Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel

Log In

A valid email is required.
Password is required.
Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous
Page / 3
Full of Maple
Avatar
Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Sep 2008
  • USA VT, USA
Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Sep 2008
  • USA VT, USA
  • Posts: 7336
  • Feedback: 100% (111)
  • Status: Online
Posted: 1/27/2011 4:09:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2011 9:18:56 PM EST by vermont2nd]
Proud member of Ranstad's Militia

Tennessee Squire, NRA Life Member

SPECIALIS CONGREGATIO OBVIAM XVII (SS17)
Basic
  • Member
  • Aug 2010
  • USA CO, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Aug 2010
  • USA CO, USA
  • Posts: 13
  • Feedback: 100% (2)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 2/5/2011 3:44:29 PM EST
Don't take it as law, just take it for what its worth.
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhLWI3N­mMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en
Just stumbled across it looking for an answer to something else
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2009
  • USA CA, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2009
  • USA CA, USA
  • Posts: 8
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 2/9/2011 7:08:01 PM EST
The letter I am looking for is the one where the ATF says you can use a standard buffer tube on an AR pistol. I had it saved to my hard drive but lost it.
Basic
  • Member
  • Feb 2010
  • USA USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Feb 2010
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 1263
  • Feedback: 100% (3)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 2/10/2011 7:17:52 PM EST
the cane tip one would be nice too.

but remember the context of that was - for use while sitting in a safe ....
Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 1291
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 2/11/2011 6:53:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/11/2011 7:01:58 PM EST by iNeXile556]

Originally Posted By VictorUnit:
the cane tip one would be nice too.

but remember the context of that was - for use while sitting in a safe ....

That one is actually an archived thread found HERE.

And you are correct. The letter makes it seem like the cane tip is GTG and will not be considered a stock. But you must take it in context to the question that was asked. This thread clears that up.


ETA: Vermont2nd maybe you can extract the letters and repost them here. Please make sure the original question is included also so the letters are not taken out of context.

Also is there a way that you can store these images on the ARFCOM server? Using image Shack or the like is fine but they tend to disappear over time and we loose them again.
"Nothing is more terrifying than ignorance in action" - Goethe, proven true November 4th, 2008

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security". - Thomas Jefferson
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Apr 2008
  • USA ID, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Apr 2008
  • USA ID, USA
  • Posts: 2743
  • Feedback: 100% (10)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 2/11/2011 7:01:15 PM EST
Great thread!
Basic
  • Member
  • Mar 2005
  • USA PA, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Mar 2005
  • USA PA, USA
  • Posts: 3911
  • Feedback: 100% (28)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 2/25/2011 11:56:01 AM EST
Brilliant, BRILLIANT thread.
Bravo.
Team Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Oct 2002
  • USA IN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Oct 2002
  • USA IN, USA
  • Posts: 4841
  • Feedback: 100% (11)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 3/9/2011 1:10:18 PM EST
And be sure to notice the contradiction between the letter to me and the very first letter that was posted but does not have a date on it. In the letter Nixon wrote to me in 2004, right after the AWB ended, he specifically and clearly said that a lower could not have had either a rifle upper OR butt stock attached, lest it be considered a rifle lower.
Then in the first letter posted they reversed that saying that if it has had a butt stock attached but no upper, it was still not a rifle.
Now, right or wrong, this is my thinking. They contradict themselves all the time. So, if you play the logic game, since there is no maximum or minimum length for a pistol barrel, it seems the upper would have little influence on what the build was. But a butt stock, if it has had a butt stock attached, and a butt stock cannot be used on a pistol, one can make an strong argument that if it has had a butt stock attached then it is a rifle lower, as was said in the letter written to me in November 2004.
Since the new letter is more than likely more recent than mine, then one can assume they have changed their minds and you CAN build a pistol out of a lower that has had a butt stock but no upper attached. However, since the only person these letters have any legal weight for is the person the letter is actually addressed to and the person actually in possession of that letter, I think I will stick with what mine says, just in case they change their minds again.
Join the N.R.A.
Beware speaking with a sharp tongue as you are apt to cut your own throat.
On the 8th day, God created HKs.
NOT BigBore, who is owner of ADCO.
Basic
  • Member
  • Mar 2011
  • USA FL, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Mar 2011
  • USA FL, USA
  • Posts: 3
  • Feedback: 100% (71)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 3/28/2011 6:25:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/10/2011 8:54:37 PM EST by crkone]
Any letters on the CAA Saddle?

