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Posted: 10/21/2014 3:29:06 PM EDT
I was browsing through the archives looking for info on Arfcom's preferred tourniquets when I saw someone by the name of "FireStar" on this site stating the following:
"60+% of preventable deaths in the field are from bleeding extremities. 30+% from tension pneumo so get a needle decompression kit and learn how to use it too. It's to easy to prevent!" There was a little more, but I cut it down to keep this thread on the subject of who makes the best tourniquets and decompression needle kits. What makes one better than the other? Why do you have them? What is your most likely use? Where do you store it? Do you like to keep multiples in different locations? What do you think of this one? It seems like it would be better to me because you don't have to slip it over the end of the limb (which may not be doable in a situations) and maybe a little more easily stored. 
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:09:53 PM EDT
[#1]
I'm going to be the first to stick my toe in the water on this one.
I personally like the Cat T for the ease of one handed application. Having said that I also carry a SOF T Wide on the med kit. It's a give and take between the two. Decompression needle. You won't need one in the states. You're generally pretty close to a hospital and first responders. I would say that you also open yourself up to huge legal risk sticking a needle in someones chest. That goes beyond "good samaritan" laws. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 5:01:18 PM EDT
[#2]
CAT or SOFT-W. This RAT is new to me, but I've been seeing videos all over recently. ETA: I see the "fits more people" use, but one handed? And it's a huge pain in the ass to loop around multiple times like that on a dude that is laying down and bleeding. I'll keep my CATs and SOFTs unless I'm on a bariatric battlefield lol
Legal issues aside, as far as SHTF purposes go, I like NAR because they come in a nifty sharpie like case. But any 14 ga 3.25" needle will work. Just learn how to PROPERLY use it. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 5:05:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG.
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Posted: 10/21/2014 6:42:21 PM EDT
[#4]
As an extra question, has anyone had experience with the MAT Mechanical Advantage Tourniquet? Any problems stopping a distal pulse, breaking the plastic cog, etc?
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Posted: 10/21/2014 6:47:19 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm partial to the SOFT-wide. I think the CAT has an easier learning curve and is acceptable The SOFT-W is my first choice
Look at what the TCCC says regarding TQs and their recommendation I like the needles from H&H - same one as the NAR, but cheaper. I'm not a fan of NAR or their practices. Unless you are your buddies know how to use the needle, I wouldn't get one. Spend the money on a trainer TQ and practice with it Do not use your critical use TQ as a trainer |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 6:54:15 PM EDT
[#6]
I have a bunch of CAT's, a couple of SWAT's, and I'm going to pick up a SOFFT-W or two. All have their pros and cons.
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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:46:20 PM EDT
[#7]
The top two that have been tried and proven is the CAT and the SOFTT (and the W version). If I get shot in a limb, I want one of those on me.
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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:48:29 PM EDT
[#8]
A 14G Angiocath works great for decompressing a tension PTX.
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:41:44 PM EDT
[#9]
We use CAT-T's and ARS decompression needles.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:47:30 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG. I'd ask you for a little more benefit of the doubt, but I can see you've been burned by some of my fellow 14ers in the past. I wouldn't think of sticking one of these things into myself or anybody else without first becoming an expert in their use. I just wanted to know if some decompression needles were better than others and what to stay away from. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:48:46 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a bunch of CAT's, a couple of SWAT's, and I'm going to pick up a SOFFT-W or two. All have their pros and cons. But do you have a favorite? And what makes that one your favorite? |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 3:01:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm partial to the SOFT-wide. I think the CAT has an easier learning curve and is acceptable The SOFT-W is my first choice Look at what the TCCC says regarding TQs and their recommendation I like the needles from H&H - same one as the NAR, but cheaper. I'm not a fan of NAR or their practices. Unless you are your buddies know how to use the needle, I wouldn't get one. Spend the money on a trainer TQ and practice with it Do not use your critical use TQ as a trainer Just curious, what are NARs practices that you aren't a fan of? I only use them cause that's what I get issued, so cost and politics isn't my problem  . But I am curious.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 7:58:13 AM EDT
[#13]
The RATS is pretty awesome. But if you try it out, make sure somebody is nearby to help get that fucker off.
