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Posted: 1/18/2012 10:28:33 AM EDT
Yesterday at the shot show I stopped by the Wolf booth to ask about the availability of 6.5 Grendel in the future as it's been difficult to find in my area. The nice lady working at the booth told me they are working on a bi-metal and poly 6.5 Grendel rounds currently. And although the poly ammo is not going as well as they would like the bi-metal casing rounds are doing very well in testing and they expect 2nd quarter availability.
Bill Alexander was at the booth and they brought out a demo round. 
When I inquired on pricing for the round I was told to expect about the same as the 7.62x39 rounds they offer, which I guess means in the 30 cent a round range. - Time to start building another rifle I guess. The polyformance is 110 grain bimetal fmj 2620 fps The wolf military classic will also be 110 gr but be available in fmj, hp, and sp and same 2620 Those wishing for reloadable will still have the mil gold 120/123 gr mpt and sp rounds 2615 and 2600 fps |
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Posted: 1/18/2012 10:51:13 AM EDT
[#1]
A Polymer case?
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Posted: 1/18/2012 11:10:55 AM EDT
[#2]
yeah in an effort to cut costs many ammo manufacturers either have or are designing plastic case ammo like this - rounds can be up to 50% lighter as well apparently.
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Posted: 1/18/2012 11:28:29 AM EDT
[#3]
WOW this is interesting! Im guessing no reloading though correct?
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Posted: 1/18/2012 11:46:09 AM EDT
[#4]
I know most people don't reload steel and polymer is probably one time use I'd imagine.
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Posted: 1/18/2012 12:18:14 PM EDT
[#5]
That is good news but, I bet I will still have to mail order the ammo. That's just part of living in a small town. Any news about new magazine MFG's for the 6.5 Grendel?
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Posted: 1/18/2012 1:21:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Yesterday at the shot show I stopped by the Wolf booth to ask about the availability of 6.5 Grendel in the future as it's been difficult to find in my area. The nice lady working at the booth told me they are working on a bi-metal and polymer case 6.5 Grendel rounds currently. And although the polymer cased ammo is not going as well as they would like the bi-metal casing rounds are doing very well in testing and they expect 2nd quarter availability. I have to think she meant polymer-coated steel cases –– which is what's used in Wolf's Polyformance line –– rather than the cases actually being made of polymer. It's interesting that she spoke of polymer and bi-metal cases, whereas a few weeks ago Bill Alexander reported that it had been decided to use lacquered cases. Also interesting that the originally reported, 1st quarter availability has been delayed to the 2nd quarter. It's beginning to sound like the same old song... 
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Posted: 1/18/2012 3:05:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
yeah in an effort to cut costs many ammo manufacturers either have or are designing plastic case ammo like this - rounds can be up to 50% lighter as well apparently. http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/PCPAmmo.jpg What about the heat that traditional brass cases remove from the firearm when ejected? Plastic just doesn't conduct heat like metal. |
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Posted: 1/18/2012 3:40:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
yeah in an effort to cut costs many ammo manufacturers either have or are designing plastic case ammo like this - rounds can be up to 50% lighter as well apparently. http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/PCPAmmo.jpg What about the heat that traditional brass cases remove from the firearm when ejected? Plastic just doesn't conduct heat like metal. i'll never buy plastic ammo. Just putting that out there. Why dont they make plastic bullets to go with it too? |
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Posted: 1/18/2012 3:44:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
yeah in an effort to cut costs many ammo manufacturers either have or are designing plastic case ammo like this - rounds can be up to 50% lighter as well apparently. http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/PCPAmmo.jpg Tried this stuff in the early 00s it sucks, not this particular brand but poly cased ammo |
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Posted: 1/18/2012 3:56:08 PM EDT
[#10]
When I saw "polymer" I immediately thought "polymer coated steel" too. I can't imagine the stuck case/extractor torn case head threads if they start selling plastic cased ammo. I will begin plotting my 6.5 build now.
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Posted: 1/18/2012 4:24:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Those pictures of PCP ammo ARE polymer cases, which is very interesting.