scratch that, im sending in my form1
Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 1478
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 5/1/2011 3:17:15 PM EST
The question about the Magpul AFG comes up at least once a week.
Espos1111 has already posted this link but I'll do it again.

Page 3, found here, deals with the Magpul AFG.
I'll bet the question still comes up weekly but at least we can point the lazy (i.e. search challenged) to this link.
"Nothing is more terrifying than ignorance in action" - Goethe, proven true November 4th, 2008

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security". - Thomas Jefferson
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 9394
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 5/8/2011 5:47:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
And be sure to notice the contradiction between the letter to me and the very first letter that was posted but does not have a date on it. In the letter Nixon wrote to me in 2004, right after the AWB ended, he specifically and clearly said that a lower could not have had either a rifle upper OR butt stock attached, lest it be considered a rifle lower.
Then in the first letter posted they reversed that saying that if it has had a butt stock attached but no upper, it was still not a rifle.
Now, right or wrong, this is my thinking. They contradict themselves all the time. So, if you play the logic game, since there is no maximum or minimum length for a pistol barrel, it seems the upper would have little influence on what the build was. But a butt stock, if it has had a butt stock attached, and a butt stock cannot be used on a pistol, one can make an strong argument that if it has had a butt stock attached then it is a rifle lower, as was said in the letter written to me in November 2004.
Since the new letter is more than likely more recent than mine, then one can assume they have changed their minds and you CAN build a pistol out of a lower that has had a butt stock but no upper attached. However, since the only person these letters have any legal weight for is the person the letter is actually addressed to and the person actually in possession of that letter, I think I will stick with what mine says, just in case they change their minds again.


I understand where you are coming from. However, I think they got it wrong in your letter and right in the letter after yours. If you read the definition of the various firearms, most of them have some variation of 'propel a projectile(s) by use of an explosive' in the definition. If a receiver has a buttstock but has never otherwise been configured to be able to propel any projectile (a barrel put on) then the actual type of firearm it 'is' has not yet been determined and it is still a 'receiver'.

My $.02
Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Basic
  • Member
  • Jan 2008
  • USA USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Jan 2008
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 1530
  • Feedback: 100% (2)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 5/14/2011 7:27:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2011 7:40:26 AM EST by FIGJAM]
Linky to Franklin Armory's overall length of =>26" is not a handgun or a pistol for the purposes of extra grips. I'm surprised it's not here already considering the desire of those with OAL of 26" and greater to have a forward grip. Nothing ground shaking here but it's an interesting letter.

I only will provide the link because they claim copyright (for commercial purposes only). However, should they yank it or complain, I will archive it and make available as necessary.

OAL =>26" without stock, not handgun or pistol, just a firearm not subject to NFA

Here's the url for those interested in what the letter was pertaining to.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html

Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 1500
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 5/15/2011 7:53:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
Linky to Franklin Armory's overall length of =>26" is not a handgun or a pistol for the purposes of extra grips. I'm surprised it's not here already considering the desire of those with OAL of 26" and greater to have a forward grip. Nothing ground shaking here but it's an interesting letter.

I only will provide the link because they claim copyright (for commercial purposes only). However, should they yank it or complain, I will archive it and make available as necessary.



Here's the url for those interested in what the letter was pertaining to.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html

Franklin has no copyright claim to this letter. It was not authored by them, it is not in their words nor is it a work for hire. In short it is not theirs to copyright.

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Basic
  • Member
  • May 2011
  • USA CA, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • May 2011
  • USA CA, USA
  • Posts: 8
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 5/15/2011 9:18:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
Linky to Franklin Armory's overall length of =>26" is not a handgun or a pistol for the purposes of extra grips. I'm surprised it's not here already considering the desire of those with OAL of 26" and greater to have a forward grip. Nothing ground shaking here but it's an interesting letter.

