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Basic
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Basic
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Posted: 7/2/2012 2:38:20 PM EST
A couple of days ago I took my AR to my buddies and was having a stove pipe issue. The gun is a factory built Oympic the only modification I have made was a timney trigger. The gun has never had any issues before now. While I had some friends there they noticed that I had gas escaping from the front site. The ejected rounds were just falling out it even looked like some were going up and hitting the front rail. I took the gun down and just replaced the gas tube and cleaned everything. I took the gun back out last night and didn't notice any gas coming out from the sight. But the gun seemed to do it still I did notice that this time it would do it on the 3rd to last casing. When it stove pipes it does have a new round in the chamber to. The gun has never short stroked or not locked back on empty mag. I did notice that when you pull the charge handle back all the way that it does go flush if not farther down than the ejector opening. The buffer and spring are all Original as well as the tube. This gun has had between 2,000 and 3,000 rds fired through it. I really don't want to have to send the gun back to olympic but will if need be.


Thanks
Jonathan
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 2:49:04 PM EST
Maybe an extractor problem. Purchase an upgrade kit. If that is it, it's a $5 fix.

http://www.laruetactical.com/extractor-upgrade-kitar-15mil-specextra-power-5-coil-extractor-spring-extractor-insert-and-viton-o-r
Basic
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 2:54:52 PM EST
It sounds like you're experiencing a failure to eject. I would detail strip and clean the bolt, to include removing the ejector and ejector spring. Ensure that the ejector channel is free of gunk/debris. Drop in a new ejector spring since you have it disassembled. While you're at it, ensure that the extractor spring has good tension and when in doubt, drop in a new one. Oly Arms is unusual in that they don't use an extractor spring insert, but I would drop one in as well. Shown is the current Colt extractor spring with proper black insert.
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 3:06:27 PM EST
check your ejector should move freely and be nice and springy.

make sure your extractor is in good shape as well.

Next Pull your charging handle all the way back does your bolt retract past the ejection port?

It should still be visible approx. 1/4"

your problem is most likely caused by too much rearward travel.

most recent http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_66/577737_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom

first threadhttp://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=559790

my reply in the most recent

there are a couple ways to remedy this problem then,

a new spring could work but probably won't

the correct way is to lap down the receiver extension so you can screw it in further this would require removing it and then grinding cutting or filing it down then re-installing. or i guess you could try a different receiver extension.

I was able to solve mine by swapping bolt carriers between rifles.

The easiest least expensive way is to add some spacers under your buffer spring, pull your buffer and spring out and get some delrin washers(best choice), regular washers or even some quarters that just fit the inner diameter of the buffer tube put in as many as you need so when you pull the charging handle back all the way the bolt still shows in the ejection port ~1/4"

Many people are adverse to putting quarters in their rifle and if you are I would recommend you at least try it first as a trouble shooting step if it fixes the problem you can go the more permanent correct route.

The spacers will be retained by the buffer and spring so there is no need to be concerned with it causing a malfunction.
Basic
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 3:40:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/2/2012 3:42:24 PM EST by 007Kevin]
Wouldn't shimming the buffer tube just be a band-aid to the problem? ETA - or swapping parts or serious gunsmithing?

The rifle worked fine before for a number of rounds and now it does not. Wouldn't something wearing out be suspect? Just trying to learn.
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 4:27:33 PM EST
My model just has the spring and O-ring on the end. The bolt carrier is flush or counter sunk in the ejector window. But Im pretty sure that it aways has been. I did install new buffer and spring and the bolt still goes back to far so I didn't purchase the parts. I think that I am starting to lean towards a ejector or extractor problem. I think that I am going to order some new springs. A guy I know that is very good at building AR's says that the bolt moving back beyond the window shouldn't cause the problem because as soon as the casing comes out of the chamber the ejector should start to push it out. I will take a couple Quaters with me next time I take it out to try but that does seem like a band aid.
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 5:05:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/2/2012 5:09:11 PM EST by Obo2]
the shims are ultimately a band aid but a good diagnostic tool and ultimately would cause no issues as a long term fix.

when the bolt goes back too far the case will bounce off the rear of the ejection port and then dance in the receiver and just sort of fall out or fly forward and hit the rail or your support hand or stovepipe as you have described.