AA's tests confirmed that the laquer cases ran much better than polymer did. I'm anxiously awaiting a picture of the ammo they showed you! |
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Posted: 1/18/2012 4:30:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yesterday at the shot show I stopped by the Wolf booth to ask about the availability of 6.5 Grendel in the future as it's been difficult to find in my area. The nice lady working at the booth told me they are working on a bi-metal and polymer case 6.5 Grendel rounds currently. And although the polymer cased ammo is not going as well as they would like the bi-metal casing rounds are doing very well in testing and they expect 2nd quarter availability. I have to think she meant polymer-coated steel cases –– which is what's used in Wolf's Polyformance line –– rather than the cases actually being made of polymer. It's interesting that she spoke of polymer and bi-metal cases, whereas a few weeks ago Bill Alexander reported that it had been decided to use lacquered cases. Also interesting that the originally reported, 1st quarter availability has been delayed to the 2nd quarter. It's beginning to sound like the same old song... I'm betting she meant bi-metal bullets, which is what the steel cased lines have been in other calibers. We're already almost 1/3 into the first quarter, so I'm not surprised. Wolf and the Russians march to their own drummer. |
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Posted: 1/18/2012 7:01:54 PM EDT
[#13]
you may be right on the poly cased but based on what I am seeing most big names are working on them - what is holding them back is simply the devolopment of the polymer which some have gotten much farther with.
first post updated |
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Posted: 1/22/2012 9:57:00 AM EDT
[#14]
Natec tried the polymer thing and it didnt work well for them. I am looking forward to the steel cassed aammo though thanks for the info!
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Posted: 1/22/2012 2:09:43 PM EDT
[#15]
W-T-H why would they even make the laquerd $hit... isn't that Laquered $hit, known to make the AR15 platform fail..??? what are they thinking...??? why cant they just make them in Zinc like the silver bear and get it over with...!!!
.30 a round... is like what 6.00 a box of 20... 
either way its going to be fun...
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Posted: 1/22/2012 3:40:46 PM EDT
[#16]
meh, why not simply reload? Its not rocket science and saves you money, win win
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Posted: 1/22/2012 3:46:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
W-T-H why would they even make the laquerd $hit... isn't that Laquered $hit, known to make the AR15 platform fail..??? what are they thinking...??? why cant they just make them in Zinc like the silver bear and get it over with...!!! .30 a round... is like what 6.00 a box of 20...
either way its going to be fun... My ARs shoot that lacquered shit just fine, if your wont get them fixed |
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Posted: 1/22/2012 3:49:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Don't believe anything until the product starts shipping. Steel cased ammo was announced in like 2009
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Posted: 1/22/2012 4:03:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Yep, I had the same conversation with them. They are apparently just about ready to import...we'll see!
Here's the pic I took; 
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Posted: 1/23/2012 6:18:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Yep, I had the same conversation with them. They are apparently just about ready to import...we'll see! Here's the pic I took; http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7159/6728852903_596f243d04_b_d.jpg This gave me a chubby
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Posted: 1/23/2012 10:26:21 PM EDT
[#21]
When you see guys chambering their AK's more and more in this, with a quad-stack magazine from US Palm, that will be interesting.
If you are concerned about steel-cased ammo, and want to run it in higher volume, make sure your chamber is polished and you have the correct Grendel chamber. Another approach is to use a nitro-carburized barrel. |
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Posted: 1/23/2012 10:40:28 PM EDT
[#22]
I want a 6.5 but not because of this.
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Posted: 1/24/2012 8:23:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
I want a 6.5 but not because of this. Yeah, the steel case ammo has zero effect on my relationship with the Grendel, as I have loads of Lapua brass, but I don't want to be dropping it into the grass or mud while hunting. I might actually buy a bunch and see how my 16" Grendel runs on high volume though...won't cost much to find out. |
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Posted: 1/24/2012 1:11:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I want a 6.5 but not because of this. Yeah, the steel case ammo has zero effect on my relationship with the Grendel, as I have loads of Lapua brass, but I don't want to be dropping it into the grass or mud while hunting. Ditto - and the same reason why my Grendel mag was filled up with the Hornady factories the other day in the treestand. No lost sleep over lost brass. |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 10:36:15 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Natec tried the polymer thing and it didnt work well for them. I am looking forward to the steel cassed aammo though thanks for the info! this. I remember seeing a blog from some SF-type who claimed they were experimenting with them because of the light weight. The accuracy of the NATEC 5.56 rounds was described as "minute of trashcan". |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 11:24:16 AM EDT
[#26]
When I think of space-age polymer and 50,000-55,000 psi, I think "vaporwear". Brass takes a lot of pressure and heat, and deals with it somehow. It's still amazing to me that it does, but somehow it does. To expect the same out of plastic is very optimistic, since we're not talking about low pressures as in shotshells, that used to use cardboard paper.
