So I almost shot a guy in the face today. - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - So I almost shot a guy in the face today. (Page 2 of 5)

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:22:06 PM EDT

[#1]

No repercussions. Shoot him and take John Doe down to the morgue.

Glad you're OK.

I am not familiar with anything other than the NRA one that has been advertised and no, I don't have it.
Familiar meaning I have heard of it.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:31:55 PM EDT

[#2]

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You were armed and ready.

You may not have felt like it at the time but you always had the upper hand.

Glad you're ok.

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That was my thinking. I've got a pistol ready to go, unholstered, just not in immediate view. It would take just a second to bring it to bear.

I'd think that even a moron would catch a clue areguing with a man who keeps his right hand behind his back the whole time.

The nurses said my left leg was shaking the entire time. I didn't notice it. I was just focused on this jerk.

When he screamed " make me leave" I almost showed it, but I was afraid of the whole "brandishing " thing.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:33:09 PM EDT

[#3]

Did I say how much I hate junkies?

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:33:51 PM EDT

[#4]

Man there sure are a fuck ton of terrible stories about disabled vets these days in GD. All centering around drugs, alcohol or road rage.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:35:08 PM EDT

[#5]

How are you going handle the next one? Any differently?

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:35:14 PM EDT

[#6]

NOLO to Isle 1 please Nolo to isle 1 please

Glad your ok and didn't have to shoot him, it never ends there

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:35:19 PM EDT

[#7]

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The cops said I need to swear a warrant about physical threats (since they didn't witness that, they got him on property damage). Go to court and get an official trespass order (although they have already trespassed him so I'm not sure the difference) and get the court to issue a restraining order so he loses his guns and CCW (if he has them).

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Damn doc, that's messed up. Glad you & your staff weren't physically harmed. The dirtbag is lucky you had restraint.

I really hope the prosecutor works with you to throw the book at him and not give him some BS disorderly conduct charge.

Hopefully you:

- fire him if an existing pt
- trespass him obviously
- ex-parte or no contact or whatever

I actually was gonna look at that NRA Carry Guard myself so interested to see what others say.

The cops said I need to swear a warrant about physical threats (since they didn't witness that, they got him on property damage). Go to court and get an official trespass order (although they have already trespassed him so I'm not sure the difference) and get the court to issue a restraining order so he loses his guns and CCW (if he has them).

Do it. They came out to help you. Now help them do their job. Press charges how ever you can. This guy might kill the next Dr.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:36:30 PM EDT

[#8]

Too much info

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:37:35 PM EDT

[#9]

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Did I say how much I hate junkies?

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Agree, the junkies can't die fast enough.

Not that it matters giving our proximity to one another, I would never convict you if you had pulled the weapon and used it!

Glad you didn't have to. Dealing with a good shoot is never fun no matter the positive outcome.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:38:34 PM EDT

[#10]

Vets are the worst narc seekers I have ever seen in 14 yrs of working the ER.

They walk into triage and they have their speech.

I am a vet, I served this country, I am a 10 on the pain scale and need 2 mg of Dilaudid STAT. Then have the Dr write an order for that every 4 hrs..for breakthru pain I need 20 mg oxy and 350 mg Soma.

Umm no, go back to the VA.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:40:51 PM EDT

[#11]

Buy a personal liability policy offered by your home/car insurance company.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:41:11 PM EDT

[#12]

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Excellent advice. Any ideas on such a lawyer in North Carolina?

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Doc, if you know any of the local cops, ask them. Seriously, I can't recommend attorneys while on duty or working in my official capacity, but I can tell a friend, outside of work, at least 3 attorneys in my area that are experienced, well known for being top notch and have a record for either winning or mitigating the amount of damage there client receives. Choose one as local to you as you can and see if you can get a consult (may have to pay for that). Make sure you consult an attorney experienced in what your greatest concern is, whether it is the civil liability or a potential criminal defense.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:45:25 PM EDT

[#13]

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How are you going handle the next one? Any differently?

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Not really. Had his GF not stopped him on his charge, he'd been DRT. The rest was talking in a soothing yet authoritative voce with the idea of just getting him out of the building.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:47:13 PM EDT

[#14]

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Had a confrontation in the office (narcotic seeker) today and it was the closest time I've ever come to having to shoot someone since my last deployment to Iraq. It was serious enough to wonder about civilian litigation after the fact. What is the best CCW insurance out there?

