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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:40:34 PM EDT
[#1]
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The nurses all want their CCW now. It was a great teachable moment. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:43:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Makes you want to offer the guy a no-charge infusion of diacetylcholine as a peace offering, doesn't it?
Glad we're hearing the story from you, and not about you. Stay safe. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:44:08 PM EDT
[#3]
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I'm certain that I made errors in judgement. It's a good lesson. I wasn't expecting this at 5 pm in my own office, so you get taken aback. All in all, it's for the better I didn't have to shoot, IMHO. However, it teaches that you have to be prepared at any time. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:45:32 PM EDT
[#4]
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The best insurance should be your state's laws on the use of force. That depends on available jurors, though, so I wouldn't count on it. Glad you and your people are okay, brother. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thank you. What is the best CCW insurance though? That depends on available jurors, though, so I wouldn't count on it. Glad you and your people are okay, brother. Because of your position as a physician, you really should have "CCW" insurance, and at least an initial consult with a criminal defense atty, because you need to have that guy have your number stored in his cell phone, as you found out and already knew that this shit does not usually schedule itself for regular business hours. Thankfully you are not in my asshole of a state. For your sake, glad you didn't need to shoot the guy. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:46:07 PM EDT
[#5]
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I was going to ask how they see carrying a gun for self-defense after this event. Nothing like a hearty dose of reality to make a gun owner. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:48:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Glad you didn't have to discharge your firearm and that you and your employees are ok.
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:49:12 PM EDT
[#7]
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Was his name 'Marvin'? |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:49:20 PM EDT
[#8]
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Makes you want to offer the guy a no-charge infusion of diacetylcholine as a peace offering, doesn't it?
Glad we're hearing the story from you, and not about you. Stay safe. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:49:47 PM EDT
[#9]
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Armed citizens legal defense network I also recommend the OP consult with an attorney regarding the specific threats he faces, I would also discuss the incident the inspired this thread with the attorney. The ACLDN has a list of recommended attorneys, I looked and there are 8 listed for NC. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:54:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Glad it worked out.
Watch his proceedings through the legal system; he may come back very soon. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:56:28 PM EDT
[#11]
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Heard nothing but great things for the one I carry but realized it's only my State Texas Law Shield. They expanded and are also US law shield. Attorney answers the phone line 24/7 they cover civil and criminal grand jurry etc but not bail / bond or expert witness. They do offer a seperate program to cover bonds. I've heard that with the insurance policies, they typically don't pay out until you are acquitted. I've also heard that with bail, the judge considers your total assets including insurance so it cancels out the benefit. I don't really know much about that, though. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:57:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Doc,
A quick review of CCW Safe, USCCA and Carry Guard reveals that the USCCA Platinum and the Carry Guard Gold programs are similar and both offer legal expense coverage for both criminal and civil defense, as well as coverage for civil awards. Cost is similar at about $375/yr. Both seem to offer direct bail or bond pmt, direct legal pmt also, as opposed to reimbursement. Both are in the $1million civil coverage range, USCCA probably a little more since they do not appear to count legal expenditures against the civil liability insurance policy limits. Both with $150k criminal legal expense limit. No deductible info given, need to look at that. CCW Safe appears to only cover legal expenses and not potential civil liability. Current and valid concealed permit required for coverage, which does not seem to be a limitation for the other two. I am going to look further into USCCA and Carry Guard. I do have an umbrella policy with Chubb - tacked on to their homeowner policy, which I would recommend without hesitation for a high income/net worth family. Chubb has been great to deal for typical homeowner policy stuff and stood with me the whole ride when I was sued for winning a fight with a guy who pulled a knife on me after a traffic accident. The specific -$1million coverage for civil liability and the $150k for criminal defense expenses are what attract me to USCCA and Carry Guard. ETA: Looked at Second Call, little available info and via Lloyd's of London. Based on my experience with Lloyd's it's a no go. ETA 2: Looked at Armed Citizen Legal Defense Fund. No civil liability insurance and not enough guaranteed legal expense coverage for criminal or civil proceedings. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:59:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Uscca covers you with anything you use (Gun, knife, halberd, fists, giant purple...)
