I'm not sure a Federal Judge will fully allow a 1983 claim if Deputy Cooter seizes your MP5 thinking that your paperwork is baloney.

This thread is lacking a bit common sense - on both sides.

There's the way things are, and the way they should be.

The way they are: Patrol gets a noise complaint. They investigate. See scary guns and feel like they should do something. Ask for "paperwork" even though they have never seen a Form 1/4 in their life.

The way things should be: Patrol gets a noise complaint. They investigate. See some people shooting and tell them about the complaint. Either "keep it down" or "carry on until 9:59pm" is discussed. Hands are shaken. Pleasantries exchanged.

Hoping and wishing how things should be versus how they actually are doesn't change the situation at hand.

I've gotten out of a fair bit of sticky situations by showing respect, a bit of levity and providing more information than I legally had to. It's the path of least resistance and it's always an option until yours, or your family and friends life is in jeopardy.

YMMV

You are right.   However, thankfully not everyone has always taken the path of least resistance.    Sometimes, it is about doing the right thing.  

Once I see things as "the right thing", all else is evil.   Evil has to be defeated.   It can be avoided when it has to be.   But, ultimately, every opportunity must be exploited to undermine and destroy evil.    That is what good men do.      The right thing is not always the easy thing.    

Evil will happily chew you up and spit you out only to laugh at you.   If one cannot look at evil and those associated with in the same or worse manner, there is little hope.    

As we are seeing in our country today, Evil is tearing at itself.    Good people just need to stay out of the way and cheer it on.    LOL!    Sounds like a great movie with coming sequels.    JBTs vs FSA  XXVIII   LOL!!!!

Unless someone else on the trust bought it, his name would still be on the form as the representative of the trust.

I find the guys screeching that officers have no reason to look further to be in dreamland
FA weapons are regulated, there's a certain amount of illegal FA out there, who knows how much
If you guys want to believe that just because FA is legal in a particular state that responding officers have no reason to verify that the weapon they've encountered is a legal or illegal FA  or that they can't look at anything further than the original noise complaint then good luck with your theories..
I'm all for discussing but these threads devolve quickly and I see a lot of unrealistic claims, just as with the guns-in-police-evidence thread

I really dont know the answer to this I am not being a smartass but can they take your items or does that put them in the spot of having a NFA item with no stamp ?

There would be a significantly higher number of "prohibited person in possession" instances than "unpaid NFA tax" instances.  If the police want to do some real good, shouldn't they be running background checks on every person they come across with a firearm?  Why do they potentially see a $200 or $5 tax as the scariest gun related violation to pursue?

Remove them for the NFA and a lot more people will use them.

 

Easier said than done.

OnlytheTip, Haven't you heard yet, ignorance of the law is ok now if you are a cop.  See Heien v. North Carolina (2014).

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-604_ec8f.pdf



 

The paperwork kills two birds with one stone.
A prohibited person would not have the forms approved in the first place

he could have become prohibited after he got the paperwork

This is a great way to make lifelong friends ... If you play your cards right.

If you smoke enough crack, everything seems possible., I suppose.

This thread makes me think back into the 1990's.  I worked for a Class III mfg, and he used to have an annual 4th of July shoot on a 400 acre piece of property upstate.  He had rented a cube van, due to the fact that we were bringing a German PAC 37 AT gun, along with all the MGs.  His shop was downtown, and with us ferrying stuff to the van, we posted a guard at the vehicle.  All the time we were loading MGs into the van, after rolling the AT gun in first, a city PD cruiser was parked up the street watching from a distance.

We were just about to leave, when a unmarked car roared in like a scene from a cop movie, and a detective sprang out with a major attitude, to confront 12 armed men.  He had no issue with the cannon, he had no issue with the several dozen MGs (.50 cal, MG42, Tommy Guns, etc...), he was livid over the fact that our security guy was standing next to the van, with an EXPOSED sidearm!  Now, understand the van was wide open, and ALL of the hardware was there in plain view.  We all looked at each other, trying to figure out if the guy was serious.  Then, the business owner came into view with a nickel .45 exposed on his hip, and the cop almost had a stroke right there (everyone else had their side arms covered).

FYI, as screwed up as CT gun laws have become, there was, and still is no requirement to conceal a handgun while carrying (which you can only do if you have a permit).  So by our crew using OC, no laws were being broken.  We all explained that to this excitable detective several times, and he held us up for 20 minutes or so while he called everyone he could think of to check.   Finally, he reluctantly told us to move on.  Who knows with cops?