I only will provide the link because they claim copyright (for commercial purposes only). However, should they yank it or complain, I will archive it and make available as necessary.



Here's the url for those interested in what the letter was pertaining to.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html

Franklin has no copyright claim to this letter. It was not authored by them, it is not in their words nor is it a work for hire. In short it is not theirs to copyright.


I beg to differ. Since the copyright itself required typeset and scanning "artwork," it is indeed copyright-able. Sure, the base document from our artwork can be FOIA'd since it is public, but I expect that would take about as long as writing your own letter. The intent of posting this document was to make it available to the 2A rights community. Individuals are welcome to make a copy for their personal use. We simply want a head start in the commercial field because we spent several months writing several letters, and fronted the expense of sending in a sample firearm to the FTB. (....Which we still have not gotten back yet.)

There are several manufacturers (that will remain unnamed) that have copied what Franklin Armory has done in the past. The XO-26 will probably not be an exception.

Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 1508
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 5/16/2011 5:58:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By franklinarmory:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
Linky to Franklin Armory's overall length of =>26" is not a handgun or a pistol for the purposes of extra grips. I'm surprised it's not here already considering the desire of those with OAL of 26" and greater to have a forward grip. Nothing ground shaking here but it's an interesting letter.

I only will provide the link because they claim copyright (for commercial purposes only). However, should they yank it or complain, I will archive it and make available as necessary.



Here's the url for those interested in what the letter was pertaining to.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html

Franklin has no copyright claim to this letter. It was not authored by them, it is not in their words nor is it a work for hire. In short it is not theirs to copyright.


I beg to differ. Since the copyright itself required typeset and scanning "artwork," it is indeed copyright-able. Sure, the base document from our artwork can be FOIA'd since it is public, but I expect that would take about as long as writing your own letter. The intent of posting this document was to make it available to the 2A rights community. Individuals are welcome to make a copy for their personal use. We simply want a head start in the commercial field because we spent several months writing several letters, and fronted the expense of sending in a sample firearm to the FTB. (....Which we still have not gotten back yet.)

There are several manufacturers (that will remain unnamed) that have copied what Franklin Armory has done in the past. The XO-26 will probably not be an exception.
Actually a scan of a letter is not protected by copyright unless you are the author of the letter. The scan, while an image, does not contain any intellectual or artistic property that belongs to the person doing the scanning. It is much like taking a scan or photo of say, the Mona Lisa, and selling it because you have the "copyright". Copyright means you own the rights to the image, intellectual and/or artistic property thereof to the point that you can lease, assign or sell those rights, or sell copies or extractions of the work. Making a scan, copy or photo of someone elses work, even if you add the typeset "copyright" to it does not make it your property. As the founder of SoCal Image, a stock photo warehousing company, I am well versed in copyright laws. I'm not sure why you would even want to copyright this, how a copy of this letter could even be used by anyone for commercial purposes is beyond me. Any manufacture can make these firearms without a letter, legal is legal.

That aside I don't think anyone here is trying to cash in on your coupon. You do indeed have the jump on the market. The Idea however is not new. I posted the probable legality of exactly the same type firearm in this forum a year or so ago. As well as the legality of making the same type firearm using a .410 shotshell upper.

I applaud you for taking the initiative to get the firearm classified and to market. I myself am not a manufacture and have no plan on making any, even for my personal use as I find the position created by a VFG awkward on any firearm. I support you 100% and wish you only the very best luck in Franklin Armory's endeavors. It's good to see a hardworking, honest company down in the trenches fighting not only for 2A rights, but doing it in one of the harshest states as far as firearms go. Bravo.

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Ryo
Lifetime Shooter
Avatar
Lifetime Member
  • Life Member
  • Aug 2007
  • USA USA
Lifetime Member
  • Life Member
  • Aug 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 4438
  • Feedback: 100% (90)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 5/16/2011 6:46:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/16/2011 6:48:47 PM EST by Ryo]
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
The question about the Magpul AFG comes up at least once a week.
Espos1111 has already posted this link but I'll do it again.

