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Posted: 8/4/2017 9:41:37 PM EDT
[#1]
Glad they cleared that up. I had serious doubts anyway since it survived the Army testing but not Dallas PD.
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Posted: 8/4/2017 10:06:58 PM EDT
[#2]
http://www.tactical-life.com/news/sig-sauer-p320-dallas-pd/#sig-p320-2
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Posted: 8/4/2017 11:23:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Glad they cleared that up. I had serious doubts anyway since it survived the Army testing but not Dallas PD. |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 12:31:30 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Glad they cleared that up. I had serious doubts anyway since it survived the Army testing but not Dallas PD. |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 12:39:57 AM EDT
[#5]
Delete tech forum not GD.
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Posted: 8/5/2017 11:27:43 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Glad they cleared that up. I had serious doubts anyway since it survived the Army testing but not Dallas PD. With one caveat, I never even bothered to read the posts here on it as I knew it is bullshit gossip. |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 7:37:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
100% this. With one caveat, I never even bothered to read the posts here on it as I knew it is bullshit gossip. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 7:13:19 PM EDT
[#8]
thank you for posting that SIG clarification.
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Posted: 8/6/2017 9:23:31 PM EDT
[#9]
What did they have to say about the video of a 320 igniting a primer on drop number three? Although I don't ever see myself repeatedly dropping any of my firearms, the video is a bit unnerving.
I will admit that I am comfortable carrying a 1911 without a firing pin safety in a good holster, but the drop safe aspect of newer pistol designs is appreciated. I know that I could screw up some day. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 9:36:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What did they have to say about the video of a 320 igniting a primer on drop number three? Although I don't ever see myself repeatedly dropping any of my firearms, the video is a bit unnerving. I will admit that I am comfortable carrying a 1911 without a firing pin safety in a good holster, but the drop safe aspect of newer pistol designs is appreciated. I know that I could screw up some day. There were questions about who posted it and why the person was hiding their face? Dont know either way but it's good questions |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 9:28:45 AM EDT
[#11]
Looks like it might not be rumors. There is another video out from what seems like a creditable source. If there is a problem it's not a big deal, it will get fixed. The P320 has risen to the top of the striker market. When you are on top everyone is out to get you.
The same thing happened to Glock back in the 90s. There was or maybe there still is a whole website dedicated to how the Glock is unsafe. The site was going off a drop test used by a department in CA that involved throwing the Glock like a frisbee. Supposedly doing this would set it off. Supposedly this was addressed. There were other things as well but I don't remember them all. Beretta suffered through the same nonsense when the 92FS was being selected as the M9. There were slide failures not because of a design or material flaw by Beretta but because Winchester was manufacturing the NATO spec 9mm incorrectly. Winchester was basically making almost proof loads. This lead to over pressure and premature wear on the guns. In the end the M9 is better for the failures but Beretta suffered a lot of embarrassment initially. This will all get sorted out in the end.  Sig Sauer P320 Fails Drop Test ETA: It looks like a lighter trigger might be the solution or maybe adding a tab to the trigger like the Glock. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 9:36:23 AM EDT
[#12]
Well, I am guessing the Army will rethink this.
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Posted: 8/7/2017 9:39:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, I am guessing the Army will rethink this. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 9:44:44 AM EDT
[#14]
Without knowing more the video above is, in my opinion, inconclusive.
Do we know if these drop tests were conducted in accordance with SAAMI or ANSI tests? If not what protocols were exceeded? Was the slide cycled and the sear reset between each drop? Lots of questions raised. More importantly what other pistols might fire if subjected to the same drop test conducted by OO? I'm sure any firearm can be made to fire if abused enough. At what point do we determine that testing is good enough? |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 9:47:14 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Without knowing more the video above is, in my opinion, inconclusive. Do we know if these drop tests were conducted in accordance with SAAMI or ANSI tests? If not what protocols were exceeded? Was the slide cycled and the sear reset between each drop? Lots of questions raised. More importantly what other pistols might fire if subjected to the same drop test conducted by OO? I'm sure any firearm can be made to fire if abused enough. At what point do we determine that testing is good enough?  You know how I know you didn't watch the video..
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Posted: 8/7/2017 9:57:57 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know how I know you didn't watch the video..A quick Internet search seems to show that California and Massachusetts require dropping in 6 attitudes, one of which is muzzle up. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:07:51 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I watched it twice actually. A quick Internet search seems to show that California and Massachusetts require dropping in 6 attitudes, one of which is muzzle up.
The point is the gun will fire if dropped and it lands in a certain orientation. The fix seems simple enough. While it seems unsafe now I'm confident everything will be addressed and a solution will come out of this. Then we can all move on to the next controversy. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:18:59 AM EDT
[#18]
The video seems to indicate that the industry tests only call for a drop on the side and with muzzle down. At least that's the way I took it.