In a related story, same gun maker, same piece of property.  The town where the 400 acre estate is located, has no PD, and relies on the State Police.  On the first July 4th shoot, about 20 minutes after commencing fire, everybody heard sirens.  Up the estate driveway roars 3 State Police cruisers.  Just as if they had rehearsed it, they drove through the opening in the stone wall, deployed on line in the field, and sunk up to the axles in the mud and became stuck.  They took up positions behind the immobile cruiser's doors with weapons drawn, and called over the PA system for everyone to back away from their guns.  The gun maker was firing a pedestal mounted M2 .50 when the State Police showed up, and just looked over his shoulder at the show.  It all got straightened out, a tow truck was called to extract the cruisers, and everybody agreed that before any further shoots, a call needed to be placed to the State Police barracks in town!

Some states are pretty free.   Others, well, not so much.  

As I have probably already mentioned, I have served around the world.    I have traveled the US.   I am done with whole picture of answering to every mindless idiot who can do absolutely nothing positive for me, especially if said idiot is not paying me for the trouble.     I am an old, retired military man now working in the private sector.    I am done going places where I have to put up with bullies and their crap.    For me, it is just a matter of the identifying bad places and avoiding them like the plague. There is no way I would visit most of the Northeast nor California.   I will be adding PA to that list.   I have no need for such in my life.   As I age, my BS tolerance decreases.    I have no time for humiliating games.   Some places I will just write off as evil Hell holes and avoid ever going there again.  

I do appreciate everyone's input on this stuff.    It is important that we all know what is what so that we can make informed decisions.      Everyone has to make these choices for themselves.   Everyone's criteria will vary.   For me it will take a while to gather the information.   I am starting by working out from Kentucky and eliminating other states, non free states, from there.       Please do feel free to comment in a worthwhile manner when you see me post in your hometown forum.

Again, thank you all for the information.


So far, the following has been post in :

Illinois
Indiana
Kentucky (as a baseline)
Missouri
Ohio
Tennessee
Virginia
West Virginia


I will be reaching out other states/regions as time goes on.




What is the NFA situation in your state?    GTG, just an affirmative defense, or mostly illegal?

Hello.    I'm a Kentucky fellow checking in on the NFA situation in other states.    I am posting this in the Hometown forums of states neighboring Kentucky, to which I either visit or have visited in the past.  

Within your state, what are the real restrictions regarding NFA items?    

Suppressors
SBRs
SBSs
Select Fire/Full Auto/MG
AOWs
Destructive devices

To be clear, by "real" restrictions, I mean many states declare them illegal but allow them if they are federally registered NFA items.     This approach is used to allow local (city, county, and state) cops to trample rights, go anywhere to investigate rapid fire on a supposed "noise complaint", and demand papers, about which they generally know little to nothing.    In short, are NFA items technically legal, but the cops get to play games (in various ways and to various degrees) with your life and such is not uncommon?  

Some states like PA and TX fall into this category.     How are they treated in your state?    
(Note: I have heard TX is changing or has changed this situation.)

Is your state GTG?   Are there no restrictions at the state level?

Are there only restrictions on NFA as applied to hunting, such as no MGs for hunting?

Are they supposedly legal but only through an affirmative defense?

Are they full out illegal with state laws/charges on top of federal laws/charges?
 
Here is an example of a local cop investigating an NFA "incident" in PA.

Beyond this, how are things like bumpfiring, bumpfire stocks, TacCon 3MR triggers, Sig Braces, and other items like AR pistols  along with shotguns and rifles with folding stocks treated by the LEO community in your state and within your immediate area?

Finally, what do you dislike the most about the NFA situation in your state?

I would like to hear it straight from those who have to live with the situation and actually know something about the matter.    I will be using this information to make major lifestyle changes in the future.

Thank you for your time and input.

Already considered that, I have to believe that there is some mechanism in place for people who get prohibiting convictions to lose their firearms in  every state, including any NFA items

Fortunately not all states are like that.

Maybe we can settle our debts with China by giving them our Communist states?    

In some states, a person may be prohibited from possessing firearms but not necessarily owning them.   In many places, they may transfer them to another person.

If you would calm your ass down and read the statutes or even just put in the most bare minimum of effort like googling the topic you'd know that PA has no such laws like TX about "affirmative defense" and such. Seriously, you need to calm down and check yourself, you don't even know the facts of what you're ranting about and basing everything on anecdotal internet stories. NFA is completely legal in PA, there are no extra burdens by state law.