Page 3, found here, deals with the Magpul AFG.
I'll bet the question still comes up weekly but at least we can point the lazy (i.e. search challenged) to this link.


I just thought to mention that it's legitimate. I asked a ATF investigator about this specific letter, and he emailed me that it was valid.

Specifically he said "ATF Firearms Technology Branch says # 7 is correct." when dealing with the AFG in the letter.
illegitimi non carborundum, post proelia praemia
Basic
  • Member
  • Jun 2010
  • USA VA, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Jun 2010
  • USA VA, USA
  • Posts: 75
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 7/20/2011 9:31:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2011 9:32:53 PM EST by CommonwealthKid]
"Flexible Hand Straps" on pistols don't change them to AOWs:

Ryo
Lifetime Shooter
Avatar
Lifetime Member
  • Life Member
  • Aug 2007
  • USA USA
Lifetime Member
  • Life Member
  • Aug 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 4503
  • Feedback: 100% (90)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 7/22/2011 1:07:45 PM EST
Flexible hand strap? Your talking about a strap that goes around the back of your hand?
illegitimi non carborundum, post proelia praemia
Basic
  • Member
  • Jun 2010
  • USA VA, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Jun 2010
  • USA VA, USA
  • Posts: 81
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 7/22/2011 7:43:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2011 7:45:23 PM EST by CommonwealthKid]
Ala:
My Plum Crazy
Just a cinch loop that I can put 2 fingers through.
Basic
  • Member
  • Feb 2001
  • CIV CIV
Basic
  • Member
  • Feb 2001
  • CIV CIV
  • Posts: 18912
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 8/3/2011 2:25:39 PM EST
From this thread: link

This ATF ruling: link

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or "any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no "weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.

Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a "weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a "pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 9594
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 8/3/2011 2:44:16 PM EST
NICE!!

Melson is still a scumbag.
Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Basic
  • Member
  • Dec 2008
  • USA MO, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Dec 2008
  • USA MO, USA
  • Posts: 40
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 8/11/2011 5:04:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
The question about the Magpul AFG comes up at least once a week.
Espos1111 has already posted this link but I'll do it again.

Page 3, found here, deals with the Magpul AFG.
I'll bet the question still comes up weekly but at least we can point the lazy (i.e. search challenged) to this link.


Since that is a 3 page document and wanted something to carry with my pistol, I sent a brief request with pictures and all.
here is there response:

http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/atf-afg.jpg
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 9624
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 8/11/2011 9:17:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By DustyJacket:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
The question about the Magpul AFG comes up at least once a week.
Espos1111 has already posted this link but I'll do it again.

Page 3, found here, deals with the Magpul AFG.
I'll bet the question still comes up weekly but at least we can point the lazy (i.e. search challenged) to this link.


Since that is a 3 page document and wanted something to carry with my pistol, I sent a brief request with pictures and all.
here is there response:

http://www.dustyjacket.com/shooting/atf-afg.jpg


Now if we can just get magpul to make an AFG that is on an 89 degree angle...

Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Basic
  • Member
  • Jan 2004
  • USA KY, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Jan 2004
  • USA KY, USA
  • Posts: 892
  • Feedback: 100% (6)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 8/13/2011 11:58:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2011 12:02:43 AM EST by bp_968]
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
Linky to Franklin Armory's overall length of =>26" is not a handgun or a pistol for the purposes of extra grips. I'm surprised it's not here already considering the desire of those with OAL of 26" and greater to have a forward grip. Nothing ground shaking here but it's an interesting letter.

I only will provide the link because they claim copyright (for commercial purposes only). However, should they yank it or complain, I will archive it and make available as necessary.

