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Posted: 6/18/2017 1:01:03 PM EDT
[#1]
I voted yes, but it is a conditional yes.
If your handloads are conventional, (duplicating some commonly available factory loading), you probably won't have any problems. Or, in my area, I probably won't have a problem. Massad Ayoob does have a good point that he makes though. Modern ballistics investigators can compare the results of shooting factory cartridges with other factory cartridges. This is not possible with handloads. If you are handcrafting mercury filled exploding bullets, I would vote no. I can't see any difference between rifle and handgun. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 1:16:16 PM EDT
[#2]
I have had some issues with my hand loads, never with loads that have been worked out and decided to keep. I have had more problems overall with store bought ammo, especially considering how little I shoot of it.
I had .41 Magnum starting loads using Blue Dot that pierced primers. A couple years later they came out with a product warning that nobody should use a Blue Dot from that point forward when loading .41 Magnum.........ever. I had a dud .40 S&W Federal Tactical round. I had a (new made in Portugal military surplus) headstamp FNM-79 M193 NATO round leave the case neck in the rifle's chamber and the following round fed into the chamber, jammed into the case neck that was stuck therein and blew up. The double case neck was still stuck in the chamber after the explosion. Shrapnel flew from the ejection port and a bullet ended up stuck in the barrel about 8" from the breach. No injuries to me or any bystanders. I've had two slam fires on .308 M1 Garands when using Federal 210M (match) primers, one at a NRA Regional Tournament (not the Nationals) held at Camp Perry, OH. Safety was on, the rifle fired when I close the bolt in preparation for the rapid fire sitting stage. I was informed that those primers were known to cause problems when used in Garand rifles. I have experienced so many .22 LR rimfire duds in my life I can't count them all. I had a lead .45acp bullet get stuck in a barrel (probably no powder charge or a very light powder charge) on reloaded ammo I purchased from a local gun shop. This pretty much sums up over 40 years of my shooting life which 33 years of it has included reloading. I trust my ammo with my life, I wouldn't use it if I didn't. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 1:17:59 PM EDT
[#3]
I use the same brand and type of handgun ammunition the Seattle Police Department uses (or at least the brand and type they used last time I checked, which was a few years ago). I figure that provides some assurance of decent quality control, and would be an easy decision to defend if I ever had to do so.
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Posted: 6/18/2017 1:35:39 PM EDT
[#4]
I don't, but I have no problem with using my hand loads for self defense. I think some of you (except the ones living in police states) seriously over think and worry about this shit. Now if I lived in CA, NY, CO etc. then I might apply the logic of using the same ammo as the local P.D. or sheriffs office, but I live in the middle of no where GA, so...
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Posted: 6/18/2017 1:35:49 PM EDT
[#5]
I suspect you already know my answer since I've got a thread on a similar subject.
I trust my loads much more than I trust any commercially mass produced ammo. Each of my SD loads are hand crafted after a lot of testing and I KNOW exactly what is in each of them. The chances of one of my SD handloads not doing the job is about the same as all the liberals in the world waking up and realizing republicans were right. I carry handloads in all my pistols and carbine. 
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Posted: 6/18/2017 1:44:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Consistent with ARFCOM general philosophy, I have both. This is true for both handgun and rifle.
I have a relatively large supply of factory ammunition suitable for self defense. "Large supply" means more than enough for a typical self defense encounter and enough to ensure reliability and occasional training. After all, how many rounds will you need, really? I also hand load self defense ammo. Typically, these are loaded to factory specs. All my ammo is loaded to perform the way factory ammo behaves. This is especially important for recoil, feeding and functioning. Typically, I use the same bullet as my factory ammo. It would require a forensic investigation to figure out which was factory and which were hand loads, they are that similar. I keep factory fodder pre-loaded in magazines most of the time. If I ever ran out and had to use reloads, I would, without hesitation. I pray to God I never need either. P.S. - I do not worry about the ammo. If I need to use ammo, it will be a justified self-defense shooting. What I really worry about is a government that wants to disarm the good people in a society with ever-increasing numbers of violent criminals and terrorists which increases the risk of needing to defend yourself. This is the same population and environment into which the government is intentionally releasing both mentally ill and criminals while simultaneously refusing to enforce the laws of the land. The risk of needing to defend myself increases while the government makes it more difficult to do so. THAT is my worry. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 2:08:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Double Yes.