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Pay for me to take a cram course and join the NC Bar.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:47:18 PM EDT

[#15]

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Vets are the worst narc seekers I have ever seen in 14 yrs of working the ER.

They walk into triage and they have their speech.

I am a vet, I served this country, I am a 10 on the pain scale and need 2 mg of Dilaudid STAT. Then have the Dr write an order for that every 4 hrs..for breakthru pain I need 20 mg oxy and 350 mg Soma.

Umm no, go back to the VA.

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IMHO, the ditbags pull the vet card to get what they want because many people just fold when that happens.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:49:27 PM EDT

[#16]

It's legal to shoot someone in self defense you know?

If you screw up, insurance isn't going to keep you out of prison. Shoot some dirt bag junky and even a civil case would be laughable to get thrown out.

If you are worth millions and millions, you need a nice big umbrella policy anyways.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:50:01 PM EDT

[#17]

Glad things went well for you.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:53:00 PM EDT

[#18]

Cant beleive no has asked if the hot nurses have rewarded you yet

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:53:42 PM EDT

[#19]

Heard nothing but great things for the one I carry but realized it's only my State Texas Law Shield. They expanded and are also US law shield.
Attorney answers the phone line 24/7 they cover civil and criminal grand jurry etc but not bail / bond or expert witness. They do offer a seperate program to cover bonds.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:54:51 PM EDT

[#20]

The fact that OP did not have to shoot the guy...

proves that he did not have to shoot the guy.

So why would he shoot the guy?

But he was ready, which is the important thing.

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:56:55 PM EDT

[#21]

I have USCCA insurance, just got it about a month ago to protect myself. It seems on paper, good insurance. Website is www.uscca.com

Posted: 7/12/2017 9:59:57 PM EDT

[#22]

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I would think an umbrella policy would be money well spent and it would cover you for other situations as well.

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You might think that, but you would be wrong.

Umbrella liability policies cover negligence and accidents, NOT intentional acts of self defense. Every insurance professional I have talked to said the same.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:01:21 PM EDT

[#23]

How did the nurses respond after? Some people I've met would have flipped out you had a gun and might have shot him even though you protected them.

Wife has done years of adult ER and had originally started in pediatrics. She finally left to an ER farther away at a childrens hospital to get away from the drug seekers and psych patients/ frequent flyers. Too many physc holds close calls and little to no security anymore besides a parking lot monitor and a guy in a camera room.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:01:21 PM EDT

[#24]

I don't know that the BEST is, but I chose CCW Safe. Others may do the same thing, but I liked how you call them up and they will provide the lawyer and bail up front, not as a reimbursement.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:02:59 PM EDT

[#25]

You're a chiro right? I'm a PT, and had a hand on my pistol when a drug seeking Medicaid rat started a ruckus in my clinic.

Glad it turned out ok. Invest in good cameras if you haven't already

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:07:09 PM EDT

[#26]

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I am going to say a badge.
Seriously,maybe a reserve commission,or something like it.
Not a cop thread guys,so don't make it one.

Glad you are ok Doc.

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Agency can always disavow your actions as outside the scope of employment. Hell, my employer tried to do that to me for something within the scope of employment. I called our LDF and the LDF lawyer called the City Attorney and suddenly the City Attorney decided to represent me during the deposition.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:08:00 PM EDT

[#27]

You were in your place of business with a hostile intruder. I don't see how brandishing would apply. It sounds like you should talk to a local lawyer as others have mentioned, and ask about brandishing, vs defensive display as it is defined in your state.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:08:36 PM EDT

[#28]

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Not really. Had his GF not stopped him on his charge, he'd been DRT. The rest was talking in a soothing yet authoritative voce with the idea of just getting him out of the building.

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Quoted:
How are you going handle the next one? Any differently?

Not really. Had his GF not stopped him on his charge, he'd been DRT. The rest was talking in a soothing yet authoritative voce with the idea of just getting him out of the building.

Must've been an Adrenaline Dump afterwards. Glad you're ok!

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:09:33 PM EDT

[#29]

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How did the nurses respond after? Some people I've met would have flipped out you had a gun and might have shot him even though you protected them.

Wife has done years of adult ER and had originally started in pediatrics. She finally left to an ER farther away at a childrens hospital to get away from the drug seekers and psych patients/ frequent flyers. Too many physc holds close calls and little to no security anymore besides a parking lot monitor and a guy in a camera room.