I would love the weight reduction, but we need some more developments in polymurgy...yes I claim that term. |
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Posted: 2/1/2012 1:36:41 PM EDT
[#27]
well i have never shot the laquered steel case ouit of an AR15 platform... but that is mainly becuase i have a buddy that works at an indoor range that rents a few AR's but they make them buy the range ammo... from high cost brass stuff to some low cost zinc coated ammo... but they wont let the laquared stuff in there rifles becuase they said that in high volumes the laquer starts to gum up in the chamber... and after it cools tehere is a thin coat of laquer inside the chamber and if you start up again it will cuase a stuck case problems... but the zinc steal case has always run flawlessly...
i have run the steal cased polycoated tula in a few of my Ar's and never had a problem... but i have always stayed away from the laquered, becuase of the stories... i thought when i read somewhere that wolf went to the same manufacture as silver bear i figured they would either go with the zinc case or maybe the poly coated case... it sux that this is going to come out in laquered coated case's...!!!  i hope i dont have problems running it in high volumes..!!!
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Posted: 2/1/2012 5:41:20 PM EDT
[#28]
One thing to remember is that the Eastern European countries have run lacquer coated ammo for decades with minimal problems. They run them in machine guns, which get imcomparably hotter for longer periods of time than AR's run by civilians generally do, and still have no problems.
A lot of the issues with steel case in AR's is urban legend passed on and on and on from a few incidents. I'm betting that there are a lot of guys here that have run steel case lacqued ammo in AR's for years and had no issues. |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 1:15:30 AM EDT
[#29]
i kinda figured that alot of the stories you hear about are he said - she said... but i never really chanced it becuase i could easily pick up the zink stuff for about .30-.40 more abox or the poly coated for about .20 less and i have ran both of those with no problems so i never tried the laquared ammo in an ar... but i have shot the crap out of it in the Ak platform with no problems but i always figured the "no Issue" was becuase of the Ak platform that runs flawlessly no matter what... plus its bolt and chamber doesnt run as hot, becuase of the piston operation system, and all that jazz... so its not a real comparison... and yeah all the other operating systems that run the laquared stuff with no problems, are completly differant than the "real tight" tolarances of the DI Ar15 platform..
i dont know... i'm a little skeptic now..!!! but dont get me wronge im going to try my damn hardest to run as much of the 6.5 steel case as i can... i would just hate to finally get it and run into bullshit problems... especially when they coould have just as easily went with a poly coated or zinc coated case..!!! i have been thinking about this alot.. pondering and pondering... hopeing and a wishing... maybe somebody that is running the 5.45's that is running a regular DI system and shooting a bunch of laquared coated cases will chim in and let us know if has shown to be ok, to run laquared cases in a DI ar15 platform, IN HIGH VOLUMES....????? |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 1:23:21 AM EDT
[#30]
trying to stay positive...
 i'm sure if they said it has tested good then they are doing a good torture test, to make sure its going to run in the AR platform...!!!
hopefully things will work out for us... |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 6:31:35 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
One thing to remember is that the Eastern European countries have run lacquer coated ammo for decades with minimal problems. They run them in machine guns, which get imcomparably hotter for longer periods of time than AR's run by civilians generally do, and still have no problems. A lot of the issues with steel case in AR's is urban legend passed on and on and on from a few incidents. I'm betting that there are a lot of guys here that have run steel case lacqued ammo in AR's for years and had no issues. Sir, You forgot to mention that these Eastern European countries run AKs whose cartridges have a much more pronounced taper that assists in extraction. Additionally the chambers of the AKs are more generous. Harrison from ARperformance mentioned in 68forum that melonited chambers are better able to handle steel case ammo (slicker) |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 6:51:46 AM EDT
[#32]
where are/ who has the best Grendel barrels and uppers?
I have been debating on a 6.8 or a Grendel upper, and I am just about sold now w/ the wolf coming out. Also, being newbish, what free float tubes will work over a 6.5 barrel and a gas block? Standard, or something special? |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 8:30:55 AM EDT
[#33]
Sir,
You forgot to mention that these Eastern European countries run AKs whose cartridges have a much more pronounced taper that assists in extraction. Additionally the chambers of the AKs are more generous. Harrison from ARperformance mentioned in 68forum that melonited chambers are better able to handle steel case ammo (slicker) Not really, I didn't. I understand that the case taper may play a part, but all weapons require that the chambers be reasonably tight to function correctly. There is only so much headspace and chamber variation that can be adjusted. Tighter chambers than the Grendel might have problems, but the Grendel chamber was designed from the outset to function with a wide variety of ammunition and steel case ammunition was one of the options from day one. So some of the other 6.5 chambers that function with brass cased Grendel ammunition might have issues, but the ammunition has been tested extensively in Grendel chambers without problem. Melonited chambers may help with some cartridges, but testing has shown that the Grendel chamber functions fine with the lacquered cases. I hope to try a melonited chamber in 5.56, since I really like that process and appreciate the theory behind the idea. |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 9:07:18 AM EDT
[#34]
Proper porting and dwell time is critical when using steel cases.