The case does start pivoting out as soon as it clears the barrel extension but doesn't really eject until the bolt stops traveling rearward.

I did miss that it's ran fine for a couple thousand rounds so new springs in your ejector may fix it.

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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 5:12:47 PM EST
I think that I am about to order that kit from larue tactical. I am probably going to order there mil spec tube kit as well. That should fix the bolt going to far back. I am 90% sure that my tube and CTR are Mil spec because the back of the tube is flat. Im assuming that all flat back tube are milspec?
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 5:29:45 PM EST
all milspec tubes are flat backed but not all flat backed tubes are milspec.

commercial can basically be whatever the heck it wants but typically your assumption is correct
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 5:38:29 PM EST
If it is a stock OA carbine, you have a commercial receiver extension (buffer tube).
Basic
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 6:04:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jdurzua:
... I am probably going to order there mil spec tube kit as well. That should fix the bolt going to far back. I am 90% sure that my tube and CTR are Mil spec because the back of the tube is flat. Im assuming that all flat back tube are milspec?


This didn't make sense. The tube kit wouldn't change anything. I would leave it alone till it breaks.
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 6:06:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By 007Kevin:
Originally Posted By Jdurzua:
... I am probably going to order there mil spec tube kit as well. That should fix the bolt going to far back. I am 90% sure that my tube and CTR are Mil spec because the back of the tube is flat. Im assuming that all flat back tube are milspec?


This didn't make sense. The tube kit wouldn't change anything. I would leave it alone till it breaks.


i different tube could screw in further solving the issue of too much rearward bolt travel... probably won't though
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 7:41:02 PM EST
That's what i don't understand why would the bolt all the sudden start going to far back. Even when I dropped in a new buffer and spring. Is there something that could be damaged inside the tube. I want to fixThe rifle correctly not a band aid.
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 8:01:07 PM EST
Your bolt was probably always able to travel back too far while it was new the spring had enough tension and the bcg upper were still mating providing a bit more friction to slow it down.

The shims are a band aid replacing or smithing parts is not.

You may also have luck just trying a heavier buffer
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 8:06:14 PM EST
Well from what I'm reading I should be able to put the larue tactical tune and buffer assembly on and be done with it. Plus I would have some wonderful dillo dust.
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Link Posted: 7/2/2012 8:11:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/2/2012 8:14:37 PM EST by Obo2]
their dillo dust is tasty and i try to squeeze their tactical beverage entry device in to most of my gun pics.

love their index clips too

not seeing the product you are referring to can you post a link?
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:41:42 AM EST
Here you go.
http://www.laruetactical.com/mil-spec-receiver-extension-kit
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:43:27 AM EST
your buffer spring is sacked.
The carrier is rebounding violently off the back of the tube.

Tubb spring is good.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 6:32:37 AM EST
I would agree that it is rebounding off the tube. So should I just throw a new buffer and spring in and see what happens, or just replace the whole tube and all?
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 6:58:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/3/2012 7:00:17 AM EST by muldoon]
I would say, a new spring, only, provided...............

Tube is ok if dimensions are cool.
buffer is ok if weights rattle inside.
get a known good one. from David Tubb !
The $5 springs they give us are only good for a very short ( 5k ) amount of cycles.

as an aside.
a good carrier weight never hurt my 10 different ar15's I have owned.

M
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 12:08:20 PM EST
Well I got me a new spring today from the local shop I will try to run it through its paces tonight and see what is going on. I can diffenatly see the bolt carrier is hitting the lower reciever.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 1:12:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/3/2012 1:15:26 PM EST by Dano523]
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...

<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 3:07:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dano523:
As stated, if the bolt will lock back on the last round out of the mag fired, then the stroke is fine.