OAL =>26" without stock, not handgun or pistol, just a firearm not subject to NFA

Here's the url for those interested in what the letter was pertaining to.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html



*edit* (ignore.. i should read the whole thread before responding)
Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 1662
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 8/14/2011 1:07:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2011 1:08:16 PM EST by iNeXile556]
Here is a letter that member jrzy first posted last year. Although it deals with a PG shotgun, I'm posting it to highlight the VFG on greater then 26" opinion that the ATF recently gave to Franklin Armory. After this opinion there are many people that somehow feel that the 26" rule is a hard fast law. Nothing is further from the truth. Although 26" is a standing opinion by the ATF concerning a firearms concealability, it is not codified as a legal limit and as such firearms could still be considered AOW even if over 26" OAL.

This letter explains the 26" opinion that the ATF is currently using. Let's hope they don't reverse this policy.




The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Basic
  • Member
  • Jan 2006
  • USA MN, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Jan 2006
  • USA MN, USA
  • Posts: 2
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 8/24/2011 5:55:46 PM EST
here's the letter I received yesterday (08/23/2011)
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii160/duflux/1eb93c04.jpg
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii160/duflux/2f7159ae.jpg
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii160/duflux/6f38fc8c.jpg

woohoo!
Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 1700
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 8/26/2011 7:00:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2011 10:46:34 PM EST by vermont2nd]
This is a tacked thread and is used for resource purposes, if you have nothing to add or cannot keep a civil tongue, refrain from posting in it. Further posts like the one I just edited will result in warnings or sanctions. ~vermont2nd
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Member
Avatar
IP
  • Industry Partner
  • May 2010
  • USA AK, USA
IP
  • Industry Partner
  • May 2010
  • USA AK, USA
Instructor
  • Posts: 1037
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 9/3/2011 4:03:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2011 4:13:19 PM EST by MakoDefense]
Israeli Special Forces Training www.MakoDefense.com • Combat-Proven Weapons Accessories and Holsters www.themakogroup.com
Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 1793
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 9/14/2011 2:37:26 PM EST
Re-posted for preservation:
Originally Posted By jrzy:
There has been much speculation if it is legal to install a saddle like the one pictured on the buffer tube of an AR 15 Pistol.
As always I post the Tech branch letters when I get them approved (or denied)
The Saddle does not make this an SBR and it retains it's legal Pistol standing
I want to clear up something that is a very hard rumor to kill.
These letters I get are not just valid for us.
We are an 07 MFGer with an SOT.
The tech branch has told us that they know we pass the letters on to our clients and they are in fact valid for everyone as long as they follow the letter and contents with no modifications that would change whatever is we are doing (see page2)



Here's the Letter



The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2011
  • USA NC, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Sep 2011
  • USA NC, USA
  • Posts: 30
  • Feedback: 100% (14)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 10/6/2011 11:55:30 AM EST
QUESTION: I am about to send a similar request to ATF, and was wondering within what time-frame I can expect a reply?


-sf
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2011
  • USA USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2011
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 15
  • Feedback: 100% (10)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/7/2011 10:09:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By slamfyre:
QUESTION: I am about to send a similar request to ATF, and was wondering within what time-frame I can expect a reply?


-sf


I sent in a letter 07/25/11. I got a letter back today. 12/7/11.
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
  • Posts: 44
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/8/2011 4:23:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/8/2011 4:25:01 PM EST by browningfan91]
I found this letter in a search.

Here is the link


It clearly states that a regular buffer tube may be used on a pistol.

It clearly states that a pistol may be converted to a firearm, and then converted to a rifle, then returned to a pistol configuration.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 9991
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/11/2011 7:01:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By browningfan91:
I found this letter in a search.

Here is the link


It clearly states that a regular buffer tube may be used on a pistol.



Yes it does. So long as you do not have an "unassembled" stock in close proximity that may be attached to make the pistol into a NFA firearm.

Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
  • Posts: 67
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/13/2011 7:54:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By browningfan91:
I found this letter in a search.

Here is the link


It clearly states that a regular buffer tube may be used on a pistol.



Yes it does. So long as you do not have an "unassembled" stock in close proximity that may be attached to make the pistol into a NFA firearm.



