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Posted: 10/11/2015 12:13:11 PM EDT
[#1]
I think it depends on how the lower is stamped but I would check with the gunstore on that. Not sure if they can alter how it is sent to them for the transfer.
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Posted: 10/11/2015 12:15:32 PM EDT
[#2]
It depends if the paperwork says it was sold as a rifle or not. If yes, no. If no, yes. Just get an AR tool for $15 and do the transition yourself after watching a few DIY YouTube instructionals. You will learn from that. You can always ask if they would send the buffer, etc. unassembled. The lower should be marked MULTI CAL.
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Posted: 10/11/2015 12:21:01 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It depends if the paperwork says it was sold as a rifle or not. If yes, no. If no, yes. Just get an AR tool for $15 and do the transition yourself after watching a few DIY YouTube instructionals. You will learn from that. You can always ask if they would send the buffer, etc. unassembled. The lower should be marked MULTI CAL. Ive built 10-12 ARs. Its not the process, its the price. $130 shipped for a complete lower is to good to pass up and a pistol is next on my list. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 2:02:54 PM EDT
[#4]
it is my understanding that it should be marked other when you get it.
you can remove the stock yourself. it is not a rifle according to the fed. if your state is different, I would check on that. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 2:34:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds...
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Posted: 10/11/2015 2:43:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds... I undstand that. I just wanted to know if people have gotten complete lowers, removed the stock and then transferred as other. I also know ill have to talk to my ffl to see if they would. They made a huge scene when I transferred a sawed off sxs with 19" barrels and 27" overall length. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 2:45:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds... No, you won't.  If your FFL fucks up, that's on him. His records won't match what PSA shipped it out as. There's no caliber because it's not a complete firearm, therefore it can't be transferred as a rifle.
OP - I didn't read the other replies, but yes. You can leave the stock on there, it doesn't matter. As long as you pull it off before you attach a short upper you are good. A receiver is transferred as other. Always. Stock or not, it does not matter. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 2:45:51 PM EDT
[#8]
PSA has a Magpul pistol lower for $135 and a non Magpul blem lower for $110. Why not buy one of those?
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Posted: 10/11/2015 2:54:27 PM EDT
[#9]
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PSA has a Magpul pistol lower for $135 and a non Magpul blem lower for $110. Why not buy one of those? Ignorance 
Thanks. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 2:55:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, you won't. If your FFL fucks up, that's on him. His records won't match what PSA shipped it out as. There's no caliber because it's not a complete firearm, therefore it can't be transferred as a rifle.
OP - I didn't read the other replies, but yes. You can leave the stock on there, it doesn't matter. As long as you pull it off before you attach a short upper you are good. A receiver is transferred as other. Always. Stock or not, it does not matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds... No, you won't. If your FFL fucks up, that's on him. His records won't match what PSA shipped it out as. There's no caliber because it's not a complete firearm, therefore it can't be transferred as a rifle.
OP - I didn't read the other replies, but yes. You can leave the stock on there, it doesn't matter. As long as you pull it off before you attach a short upper you are good. A receiver is transferred as other. Always. Stock or not, it does not matter. Does that mean I can put a pistol upper on a lower I bought stripped, and the ffl recorded it as a rifle? |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 4:11:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does that mean I can put a pistol upper on a lower I bought stripped, and the ffl recorded it as a rifle? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds... No, you won't. If your FFL fucks up, that's on him. His records won't match what PSA shipped it out as. There's no caliber because it's not a complete firearm, therefore it can't be transferred as a rifle.
OP - I didn't read the other replies, but yes. You can leave the stock on there, it doesn't matter. As long as you pull it off before you attach a short upper you are good. A receiver is transferred as other. Always. Stock or not, it does not matter. Does that mean I can put a pistol upper on a lower I bought stripped, and the ffl recorded it as a rifle? if it gets that far, and you bought it from the manufactuer, not 2nd hand, then yes. you would still be ok, because the manufactuer would show it went out as a stripped lower not a rifle. all of them keep records like that, so you know if someone is selling you a "factory" rifle, or a franken gun they put together. in some cases it is a serial number batch so they know and the public knows it was parts when it went out. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 4:29:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does that mean I can put a pistol upper on a lower I bought stripped, and the ffl recorded it as a rifle? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds... No, you won't. If your FFL fucks up, that's on him. His records won't match what PSA shipped it out as. There's no caliber because it's not a complete firearm, therefore it can't be transferred as a rifle.