Don't bother talking to your med mal guy. You would want a rockstar attorney if it came to it (It would be illegal for me regularly refer people to an attorney with a minimum retainer of 50k, but damn he gets results) |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 10:59:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doc, A quick review of CCW Safe, USCCA and Carry Guard reveals that the USCCA Platinum and the Carry Guard Gold programs are similar and both offer legal expense coverage for both criminal and civil defense, as well as coverage for civil awards. Cost is similar at about $375/yr. Both seem to offer direct bail or bond pmt, direct legal pmt also, as opposed to reimbursement. Both are in the $1million civil coverage range, USCCA probably a little more since they do not appear to count legal expenditures against the civil liability insurance policy limits. Both with $150k criminal legal expense limit. No deductible info given, need to look at that. CCW Safe appears to only cover legal expenses and not potential civil liability. Current and valid concealed permit required for coverage, which does not seem to be a limitation for the other two. I am going to look further into USCCA and Carry Guard. I do have an umbrella policy with Chubb - tacked on to their homeowner policy, which I would recommend without hesitation for a high income/net worth family. Chubb has been great to deal for typical homeowner policy stuff and stood with me the whole ride when I was sued for winning a fight with a guy who pulled a knife on me after a traffic accident. The specific -$1million coverage for civil liability and the $150k for criminal defense expenses are what attract me to USCCA and Carry Guard. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:01:12 PM EDT
[#15]
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Fair enough. 
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:01:45 PM EDT
[#16]
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Damn Doc, glad you and the other employees are ok. That's some damn fine restraint you showed there... probably got something to do with all those years of service. Best outcome for all was achieved, as much as many here would like to MMQB it with "why didn't you shoot?". Strictly as an AAR point, I'd simply consider if you'd want to let a potential aggressor get that close to you (3 feet, by your recollection) before you're drawn and on target. Again, glad everyone is ok and Dopy McShithead is in jail. Check out USCC (link already posted by others) if you're serious about insurance. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:02:36 PM EDT
[#17]
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LOL. I'm going to insist to the partners that any employee with a valid CCW be encouraged to CCW. Will have to suss out the liability concerns. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:07:50 PM EDT
[#18]
NO insurance policy covers a deliberate action.
Such as shooing a mother fucker in the face. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:13:38 PM EDT
[#19]
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Well said. I wasn't getting within striking distance of his blunt object though. Would OC spray have been of some utility when he was refusing to leave the exam room area? 
just trying to game the scenario in my head, as it is an interesting quandary. ETA: am guessing spraying the office w/ OC spray would require you all to vacate the office, but might be a useful option nonetheless, for subduing the guy somewhat until police arrive. ETA2: thank you for sharing the story. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:15:08 PM EDT
[#20]
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Had a confrontation in the office (narcotic seeker) today and it was the closest time I've ever come to having to shoot someone since my last deployment to Iraq. It was serious enough to wonder about civilian litigation after the fact. What is the best CCW insurance out there? I couldn't get a definitive answer comparing USCCA to NRA CG. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2010519_USCCA-v--NRA-Carry-Guard---relevant-differences.html |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:16:02 PM EDT
[#21]
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Man there sure are a fuck ton of terrible stories about disabled vets these days in GD. All centering around drugs, alcohol or road rage. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:16:30 PM EDT
[#22]
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Good info. Thanks. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:18:48 PM EDT
[#23]
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How did the nurses respond after? Some people I've met would have flipped out you had a gun and might have shot him even though you protected them. Wife has done years of adult ER and had originally started in pediatrics. She finally left to an ER farther away at a childrens hospital to get away from the drug seekers and psych patients/ frequent flyers. Too many physc holds close calls and little to no security anymore besides a parking lot monitor and a guy in a camera room. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:26:38 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NO insurance policy covers a deliberate action. Such as shooing a mother fucker in the face. For example, you deliberately took a left turn, but you failed to see the oncoming car, causing an accident... Your deliberate action was negligent, not willfull, and you are covered. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:31:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Glad you are still with us, i have enjoyed your posts over the years.
Personally, in my own place of business, I'm pretty certain I would have taken aim when he said "I'm going to kill you". He had already demonstrated he was not in his right mind, and at that point he has threatened my life. It's academic at this point. You're still here to post so everything else is gravy. As a side note, as a civilian, i am astounded to hear you were in a position to have to pop someone in Iraq. I would have thought our docs were safely tucked away from direct threats so they could do their thing for our wounded. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:34:42 PM EDT
[#26]
I didn't see this brought up in the thread yet, but what are the castle doctrine laws like in NC? In some states it applies to your home, car, and place of business.