Check yourself, and you go calm your own ass down after telling the cops in this tread off.   They are the ones saying certain states only allow NFA items through an "affirmative defense".      

Don't like my post?   Go argue with the cops.    

Unless the cops you are referring to have beaten the odds and aren't the usual 4 year degree at CC in " criminal justice", no... And even then, probably no. When you need legal advice, do you look for the nearest boy in blue?

I'm not sure anyone here can [span style='font-weight: bold;']help you.

dittos.  I'm a cop and have my own shooting range and shoot FA all the time.  Have had the law show up several times over the years when idiots call them.  They were always polite and I always offer to let them shoot my toys.  Nowadays, when the neighbors up the road about a mile call and complain about the noise, they don't even show up and tell the complainant that they aren't coming out.  

That's what sucked at my last agency.....  If someone was out in the COUNTY, where it was legal to shoot fireworks and someone called in, we were REQUIRED to respond ....  Like I said earlier, same with people shooting.....   Still irks me when I hear people say, "This isn't a gun range!!! We paid a lot of money to live out in the county for the peace and quiet!"

Ya? Well the people shooting paid a lot of money too to be able to lawfully shoot in the county... Even as much as I disliked that agency, I will still say the supervision was good at backing me up by telling peopling complaining to go pound sand

We hear that too.
I tell 'em that people do things like shoot guns in the country and if they didn't want to hear guns they should go back into a city or village
There are still legitimate issues like distance from neighbors homes that come into play

I'm curious.  Can a police officer just walk onto private land?   I'm sure he had "probable cause" but once it's null and void, as a private land owner don't you have the right to know what that probable cause was?

Was he trespassing?

A trust is non of his fucking business. Also, the NFA is non of his business.

Get his name and call his station.

cooperate, but then file a complaint later. Fucking D bag.

Here's some reading for you

Also, please keep in mind we're on the same team here....  But depending on state law is a factor also.  In Texas NFA items are illegal unless they are registered with ATF.  Sole burden to prove they are legal falls upon individual and not the state.


In Texas if you were shooting and police crossed a fenced marked no trespassing with signs or properly marked purple paint, and confronted you and asked to see your paperwork.  Unfortunately your complaint would result in you being told to go pound sand.

The open field doctrine you cited to has to do with the lack of expectation of privacy in an open field rather than how the cops can trespass at will without a warrant or probable cause so I don't think it really applies in this case.



However, I think you are spot on about how the cops can go investigate the noise / full auto complaint.  Further, in Texas (just like in Florida) full auto is illegal but it is an affirmative defense that the full auto is registered under the NFA so you had better show your paperwork if you want to avoid being arrested.  True, you don't have to show you paperwork to anyone but the ATF but if you don't, then you get arrested, charged and can show you paperwork at trial.  



Who needs that hassle when you can show your paperwork initially and avoid getting arrested?



 

All the internet cowboys that claim the will tell the Police to buzz off and then in reality will wet there paints and cry I don't want to go to jail when the po po show up and talk to them.

Oops, double tap.





 

My neighbors who are from Commiefornia and New York are the only ones that call and complain when I shoot.


They complaints have lessen since I have been using my suppressors on the m16 and m11.

Is that a Pavlovian response for you? To get your paint ready?





 

Sorry about your luck. I live on a farm and have a 100 yard range with a berm behind my house. New neighbors moved in from New Jersey (I live in central Kentucky). One Sunday afternoon, I had some friends over and we started shooting. One friend is a swat cop and brought his issued MP5 and we were shooting it without the can. About 30 minutes into shooting, two county sheriff cars roll up in the driveway and start walking over to where we are. I know both the deputies and asked them what was up. The first one started to laugh and said "I think you've scared your new Yankee neighbors. They called and said you were shooting machine guns and they just knew it had to be illegal" The second one spoke up and said "I've got half a case of ammo from quals in the trunk, care if we run a few mags?" They ran a few mags thought the MP5 and then deputy #2 broke out his M16A1 and ran about three mags through it. They got done shooting and said they were going to talk to the neighbors. Fast forward a few months, the Yankee neighbors are regulars at range day. I've come home twice now to the old guy shooting in my field. He just turns and waves and goes back to shooting.

For some (not most) police officers, it's impossible to leave a situation without reminding everyone "Who's in Charge ®".

Glad you were able to convert them to our side!