OP - I didn't read the other replies, but yes. You can leave the stock on there, it doesn't matter. As long as you pull it off before you attach a short upper you are good. A receiver is transferred as other. Always. Stock or not, it does not matter. Does that mean I can put a pistol upper on a lower I bought stripped, and the ffl recorded it as a rifle? Yes. As long as it was not built into a rifle already. The FFL filled out the gov paperwork incorrectly. That isn't your problem. I'm not sure how he filled out the caliber when it's not a complete rifle. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 6:29:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Thanks guys, good to know
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Posted: 10/11/2015 6:33:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. As long as it was not built into a rifle already. The FFL filled out the gov paperwork incorrectly. That isn't your problem. I'm not sure how he filled out the caliber when it's not a complete rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds... No, you won't. If your FFL fucks up, that's on him. His records won't match what PSA shipped it out as. There's no caliber because it's not a complete firearm, therefore it can't be transferred as a rifle.
OP - I didn't read the other replies, but yes. You can leave the stock on there, it doesn't matter. As long as you pull it off before you attach a short upper you are good. A receiver is transferred as other. Always. Stock or not, it does not matter. Does that mean I can put a pistol upper on a lower I bought stripped, and the ffl recorded it as a rifle? Yes. As long as it was not built into a rifle already. The FFL filled out the gov paperwork incorrectly. That isn't your problem. I'm not sure how he filled out the caliber when it's not a complete rifle. These last two are of course the correct responses. Beyond required markings on a receiver (serial number, manufacturer, city/state) any other information has no legal significance whatsoever, federally or in any state. And what an FFL correctly or incorrectly marks on a 4473 does not ultimately determine the legal classification of a firearm, nor the legality of any given future configuration of it. If he incorrectly marks your revolver as "long gun", does that make it so? Of course not. If he correctly marks your used lower as "other firearm" but it came from manufacturer as a rifle, does that mean you can still make a pistol from it?. Of course not. A stocked lower receiver is not a rifle or a pistol. It can become a legal or illegal rifle, a legal pistol, or an illegal pistol (firearm made from a rifle), but none of that is determined by either additional information inscribed upon it, nor what an FFL marked on a 4473. - OS |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 9:30:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds... Every time we have a thread about "can I build a pistol from a stripped lower" thread (which seems to be about once a week), we ALWAYS get at least one incorrect response like this. Where is this misinformation coming from? |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 10:01:23 PM EDT
[#16]
I guess I've been misinformed from the FFL dealer in my city... I stand corrected, the pistols I've built started as brand new stripped lowers to avoid any discrepancies.
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Posted: 10/12/2015 1:59:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
if it gets that far, and you bought it from the manufactuer, not 2nd hand, then yes. you would still be ok, because the manufactuer would show it went out as a stripped lower not a rifle. all of them keep records like that, so you know if someone is selling you a "factory" rifle, or a franken gun they put together. in some cases it is a serial number batch so they know and the public knows it was parts when it went out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Make sure the paperwork says "OTHER" instead of "RIFLE"... If it says rifle, you'll run into problems with the Feds... No, you won't. If your FFL fucks up, that's on him. His records won't match what PSA shipped it out as. There's no caliber because it's not a complete firearm, therefore it can't be transferred as a rifle.
