minute, we are getting out to come talk". 3 deputies and the where cool. Had compliant and where checking up. Said no way they where getting out until we where done, did not turn a weapon around. Like others they where grinning after mag dumps.
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