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Posted: 2/28/2024 9:58:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Smurgeon: So an optic which utilizes a mil grid pattern which had labeled sub-tensions is to be negated? I am to believe that I must zero using a mark 1 mill higher so that in the fly I would have to remember to add another mil mentally to my holdovers? You may have made sense if you said like in the tremor reticle the dot above is to be zero'd at 25-50 so that the center dot could be used as a hundred yard zero or better yet you could have said the center dot is the zero point (as it is in most scopes) and the dots above are used for under-holds for anything that may be in closer than the 50 or 100 yard zero people have. Instead you just claimed something that isnt even in the nightforce literature. I'm not even going to waste my time entertaining this. Just as anything else you are free to zero how you see fit. Glad you have it figured out. Good luck. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 9:59:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: hoody2shoez]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Probably a good idea. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By hoody2shoez: Would it be beneficial to create a thread simply to understanding reticles? Only posts allowed are factual, technical based posts on how employ the reticle as designed? There's a lot more reticles out there than the simplistic jdm-1 Probably a good idea. You have more overall experience with this-would you be willing to help? @45-Seventy |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:35:35 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: It's all about using the parabolic arc in an advantageous way for macro style hits. Think hits on target not hits in a specific spot on target. You are putting enough arc in the bullet that distance less affected by wind and other outside variables stay in the donut of death. This allows you to dial back to 4ish and take advantage of the better eyebox and optical properties while keeping the threat more centered in the optic for better situational awareness. Think of it as effectively having two reticles married into it. The speed ring and the grid for when the caliber reaches distances that atmospherics have a greater affect. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: Originally Posted By Gatorvet: Can you expand on the reasoning behind this for us slow folks? Thanks It's all about using the parabolic arc in an advantageous way for macro style hits. Think hits on target not hits in a specific spot on target. You are putting enough arc in the bullet that distance less affected by wind and other outside variables stay in the donut of death. This allows you to dial back to 4ish and take advantage of the better eyebox and optical properties while keeping the threat more centered in the optic for better situational awareness. Think of it as effectively having two reticles married into it. The speed ring and the grid for when the caliber reaches distances that atmospherics have a greater affect. Thanks! I think I understand…sounds similar to the donut of death reticle in an ACOG…??? |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:41:34 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gatorvet: Thanks! I think I understand…sounds similar to the donut of death reticle in an ACOG…??? Yes similar concept. |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:28:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HawkinsID]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Marksman14: There is a good reason that every technical thread you start gets locked, and everyone you post in results in you simply repeating yourself with virtually everyone else wondering if you're old enough to attend highschool, let alone actually shoot firearms. You propose a ridiculous argument, it gets shot to shit, and then you double and triple down making it blatantly obvious to anyone reading that you haven't the slightest clue as to what you are talking about. Everything you have stated as a downside to an LPVO is a common sense issue that can be solved with....common sense, and maybe a little bit of training if you're lacking in the common sense area. Use your gear, and keep the power range in an area that you can address unexpected close up threats. It doesn't have to be at 1x to accomplish this, but it surely shouldn't be at 8x. So, use 8x sparingly, and when you have time, cover, concealment, or friends next to you covering that for you. I rarely dial mine past 3-4x, and guess what, it still is useful on close targets in that magnification range too. It may not be that way for *you*, but thats a you problem, not an equipment problem. Nobody here has any concern what is on your rifle. You can like whatever you want. Its the false bullshit that you constantly spread as gospel in the tech forums that I genuinely hope isn't read by a casual browser trying to make an *educated* decision. There is at least one person who has posted in this thread who I'd wager has used an LPVO in anger. There are a few more that have definitely come close. They all disagree with you. I'd suggest you take that as a clue, even though we all know you won't. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Marksman14: Originally Posted By HawkinsID: The problem is when people confuse a game for real life. In a game, you know the targets in advance. In a game, they are stationary. In a game you can shoot the targets in any order you want. In a game an LPVO is good. In real life you might have go to 1x instantly from magnification. In real life, you don’t know where your next threat will be. In real life things aren’t static. You need magnification and instant 1x. An LPVO alone won’t give you that. There is a good reason that every technical thread you start gets locked, and everyone you post in results in you simply repeating yourself with virtually everyone else wondering if you're old enough to attend highschool, let alone actually shoot firearms. You propose a ridiculous argument, it gets shot to shit, and then you double and triple down making it blatantly obvious to anyone reading that you haven't the slightest clue as to what you are talking about. Everything you have stated as a downside to an LPVO is a common sense issue that can be solved with....common sense, and maybe a little bit of training if you're lacking in the common sense area. Use your gear, and keep the power range in an area that you can address unexpected close up threats. It doesn't have to be at 1x to accomplish this, but it surely shouldn't be at 8x. So, use 8x sparingly, and when you have time, cover, concealment, or friends next to you covering that for you. I rarely dial mine past 3-4x, and guess what, it still is useful on close targets in that magnification range too. It may not be that way for *you*, but thats a you problem, not an equipment problem. Nobody here has any concern what is on your rifle. You can like whatever you want. Its the false bullshit that you constantly spread as gospel in the tech forums that I genuinely hope isn't read by a casual browser trying to make an *educated* decision. There is at least one person who has posted in this thread who I'd wager has used an LPVO in anger. There are a few more that have definitely come close. They all disagree with you. I'd suggest you take that as a clue, even though we all know you won't. Every single thing I said was true. There are even very few gamers that don't run an offset red dot because an LPVO is inadequate. Marines put RMRs on their ACOGs. Don't bore me with the "no one likes you" argument. Your emotional over the top response is the problem. This is an "I don't like LPVOs thread". My response in a nutshell is - Yes. They suck. The horror. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:48:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HawkinsID: Every single thing I said was true. There are even very few gamers that don't run an offset red dot because an LPVO is inadequate. Marines put RMRs on their ACOGs. Don't bore me with the "no one likes you" argument. This is an "I don't like LPVOs thread". What were you expecting? Actually, its about people seemingly having difficulty with them, per the thread title. People that potentially have useful tips and hints after spending some time with them happen to be contributing to the thread. Sorry for beating your edit. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:54:42 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: I mentioned this earlier but understanding the reticle is a huge obstacle for the uninitiated when it comes to lpvo's. A lot of people like the razor because the reticle is the easiest to digest. Frankly, once you get away from that style a lot of reticles are garbage for gas gun use and adds to the frustration of the optical limitations for lpvo's. I had a conversation earlier with somebody on this topic. How many people realize the fc-dmx is supposed to be zeroed like this? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/470854/NF_FC-DMx__1__png-3143716.JPG I am going to have to look further into this, I had no idea and zeroed my ATACR using the traditional center dot with 262...do you have anything else showing how the reticle is used after zeroing like that when shooting at distance? I've been using H58/9 on my distance setups, so I figured zeroing it like one of those would allow me to basically use the ATACR the same way....via .mil holds. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:59:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnnyLoco]
[#8]
Precision shooting, counter sniper, hunting, competition, etc. lpvo probably have an advantage. I still think a ta11 is better all around because it’s still a lot lighter than most lpv scopes, doesn’t feel like a brick on top of the rifle, and the glass quality, eye relief and fov is unmatched and blows away most lpvos other than top tier brands, and even though it’s 3.5 power it seems like you can see much more than the crappy lpv scopes. Just slap an rmr on it for up close. And ultimately the acog and is designed to quickly and effectively shoot man sized targets at various ranges, not be the ultimate precision optic, for that I would go nx8.
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Posted: 2/28/2024 12:01:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TobyLazur: Maybe I haven’t used the correct LPVOs, because everyone I’ve used has been so much worse than a reddot up close. @TobyLazur I think it depends on training and practice. I shoot a TR24g and it's a green triangle reticle. Basically it's dialed in so the very tip of the thing is dialed in at 50-200. So at 1x (and it's a true 1x with edge to edge visibility and a good diopter to adjust for the shooter) and the instant any part of the triangle is on target you break the shot. It's as fast to me as a dedicated dot, I've tried it on the clock. Where it shines is distance. Spin it up quick and then you can see exactly what you need to. LPVO should be set at 1x and only dialed up as needed. like a "oh shit what's that moving way over there?" |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 12:10:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hoody2shoez]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Marksman14: I am going to have to look further into this, I had no idea and zeroed my ATACR using the traditional center dot with 262...do you have anything else showing how the reticle is used after zeroing like that when shooting at distance? I've been using H58/9 on my distance setups, so I figured zeroing it like one of those would allow me to basically use the ATACR the same way....via .mil holds. There is nothing to say you cannot use the traditional zero on it. Doing so is fine if you need the smaller sized subtentions closer in for things such as small plates and whatnot. Remember gas guns excel at speed and the fc-dmx tries to make use of that. If you need a high level of precision then perhaps an 8x erector with a 24mm obj lens and fixed parallax is the wrong tool here. Mk262 with a mv of 2650 1.7 mount From 75-175 I am within .2mils. As you can see on an 8x10 I don't need to adjust my poa if I don't want to.  Attached File Attached FileHere you can see a 20mph 90⁰ constant wind is still using holds in the circle out to 350. This is on an 8x10. At 400 I begin to need the stadia lines which is right where 556 starts to get "iffy"-as in atmospherics playing a larger role. Past 400 dialing to a higher Magnification becomes more plausible. Note again this is with a 90⁰ 20mph wind. For those that don't know, that is quite a bit of wind call. NOT ADJUSTED FOR SPIN DRIFT  Attached FileTypically larger calibers can resist the affects of wind and whatnot better so you can get mpb shooting inside the donut. Hence the 2 mil vs the 1 mil Edit***subtensions without changing atmospherics if interested. The red dot signifies the 100y zero. Strelok doesn't allow me to select the exact zero point so I need to manually put a 1 mil come up in.  Attached FileEdit 2***350 with a 10mph 90⁰ wind on an ipsc. You can see where dialing back to 4ish and using an illuminated donut would be helpful here for quick hits  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 12:15:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: You have more overall experience with this-would you be willing to help? @45-Seventy I’m down. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 12:23:31 PM EDT
[#12]
@45-seventy I'm going to be home next week for awhile-I'll start it up then. Thanks for the assistance
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Posted: 2/28/2024 12:24:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: @45-seventy I'm going to be home next week for awhile-I'll start it up then. Thanks for the assistance This week is a little crazy but next week is better for me, too. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 12:28:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#14]
It’s important to keep in mind not all LPVO’s are created equal.