They're lucky you're a good neighbor and let them shoot there.

Thankfully my range here in Florida is the same way.  Some developers thought it would be a good idea to build apartments within 400 yards of our range which allows shooting of any caliber 24/7.  When I had my .50s it would echo off the apartments pretty good.  Luckily our range is used by LEOs, so we don't really have any issues.  

 

I've never had any LEO ask for paperwork, just the occasional look of bewilderment.  I have however had people come over and expect a .22 and see I was shooting .223/.308 with a can and ask WTF I had them for.  I offered to let them shoot them, a few packed up and left without ever shooting what they brought.  I imagine a panicked call to 911 followed shortly after.

This.  

A cop can't say "I see you pumping gas into a car, license and registration please. I need to make sure you own the car and are legally allowed to operate it"

I carry copies of my stamps the same way.  My stamps never leave my safe.



 

Actually, this is the correct answer.



 

Maybe in FL.  In Texas right now, that's not the case under current state law......  

There have been some interesting discussions on the board regarding this exact point.  While what you say is absolutely correct regarding cars, the legal opinions (backed up by case law, IIRC) in some locales is that NFA is so rare relatively speaking that it doesn't enjoy the same presumption of legality.

Newsflash, all guns are "legal". I don't give a shit what some scumbag traitor politician says. Cops like you are the problem.

Make sure to respond with the, "I'm just doing my job" bit. Because thats always worked when you're on trial after the people have enough of this crap.......

"Just show". How about no?  Just comply. That is what you're saying.

I'm a grown up just like you. I'll be damned if I don't fight, legally, any way that I can when some other grown up thinks they can tell me what to do when I'm not hurting anyone else or causing damage to something. Just becausr another group of, increasingly traitorous, grown ups gave you a tin badge to enforce the unconstitutional laws they make doesn't mean you legally can.  

I won't bother making a post outlining all of the nonsense that is happening with cops in this country because it would take hours and it's not like it'll change cops or boot lickers' minds.

You guys keep wondering why more and more law abiding people outside of the ghetto are starting to hate you.

And the point you're missing, on purpose because you're a cop, is that once he saw it was shooting recreationally he should have been on his way.

Innocent until proven guilty. Cops should know people can legally own said devices.  Therefore, logically, cop had zero right to do or say anything.

This is very simple logic and reason. I'm not shocked though that people who seek positions of power don't comprehend.  

Shooting or possessing a gun, nfa or other is not probable cause. Period. They are legal. You don't have the probably cause to "check to see if they are legal". You saying that proves right there you're in the wrong.

How about we agree to disagree

See above




If you don't like the laws, then get them changed
We are a nation of laws, that's how it works
I don't see all of this hate that you speak of.
What I see are people stopping me daily telling me they support us
The only ones I've seen who "hate " us are the same criminals who've never liked law enforcement.

Not lawfully you don't. Period. It's the equivalent of searching someone's effects without a probably cause or warrant. You're wrong.  Typical. Like I said. One day we will get sick of it and make cops like you pay for your crimes. Rest assured I say that with a straight face.

Yes, we do.
If the officer believes that they w ere shooting FA, he has every right to check on there being appropriate documentation that would show the rifles were properly documented FA weapons.
This has been addressed multiple times in the thread by other posters.
I don't know where the idea comes from that the only officers who can check for Form 1s or other Federal forms are ATF guys.

"Cops like me" are not your problem. I'm more on your side than you give me credit for.
At the same time I expect law-abiding gun owners to follow the laws.
If they can't, they should understand that there are consequences to breaking those laws.
That's part of being law-abiding citizens and being a good representative of the shooting population to the general population.

Don't blame the officers because the gun issue is one that divides the nation as does gay rights, abortion, etc. The laws we have reflect the varying degrees that the population differs in its opinions and treatment of gun issues across the nation, and especially on the Federal level where the urban areas are going to heavily sway the publics votes on this issue, even in the reddest of states.
The answer to getting the gun laws you want is to turn the public towards pro-gun beliefs.
When is the last time you took an uncommitted person on gun issues to the range and tried to bring them to the pro-gun camp.
If you haven't, don't tell me that I am the problem.

I think a lot of you guys confuse "legal" with "constitutional".

They are not the same thing.

It used to be the constitution was the supreme law of the land, but there are thousands of unconstitutional laws on the books today - maybe millions. Sadly, they must each be challenged & defeated, individually.

ETA: Spelling