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:35:41 PM EDT
[#27]
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The girls were very much concerned. The general opinion was what if I had finished my charting five minutes early and was on the way home when this happened? They would have been fucked. Nothing like a hearty dose of reality to make a gun owner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was going to ask how they see carrying a gun for self-defense after this event. Nothing like a hearty dose of reality to make a gun owner. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:35:42 PM EDT
[#28]
I get growly when I can't poop too
sorry doc have no advice for you 
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:36:39 PM EDT
[#29]
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The OP did the right thing. Shooting someone is a bad idea unless you HAVE TO. You need to be able to demonstrate to a jury of drooling dunces that you HAD TO do it. I saw a PBS show one time that had footage of a jury actually deliberating over a real criminal case, it was truly frightening. The jurors were like stereotypes. An angry black guy, a nice old lady, a bimbo, a douchey liberal guy, etc Didn't have an IQ over 80 in the room. Living well is the best revenge. |
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Posted: 7/12/2017 11:42:36 PM EDT
[#30]
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While I absolutely agree with your post, it is notable that many obvious self defense shootings are not even going to be charged and go to a jury. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The OP did the right thing. Shooting someone is a bad idea unless you HAVE TO. You need to be able to demonstrate to a jury of drooling dunces that you HAD TO do it. I saw a PBS show one time that had footage of a jury actually deliberating over a real criminal case, it was truly frightening. The jurors were like stereotypes. An angry black guy, a nice old lady, a bimbo, a douchey liberal guy, etc Didn't have an IQ over 80 in the room. Living well is the best revenge. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 12:06:10 AM EDT
[#31]
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Yea, maybe in NC or WY (a change would be forthcoming in my People's Republic of MD,) but that same jury will be seated to hear the civil case against you, you know, the one where the addicted, alleged vet was going to enroll in college and become a rocket scientist or solve global warming... I am saying there is a risk, but a lot of people assume a justified shoot is still going to be an expensive legal nightmare..not always. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 12:06:55 AM EDT
[#32]
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Glad you are OK, Doc. What a drag you have to deal with that behavior. A healer should be the last person to get assaulted verbally or physically. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 12:12:58 AM EDT
[#33]
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Good idea on talking to the med mal lawyers. I'll call them tomorrow Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You guys have good quality audio & video surveillance of the common areas? That's a better way to document his threats and behavior than a written report based on memory of the witnesses. If not, I'd be looking at getting that set up. Also, robust access control. Some practices I know even have gone the route of bank & convenience store, with the receptionist behind ballistic glass. At a minimum, that person should have a panic button to alert the staff of a problem in the front office. I'm out of the loop for defense-specific insurance, only having an individual umbrella policy myself. This is a tag for interest. Your med mal carrier probably has an attorney they can recommend for you. This gets deep into the weeds beyond a typical self defense situation. A couple of my partners are branching out into outpatient pain. I can guarantee they haven't given their safety nearly as much thought as you already have. You could also do what a pharmacist friend of mine did. He started a gun shop at the office. It is very, very clear that he is armed and a suboptimal target for robbery. 
Good luck. I'm reassessing my lax approach to protection in certain nonpermissive environments. There are some known threats at a couple of my facilities that could make for bad headlines. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 12:15:35 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Makes you want to offer the guy a no-charge infusion of diacetylcholine as a peace offering, doesn't it?
Glad we're hearing the story from you, and not about you. Stay safe. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 12:40:53 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
USCCA seems to be the best one I have found, and use. Quote HistoryQuoted:
USCCA seems to be the best one I have found, and use. Quoted:
Armed citizens legal defense network USCCA covers everything. Bail, retainer, expert witnesses, clean up, gun replacement. All that jazz. Don't gotta pay anything back either. In the event you are found guilty they just stop paying for your defense and you fly solo from there, no reimbursements. They cover your Civil defense as well as any damages levied against you. Armed Citizens is kinda just a legal "money pot" that covers all the same stuff. Everyone who pays in is guaranteed up to half of there current "pot" amount for their defense(s). NRA's Carry Guard is kinda like USCCA but works more on a reimbursement basis. They'll give you up to $30,000 for whatever you want but after that, everything is out of pocket. Once you are found innocent then they reimburse you all your court costs that exceeded the $30,000. No I'm not a rep for anyone. Just done a lot of research on CYA policies.