LPVO’s use a reduction lens. They’re not actually a magnified 1X, they’re a demagnified and magnified 2-3X typically. This causes wild shifts in both exit pupil and glass quality between models. So if you see a 1-6 has a 8mm exit pupil at 1X, that means it’s native magnification is 3X. (Objective lens / exit pupil at low mag = native magnification.) Exit pupil will be the same up to that 3X as reduction lenses can’t defeat physics. This is going to perform poorly due to reduced eye box and be a bit harder to maintain image quality. If you see something like a 14mm exit pupil like on the Razor, it’s going to have both a better eye box and a better picture due to being less than 2X native magnification. That 14mm of exit pupil error is going to be very close to the 20mm of a T2. (Vortex has listed it as 24mm before and admitted it was error.) The Leupold 1.25/5 LPVO’s are insanely forgiving in exit pupil as they don’t use a reduction lens. This is also why they are stuck at 1.25/5 and typically don’t exceed 4X. My fire dot model was the closest to loving a LPVO as I’ve ever been, but still couldn’t come to terms with it. End of the day use whatever you shoot best with, but with so many different models of LPVO and ACOG’s, you can’t pick up just one example and write the entire concept off with authority. And that’s before you even factor in use preference too. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 1:15:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: There is nothing to say you cannot use the traditional zero on it. Doing so is fine if you need the smaller sized subtentions closer in for things such as small plates and whatnot. Remember gas guns excel at speed and the fc-dmx tries to make use of that. If you need a high level of precision then perhaps an 8x erector with a 24mm obj lens and fixed parallax is the wrong tool here. Mk262 with a mv of 2650 1.7 mount From 75-175 I am within .2mils. As you can see on an 8x10 I don't need to adjust my poa if I don't want to. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/470854/Screenshot_20231213-201600_Strelok_Pro_j-3143906.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/470854/Screenshot_20231213-201609_Strelok_Pro_j-3143908.JPG Here you can see a 20mph 90⁰ constant wind is still using holds in the circle out to 350. This is on an 8x10. At 400 I begin to need the stadia lines which is right where 556 starts to get "iffy"-as in atmospherics playing a larger role. Past 400 dialing to a higher Magnification becomes more plausible. Note again this is with a 90⁰ 20mph wind. For those that don't know, that is quite a bit of wind call. NOT ADJUSTED FOR SPIN DRIFT https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/470854/Screenshot_20240228-190721_Strelok_Pro_j-3143912.JPG Typically larger calibers can resist the affects of wind and whatnot better so you can get mpb shooting inside the donut. Hence the 2 mil vs the 1 mil Edit***subtensions without changing atmospherics if interested. The red dot signifies the 100y zero. Strelok doesn't allow me to select the exact zero point so I need to manually put a 1 mil come up in. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/470854/Screenshot_20240228-191240_Strelok_Pro_j-3143914.JPG Edit 2***350 with a 10mph 90⁰ wind on an ipsc. You can see where dialing back to 4ish and using an illuminated donut would be helpful here for quick hits https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/470854/Screenshot_20240228-192842_Strelok_Pro_j-3143923.JPG For the sake of consistency, I'm not sure I will change how I do my zero, but that is very good to know, and very handy. Good news is, its very easy to adjust 1 mil to try it out....if I don't like it, return it right back to where it was. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 1:18:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hoody2shoez]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Marksman14: For the sake of consistency, I'm not sure I will change how I do my zero, but that is very good to know, and very handy. Good news is, its very easy to adjust 1 mil to try it out....if I don't like it, return it right back to where it was. Truth. As I said you can zero however you need/want. Using the described zero really let's you use the reticle as two separate reticles for two separate mag ranges-circle for 3-5 tree for 6-8. The 1 mil hold is even more useful with clips-ons. Being able to keep hogs/yotes in the center is very helpful. As with anything else intended use drives setup. I'm going to be creating an actual reticle thread but until then feel free to ask questions about this if you are curious about anything. As a side note I've found less offset at 1x as well like this which is also handy |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 1:46:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DetroitSounds]
[#17]
.02
There is no "Superior" optic per se'. Personal preference and specific intended use. Prefer the ACOG 3.5x35 LED. Longer eye relief without losing much mag. Prefer LED for consistent brightness and longevity vs tritium wearing out, albeit decades. VCOG gets a bad rap. Similar durability as ACOG. The weight difference compared to other LPVO's is negligible. I sold my ATACR 1-8 to buy a VCOG 1-6 (RMR HD piggyback), zero regrets. Prefer EXPS with G45 mag option, for CQB. For someone that doesn't go beyond 100 yards often enough, due to location and terrain, I much prefer the simple BDC's that ACOG/ VCOG 1-6 provide instead of dealing with MIL, or even MOA. If I'm shooting 100-600 more often, I'm going with more of a 4-16. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 2:15:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Just10mm]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: Truth. As I said you can zero however you need/want. Using the described zero really let's you use the reticle as two separate reticles for two separate mag ranges-circle for 3-5 tree for 6-8. The 1 mil hold is even more useful with clips-ons. Being able to keep hogs/yotes in the center is very helpful. As with anything else intended use drives setup. I'm going to be creating an actual reticle thread but until then feel free to ask questions about this if you are curious about anything. As a side note I've found less offset at 1x as well like this which is also handy A reticle deep dive thread sounds like an excellent idea. I wear my Strelok pro out experimenting with zeros and holds.  I look forward to learning. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 2:38:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jkees: You mentioned you have the Gen 2 Razor 1-6 which is a second focal plane correct? Have you tried one thats a first focal plane like the gen 3 1-10? I must preface this by saying I do not run matches, but as far as retical selection goes, it sounds like what it offers is what you are looking for. At low power for quick aquisition its a uncluttered red dot with bracket, but at high power it opens up a fine mil dot patterned reticle for wind and drop. Here's an example of the difference in the reticle between 1x and 10x (I understand this may be more optic than what you are looking for) https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/81510729_10157849633210758_1686688009950330880_o.jpg https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/attachments/img_2160-jpg.7275411/ My Gen 2 HD Razors are SFP. I also have a NF NX8 F1 that is FFP. It took some getting use to having the reticle "zoom with the magnification" but I'm there now. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 2:40:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: False. I've had my ass handed to me in a shoot house by some dude rocking a ta31. This whole idea that gear replaces skillset is an abomination and needs to stop. Agreed. I took "top shooter" in a professional AR15 class filled with KACs, LMTs, BCMs equipped with EOTechs / Aimpoints / Elcans, etc. I was the odd man out and had special permission to use an Arsenal SLR106 with iron sights only. Conversely, I had an old dude smoke me on a run-and-gun with an open sighted Colt SP1 while I was rocking the (at the time) new hotness: FN SCAR-16 with a AP CompM4. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 2:54:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: GaryT1776]
[#21]
Last night I ended up shooting from 0 to 385. All shooting was off-hand. I was wearing a PC and pistol belt.
0-100 Yards RDS was the fastest LPVO was second ACOG RMR was third but 100 yards is massively stretching this optics capability. In the past it has worked GREAT at 50 and in. ACOG was last for speed 100-150 Yards LPVO on 2.5x worked great ACOG worked great but was slower RDS worked but dot bloom was starting to obscure the 12" target ... had to dial the brightness down 200 Yard Gongs were down / no fire 385 Yard LPVO on 6x was easiest, but end-shake after sprinting out to a pre-determined shooting position was more noticeable than the ACOG. ACOG worked really well. Less breathing translated through the lens. RDS ... I was actually about 8 for 10 with it. It took 2 rounds to figure the hold, and then it was surprisingly easy. I fired 240 rounds through a bunch of evolution sprints including mixed mag loads (1, 2 or 3 round so I didn't know when a reload was required ... all optics were fired after the sprint and after a reload with each distance). Conclusions 1) I'm a creature of habit. I enjoyed using the SOCOM with Aimpoint the most. Why? Probably because I've been shooting some version of this set up for about 30 years. Its also the only gun in the test with a 14.5 which makes handling easier. 2) LPVO definitely have benefits. The gongs at my range are rusted steel / dark brown against winter dead grass and muddy berms/backstops. That is to say, they aren't easy to see especially on an overcast / windy day like last night. The extra magnification made PID easier as distances increased. 3) The ACOG / RMR set up seems like a good "I don't know what I need so I need a generalist gun" selection. Its not great at anything but is good at everything. 4) The RDS is unquestionably faster / easier at 100 and in. 5) Don't be a mechanic with one tool in your toolbox. Be a mechanic with a full set of tools so you don't round off a bolt trying to remove it with vice grips. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 3:10:29 PM EDT
[#22]
This is a good video regarding 'speed'
The tl;dr version is (unsurprisingly) lpvo's are harder to be fast than rds. However with enough practice split times end the same and it can absolutely be as fast as a rds. 9 holes |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 6:32:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: Last night I ended up shooting from 0 to 385. All shooting was off-hand. I was wearing a PC and pistol belt. 0-100 Yards RDS was the fastest LPVO was second ACOG RMR was third but 100 yards is massively stretching this optics capability. In the past it has worked GREAT at 50 and in. ACOG was last for speed 100-150 Yards LPVO on 2.5x worked great ACOG worked great but was slower RDS worked but dot bloom was starting to obscure the 12" target ... had to dial the brightness down 200 Yard Gongs were down / no fire 385 Yard LPVO on 6x was easiest, but end-shake after sprinting out to a pre-determined shooting position was more noticeable than the ACOG. ACOG worked really well. Less breathing translated through the lens. RDS ... I was actually about 8 for 10 with it. It took 2 rounds to figure the hold, and then it was surprisingly easy. I fired 240 rounds through a bunch of evolution sprints including mixed mag loads (1, 2 or 3 round so I didn't know when a reload was required ... all optics were fired after the sprint and after a reload with each distance). Conclusions 1) I'm a creature of habit. I enjoyed using the SOCOM with Aimpoint the most. Why? Probably because I've been shooting some version of this set up for about 30 years. Its also the only gun in the test with a 14.5 which makes handling easier. 2) LPVO definitely have benefits. The gongs at my range are rusted steel / dark brown against winter dead grass and muddy berms/backstops. That is to say, they aren't easy to see especially on an overcast / windy day like last night. The extra magnification made PID easier as distances increased. 3) The ACOG / RMR set up seems like a good "I don't know what I need so I need a generalist gun" selection. Its not great at anything but is good at everything. 4) The RDS is unquestionably faster / easier at 100 and in. 5) Don't be a mechanic with one tool in your toolbox. Be a mechanic with a full set of tools so you don't round off a bolt trying to remove it with vice grips. Very cool testing and feedback! |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 6:55:16 PM EDT
[#24]
I use ta31, ta33, and ta47. I wear glasses but primarily for my non dominant eye. With or without glasses I have no issues. I don’t like LVPO’s. I either run an acog or an Aimpoint with qd magnifier.