Many of the carbine gas 5.56s had or have issues with steel cases because they are over-gassed. Buy a quality firearm instead of a cheap $375 upper and there shouldn't be problems coated or not. |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 9:53:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Proper porting and dwell time is critical when using steel cases. Many of the carbine gas 5.56s had or have issues with steel cases because they are over-gassed. Buy a quality firearm instead of a cheap $375 upper and there shouldn't be problems coated or not. A very good point. It seems that those who want very inexpensive things ALWAYS want very inexpensive things, and combining the two often creates problems. It's hard to go back and find the original sources of the complaints with steel 5.56 ammo at this point, but you have to wonder if it was because people with "budget" builds were trying to maintain their "budget" status by using the cheapest ammo available, and then complained that the combination didn't work. I know of at least one guy who I deeply respect, and who fires more 5.56 ammo than anyone I know, and through a variety of arms, that says that steel case is not an issue in any decent 5.56. I'll trust him beyond ANY internet rumors I see, because he fires in hot climates and VERY cold climates, and in dry climates and damp climates. He has no agenda, other than encouraging people to train, and train a lot. He calls it like he sees it. |
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Posted: 2/2/2012 10:09:38 AM EDT
[#36]
I've actually had and continue to witness plenty of problems with AK's using any kind of ammunition, but the Finnish military brass-cased ammo seems to run the best of all, and is unbelievably accurate.
As far as AK's running less hot in the chamber area compared to an AR, I doubt that highly, but haven't shot them both side by side with a laser thermometer to check. I do know that AK's heat up way faster than AR's, and can't take the same kind of high volume shooting that an AR does in 5.56. It would be interesting to run a comparison of the two designs, both chambered in 7.62x39, but I have also seen 5.56 AK's heat up quickly, subjectively hotter than an AR from my last course where I ran a few mags through a SAIGA I believe. If I had a gun that didn't run steel case that I wanted to run a lot of steel case through, I would look at polishing the chamber, or just using a Melonited barrel. I have 4 Melonited 5.56 barrels from AR Performance and DSA, and they eat ammo like it's candy at Halloween, but I haven't run any steel case through them. I have experienced plenty of stuck cases that required "kick-starting" the AK charge handle to get it un-seized, and it is a PITA to fix. This usually happens on Romanian guns. There are a few European AK variants that have trucked along like champs, but I still see plenty of problems with them, and their performance in extreme cold weather really surprised me, as I was expecting them to shine under those conditions, when in fact, the opposite happens course after course. Every course I run or attend, I see more problems with AK's than AR's, and the process of correcting the malfs usually takes longer to fix, creating a training distraction that becomes more and more annoying, especially when dealing with team-level drills that we focus on, rather than an individual flat range course where the attendees can correct their malfs without interfering much with the course of instruction/schedule. We'll see how it works out with the Grendel, but I still expect there to be issues when people start running steel case through some of the knock-off chambers especially. |
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Posted: 2/5/2012 9:35:48 AM EDT
[#37]
error feel free 2 delete
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Posted: 2/5/2012 9:36:32 AM EDT
[#38]
error feel free 2 delete
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Posted: 2/5/2012 9:37:09 AM EDT
[#39]
error=feel free 2 delete
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Posted: 2/5/2012 10:02:41 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
how many people would actually use lacquer coated steel/bimetal cased ammo in their high end direct impingement Grendel upper? I would definitely. So I have to buy a new barrel every 5000-10000 rounds, fine by me. The stuff is still going to be accurate enough to kill coyotes, and steel out to 500 or more. Maybe not every shot, but that just adds to the fun, almost like gambling
Obviously for recreational use. I have enough stuff to load over 10,000 rounds of brass-cased match/hunting ammo if need be. |
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Posted: 2/7/2012 6:57:48 PM EDT
[#41]
tag and bump
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Posted: 2/8/2012 12:25:50 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
yeah in an effort to cut costs many ammo manufacturers either have or are designing plastic case ammo like this - rounds can be up to 50% lighter as well apparently. http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/PCPAmmo.jpg Tried this stuff in the early 00s it sucks, not this particular brand but poly cased ammo Same here. |
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Posted: 2/8/2012 2:47:08 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
where are/ who has the best Grendel barrels and uppers? I have been debating on a 6.8 or a Grendel upper, and I am just about sold now w/ the wolf coming out. Also, being newbish, what free float tubes will work over a 6.5 barrel and a gas block? Standard, or something special? Tula is projected to have a cheap 6.8 round this year. "Cheap" is for the 5.56 guys though... As for the FF tubes, most if not all for the 5.56 will work fine with a G. |
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Posted: 2/9/2012 1:41:41 PM EDT
[#44]
Yes, the Grendel uses the same receivers as a standard AR, and handguards attach to the upper receiver, so any standard AR15 handguard is compatible.