Regardless it would seem simple enough for SIG to re-add the trigger tab and/or produce a lighter mass trigger. If for no other reason than to ease concerns over trigger inertia. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:27:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The video seems to indicate that the industry tests only call for a drop on the side and with muzzle down. At least that's the way I took it. Regardless it would seem simple enough for SIG to re-add the trigger tab and/or produce a lighter mass trigger. If for no other reason than to ease concerns over trigger inertia. That video shows the gun going off multiple times from a simple drop. The gun is not safe, it is that simple. It needs to be recalled and fixed. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:29:12 AM EDT
[#20]
SWEET.
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:31:43 AM EDT
[#21]
I'm not downplaying anything. But I'm not going to run around like Chicken Little either.
All I'm saying is until we know more about the Omaha testing and what other pistols may or may not fail the same test we don't have enough info. Regardless, the video will have to prompt a serious response from SIG. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:55:46 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The video seems to indicate that the industry tests only call for a drop on the side and with muzzle down. At least that's the way I took it. Regardless it would seem simple enough for SIG to re-add the trigger tab and/or produce a lighter mass trigger. If for no other reason than to ease concerns over trigger inertia. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:29:36 AM EDT
[#23]
I'm at work and can't watch the video with volume. Is the thought right now that combination trigger weight or inertia and force at that angle on the slide are enough to overcome the internal features preventing striker going forward?
My inderstanding was that SIG already offers a trigger tab for certain law enforcement agencies who want that feature. If so, this issue will be easily and I suspect relatively quickly addressed. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:52:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm at work and can't watch the video with volume. Is the thought right now that combination trigger weight or inertia and force at that angle on the slide are enough to overcome the internal features preventing striker going forward? My inderstanding was that SIG already offers a trigger tab for certain law enforcement agencies who want that feature. If so, this issue will be easily and I suspect relatively quickly addressed. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:52:31 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm at work and can't watch the video with volume. Is the thought right now that combination trigger weight or inertia and force at that angle on the slide are enough to overcome the internal features preventing striker going forward? My inderstanding was that SIG already offers a trigger tab for certain law enforcement agencies who want that feature. If so, this issue will be easily and I suspect relatively quickly addressed. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:55:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is pretty much is what it looks like. The trigger weight is the issue. A lighter trigger might work but then what happens when someone drops the gun from even a higher height. The tabbed trigger looks like the simplest fix. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:57:31 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes that's what they're saying. I want to see one done with Apex Flattys too. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 12:05:40 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ditto. I haven't taken the plunge into flat trigger land yet, but since I'm seriously contemplating a VTAC and/or X-carry (who am I kidding, I'll probably get both) I am wondering if the flat triggers and a tab will play wel together. Or if a tab would even be needed. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 12:20:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In the video they said the lighter trigger in the X-Five did not fire when dropped. I would still question at what height does that change. A flat trigger with a tab isn't a big deal. There are plenty of aftermarket flat triggers for the Glock that are tabbed so I am sure the same can be done for the P320. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ditto. I haven't taken the plunge into flat trigger land yet, but since I'm seriously contemplating a VTAC and/or X-carry (who am I kidding, I'll probably get both) I am wondering if the flat triggers and a tab will play wel together. Or if a tab would even be needed. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 3:07:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like it might not be rumors. There is another video out from what seems like a creditable source. If there is a problem it's not a big deal, it will get fixed. The P320 has risen to the top of the striker market. When you are on top everyone is out to get you. The same thing happened to Glock back in the 90s. There was or maybe there still is a whole website dedicated to how the Glock is unsafe. The site was going off a drop test used by a department in CA that involved throwing the Glock like a frisbee. Supposedly doing this would set it off. Supposedly this was addressed. There were other things as well but I don't remember them all. Beretta suffered through the same nonsense when the 92FS was being selected as the M9. There were slide failures not because of a design or material flaw by Beretta but because Winchester was manufacturing the NATO spec 9mm incorrectly. Winchester was basically making almost proof loads. This lead to over pressure and premature wear on the guns. In the end the M9 is better for the failures but Beretta suffered a lot of embarrassment initially. This will all get sorted out in the end.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA
ETA: It looks like a lighter trigger might be the solution or maybe adding a tab to the trigger like the Glock. "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market" Why would they use such specific wording and leave out the non commercial or non US markets. I'm a Sales Engineer and this is exactly how marketing and sales reps phrase things so they aren't lying but aren't telling the whole truth and I just sit there shaking my head. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 3:12:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Sig has been screwing the pooch lately in many regards. QC and engineering suck.