The letter does not say that. The scenario described possessing, in close proximity, a stock which could be readily installed onto the pistol buffer tube. The opinion letter said it was lawful.

Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 10000
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/13/2011 12:58:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By browningfan91:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By browningfan91:
I found this letter in a search.

Here is the link


It clearly states that a regular buffer tube may be used on a pistol.



Yes it does. So long as you do not have an "unassembled" stock in close proximity that may be attached to make the pistol into a NFA firearm.



The letter does not say that. The scenario described possessing, in close proximity, a stock which could be readily installed onto the pistol buffer tube. The opinion letter said it was lawful.



Maybe I took it out of context. Could you please quote the part you are refering to.

Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
  • Posts: 69
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/14/2011 12:20:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By browningfan91:
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By browningfan91:
I found this letter in a search.

Here is the link


It clearly states that a regular buffer tube may be used on a pistol.



Yes it does. So long as you do not have an "unassembled" stock in close proximity that may be attached to make the pistol into a NFA firearm.



The letter does not say that. The scenario described possessing, in close proximity, a stock which could be readily installed onto the pistol buffer tube. The opinion letter said it was lawful.



Maybe I took it out of context. Could you please quote the part you are refering to.



Scenario:

"Further, I intend to possess all of the parts to readily convert the firearm from a pistol to firearm and rifle."

Question:

"May the possessor of an AR pistol, which is assembled with a carbine buffer tube, also possess a stock which may readily fit on said buffer tube, if the stock is never attached? Or is the possession of a stock which may readily fit an AR type pistol buffer tube illegal?"



Answer:

Not only did the answer include a copy of the Tnompson supreme court decision which said a kit to make a pistol into a rifle then back to a pistol was fine, but it also said, "The above described scenario is lawful..." That means the scenario of a kit gun with parts in possession to convert the gun back and forth from pistol to firearm, to rifle and back is lawful.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 10004
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/14/2011 3:05:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/14/2011 3:05:36 PM EST by shrikefan]
Originally Posted By browningfan91:

Scenario:

"Further, I intend to possess all of the parts to readily convert the firearm from a pistol to firearm and rifle."

Question:

"May the possessor of an AR pistol, which is assembled with a carbine buffer tube, also possess a stock which may readily fit on said buffer tube, if the stock is never attached? Or is the possession of a stock which may readily fit an AR type pistol buffer tube illegal?"



Answer:

Not only did the answer include a copy of the Tnompson supreme court decision which said a kit to make a pistol into a rifle then back to a pistol was fine, but it also said, "The above described scenario is lawful..." That means the scenario of a kit gun with parts in possession to convert the gun back and forth from pistol to firearm, to rifle and back is lawful.


It looks like they are following the rule of lenity. So as long as you have the 16"+ unassembled barrel along with the unassembled corresponding attachable stock then you are should be OK.

Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
  • Posts: 73
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/15/2011 9:15:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By browningfan91:

Scenario:

"Further, I intend to possess all of the parts to readily convert the firearm from a pistol to firearm and rifle."

Question:

"May the possessor of an AR pistol, which is assembled with a carbine buffer tube, also possess a stock which may readily fit on said buffer tube, if the stock is never attached? Or is the possession of a stock which may readily fit an AR type pistol buffer tube illegal?"



Answer:

Not only did the answer include a copy of the Tnompson supreme court decision which said a kit to make a pistol into a rifle then back to a pistol was fine, but it also said, "The above described scenario is lawful..." That means the scenario of a kit gun with parts in possession to convert the gun back and forth from pistol to firearm, to rifle and back is lawful.


It looks like they are following the rule of lenity. So as long as you have the 16"+ unassembled barrel along with the unassembled corresponding attachable stock then you are should be OK.



I hope so because my friend made a video that shows him doing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbIpWWG0JEg

Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 2159
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/18/2011 10:58:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By browningfan91:

Scenario:

"Further, I intend to possess all of the parts to readily convert the firearm from a pistol to firearm and rifle."