It works really well. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 11:10:25 AM EDT
[#14]
CAT-T or SOFT
Personally, a CAT-T for my Arms, and SOFT for my legs since I got some bigass legs. Decompression Needle |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 11:53:22 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just curious, what are NARs practices that you aren't a fan of? I only use them cause that's what I get issued, so cost and politics isn't my problem . But I am curious.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm partial to the SOFT-wide. I think the CAT has an easier learning curve and is acceptable The SOFT-W is my first choice Look at what the TCCC says regarding TQs and their recommendation I like the needles from H&H - same one as the NAR, but cheaper. I'm not a fan of NAR or their practices. Unless you are your buddies know how to use the needle, I wouldn't get one. Spend the money on a trainer TQ and practice with it Do not use your critical use TQ as a trainer Just curious, what are NARs practices that you aren't a fan of? I only use them cause that's what I get issued, so cost and politics isn't my problem . But I am curious.I understand they are wide issued, and their actual medical products aren't bad. The issues I have with them are: - they blatantly copy peoples stuff - they copied ITS med pouch - they blatalanty copied another gear company's med pouch and panel. They fed that company a load if BS about how they wanted to sell their products and what great designs . I happened to be at a conference when NAR was called out on it- it was great - they pulled a real shitty move during the height of the GWOT with the Izzy dressing from performance systems. NAR copied the dressing and packaged it with the Izzys NSN and sold it to the Gov ( which is highly unethical and illegal) they were called out on it and eventually changed the dressing a bit and packaging. Had they not had a good lobbyist, they would have been major repercussions - the knockoff CAT things was a real issue. When the knockoffs starting showing up, NAR didn't care and did nothing to protect the end user ( they eventually did do something) unlike TacMed- who when found out about knockoffs of their SOFT, put out a PDF with the differences to spot the fakes - they " sponsored" a med program for several Gov agencies. In doing so , they controlled course content and forbid any competitors products to be taught/used in the classes. I understand as a business they are pushing the products that they sell. The issue I have with holding back on teaching life saving slills that may be afforded a better chance at survival due to better products. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 7:58:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But do you have a favorite? And what makes that one your favorite? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have a bunch of CAT's, a couple of SWAT's, and I'm going to pick up a SOFFT-W or two. All have their pros and cons. But do you have a favorite? And what makes that one your favorite? CAT, by a slight margin, if only for the ease of one-handed use. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 9:26:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand they are wide issued, and their actual medical products aren't bad. The issues I have with them are: - they blatantly copy peoples stuff - they copied ITS med pouch - they blatalanty copied another gear company's med pouch and panel. They fed that company a load if BS about how they wanted to sell their products and what great designs . I happened to be at a conference when NAR was called out on it- it was great - they pulled a real shitty move during the height of the GWOT with the Izzy dressing from performance systems. NAR copied the dressing and packaged it with the Izzys NSN and sold it to the Gov ( which is highly unethical and illegal) they were called out on it and eventually changed the dressing a bit and packaging. Had they not had a good lobbyist, they would have been major repercussions - the knockoff CAT things was a real issue. When the knockoffs starting showing up, NAR didn't care and did nothing to protect the end user ( they eventually did do something) unlike TacMed- who when found out about knockoffs of their SOFT, put out a PDF with the differences to spot the fakes - they " sponsored" a med program for several Gov agencies. In doing so , they controlled course content and forbid any competitors products to be taught/used in the classes. I understand as a business they are pushing the products that they sell. The issue I have with holding back on teaching life saving slills that may be afforded a better chance at survival due to better products. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm partial to the SOFT-wide. I think the CAT has an easier learning curve and is acceptable The SOFT-W is my first choice Look at what the TCCC says regarding TQs and their recommendation I like the needles from H&H - same one as the NAR, but cheaper. I'm not a fan of NAR or their practices. Unless you are your buddies know how to use the needle, I wouldn't get one. Spend the money on a trainer TQ and practice with it Do not use your critical use TQ as a trainer Just curious, what are NARs practices that you aren't a fan of? I only use them cause that's what I get issued, so cost and politics isn't my problem . But I am curious.I understand they are wide issued, and their actual medical products aren't bad. The issues I have with them are: - they blatantly copy peoples stuff - they copied ITS med pouch - they blatalanty copied another gear company's med pouch and panel. They fed that company a load if BS about how they wanted to sell their products and what great designs . I happened to be at a conference when NAR was called out on it- it was great - they pulled a real shitty move during the height of the GWOT with the Izzy dressing from performance systems. NAR copied the dressing and packaged it with the Izzys NSN and sold it to the Gov ( which is highly unethical and illegal) they were called out on it and eventually changed the dressing a bit and packaging. Had they not had a good lobbyist, they would have been major repercussions - the knockoff CAT things was a real issue. When the knockoffs starting showing up, NAR didn't care and did nothing to protect the end user ( they eventually did do something) unlike TacMed- who when found out about knockoffs of their SOFT, put out a PDF with the differences to spot the fakes - they " sponsored" a med program for several Gov agencies. In doing so , they controlled course content and forbid any competitors products to be taught/used in the classes. I understand as a business they are pushing the products that they sell. The issue I have with holding back on teaching life saving slills that may be afforded a better chance at survival due to better products. Wow, never heard about this. Glad I haven't spent any money with them. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 10:01:28 PM EDT
[#18]
I know nothing about decomp needles so I don't have any. I currently only have TK4 tourniquets on hand,but have some CATs on order.