Pull all the way back on the charging handle, and confirm that the face of the bolt stops in front of the ejection port window rear edge (1/4" to 3/8" is ideal). If the face of the bolt is flush with the window, then as the buffer bumper goes to compress under normal recoil, then it's going to be behind the back of the ejection window at recoil, with the spent case bounced off the back of the ejection port window, and back into the action.

Washers are a good temp band-aid to trouble shoot, then the ideal solution is to pull the receiver extension, and shorten the end of the tube a few winds so it re-indexes everything correctly again (butt stock index/buffer retaining pin retention), while at the same time, stops the face of the bolt short of the back edge of the ejection window.


And why is the problem now happening,

As stated, could have been a new spring that temp band-aided the problem, or just the buffer bumper is now softer/slightly compressed shorter, and now allowing such.

Bottom line, if you take a look at the spent case that is stove piped, you going to see a nice smile face dent in the case just short of the rim section. That is where is tagged the ejection port window on the way out, and cause it to be deflected back into the action. Stop the spent casing from tagging the back of the ejection port window (bolt stopping in front of the port window) and you will have solved the problem.

To add: Obo2 had you dialed in way back on the solution, and why you did not listen to him is beyond all of us.


I didn't disregard him! There has to be a reason why now after thousands of rounds and multiply cleanings from tube to barrel, that this has started to happen. I don't believe that the moons happen to align right to make this happen. I did add a quarter to the tube and it is now working fine. So now I must figure out now what is out of spec. I did compare the buffer to a new one and they look identical down to the height. If I am to shave the extension tube how the hell do you do it to keep the rim to hold down the pin still and still get enough to change anything.

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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:18:12 PM EST
Post back to let us know how the spring worked out.


Where is this "bolt face should be a 1/4-3/8inch in front of the ejection port when pulling the charging handle back" thing come from??? Both carbine rifles I have, one mil-spec tube and one commercial, the bolt goes behind the ejection port and I do not have stove-pipe problems. The only one that is 1/4" in front of the ejection port is my built lower with Magpul PRS stock and a LaRue Stealth upper.

If the extension is the same as another then I don't see why shaving it down is going to help other than a time waster band-aid. If you have a collapseable stock you don't have much room to lose and still get the fully collapsed position.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:31:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By 007Kevin:
Post back to let us know how the spring worked out.


Where is this "bolt face should be a 1/4-3/8inch in front of the ejection port when pulling the charging handle back" thing come from??? Both carbine rifles I have, one mil-spec tube and one commercial, the bolt goes behind the ejection port and I do not have stove-pipe problems. The only one that is 1/4" in front of the ejection port is my built lower with Magpul PRS stock and a LaRue Stealth upper.

If the extension is the same as another then I don't see why shaving it down is going to help other than a time waster band-aid. If you have a collapseable stock you don't have much room to lose and still get the fully collapsed position.


Stopping the bolt from going all the way back did fix the ejection issue. I went to the range and shot about 20 rds and had the first malfunction. I installed a single quarter in the end of the buffer tube. I then fired 100 rds without a hick up. Every casing placed on the same spot after that. the rifle shot like new. I also noticed that the bolt carrier was hitting the lower receiver. All this was done with the new buffer spring installed.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:02:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/3/2012 5:31:08 PM EST by Dano523]
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...

<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:05:17 PM EST
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...

<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:31:27 PM EST
dano do you happen to know what section it says that about the bolt?

I've tried looking through before when I've tried to help people on here but never saw it...


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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:58:39 PM EST
So I guess the dumb question of the night is instead of cutting and filling down the tube cant I just replace the tube? My local Gun shop keeps the ATI stuff in stock. The kit has a new tube spring and buffer all in one shot. Wouldn't that make it right? Like I said I only needed one quarter to make the weapon function correctly, and I'm damn sure not about to let that be the fix. It would probably be the cheapest!
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 6:06:03 PM EST
it might

would be awesome if your lgs lets you test a couple to see.

or just measure yours and then measure the ones there...
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Link Posted: 7/3/2012 6:21:49 PM EST
Im sure that they will let me put it in to check it. The guys there are awesome. I guess Thursday I'll go check it out. Thanks for all your help and I'll keep you guys posted.
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Link Posted: 7/4/2012 6:53:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2012 6:54:40 AM EST by 007Kevin]
Originally Posted By Dano523:
Originally Posted By 007Kevin:
Post back to let us know how the spring worked out.