Question:

"May the possessor of an AR pistol, which is assembled with a carbine buffer tube, also possess a stock which may readily fit on said buffer tube, if the stock is never attached? Or is the possession of a stock which may readily fit an AR type pistol buffer tube illegal?"



Answer:

Not only did the answer include a copy of the Tnompson supreme court decision which said a kit to make a pistol into a rifle then back to a pistol was fine, but it also said, "The above described scenario is lawful..." That means the scenario of a kit gun with parts in possession to convert the gun back and forth from pistol to firearm, to rifle and back is lawful.


It looks like they are following the rule of lenity. So as long as you have the 16"+ unassembled barrel along with the unassembled corresponding attachable stock then you are should be OK.


I'm done trying to convince you that your interpretation of the letter is wrong, but this highlighted part is defiantly wrong. The Thompson case never addressed the assembly of a pistol to rifle and back. It dealt ONLY with the issue of whether the kit packaged together with a short barrel constituted "making" of making a SBR.
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
  • Posts: 77
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 12/27/2011 5:18:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2011 5:20:03 PM EST by browningfan91]
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By browningfan91:

Scenario:

"Further, I intend to possess all of the parts to readily convert the firearm from a pistol to firearm and rifle."

Question:

"May the possessor of an AR pistol, which is assembled with a carbine buffer tube, also possess a stock which may readily fit on said buffer tube, if the stock is never attached? Or is the possession of a stock which may readily fit an AR type pistol buffer tube illegal?"

Answer:

Not only did the answer include a copy of the Tnompson supreme court decision which said a kit to make a pistol into a rifle then back to a pistol was fine, but it also said, "The above described scenario is lawful..." That means the scenario of a kit gun with parts in possession to convert the gun back and forth from pistol to firearm, to rifle and back is lawful.


It looks like they are following the rule of lenity. So as long as you have the 16"+ unassembled barrel along with the unassembled corresponding attachable stock then you are should be OK.


I'm done trying to convince you that your interpretation of the letter is wrong, but this highlighted part is defiantly wrong. The Thompson case never addressed the assembly of a pistol to rifle and back. It dealt ONLY with the issue of whether the kit packaged together with a short barrel constituted "making" of making a SBR.


It is not illegal to possess an AR pistol assembled with an m4 receiver extension tube and possess a stock which may readily fit on that buffer tube/receiver extension.

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbIpWWG0JEg

Letter
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4xDZlk5vthcMjhmZmZkYWYtMjRhOC00MjQ0LWFiY­mYtYjJjMjJiYTZkNzU0

Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
  • Posts: 85
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 1/11/2012 7:57:56 PM EST
The guy, kwikrnu, who was banned here has several more letters about AR-15 pistols posted on his website.


http://www.kwikrnu.com/batfe_letters.htm
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 10152
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 1/12/2012 5:39:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By browningfan91:
The guy, kwikrnu, who was banned here has several more letters about AR-15 pistols posted on his website.


http://www.kwikrnu.com/batfe_letters.htm


Some interesting stuff and some pretty effed up stuff in those letters. Have to do a 4473 and NICS check to do a form 4 transfer? So I guess the presumption that they do some sort of background check with the $200 transfer tax is bogus.

Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 2261
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 1/14/2012 7:24:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2012 7:26:28 PM EST by iNeXile556]
Anyone taken in by the BS from the above posts simply google kwikrnu to find real story behind this fool.

Vermont2nd, can you delete these BS posts so we can keep this thread on track and useful please.
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 10163
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 1/14/2012 11:17:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Anyone taken in by the BS from the above posts simply google kwikrnu to find real story behind this fool.

Vermont2nd, can you delete these BS posts so we can keep this thread on track and useful please.


I'm not sure who you are refering to as the fool but kwikrnu asked some pretty specific questions from the atf and received answers. What is wrong with that?

Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 2263
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 1/15/2012 9:02:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/15/2012 9:03:06 AM EST by iNeXile556]

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Anyone taken in by the BS from the above posts simply google kwikrnu to find real story behind this fool.

Vermont2nd, can you delete these BS posts so we can keep this thread on track and useful please.