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Posted: 2/28/2024 8:18:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: Last night I ended up shooting from 0 to 385. All shooting was off-hand. I was wearing a PC and pistol belt. 0-100 Yards RDS was the fastest LPVO was second ACOG RMR was third but 100 yards is massively stretching this optics capability. In the past it has worked GREAT at 50 and in. ACOG was last for speed 100-150 Yards LPVO on 2.5x worked great ACOG worked great but was slower RDS worked but dot bloom was starting to obscure the 12" target ... had to dial the brightness down 200 Yard Gongs were down / no fire 385 Yard LPVO on 6x was easiest, but end-shake after sprinting out to a pre-determined shooting position was more noticeable than the ACOG. ACOG worked really well. Less breathing translated through the lens. RDS ... I was actually about 8 for 10 with it. It took 2 rounds to figure the hold, and then it was surprisingly easy. I fired 240 rounds through a bunch of evolution sprints including mixed mag loads (1, 2 or 3 round so I didn't know when a reload was required ... all optics were fired after the sprint and after a reload with each distance). Conclusions 1) I'm a creature of habit. I enjoyed using the SOCOM with Aimpoint the most. Why? Probably because I've been shooting some version of this set up for about 30 years. Its also the only gun in the test with a 14.5 which makes handling easier. 2) LPVO definitely have benefits. The gongs at my range are rusted steel / dark brown against winter dead grass and muddy berms/backstops. That is to say, they aren't easy to see especially on an overcast / windy day like last night. The extra magnification made PID easier as distances increased. 3) The ACOG / RMR set up seems like a good "I don't know what I need so I need a generalist gun" selection. Its not great at anything but is good at everything. 4) The RDS is unquestionably faster / easier at 100 and in. 5) Don't be a mechanic with one tool in your toolbox. Be a mechanic with a full set of tools so you don't round off a bolt trying to remove it with vice grips. Good stuff, especially the part about the breathing. It’s easy to do static shooting and draw a conclusion that’s entirely different once you add movement and fatigue. Big driver for me becoming a weight snob over the years. The closer i get to 40 the heavier shit gets after a bit.
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USA
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Posted: 2/28/2024 9:44:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: Last night I ended up shooting from 0 to 385. All shooting was off-hand. I was wearing a PC and pistol belt. 0-100 Yards RDS was the fastest LPVO was second ACOG RMR was third but 100 yards is massively stretching this optics capability. In the past it has worked GREAT at 50 and in. ACOG was last for speed 100-150 Yards LPVO on 2.5x worked great ACOG worked great but was slower RDS worked but dot bloom was starting to obscure the 12" target ... had to dial the brightness down 200 Yard Gongs were down / no fire 385 Yard LPVO on 6x was easiest, but end-shake after sprinting out to a pre-determined shooting position was more noticeable than the ACOG. ACOG worked really well. Less breathing translated through the lens. RDS ... I was actually about 8 for 10 with it. It took 2 rounds to figure the hold, and then it was surprisingly easy. I fired 240 rounds through a bunch of evolution sprints including mixed mag loads (1, 2 or 3 round so I didn't know when a reload was required ... all optics were fired after the sprint and after a reload with each distance). Conclusions 1) I'm a creature of habit. I enjoyed using the SOCOM with Aimpoint the most. Why? Probably because I've been shooting some version of this set up for about 30 years. Its also the only gun in the test with a 14.5 which makes handling easier. 2) LPVO definitely have benefits. The gongs at my range are rusted steel / dark brown against winter dead grass and muddy berms/backstops. That is to say, they aren't easy to see especially on an overcast / windy day like last night. The extra magnification made PID easier as distances increased. 3) The ACOG / RMR set up seems like a good "I don't know what I need so I need a generalist gun" selection. Its not great at anything but is good at everything. 4) The RDS is unquestionably faster / easier at 100 and in. 5) Don't be a mechanic with one tool in your toolbox. Be a mechanic with a full set of tools so you don't round off a bolt trying to remove it with vice grips. This basically mirrors my experience--except I couldn't hit shit off-hand at 385 yards--mad props. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 10:56:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: Agreed. I took "top shooter" in a professional AR15 class filled with KACs, LMTs, BCMs equipped with EOTechs / Aimpoints / Elcans, etc. I was the odd man out and had special permission to use an Arsenal SLR106 with iron sights only. Conversely, I had an old dude smoke me on a run-and-gun with an open sighted Colt SP1 while I was rocking the (at the time) new hotness: FN SCAR-16 with a AP CompM4. Why would you need “special permission” to run an AK? |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:04:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Why would you need “special permission” to run an AK? It was an AR centric class with AR specific instruction. I knew one of the instructors so he gave me permission to attend with the AK. The instruction was easy to interpolate to the AK. The AK gave me an advantage at one training evolution but I was fairly disadvantaged at others. Ultimately it all came down to the amount of training BEFORE the class. I had dedicated about a year to the SLR, and was intimate with it. |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:44:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: GaryT1776]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Good