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Posted: 10/23/2014 11:44:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Tourniquet brand, as long as it is legit, is less important than training with it. You need to develop muscle memory and confidence with the equipment.
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Posted: 10/24/2014 12:56:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tourniquet brand, as long as it is legit, is less important than training with it. You need to develop muscle memory and confidence with the equipment. Yes, training is of the utmost importance, but I'm still curious what your personal preference of brand is. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 6:13:48 AM EDT
[#21]
CAT TQ. Easy to store, easy to use, light, durable.
I've also trained with the SOF-T is a bit bulky but pro's are it's durable and like someone mentioned before it's large enough and easier to put around large legs than the CAT. I'm split on the aluminum windlass on the SOF-T as I've seen better execution of a aluminum windlass on the TQS tourniquet. As for decomp I have a mojo dart in the safety container. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 10:22:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Needles....I Hate Needles.....
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Posted: 10/24/2014 1:10:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, training is of the utmost importance, but I'm still curious what your personal preference of brand is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Tourniquet brand, as long as it is legit, is less important than training with it. You need to develop muscle memory and confidence with the equipment. Yes, training is of the utmost importance, but I'm still curious what your personal preference of brand is. CAT is what I have the most experience with and it works. SOFT-T is gtg as well. No experience with other types other than finger fucking them. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:40:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand they are wide issued, and their actual medical products aren't bad. The issues I have with them are: - they blatantly copy peoples stuff - they copied ITS med pouch - they blatalanty copied another gear company's med pouch and panel. They fed that company a load if BS about how they wanted to sell their products and what great designs . I happened to be at a conference when NAR was called out on it- it was great - they pulled a real shitty move during the height of the GWOT with the Izzy dressing from performance systems. NAR copied the dressing and packaged it with the Izzys NSN and sold it to the Gov ( which is highly unethical and illegal) they were called out on it and eventually changed the dressing a bit and packaging. Had they not had a good lobbyist, they would have been major repercussions - the knockoff CAT things was a real issue. When the knockoffs starting showing up, NAR didn't care and did nothing to protect the end user ( they eventually did do something) unlike TacMed- who when found out about knockoffs of their SOFT, put out a PDF with the differences to spot the fakes - they " sponsored" a med program for several Gov agencies. In doing so , they controlled course content and forbid any competitors products to be taught/used in the classes. I understand as a business they are pushing the products that they sell. The issue I have with holding back on teaching life saving slills that may be afforded a better chance at survival due to better products. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm partial to the SOFT-wide. I think the CAT has an easier learning curve and is acceptable The SOFT-W is my first choice Look at what the TCCC says regarding TQs and their recommendation I like the needles from H&H - same one as the NAR, but cheaper. I'm not a fan of NAR or their practices. Unless you are your buddies know how to use the needle, I wouldn't get one. Spend the money on a trainer TQ and practice with it Do not use your critical use TQ as a trainer Just curious, what are NARs practices that you aren't a fan of? I only use them cause that's what I get issued, so cost and politics isn't my problem . But I am curious.I understand they are wide issued, and their actual medical products aren't bad. The issues I have with them are: - they blatantly copy peoples stuff - they copied ITS med pouch - they blatalanty copied another gear company's med pouch and panel. They fed that company a load if BS about how they wanted to sell their products and what great designs . I happened to be at a conference when NAR was called out on it- it was great - they pulled a real shitty move during the height of the GWOT with the Izzy dressing from performance systems. NAR copied the dressing and packaged it with the Izzys NSN and sold it to the Gov ( which is highly unethical and illegal) they were called out on it and eventually changed the dressing a bit and packaging. Had they not had a good lobbyist, they would have been major repercussions - the knockoff CAT things was a real issue. When the knockoffs starting showing up, NAR didn't care and did nothing to protect the end user ( they eventually did do something) unlike TacMed- who when found out about knockoffs of their SOFT, put out a PDF with the differences to spot the fakes - they " sponsored" a med program for several Gov agencies. In doing so , they controlled course content and forbid any competitors products to be taught/used in the classes. I understand as a business they are pushing the products that they sell. The issue I have with holding back on teaching life saving slills that may be afforded a better chance at survival due to better products. An NSN is only used to tell you what product not brand of a product. The NSN is the same for a Colt M4 as a FN M4. I dealt with supply issues for 12 years in the military and when you order 12 of the same product via NSN from the government you may get a brand XYZ for 2 and ABC for 8 and HBA for 2. so your claim of it being illegal hold no ground they are also a GSA dealer so they do sell NSN products. Now if you said they sold the gov Celex when they ordered Quick Clot now that would be illegal. I just wanted to point out a issue with your reason its not good to spread false hoods or if your not knowledgeable I understand. Please do not take this as an attack on you Metro6. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 3:35:14 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG. There is a very weird subset of people that like to buy EMS items that are well beyond their training. God help the person they come across when they get the chance to "try out" their toys. 
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Posted: 10/27/2014 8:21:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG. No kidding. Seriously. This is a case where discretion is the better part of valor. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 8:46:08 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG. First rule is "do no harm". I'm sure OP learned that in his classes. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:08:40 AM EDT
[#28]
I like the CAT, and they can be had on the cheap on ebay if you buy in lots of 5-10. Just watch out for fakes. I have not seen that RAT aside from the vid posted, but it looks way to narrow IMO.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:10:57 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG. this x1000 as a former medic with 15+ years in field and many more not working as a medic i have seen a real need for a decompression... ONCE |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:53:01 AM EDT
[#30]
That single hand ratcheting tourniquet was actually DROPPED by Ranger Regiment because they were having dudes needing amputations BECAUSE they were cranking them so tight it was causing massive tissue damage underneath the tourniquet itself.
Also, DO NOT FUCKING ATTEMPT A NEEDLE CHEST DECOMPRESSION UNLESS YOU HAVE RECEIVED ACTUAL TRAINING IN PERSON FROM ACTUAL QUALIFIED MEDICAL PERSONNEL (no youtube doesn't fucking count as training)! It's pretty simple, but there's a bit more to it than just slamming a needle into a guy's chest to relieve the pressure, and if you fuck it up you can kill him. The condition a Needle D is for is a condition that actually doesn't occur until about 20-40 minutes after the guy is wounded (at the earliest....). There is NO need to cause further damage because you watched a youtube videoand think it MIGHT help when the guy NEEDS the surgeon at the hospital 20 minutes away. Just tape a piece of plastic to either side of the wound (leave a corner open on one side), and get them to a surgeon. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:57:41 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a very weird subset of people that like to buy EMS items that are well beyond their training. God help the person they come across when they get the chance to "try out" their toys. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG. There is a very weird subset of people that like to buy EMS items that are well beyond their training. God help the person they come across when they get the chance to "try out" their toys. Two truer statements haven't been posted in here in a while. Too any here think the gear makes the man. No matter how much MultiCam you have and how much gear you have, it doesn't make you the operator you will never be. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:36:38 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First rule is "do no harm". I'm sure OP learned that in his classes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG. First rule is "do no harm". I'm sure OP learned that in his classes. classes? what classes? he makes no mention that he is educated on this procedure, just that he read something online. in my opinion, if he were educated on the subject he wouldn't be asking some of the questions he asked such as, "why do you have them" or "what is your most likely use" |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:23:27 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this x1000 as a former medic with 15+ years in field and many more not working as a medic i have seen a real need for a decompression... ONCE Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Please please please please please please please do not buy a decompression needle just because you read it on the internet and think you need it to save the day some day. Unless you are trained to use it by knowing how, where, when, AND WHAT TO DO WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK AND THINGS GO WRONG. this x1000 as a former medic with 15+ years in field and many more not working as a medic i have seen a real need for a decompression... ONCE In my eleven years now of fire/ems... I've never seen one used. Have heard numerious stories from seasoned medics who've done it once or twice. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 7:56:52 PM EDT
[#34]
No, I never claimed to have training or experience. I also said nothing to indicate that I would ever use a needle on myself or others without first recieving proper training.