I'm not sure who you are refering to as the fool but kwikrnu asked some pretty specific questions from the atf and received answers. What is wrong with that?


Like I said google this clown and ask yourself if this is someone you want representing responsible gun owners. He has been banned from every gun forum on the internet, including this one.

He lives near me and I have meet him on many occasions, he is a complete attention seeking idiot that should not be allowed to own firearms. He is the poster child for gun control and the control nazis regularly use his antics as ammunition to further their cause.

Ar15.com forbids linking to or even mentioning some other sites and this guy and his site should be included in this group. He was banned here, why continue promoting his stupidity and his web site?
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2007
  • USA USA
  • Posts: 10172
  • Feedback: 100% (119)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 1/15/2012 11:52:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Anyone taken in by the BS from the above posts simply google kwikrnu to find real story behind this fool.

Vermont2nd, can you delete these BS posts so we can keep this thread on track and useful please.


I'm not sure who you are refering to as the fool but kwikrnu asked some pretty specific questions from the atf and received answers. What is wrong with that?


Like I said google this clown and ask yourself if this is someone you want representing responsible gun owners. He has been banned from every gun forum on the internet, including this one.

He lives near me and I have meet him on many occasions, he is a complete attention seeking idiot that should not be allowed to own firearms. He is the poster child for gun control and the control nazis regularly use his antics as ammunition to further their cause.

Ar15.com forbids linking to or even mentioning some other sites and this guy and his site should be included in this group. He was banned here, why continue promoting his stupidity and his web site?


The web address posted above was for some very insightful letters to and from the atf. I understand that other aspects of the letter writer's life may not be under some of the best circumstances. A stopped clock and all that...

Proud Member of Team Ranstad...The Fantastic Bastards

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Circa 11/08 :(

Would cockroach semen make a good gun lube?
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Nov 2010
  • USA TN, USA
  • Posts: 90
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 1/22/2012 1:17:28 PM EST
My friend has some good insight and has obtained very good responses from the ATF through his letter writing. I saw that he put a new letter yesterday about the possession of spare parts for an AR.

http://www.kwikrnu.com/BATFE%20opinion%20letters/batfe%20atf%20letter%20response%201-12-2012%20ar%20parts.pdf
Deo vindice
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Jan 2009
  • USA TN, USA
Military
  • Posts: 2445
  • Feedback: 100% (40)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 3/10/2012 10:09:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2012 10:15:54 PM EST by iNeXile556]

Originally Posted By browningfan91:
My friend has some good insight and has obtained very good responses from the ATF through his letter writing. I saw that he put a new letter yesterday about the possession of spare parts for an AR.

link removed

Whatever, bye-bye browningfan or should I say kwikrnu, seems the staff had the good sense drop the ban hammer on you, AGAIN!


Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
Please don't link to his site anymore.

Oh, he won't be back with his latest account anytime soon.
link
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Rise And Rise Again Until Lambs Become Lions.
Basic
  • Member
  • Mar 2012
  • USA NC, USA
Basic
  • Member
  • Mar 2012
  • USA NC, USA
  • Posts: 2
  • Feedback: 0% (0)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 3/28/2012 2:02:03 PM EST
I currently have a letter out to the BATFE specifically asking about, making a pistol, converting the pistol to rifle, then converting that rifle back to pistol. will let you guys know what they says at some point.
Member
Avatar
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Feb 2012
  • USA IL, USA
Bronze
  • Team Member
  • Feb 2012
  • USA IL, USA
  • Posts: 8
  • Feedback: 100% (9)
  • Status: Offline
  • Link To Post: Click
Posted: 3/28/2012 9:08:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By ncgunrights:
I currently have a letter out to the BATFE specifically asking about, making a pistol, converting the pistol to rifle, then converting that rifle back to pistol. will let you guys know what they says at some point.


That concern was addressed directly by the ATF last year. It is not illegal under the NFA or GCA to convert a pistol into a rifle and then back to a pistol. It is illegal, however, to convert a rifle into a pistol.

ATF language: A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). Link: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
Arrow Left Previous
Page / 3
Top