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The nurses all want their CCW now. It was a great teachable moment.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:09:56 PM EDT

[#30]

If someone is threatening, and you show your gun in a defensive manner, its not going to be brandishing.
Showing your gun to threaten someone, who is not a threat, is brandishing.

Street cops always say to "just shoot'em", but its not them that have to deal with the aftermath, legal headaches, 2nd guessing yourself etc.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:10:23 PM EDT

[#31]

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Thank you. What is the best CCW insurance though?

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Wow! Glad you and your Nurses are OK.

Thank you. What is the best CCW insurance though?

A viable threat and a fear that your life is in danger!

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:11:07 PM EDT

[#32]

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The nurses all want their CCW now. It was a great teachable moment.

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Quoted:
How did the nurses respond after? Some people I've met would have flipped out you had a gun and might have shot him even though you protected them.

Wife has done years of adult ER and had originally started in pediatrics. She finally left to an ER farther away at a childrens hospital to get away from the drug seekers and psych patients/ frequent flyers. Too many physc holds close calls and little to no security anymore besides a parking lot monitor and a guy in a camera room.

The nurses all want their CCW now. It was a great teachable moment.

Half a dozen guns on you will sap the fight right out of ya...

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:15:06 PM EDT

[#33]

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I have an umbrella policy, but this was so close I'm , also interested in specific CCW insurance. It was seriously a few second "shoot no shoot" decision.

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Wrong. You said he was within a yard of you. There's a seven foot rule for a reason. You're lucky it's not a co-worker posting about your funeral arrangements.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:18:11 PM EDT

[#34]

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When he screamed " make me leave" I almost showed it, but I was afraid of the whole "brandishing " thing.

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Typically "brandishing" is charged because pulled a gun with intent to commit a crime. In your case you would have nothing to worry about. Junkies/criminals don't call the cops. CSB, but your logic is flawed.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:19:39 PM EDT

[#35]

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agreed BUT many will not cover the liability of shooting someone

I would get a million dollar personal liability policy to start then look at Legalsheild and NRA CarryGuard..

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Real insurance is better than CCW insurance.

agreed BUT many will not cover the liability of shooting someone

I would get a million dollar personal liability policy to start then look at Legalsheild and NRA CarryGuard..

Good advice.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:21:19 PM EDT

[#36]

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Wrong. You said he was within a yard of you. There's a seven foot rule for a reason. You're lucky it's not a co-worker posting about your funeral arrangements.

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You are probably right. Time stretches out sometimes in such situations. You'd think that the decision to shoot would be easy but you have so many conflicting issues running around in your noggin. Plus you had the GF in the line of fire. I'm glad I didn't have to shoot but it was ready.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:22:04 PM EDT

[#37]

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Typically "brandishing" is charged because pulled a gun with intent to commit a crime. In your case you would have nothing to worry about. Junkies/criminals don't call the cops. CSB, but your logic is flawed.

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Fair enough.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:22:09 PM EDT

[#38]

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You might think that, but you would be wrong.

Umbrella liability policies cover negligence and accidents, NOT intentional acts of self defense. Every insurance professional I have talked to said the same.

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Quoted:
I would think an umbrella policy would be money well spent and it would cover you for other situations as well.

You might think that, but you would be wrong.

Umbrella liability policies cover negligence and accidents, NOT intentional acts of self defense. Every insurance professional I have talked to said the same.

Some may provide an attorney at their cost for defense in a civil case, but won't cover an award against you. I believe Chubb does this.

However, I would think that specific insurance covering you for both criminal and civil attorney cost would be the way to go.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:26:40 PM EDT

[#39]

Don't understand how people get hooked on narcotics... I've used em before for pain but don't get the draw from a recreational pov.

Whenever I get any I try to ration them out so that I have left overs for next time I f myself up I don't have to suffer/go to doc

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:27:04 PM EDT

[#40]

I've been looking into this myself. As I understand it now, the NRA's program pays a percentage after any legal cases are settled. USCCA coughs up money up front with the amount depending on the package you purchase. Those are the only two I've looked at so far. I'm leaning towards USCCA.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:27:51 PM EDT

[#41]

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You are probably right. Time stretches out sometimes in such situations. You'd think that the decision to shoot would be easy but you have so many conflicting issues running around in your noggin. Plus you had the GF in the line of fire. I'm glad I didn't have to shoot but it was ready.