The only reason I asked about needles is because of something said by another member here who was vocal about the subject. The question about needles was a secondary question. I wouldn't think that one brand of needle would be any better than any other brand, but I've been surprised on this sort of thing before so I thought I would ask. I will eventually get the necessary training (in person, with a professional). In the meantime I thought I would ask about different brands of tourniquets and decompression needles. What's the harm in that? |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 5:50:06 PM EDT
[#35]
I deal with the same system and understand it. They did this before they had an NSN assigned to that product- very sketchy These are 2 different items- just like the Tac Med or H&H dressing have different NSNs, these do top. They got called on it and somehow got it swept under the rug. I guess it pays to have good lawyers and lobbyists. No worries- didn't take offense. I should have explained it better |
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Posted: 10/29/2014 6:20:17 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I never claimed to have training or experience. I also said nothing to indicate that I would ever use a needle on myself or others without first recieving proper training. The only reason I asked about needles is because of something said by another member here who was vocal about the subject. The question about needles was a secondary question. I wouldn't think that one brand of needle would be any better than any other brand, but I've been surprised on this sort of thing before so I thought I would ask. I will eventually get the necessary training (in person, with a professional). In the meantime I thought I would ask about different brands of tourniquets and decompression needles. What's the harm in that? honestly... dump the needle idea and buy an extra TK. also i carry 2 izzy bandages and 2 QC packets as well as 2 tk's in my kit. your more likely to need to treat a sucking chest wound than need to decompress one. |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 6:54:49 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In my eleven years now of fire/ems... I've never seen one used. Have heard numerious stories from seasoned medics who've done it once or twice. But what am I supposed to put on that open line of MOLLE I have? I also have some open space in my med kit... I HAVE to fill it with something. |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 7:30:12 PM EDT
[#38]
Whoever quoted that 30% of prehospital deaths are due to tension pneuomos is out of their minds. In my facility with 5000+ traumas a year, I've seen 2 decompressions in the last calendar year. And one of them was actually treating symptoms of a non-existant pneumo and in fact ended up causing one.
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Posted: 11/3/2014 7:36:46 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But what am I supposed to put on that open line of MOLLE I have? I also have some open space in my med kit... I HAVE to fill it with something. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In my eleven years now of fire/ems... I've never seen one used. Have heard numerious stories from seasoned medics who've done it once or twice. But what am I supposed to put on that open line of MOLLE I have? I also have some open space in my med kit... I HAVE to fill it with something. Wait. You don't dump everything out of your ifak and carry dip and rip its? |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 7:45:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whoever quoted that 30% of prehospital deaths are due to tension pneuomos is out of their minds. In my facility with 5000+ traumas a year, I've seen 2 decompressions in the last calendar year. And one of them was actually treating symptoms of a non-existant pneumo and in fact ended up causing one. Holy shit. |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 9:59:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whoever quoted that 30% of prehospital deaths are due to tension pneuomos is out of their minds. In my facility with 5000+ traumas a year, I've seen 2 decompressions in the last calendar year. And one of them was actually treating symptoms of a non-existant pneumo and in fact ended up causing one. I'm thinking someone at some point saw that as being a statistic on the battlefield and it eventually went to being used as prehospital. |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 10:04:25 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm thinking someone at some point saw that as being a statistic on the battlefield and it eventually went to being used as prehospital. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Whoever quoted that 30% of prehospital deaths are due to tension pneuomos is out of their minds. In my facility with 5000+ traumas a year, I've seen 2 decompressions in the last calendar year. And one of them was actually treating symptoms of a non-existant pneumo and in fact ended up causing one. I'm thinking someone at some point saw that as being a statistic on the battlefield and it eventually went to being used as prehospital. iirc that study came from military field hospitals dealing with combat casualties. |
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Posted: 11/4/2014 9:56:54 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