Grendel has been waiting on steel case for some time now, and it looks like this year will be the ticket. It has been a teaser for about 3 years so far, IIRC. |
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Posted: 2/9/2012 3:10:29 PM EDT
[#45]
hell im just waiting on my barrel. AA said 4-6 weeks that was jan 1st. Now they have no idea when it will be ready
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Posted: 2/9/2012 7:51:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Natec tried the polymer thing and it didnt work well for them. I am looking forward to the steel cassed aammo though thanks for the info! this. I remember seeing a blog from some SF-type who claimed they were experimenting with them because of the light weight. The accuracy of the NATEC 5.56 rounds was described as "minute of trashcan". Minute of trash can was one thing, we had a customer with a colt that they didnt get along with. The very front of the neck would break off upon extraction and the next round would spear it and fail to go into battery |
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Posted: 2/14/2012 5:52:27 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Natec tried the polymer thing and it didnt work well for them. I am looking forward to the steel cassed aammo though thanks for the info! this. I remember seeing a blog from some SF-type who claimed they were experimenting with them because of the light weight. The accuracy of the NATEC 5.56 rounds was described as "minute of trashcan". Minute of trash can was one thing, we had a customer with a colt that they didnt get along with. The very front of the neck would break off upon extraction and the next round would spear it and fail to go into battery That's the two-piece case problem. That sounds like the spiral-wound brass British Martini round from the late 1800s. The Brits would be holding off charges of screaming Zulus and have their hot weapons ripping the cases apart on extraction. charming. |
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Posted: 2/14/2012 8:45:36 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Natec tried the polymer thing and it didnt work well for them. I am looking forward to the steel cassed aammo though thanks for the info! this. I remember seeing a blog from some SF-type who claimed they were experimenting with them because of the light weight. The accuracy of the NATEC 5.56 rounds was described as "minute of trashcan". Minute of trash can was one thing, we had a customer with a colt that they didnt get along with. The very front of the neck would break off upon extraction and the next round would spear it and fail to go into battery That's the two-piece case problem. That sounds like the spiral-wound brass British Martini round from the late 1800s. The Brits would be holding off charges of screaming Zulus and have their hot weapons ripping the cases apart on extraction. charming. But it didnt separate where the brass met the plastic like we all expected it just broke the front of the neck off. I will stick with known materials for now |
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Posted: 2/14/2012 9:38:44 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
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Natec tried the polymer thing and it didnt work well for them. I am looking forward to the steel cassed aammo though thanks for the info! this. I remember seeing a blog from some SF-type who claimed they were experimenting with them because of the light weight. The accuracy of the NATEC 5.56 rounds was described as "minute of trashcan". Minute of trash can was one thing, we had a customer with a colt that they didnt get along with. The very front of the neck would break off upon extraction and the next round would spear it and fail to go into battery That's the two-piece case problem. That sounds like the spiral-wound brass British Martini round from the late 1800s. The Brits would be holding off charges of screaming Zulus and have their hot weapons ripping the cases apart on extraction. charming. But it didnt separate where the brass met the plastic like we all expected it just broke the front of the neck off. I will stick with known materials for now Well, today's "known" materials weren't always that way. Innovation has to start somewhere. I'm willing to invest a little cash into a new product if it is well engineered. I'll definitely do my research first though. |
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Posted: 2/14/2012 9:55:13 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
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Natec tried the polymer thing and it didnt work well for them. I am looking forward to the steel cassed aammo though thanks for the info! this. I remember seeing a blog from some SF-type who claimed they were experimenting with them because of the light weight. The accuracy of the NATEC 5.56 rounds was described as "minute of trashcan". Minute of trash can was one thing, we had a customer with a colt that they didnt get along with. The very front of the neck would break off upon extraction and the next round would spear it and fail to go into battery That's the two-piece case problem. That sounds like the spiral-wound brass British Martini round from the late 1800s. The Brits would be holding off charges of screaming Zulus and have their hot weapons ripping the cases apart on extraction. charming. But it didnt separate where the brass met the plastic like we all expected it just broke the front of the neck off. I will stick with known materials for now Well, today's "known" materials weren't always that way. Innovation has to start somewhere. I'm willing to invest a little cash into a new product if it is well engineered. I'll definitely do my research first though. I am all for Innovation. As long as I am not funding R&D
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