ETA: Forgot to mention that Armed Citizens doesn't cover civil suits and damages, and USCCA covers use of any weapon for self defense. Lots of other guys like Second Call and CCW Safe only cover shootings. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 12:41:23 AM EDT
[#36]
It's not the shooting some one part it's the legally shooting some one part
Quote HistoryQuoted:
agreed BUT many will not cover the liability of shooting someone I would get a million dollar personal liability policy to start then look at Legalsheild and NRA CarryGuard.. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 1:00:33 AM EDT
[#37]
Did either him or his GF see that you had a pistol at any point? Not worried about brandishing, but if they did or you think they did, get it noted in the police report.
I had something similar happen at my house where I caught someone trying to break in and after a few minutes of failed attempts, I showed up at a window with my AR and hit him with the light because he was still outside and I didn't want to get thrown into a legal issue with shooting someone technically not inside / not having technically broken in. When the police finally came I still had the AR out and when I told them what happened the Lieutenant that was there said to make sure to notate that the burglar saw I had a weapon. I asked why, and he said that he's seen situations like this before and occasionally you run into people who you showed a weapon to and they 'get disrespected' and want to come back with friends and guns. Having it stated in the police report, it made sure that it made a record stating that the criminal saw a weapon, knew the potential dangers of coming back and can only be assumed to be armed because of it. Nothing ever came out of it, but this was in Florida. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 1:44:34 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Makes you want to offer the guy a no-charge infusion of diacetylcholine as a peace offering, doesn't it?
Glad we're hearing the story from you, and not about you. Stay safe. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 2:33:59 AM EDT
[#39]
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Geeeee thanks for the details! J- |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 2:53:56 AM EDT
[#40]
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I would think an umbrella policy would be money well spent and it would cover you for other situations as well. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 2:54:23 AM EDT
[#41]
Glad you and the girls are okay Doc.
Ed |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 4:57:36 AM EDT
[#42]
Was there any way you could have just pulled all your people to a secure room and left him to freak out while the cops are on the way?
Not very macho, and he might trash your place, but maybe cheaper than shooting him in the long run. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 5:45:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Glad you're ok Doc.
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Posted: 7/13/2017 5:49:59 AM EDT
[#44]
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After nearly 40 yrs in L.E., now retired, I went with this company: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ I chose this one for the coverage (different levels available) and the cost. NRA now offers a program, too, but I am unfamiliar with the details of their program. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 5:55:25 AM EDT
[#45]
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The fact that OP did not have to shoot the guy... proves that he did not have to shoot the guy. So why would he shoot the guy? But he was ready, which is the important thing. Because if things had gone differently the Doc may not be with us today. He chose to risk it, I wouldn't have, I have a family to get home to every night. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 6:17:17 AM EDT
[#46]
Crazy story Doc. Good for you for "holding down the fort." You made the correct decisions based on your description of events.
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Posted: 7/13/2017 6:34:02 AM EDT
[#47]
Good no shoot. Maybe a good IWB holster is in your future. Go do some dot drills and practice. Hope he does not come back.
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Posted: 7/13/2017 6:42:52 AM EDT
[#48]
Scary shit Doc.
It is my understanding that in NC, if the shooting is ruled self defense by the DA, you can not be sued civilly. It has been 8 or 9 years since I took my class so the details are a little rusty, but I recall being taught that. I still think the insurance is a good idea. Defending yourself from even a BS charge would be expensive as heck. |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 6:44:40 AM EDT
[#49]
Glad it worked out, Doc.
Do you have security cameras in your office and in front of your building? If you *had* to shoot, video would back up your story. (ETA: covered on page 2) |
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Posted: 7/13/2017 6:49:12 AM EDT
[#50]
Man this would have been better if you had shot opioid boy in the face with the 10 millie, and sprayed bright pink brain mist all over the fucking reception area.
Pics of any hot, fuckable nurses would have helped too. Disclaimer: Female nurses only. Pics of male nurses = perma ban.
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