iirc that study came from military field hospitals dealing with combat casualties. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whoever quoted that 30% of prehospital deaths are due to tension pneuomos is out of their minds. In my facility with 5000+ traumas a year, I've seen 2 decompressions in the last calendar year. And one of them was actually treating symptoms of a non-existant pneumo and in fact ended up causing one. I'm thinking someone at some point saw that as being a statistic on the battlefield and it eventually went to being used as prehospital. iirc that study came from military field hospitals dealing with combat casualties. That's correct. It is all part of the TCCC curriculum. Extremity Hemorrhage 60%, Tension Pneumothorax 33%, Airway Obstruction 6% |
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Posted: 11/4/2014 12:59:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Teaching TCCC to a bunch of mopes at the range is getting people terribly off-track. The over-emphasis on "tactical" field craft (militarization of EMTs zomg), particularly as it pertains to lay rescuers as first responders is a series problem IMO. A UK study found that needle decompressions were performed in up to 30% of trauma patients in the prehospital setting, but only 5.4% were confirmed in retrospect. And this is with professional judgement! A 2006 retrospective analysis of Vietnam casualties found tension ptx to have been responsible for death in only 3-4% of fatally wounded casualties. And the most current research I could find pertaining to exsanguination is from '06 and it suggests that hemorrhage is a root cause of death in only 35-40% of prehospital patients.
A Scandinavian retrospective on mortality in large trauma systems over a ten-year period found that head/brain injuries presented the highest mortality of all trauma patients because of their rapid decompensation, especially in instances where the head injury may be hidden until subtle signs become not-so-subtle (Cushing's triad out of nowhere, GCS from 14 to 4 en route, etc). And really, if you don't know which the way the binaurals are supposed to point, put down the decompression needle. My advice is the same it's always been. Take PRIDE in the basics, where less is more. Learn CPR/AED and really own it, because it works if you're in the right place at the right time. Learn first aid and build a kit accordingly. It should look something like... gauze + kerlix x 8,000, tourniquet, and gloves. And do no harm. |
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Posted: 11/4/2014 2:02:58 PM EDT
[#45]
well said.
our job in the field is rapid stabilization for rapid transport to advanced care. If advanced care is not available the sad fact is nothing we do in the field is going to matter much. the basics always make the difference. plug the holes, pump in the air and circulate the blood. then get them the fuck out of the area to advanced care. If they have internal trauma and or head injuries and all you have is a medkit with no advanced support, they are dead. |
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Posted: 11/4/2014 3:06:59 PM EDT
[#46]
I just finished watching a 6 episode series about PJ's in Afghanistan. very informative. They use TQ's and even show the PJ's using decompression needles and a new toy called the IO IV system, where if the patent lost so much blood that a vain can not be found to start the blood IV they use a drill like device to drill a needle into the bone to give blood through the bone. It shows you how fast you must make decisions and use your training to save a life before the soldier bleeds out. The series is called "inside Combat Rescue" on Netflix and is part of the Nat Geo channel filmed in 2012-2013 I recommend all to watch it.....It really makes you think and think differently about your IFAK/FIRST AID kits and what you may encounter during a SHTF/RWOL scenario. You can watch all 6 episodes on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghKr3XCPCR0[/youtube |
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Posted: 11/4/2014 3:17:14 PM EDT
[#47]
we have had the bone needles on the trucks here for a few years. it's not anything new. luckily i don;t think we have ever had to use one.
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Posted: 11/4/2014 5:08:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Yes, very well said.
I was going to edit the thread title after reading some of the responses here, but I think I'll leave it just in case someone else is thinking of buying a needle off the interwebs. This thread may actually save someone's life by preventing an unneeded needle placement. |
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Posted: 11/4/2014 11:04:18 PM EDT
[#49]
One day someone is going to come on here and tell us how they are going to jail because he tried to do something he was totally unqualified to do and wouldnt it be grand if he filed lawsuit against ARFCOM for allowing threads like these..
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Posted: 11/4/2014 11:55:44 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wouldnt it be grand if he filed lawsuit against ARFCOM for allowing threads like these.. You mean threads where pretty much everybody agrees you shouldn't do it? |
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