stuff, especially the part about the breathing. It’s easy to do static shooting and draw a conclusion that’s entirely different once you add movement and fatigue. Big driver for me becoming a weight snob over the years. The closer i get to 40 the heavier shit gets after a bit. Just wait until you’re in your 50s! For the past five years, I GORUCK a minimum of 3 times a week with a minimum of 56 pounds x 4 to 25 miles (rain, sleet, hail, 100F+, 0F, doesn’t matter. You can’t control the weather or when you’ll need to perform in it). This helps mitigate the impact of a fully loaded LBT 6094 wirh 8.7 pound front and rear plates, trauma kit, 6x 30rd, 3L water bladder, NODs pouch, E&E kit. etc. I also wear a belt with Glock, 2x 19rd, 2x AR 30rd, another IFAK. I’ve trimmed the fat from my gear as I’ve aged. It’s down to the basics now. Anywhere I can shave ounces … I’ll spend money to do it. ETA: I weighed in fully clothed + ruck and fully clothed wirhout ruck this morning. These are DRY weights as I was at the end of my ruck and had consumed all my liquid:   I’ve been taking my 87 pound dog on rucks lately so that adds an entirely new dynamic element. 20oz tumbler in one hand … dog lead in other.. 14 min 30 second miles is my target (regardless of distance). 100% helps on the range . |
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Posted: 2/28/2024 11:57:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: Just wait until you’re in your 50s! For the past five years, I GORUCK a minimum of 3 times a week with a minimum of 56 pounds x 4 to 25 miles (rain, sleet, hail, 100F+, 0F, doesn’t matter. You can’t control the weather or when you’ll need to perform in it). This helps mitigate the impact of a fully loaded LBT 6094 wirh 8.7 pound front and rear plates, trauma kit, 6x 30rd, 3L water bladder, NODs pouch, E&E kit. etc. I also wear a belt with Glock, 2x 19rd, 2x AR 30rd, another IFAK. I’ve trimmed the fat from my gear as I’ve aged. It’s down to the basics now. Anywhere I can shave ounces … I’ll spend money to do it. ETA: I weighed in fully clothed + ruck and fully clothed wirhout ruck this morning. These are DRY weights as I was at the end of my ruck and has consumed all my liquid: Same and I’d guarantee you’re in better shape than me considering your routine haha. I never realized how much weight matters until i found an unlimited outdoor range. You time your shots start and finish and extra weight in your rifle and your trigger pull tell a sad story. Add in run and gun and everything starts feeling like extra gravity. I still run VFG’s so I can go old school broom stick when clamping gets hard to maintain even. Keep killing it and thanks for the reminder I need to get out and do outdoors stuff instead of just scrambling around with a rifle. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 12:02:41 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Same and I’d guarantee you’re in better shape than me considering your routine haha. I never realized how much weight matters until i found an unlimited outdoor range. You time your shots start and finish and extra weight in your rifle and your trigger pull tell a sad story. I’m a member of 2 ranges. One is close to my office so I drop by there at lunch for simple static work. The other is about 30 minutes further out but is one of the nicest I’ve been to. It has a lot of bays, shoot house, etc. Full autos, heck a dude brings a flamethrower out every year post Halloween to toast pumpkins after the annual machine gun pumpkin shoot. I’ve been shooting at this range since 1983. Great place to train. You don’t get a second look if you’re running down range (alone on the bay … for the internet safety nazi’s) in full kit. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 12:07:20 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Same and I’d guarantee you’re in better shape than me considering your routine haha. I never realized how much weight matters until i found an unlimited outdoor range. You time your shots start and finish and extra weight in your rifle and your trigger pull tell a sad story. Add in run and gun and everything starts feeling like extra gravity. I still run VFG’s so I can go old school broom stick when clamping gets hard to maintain even. Keep killing it and thanks for the reminder I need to get out and do outdoors stuff instead of just scrambling around with a rifle. I’m trying to get away from VFGs, but a KAC broomstick just feels right. As you say, when your blood stream starts to get oxygen deprived and your circulation slumps … hands swell and dexterity drops off. In December I completed a marathon with my ruck on, and had the worst sausage fingers ever. I eat really clean but had too much salt leading up to that event. It was worse than the last Ultra (50 mile) I competed with GORUCK. Static line shooters don’t realize the physicality of shooting in cardio dynamics. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 12:09:24 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Keep killing it and thanks for the reminder I need to get out and do outdoors stuff instead of just scrambling around with a rifle. You’re certainly welcome. Put miles on YOU and your gear. Worst that can happen is you’ll live a little longer, haha. Thanks for the encouragement! |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 1:13:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DetroitSounds: .02 There is no "Superior" optic per se'. Personal preference and specific intended use. Prefer the ACOG 3.5x35 LED. Longer eye relief without losing much mag. Prefer LED for consistent brightness and longevity vs tritium wearing out, albeit decades. VCOG gets a bad rap. Similar durability as ACOG. The weight difference compared to other LPVO's is negligible. I sold my ATACR 1-8 to buy a VCOG 1-6 (RMR HD piggyback), zero regrets. Prefer EXPS with G45 mag option, for CQB. For someone that doesn't go beyond 100 yards often enough, due to location and terrain, I much prefer the simple BDC's that ACOG/ VCOG 1-6 provide instead of dealing with MIL, or even MOA. If I'm shooting 100-600 more often, I'm going with more of a 4-16. VCOG doesn't get a bad rap, and the durability is not the same. At least not on the 1-6 models. Optically poor, with massive diopter shift from 1-6x, and they have durability issues. Or at least did. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 1:38:22 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: Last night I ended up shooting from 0 to 385. All shooting was off-hand. I was wearing a PC and pistol belt. 0-100 Yards RDS was the fastest LPVO was second ACOG RMR was third but 100 yards is massively stretching this optics capability. In the past it has worked GREAT at 50 and in. ACOG was last for speed 100-150 Yards LPVO on 2.5x worked great ACOG worked great but was slower RDS worked but dot bloom was starting to obscure the 12" target ... had to dial the brightness down 200 Yard Gongs were down / no fire 385 Yard LPVO on 6x was easiest, but end-shake after sprinting out to a pre-determined shooting position was more noticeable than the ACOG. ACOG worked really well. Less breathing translated through the lens. RDS ... I was actually about 8 for 10 with it. It took 2 rounds to figure the hold, and then it was surprisingly easy. I fired 240 rounds through a bunch of evolution sprints including mixed mag loads (1, 2 or 3 round so I didn't know when a reload was required ... all optics were fired after the sprint and after a reload with each distance). Conclusions 1) I'm a creature of habit. I enjoyed using the SOCOM with Aimpoint the most. Why? Probably because I've been shooting some version of this set up for about 30 years. Its also the only gun in the test with a 14.5 which makes handling easier. 2) LPVO definitely have benefits. The gongs at my range are rusted steel / dark brown against winter dead grass and muddy berms/backstops. That is to say, they aren't easy to see especially on an overcast / windy day like last night. The extra magnification made PID easier as distances increased. 3) The ACOG / RMR set up seems like a good "I don't know what I need so I need a generalist gun" selection. Its not great at anything but is good at everything. 4) The RDS is unquestionably faster / easier at 100 and in. 5) Don't be a mechanic with one tool in your toolbox. Be a mechanic with a full set of tools so you don't round off a bolt trying to remove it with vice grips. This data driven approach makes me smile. Great job. Does this course of fire match your intended use? |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 3:20:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: I’m a member of 2 ranges. One is close to my office so I drop by there at lunch for simple static work. The other is about 30 minutes further out but is one of the nicest I’ve been to. It has a lot of bays, shoot house, etc. Full autos, heck a dude brings a flamethrower out every year post Halloween to toast pumpkins after the annual machine gun pumpkin shoot. I’ve been shooting at this range since 1983. Great place to train. You don’t get a second look if you’re running down range (alone on the bay … for the internet safety nazi’s) in full kit. Unfortunately the place I go only has a firing line. If no one else is there they’ll let you do some dynamic stuff past the line if you know your shit, but it’s been well over a year since I was the only person present. Luckily they have steel at random distances and don’t care about shooting out of your lane so long as you don’t shoot other people’s paper or the 25’s. Transitions make it worth going but I need to figure out something new. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 7:19:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnDough]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HawkinsID: Every single thing I said was true. There are even very few gamers that don't run an offset red dot because an LPVO is inadequate. Marines put RMRs on their ACOGs. Don't bore me with the "no one likes you" argument. Your emotional over the top response is the problem. This is an "I don't like LPVOs thread". My response in a nutshell is - Yes. They suck. The horror. It's not that lpvo is inadequate, its that you can slightly shift and have a 1x optic, so on stages with 200m+ targets followed and or proceeded by 10m targets, a dual magnification system will shave time. Coyotes are a big problem where I live. Ive had shots from 10 to 110m. I leave my nx8 on 3-4x and use my dot up top for close, and magnification for further out. At night typically under white light with my own dog going crazy and unknown target presentation distance, duration, and direction, this is extremely effective. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 7:24:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: I’m trying to get away from VFGs, but a KAC broomstick just feels right. As you say, when your blood stream starts to get oxygen deprived and your circulation slumps … hands swell and dexterity drops off. In December I completed a marathon with my ruck on, and had the worst sausage fingers ever. I eat really clean but had too much salt leading up to that event. It was worse than the last Ultra (50 mile) I competed with GORUCK. Static line shooters don’t realize the physicality of shooting in cardio dynamics. Years ago, arfcom had the laypersons "grapefruit challenge". |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 8:33:55 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: It's not that lpvo is inadequate, its that you can slightly shift and have a 1x optic, so on stages with 200m+ targets followed and or proceeded by 10m targets, a dual magnification system will shave time. Coyotes are a big problem where I live. Ive had shots from 10 to 110m. I leave my nx8 on 3-4x and use my dot up top for close, and magnification for further out. At night typically under white light with my own dog going crazy and unknown target presentation distance, duration, and direction, this is extremely effective. If I’m only shooting to 200 yards, I’ll just leave it at 1X. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 10:08:38 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PacNW5: This data driven approach makes me smile. Great job. Does this course of fire match your intended use? Thanks! It does somewhat match my intended use. More time on-foot-moving would be a closer approximation of some of my envisioned needs, but overall it does address my needs fairly comprehensively. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 10:12:12 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Unfortunately the place I go only has a firing line. If no one else is there they’ll let you do some dynamic stuff past the line if you know your shit, but it’s been well over a year since I was the only person present. Luckily they have steel at random distances and don’t care about shooting out of your lane so long as you don’t shoot other people’s paper or the 25’s. Transitions make it worth going but I need to figure out something new. Having a good place to train is rare, and a true blessing. I've been to ranges with ROs, etc. If it is all you have, it is better than nothing, but static line shooting can only take us so far. You might try connecting with a nearby farmer that will let you use some ground that he isn't using for dynamic training or see if there is a professional training center within driving distance. You probably won't be able to use a paid service as often as you want, but at least you could get some time in. Also, look for run-and-gun meet ups. Ask those guys where they train. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 10:18:05 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: Years ago, arfcom had the laypersons "grapefruit challenge". I couldn't find it with the search function (which I never seem to use effectively). I ASSuME this was a cardio challenge wherein the person was suppose to hold a grapefruit throughout? The severity of my sausage fingers has been sufficient enough to make using the keys to gain access to my house nearly impossible, haha. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 3:27:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HighpowerRifleBrony]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GaryT1776: I couldn't find it with the search function (which I never seem to use effectively). I ASSuME this was a cardio challenge wherein the person was suppose to hold a grapefruit throughout? The severity of my sausage fingers has been sufficient enough to make using the keys to gain access to my house nearly impossible, haha. https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Grapefruit-challenge-2-0/118-741841/ |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 6:20:46 PM EDT
[#44]
As much as I like my K16i, I appreciate the simplicity of the ACOG. No counting hash marks for hold overs, just hold and send it.
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Posted: 2/29/2024 6:53:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryVery interesting! |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 7:23:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#46]
Quote HistoryI’d bet 95% of rifle shooters are sitting supported at a bench shooting a target straight in front of them. That’s not a knock against those people at all, but just goes to show why there are such a wide variance of opinions. We all enjoy different types of shooting and it’s inevitable that creates a different preference in optics. My battle rifle has a LPVO, my primary general use gun has a prism and dot, and my HD rifle has a dot. I can’t imagine using the same optic across all of them. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 8:00:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jhon: As much as I like my K16i, I appreciate the simplicity of the ACOG. No counting hash marks for hold overs, just hold and send it. There are people who think this is difficult? |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 8:40:19 PM EDT
[#48]
I have LPVO and ACOG. Both work. I admit to liking tritium in sights, but I also like being able to turn the brightness up or down on a LPVO that has an illuminated reticle.
My ACOG has worked fabulously for well over 20 years, and a couple of years ago I returned it to Trijicon to have the tritium refreshed. Both optical devices work and serve me well. I support anyone who wants to like, or dislike either one. I have no investment in trying to convince anyone to like or dislike either one. Buy and use whatever you want. |
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Posted: 2/29/2024 9:11:24 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: My battle rifle has a LPVO, my primary general use gun has a prism and dot, and my HD rifle has a dot. I can’t imagine using the same optic across all of them. That's another good point to be made. I think the advantage of an LPVO gets blurred alot when mounted on a lightweight rifle like an AR-15, but when mounted on something that can take better advantage of the range and magnification it can be seen as more of a lightweight alternative to something like a full power scope. I keep a 1-10 razor on my FAL, but just a 2.5x prism on my 16" AR, and would not consider putting an LPVO on the AR unless it was a 20" |
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Posted: 3/1/2024 12:09:45 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Weird that you see lots of dudes winning matches with LPVOs and I can’t remember the last time I saw an ACOG in the top ten. When I first started competition several years ago, ACOGs were already disappearing. There was one guy, though, who loved them so much that he had a tattoo of the ACOG reticle on his calf. |
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