OP - I didn't read the other replies, but yes. You can leave the stock on there, it doesn't matter. As long as you pull it off before you attach a short upper you are good. A receiver is transferred as other. Always. Stock or not, it does not matter. Does that mean I can put a pistol upper on a lower I bought stripped, and the ffl recorded it as a rifle? if it gets that far, and you bought it from the manufactuer, not 2nd hand, then yes. you would still be ok, because the manufactuer would show it went out as a stripped lower not a rifle. all of them keep records like that, so you know if someone is selling you a "factory" rifle, or a franken gun they put together. in some cases it is a serial number batch so they know and the public knows it was parts when it went out. i think dpms uses a "k" in the serial number to indicate it left as a lower. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 2:21:15 PM EDT
[#18]
<--------- FFL
Here's my take: Stripped lower: Never built. Recorded as "OTHER" in log and 4473. Customer can build either a rifle or a pistol on this lower. But if he builds a rifle first, it can never be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped with a buttstock installed (intended to be fired from the shoulder). Recorded as rifle in log and on 4473. Can not ever be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped in pistol configuration with no buttstock installed. Recorded as pistol in log and on 4473. Can be converted to rifle. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 2:34:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<--------- FFL Here's my take: Complete lower: Shipped with a buttstock installed (intended to be fired from the shoulder). Recorded as rifle in log and on 4473. Can not ever be a pistol.. Your take is wrong, and as an FFL you should be aware that ATF has said so. If you marked one as long gun that I wanted to transfer, I'd be in touch with nearest regional ATF agent with complaint. Not that it matters a hill of beans legally, but just to make the point. Obviously ATF does not consider the fact that a stock being attached constitutes "intent to shoulder fire" the resultant weapon from the gitgo -- and of course that intent would be legal anyway, once you had made a legal rifle with it, even after first configuring it as a pistol. Hell, you don't even have to change the buffer tube in between configs. - OS |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 2:38:06 PM EDT
[#20]
oops, double tap
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Posted: 10/12/2015 2:41:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your take is wrong, and as an FFL you should be aware that ATF has said so. . . . Quote HistoryQuoted:
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<--------- FFL Here's my take: Complete lower: Shipped with a buttstock installed (intended to be fired from the shoulder). Recorded as rifle in log and on 4473. Can not ever be a pistol.. Your take is wrong, and as an FFL you should be aware that ATF has said so. . . . Got a source. Link? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 2:58:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<--------- FFL Here's my take: Stripped lower: Never built. Recorded as "OTHER" in log and 4473. Customer can build either a rifle or a pistol on this lower. But if he builds a rifle first, it can never be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped with a buttstock installed (intended to be fired from the shoulder). Recorded as rifle in log and on 4473. Can not ever be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped in pistol configuration with no buttstock installed. Recorded as pistol in log and on 4473. Can be converted to rifle. No. You are incorrect. Please help me understand how it can be a rifle without ever being complete. There is no caliber, no barrel, no nothing. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 3:04:03 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. You are incorrect. Please help me understand how it can be a rifle without ever being complete. There is no caliber, no barrel, no nothing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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<--------- FFL Here's my take: Stripped lower: Never built. Recorded as "OTHER" in log and 4473. Customer can build either a rifle or a pistol on this lower. But if he builds a rifle first, it can never be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped with a buttstock installed (intended to be fired from the shoulder). Recorded as rifle in log and on 4473. Can not ever be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped in pistol configuration with no buttstock installed. Recorded as pistol in log and on 4473. Can be converted to rifle. No. You are incorrect. Please help me understand how it can be a rifle without ever being complete. There is no caliber, no barrel, no nothing. So, is it your contention that if I have an AR rifle and split it apart, selling the upper and lower separately, the lower half becomes a receiver again? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 3:28:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, is it your contention that if I have an AR rifle and split it apart, selling the upper and lower separately, the lower half becomes a receiver again? In that instance, no, because of the "if its first assembled state is a rifle it's always a rifle" rule. Once a lower has been assembled into a complete, barreled firearm, it then becomes "defined" as that type of firearm (rifle or pistol, etc.) This is a discussion about "virgin" complete lowers that have never had any upper (or to be specific, a barrel) installed, like this. Here is the relevant ATF letter about using virgin stocked lowers as pistol builds:   |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 3:30:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In that instance, no, because of the "if its first assembled state is a rifle it's always a rifle" rule. Once a lower has been assembled into a complete, barreled firearm, it then becomes "defined" as that type of firearm (rifle or pistol, etc.) This is a discussion about "virgin" complete lowers that have never had any upper (or to be specific, a barrel) installed. Here is the relevant ATF letter about using virgin stocked lowers as pistol builds: http://www.typicalshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/AR-Receiver-Letter-598x778.jpg http://www.typicalshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/AR-Receiver-Letter-page2-598x778.