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I'm glad you didn't have to shoot and everything turned out ok. If it's to the point that your handling a firearm with the intent to use it, it's probably time to use it.

You told them to leave. At that point it's trespassing. He destroyed property and he charged you with a deadly weapon (cane). You have creditable witnesses (assuming they are co-workers and you're not a shitty employer). It has "GOOD SHOOT" written all over it.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:28:31 PM EDT

[#42]

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I have umbrella with USAA. Thinking about specific "know how to litigate self defense cases" type insurance. Umbrella is great, but they are not specific to this situation.

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I carry USAA Umbrella, but I sure don't rely on it for self defense. Self defense has too many immediate, specific requirements. Will Umbrella mount both a criminal and civil defense? Find you a local criminal attorney, bond you out? I don't think so. I have Second Call in place. It was what NRA recommended before they came out with Carry Guard. I still think it's pretty good. Never had to call on it, thank God.

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:32:04 PM EDT

[#43]

You guys have good quality audio & video surveillance of the common areas? That's a better way to document his threats and behavior than a written report based on memory of the witnesses.

If not, I'd be looking at getting that set up. Also, robust access control. Some practices I know even have gone the route of bank & convenience store, with the receptionist behind ballistic glass. At a minimum, that person should have a panic button to alert the staff of a problem in the front office.

I'm out of the loop for defense-specific insurance, only having an individual umbrella policy myself. This is a tag for interest.

Your med mal carrier probably has an attorney they can recommend for you. This gets deep into the weeds beyond a typical self defense situation.

A couple of my partners are branching out into outpatient pain. I can guarantee they haven't given their safety nearly as much thought as you already have.

You could also do what a pharmacist friend of mine did. He started a gun shop at the office. It is very, very clear that he is armed and a suboptimal target for robbery.

Good luck. I'm reassessing my lax approach to protection in certain nonpermissive environments. There are some known threats at a couple of my facilities that could make for bad headlines.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:32:15 PM EDT

[#44]

Sorry you had to deal with that shit OP.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:33:25 PM EDT

[#45]

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What is the best CCW insurance out there?

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Define best.

With the rarity of CCW usage and the small percentage of carriers who have any of these insurance packages you're not likely to find one that has a track record of successful use.

USCCA has been around a while and NRA has plenty of assets. No idea if the others can actually carry water or if they'll fold when a legit case comes up.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:34:11 PM EDT

[#46]

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Glad you are OK, Doc.

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This. You've always come across as a stand up guy and I am sure you knew what you were doing and in control.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:35:30 PM EDT

[#47]

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I'm glad you didn't have to shoot and everything turned out ok. If it's to the point that your handling a firearm with the intent to use it, it's probably time to use it.

You told them to leave. At that point it's trespassing. He destroyed property and he charged you with a deadly weapon (cane). You have creditable witnesses (assuming they are co-workers and you're not a shitty employer). It has "GOOD SHOOT" written all over it.

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I'm certain that I made errors in judgement. It's a good lesson. I wasn't expecting this at 5 pm in my own office, so you get taken aback. All in all, it's for the better I didn't have to shoot, IMHO. However, it teaches that you have to be prepared at any time.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:36:28 PM EDT

[#48]

Kicking people in the chest who are acting like assholes is pretty effective and funny.

Posted: 7/12/2017 10:37:01 PM EDT

[#49]

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You guys have good quality audio & video surveillance of the common areas? That's a better way to document his threats and behavior than a written report based on memory of the witnesses.

If not, I'd be looking at getting that set up. Also, robust access control. Some practices I know even have gone the route of bank & convenience store, with the receptionist behind ballistic glass. At a minimum, that person should have a panic button to alert the staff of a problem in the front office.

I'm out of the loop for defense-specific insurance, only having an individual umbrella policy myself. This is a tag for interest.

Your med mal carrier probably has an attorney they can recommend for you. This gets deep into the weeds beyond a typical self defense situation.

A couple of my partners are branching out into outpatient pain. I can guarantee they haven't given their safety nearly as much thought as you already have.

You could also do what a pharmacist friend of mine did. He started a gun shop at the office. It is very, very clear that he is armed and a suboptimal target for robbery.

Good luck. I'm reassessing my lax approach to protection in certain nonpermissive environments. There are some known threats at a couple of my facilities that could make for bad headlines.

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Good idea on talking to the med mal lawyers. I'll call them tomorrow