End of story. Military may be in for a surprise with a design that has never really been proven over time. LOL. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 3:29:49 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As soon as I read that smarmy reply from Sig I figured there was some actual truth to the issue. "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market" Why would they use such specific wording and leave out the non commercial or non US markets. I'm a Sales Engineer and this is exactly how marketing and sales reps phrase things so they aren't lying but aren't telling the whole truth and I just sit there shaking my head. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 6:36:03 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah I noticed that too. That specific phrasing makes me wonder if there has been an incident in the MIL/LEO market. ETA I'm not a Sig hater, I've owned more Sig guns than any other brand. I actually really want to get a P320c for CCW and hope they get this sorted out. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 6:55:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lots of speculation online today this is why Sig lost the FBI contract. If you remember FBI pretty much spec'ed the P320 out in the trials even down to the modular design. Then LAV posted on FB that the P320 "failed FBI test miserably" and that Glock was then selected as the pistol of choice. There are even a couple of posts out there saying they had heard the P320 wouldn't pass the drop test. ETA I'm not a Sig hater, I've owned more Sig guns than any other brand. I actually really want to get a P320c for CCW and hope they get this sorted out. I take everything Lav says with a grain of salt. He gets paid to pimp the Glock. Just like I didn't jump on the band wagon when Bruce Gray released his statement the other day. He has a lot invested in the P320. It benefits him to down play this. Though if the drop test is why the P320 wasn't selected by the FBI it doesn't look good him self proclaiming to be the subject matter expert on the P320 and claiming it's all nonsense only to have another video coming out days later showing the same thing. OO suspending sales is a big deal because OO is losing money. They obviously feel like suspending sales is the right move to make. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 7:07:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Gentlemen, lets keep this on track and factual to the best of our abilities , its already sliding a bit sideways with the internet commando's and unverified video's and I do not want to lock it if I don't have to
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Posted: 8/7/2017 7:22:20 PM EDT
[#36]
I watched that video and I reverse my post above.
That video is VERY disconcerting. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 7:40:59 PM EDT
[#37]
Copied off another forum with a similar discussion. Can anyone comment?
FYI, the Grayguns "cam safety" is an additional part that Grayguns installs as part of its competition trigger work. I think it eliminates this possibility. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 7:45:14 PM EDT
[#38]
Oh neat, didn't know Andrew was working some place else. Looks like he has been at Omaha for 3 months. He always seems to be doing interesting experiments - if he says it can fire when dropped I believe it. Guess I need to order a new trigger.
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Posted: 8/7/2017 7:59:12 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gentlemen, lets keep this on track and factual to the best of our abilities , its already sliding a bit sideways with the internet commando's and unverified video's and I do not want to lock it if I don't have to 
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:04:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Copied off another forum with a similar discussion. Can anyone comment? |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:08:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Agreed. I'd like to see it with the Apex as well as the Grayguns PELT.
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:49:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Was just now able to watch the video with sound. 6% weight difference in the flat v. stock trigger seems to account for the majority of the difference in test results. Wow.
That seems like a razor thin margin between works as intended v. big oopsy. How hard is it to DIY install a tabbed trigger? Anybody make a tabbed flat trigger? |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:51:33 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm not sure what to think, Sig recalled all of the MCX line because they got one gun to slam fire with one brand of 300BO that isn't even that popular. They could have just issued a warning about that brand of ammo.
Id think the same company, with the same interests and lawyers would have recalled the P320 if this is something that could be reproduced. at the same time I don't doubt the Omaha videos, seems there are some conditions that this could occur. Just not sure how likely it would be. Just not sure what to think. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 8:58:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure what to think, Sig recalled all of the MCX line because they got one gun to slam fire with one brand of 300BO that isn't even that popular. They could have just issued a warning about that brand of ammo. Id think the same company, with the same interests and lawyers would have recalled the P320 if this is something that could be reproduced. at the same time I don't doubt the Omaha videos, seems there are some conditions that this could occur. Just not sure how likely it would be. Just not sure what to think. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:39:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As soon as I read that smarmy reply from Sig I figured there was some actual truth to the issue. "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market" Why would they use such specific wording and leave out the non commercial or non US markets. I'm a Sales Engineer and this is exactly how marketing and sales reps phrase things so they aren't lying but aren't telling the whole truth and I just sit there shaking my head. Lawsuit |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:00:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryDamn. If it couldn't get any worse.. Sig needs to go silver back on this issue ASAP before more of these types of things happen.
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:08:43 PM EDT
[#47]
Anyone notice the video is of the non external safety model?
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Posted: 8/7/2017 11:52:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone notice the video is of the non external safety model? |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 2:52:47 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lots of speculation online today this is why Sig lost the FBI contract. If you remember FBI pretty much spec'ed the P320 out in the trials even down to the modular design. Then LAV posted on FB that the P320 "failed FBI test miserably" and that Glock was then selected as the pistol of choice. There are even a couple of posts out there saying they had heard the P320 wouldn't pass the drop test. ETA I'm not a Sig hater, I've owned more Sig guns than any other brand. I actually really want to get a P320c for CCW and hope they get this sorted out. What it comes down to is a fix will be made as pretty much all guns will have an issue until all the kinks are fixed |
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Posted: 8/8/2017 5:41:16 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt it. This is a minor design change it seems. The Beretta M9 has been changed multiple times since it entered service. I'd say it will depend on how Sig is able to address the issue. A simple "2nd Gen" firing system with minor redesigns would be the best solution if it's feasible. |
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