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So, is it your contention that if I have an AR rifle and split it apart, selling the upper and lower separately, the lower half becomes a receiver again? In that instance, no, because of the "if its first assembled state is a rifle it's always a rifle" rule. Once a lower has been assembled into a complete, barreled firearm, it then becomes "defined" as that type of firearm (rifle or pistol, etc.) This is a discussion about "virgin" complete lowers that have never had any upper (or to be specific, a barrel) installed. Here is the relevant ATF letter about using virgin stocked lowers as pistol builds: http://www.typicalshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/AR-Receiver-Letter-598x778.jpg http://www.typicalshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/AR-Receiver-Letter-page2-598x778.jpg Interesting. Thanks. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 3:57:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, is it your contention that if I have an AR rifle and split it apart, selling the upper and lower separately, the lower half becomes a receiver again? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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<--------- FFL Here's my take: Stripped lower: Never built. Recorded as "OTHER" in log and 4473. Customer can build either a rifle or a pistol on this lower. But if he builds a rifle first, it can never be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped with a buttstock installed (intended to be fired from the shoulder). Recorded as rifle in log and on 4473. Can not ever be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped in pistol configuration with no buttstock installed. Recorded as pistol in log and on 4473. Can be converted to rifle. No. You are incorrect. Please help me understand how it can be a rifle without ever being complete. There is no caliber, no barrel, no nothing. So, is it your contention that if I have an AR rifle and split it apart, selling the upper and lower separately, the lower half becomes a receiver again? No. As explained in the last link, that would be illegal. As an FFL, have you done any of these transfers? If you are transferring it as a rifle, what are you putting for caliber? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 4:26:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. As explained in the last link, that would be illegal. As an FFL, have you done any of these transfers? If you are transferring it as a rifle, what are you putting for caliber? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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<--------- FFL Here's my take: Stripped lower: Never built. Recorded as "OTHER" in log and 4473. Customer can build either a rifle or a pistol on this lower. But if he builds a rifle first, it can never be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped with a buttstock installed (intended to be fired from the shoulder). Recorded as rifle in log and on 4473. Can not ever be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped in pistol configuration with no buttstock installed. Recorded as pistol in log and on 4473. Can be converted to rifle. No. You are incorrect. Please help me understand how it can be a rifle without ever being complete. There is no caliber, no barrel, no nothing. So, is it your contention that if I have an AR rifle and split it apart, selling the upper and lower separately, the lower half becomes a receiver again? No. As explained in the last link, that would be illegal. As an FFL, have you done any of these transfers? If you are transferring it as a rifle, what are you putting for caliber? Yes, I have transferred complete lowers. I've actually done it both ways: as a receiver and as a rifle. In cases where the lower has been severed from a complete rifle, I have logged them as rifle. In those cases, I put "NONE" in the caliber field. Entries such as this have passed ATF compliance inspections just fine. I have logged new complete lowers as receivers in the past but recently, I've come to believe they should be logged as rifles. Frankly, I'm not sure where I got that notion but I'm fairly confident my new interpretation came from a discussion with my ATF inspector. I'm not surprised to see that there's a letter out there on this topic but it would also not surprise me if the next letter written takes an entirely different tack. I don't believe it's a question that is clearly addressed in any wide distribution ATF publication or newsletter. BTW, in an open letter dated July 2009 the ATF says a receiver is a receiver in part because it DOESN'T have a buttstock. https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 6:56:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I have transferred complete lowers. I've actually done it both ways: as a receiver and as a rifle. In cases where the lower has been severed from a complete rifle, I have logged them as rifle. In those cases, I put "NONE" in the caliber field. Entries such as this have passed ATF compliance inspections just fine. I have logged new complete lowers as receivers in the past but recently, I've come to believe they should be logged as rifles. Frankly, I'm not sure where I got that notion but I'm fairly confident my new interpretation came from a discussion with my ATF inspector. I'm not surprised to see that there's a letter out there on this topic but it would also not surprise me if the next letter written takes an entirely different tack. I don't believe it's a question that is clearly addressed in any wide distribution ATF publication or newsletter. BTW, in an open letter dated July 2009 the ATF says a receiver is a receiver in part because it DOESN'T have a buttstock. https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download Quote HistoryQuoted:
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<--------- FFL Here's my take: Stripped lower: Never built. Recorded as "OTHER" in log and 4473. Customer can build either a rifle or a pistol on this lower. But if he builds a rifle first, it can never be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped with a buttstock installed (intended to be fired from the shoulder). Recorded as rifle in log and on 4473. Can not ever be a pistol. Complete lower: Shipped in pistol configuration with no buttstock installed. Recorded as pistol in log and on 4473. Can be converted to rifle. No. You are incorrect. Please help me understand how it can be a rifle without ever being complete. There is no caliber, no barrel, no nothing. So, is it your contention that if I have an AR rifle and split it apart, selling the upper and lower separately, the lower half becomes a receiver again? No. As explained in the last link, that would be illegal. As an FFL, have you done any of these transfers? If you are transferring it as a rifle, what are you putting for caliber? Yes, I have transferred complete lowers. I've actually done it both ways: as a receiver and as a rifle. In cases where the lower has been severed from a complete rifle, I have logged them as rifle. In those cases, I put "NONE" in the caliber field. Entries such as this have passed ATF compliance inspections just fine. I have logged new complete lowers as receivers in the past but recently, I've come to believe they should be logged as rifles. Frankly, I'm not sure where I got that notion but I'm fairly confident my new interpretation came from a discussion with my ATF inspector. I'm not surprised to see that there's a letter out there on this topic but it would also not surprise me if the next letter written takes an entirely different tack. I don't believe it's a question that is clearly addressed in any wide distribution ATF publication or newsletter. BTW, in an open letter dated July 2009 the ATF says a receiver is a receiver in part because it DOESN'T have a buttstock. https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download I'd disagree with your interpertation, if the lower with buttstock has never had a barreled upper on it, it is just a reciever and there is a letter. Read the first letter |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 7:07:35 PM EDT
[#29]
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I'd disagree with your interpertation, if the lower with buttstock has never had a barreled upper on it, it is just a reciever and there is a letter. Read the first letter You could be right. One letter does not make a definitive ruling, however. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:38:20 PM EDT
[#30]
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You could be right. One letter does not make a definitive ruling, however. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd disagree with your interpertation, if the lower with buttstock has never had a barreled upper on it, it is just a reciever and there is a letter. Read the first letter You could be right. One letter does not make a definitive ruling, however. How about the frigging directions on the 4473 itself, which states that even if a receiver can ONLY be made into a rifle, it's still "other firearm/receiver"? Do you not see a clue there? No GCA firearm without a barrel can possibly be classified in that condition as a long gun or handgun. That applies to new or used, stripped or complete receivers, stock or not. Doesn't matter what it can legally/illegally be configured as, as it hasn't been when transferred. Indeed, you may have even conceivably broken the law by selling a receiver to someone 18-20 years old, by calling it a "long gun" in field 18 and "rifle" in field 29. - OS |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:49:38 PM EDT
[#31]
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Indeed, you may have even conceivably broken the law by selling a receiver to someone 18-20 years old, by calling it a "long gun" in field 18 and "rifle" in field 29. Would you like the phone number of my ATF IOI so you can tell her what a bad man I am? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:51:26 PM EDT
[#32]
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You could be right. One letter does not make a definitive ruling, however. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd disagree with your interpertation, if the lower with buttstock has never had a barreled upper on it, it is just a reciever and there is a letter. Read the first letter You could be right. One letter does not make a definitive ruling, however. The wording on the 4473 is very clear. Question 18. "If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms" |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:53:07 PM EDT
[#33]
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Would you like the phone number of my ATF IOI so you can tell her what a bad man I am? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Indeed, you may have even conceivably broken the law by selling a receiver to someone 18-20 years old, by calling it a "long gun" in field 18 and "rifle" in field 29. Would you like the phone number of my ATF IOI so you can tell her what a bad man I am? As I said before, if I had a transaction with you handled this way, I would. Mainly just trying to make you see the light so that doesn't happen to you. 'Cause I'm one dynamite kinda guy. 
- OS |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 10:23:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As I said before, if I had a transaction with you handled this way, I would. Mainly just trying to make you see the light so that doesn't happen to you. 'Cause I'm one dynamite kinda guy.
- OS Wouldn't bother me a bit. When I'm wrong, I'm more than willing to admit it. It appears I may be wrong, based on that ATF letter -- seemingly contrary previous open letter not withstanding. ETA: I called ATF. I stand corrected. A complete lower that has never had an upper installed is an "other." I would note that the guy on the phone hmmmed and hawed a bit before delivering an answer. |
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