Where is this "bolt face should be a 1/4-3/8inch in front of the ejection port when pulling the charging handle back" thing come from??? Both carbine rifles I have, one mil-spec tube and one commercial, the bolt goes behind the ejection port and I do not have stove-pipe problems. The only one that is 1/4" in front of the ejection port is my built lower with Magpul PRS stock and a LaRue Stealth upper.

If the extension is the same as another then I don't see why shaving it down is going to help other than a time waster band-aid. If you have a collapseable stock you don't have much room to lose and still get the fully collapsed position.


http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-23.pdf



I cannot find where it states that in the manual any where. I searched 'bolt' 'bolt face' 'ejection port' 'charging handle' '1/4' '3/8' and saw nothing.

While searching I read over the failure to extract/eject portions and wonder if it isn't the ejector spring that is bad if replacing the extractor spring didn't solve the problem. The ejector is what pushes the casing laterally out the ejection port, the extractor creates the pivot point the casing tips over and out.
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Link Posted: 7/4/2012 7:49:05 AM EST
well so far this was the cheapest quarter fix I've seen last one was $0.75 some of the 9mm guys use as much as $2.00 .

his extractor and ejector appear to be fine based on the bolt travel diagnostic.
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Link Posted: 7/4/2012 7:50:24 AM EST
Yes but when the bolt carrier slams into the receiver it makes the casing tumble causing it not to eject properly and not clearing the chamber. I was sceptical as well unroll I stuck a quarter in the buffer tube and it started ejecting perfectly. Like you though I didn't see anywhere were it referenced the bolt carrier position with charge handle back.
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Link Posted: 7/4/2012 8:34:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2012 8:37:32 AM EST by 007Kevin]
Originally Posted By Jdurzua:
Yes but when the bolt carrier slams into the receiver it makes the casing tumble causing it not to eject properly and not clearing the chamber. I was sceptical as well unroll I stuck a quarter in the buffer tube and it started ejecting perfectly. Like you though I didn't see anywhere were it referenced the bolt carrier position with charge handle back.


If the ejector spring was weak though it would cause a delay in the casing clearing the port due to slower kick out. The case tumbling probably occurs I bet because of this ––> If the bcg slammed in the back of the extension and the casing was delayed clearing it is deflected off the back of the port and back in to stove pipe - this is why stopping the bcg before the back of the port works. If you beefed up the extractor spring it would hold the case longer and be out of harmony with the ejector spring power. I bet this balance needs to be restored. Hence under the manual it is listed as a failure to eject part to be replaced.


You rifle worked before with the bolt traveling past the back of the port so I don't think changing the tube is the answer. Again, I don't see it in the manual (which doesn't mean it isn't there) but under failure to eject solutions it suggests the ejector components to be suspect and replaced.
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Link Posted: 7/5/2012 9:46:24 AM EST
Well installed new tube without quarter and still goes down to far. I guess its time to call Adam at Olympic arms now. I let everyone know what he says.
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Link Posted: 7/5/2012 7:33:54 PM EST
I am trying to find out how long the commercial extension tube compared to the mil spec. I found the mil spec size overall lenght but not for the commercial tube. Thanks.
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Link Posted: 7/5/2012 7:46:28 PM EST
Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

'Twas not the <cough> sweet and innocent <cough> PlaymoreMinds...

<---skips away in frilly skirts to Candyland, leaving gutters and snorkels FAR behind.
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Link Posted: 7/5/2012 8:29:48 PM EST
I understand that the OD is the big difference but I have been told that the comm is longer than the mil spec. But your
Probably right by saying that the only difference on lenght is the outside.
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