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Posted: 6/18/2017 3:16:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Factory or hand rolled, Plunk test every one. I have had premium factory loads that would not chamber.
I load my own carry ammo with new brass and 230 gr HST to standard pressure and amazing accuracy. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 4:26:20 PM EDT
[#9]
I usually carry commercially loaded defense ammo in my CC pistol.
I don't buy any factory center fire rifle ammo so I guess that would be a yes. But often if I'm carrying while out fishing or hunting the pistol would very likely have hand loads in it. You guys laugh if you saw what's in the corner next to my bed. It's a model 1949 Santa Fee 7.5x54 MAS with 168gr flat nose powder coated cast bullets. Motor |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 4:33:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Both.
Primary mags for both ate factory (speer gold dot, Barnes, or imi razr core). I have shot quite a bit of this "duty" ammo with no issues in my guns. If it goes beyond a few mags, the rest are reloads. My opinion, a good attorney can get you off for anything the other side says but I would rather my attorney not have to deal with it and focus on other stuff. If shtf bad enough that I grab reloads, well lawyers will be last of my concern. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 4:41:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
1. Never use handloads, evil defense attorneys will vilify you for it. ( Massad Ayoob ) It's called justifiable homicide for a reason. Mods should lock these dumb threads as soon as they pop up. Never in the history of firearms has this ever happened. No one has ever gone to jail for using home reloads, ever. It does a disservice to the reloading world to perpetuate this myth. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 4:55:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's called justifiable homicide for a reason. Mods should lock these dumb threads as soon as they pop up. Never in the history of firearms has this ever happened. No one has ever gone to jail for using home reloads, ever. It does a disservice to the reloading world to perpetuate this myth. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 5:02:21 PM EDT
[#13]
My CCW gun has handloaded 9mm Gold Dots or something
Another gun around the house has the same |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 5:10:15 PM EDT
[#14]
With modern factory ammo being readily available, I see no reason in favor of using handloads. I DO see unscrupulous District Attorneys using handloads against the defendant. This has happened in the past, and there is no good reason, given very good modern handgun ammo, to not use very good factory ammo in a self-defense HG or rifle.
My practice is to ask local cops what ammo they use, and use the same thing. YMMV. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 5:14:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's called justifiable homicide for a reason. Mods should lock these dumb threads as soon as they pop up. Never in the history of firearms has this ever happened. No one has ever gone to jail for using home reloads, ever. It does a disservice to the reloading world to perpetuate this myth. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 7:52:58 PM EDT
[#16]
I would use them if it was all I had. I routinely carry handloaded 180 gold dots or XTPs in my 10MM.
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Posted: 6/18/2017 8:08:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't knw bout going to jail for using reloads, but Mas Ayoob has mentioned multiple stories of users of handloads being persecuted in exactly that account by liberal DAs. Why go through that particular ordeal, and greatly increased legal expense, when using Cop ammo is so easy to do? |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 8:12:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's called justifiable homicide for a reason. Mods should lock these dumb threads as soon as they pop up. Never in the history of firearms has this ever happened. No one has ever gone to jail for using home reloads, ever. It does a disservice to the reloading world to perpetuate this myth. As long as thread stays civil it can run. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 9:22:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He sells books. I don't put much stock in what he has to say. If anything he's hurt us legally by selling that line and bringing it to the attention of DA's that also read his crap. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't knw bout going to jail for using reloads, but Mas Ayoob has mentioned multiple stories of users of handloads being persecuted in exactly that account by liberal DAs. Why go through that particular ordeal, and greatly increased legal expense, when using Cop ammo is so easy to do? read some recent history, please, and get informed. Please describe, in detail, and citing sources, how Mas Ayoob has hurt the RKBA cause in a single instance. We all await your response. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 9:44:37 PM EDT
[#20]
I trust my hand loads for both rifle and pistol. Who's to say you get a dud from factory loads. Hey, shit happens.
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Posted: 6/18/2017 9:51:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I trust my hand loads for both rifle and pistol. Who's to say you get a dud from factory loads. Hey, shit happens. I don't mind using either or. I have factory in my mags and reloads for SHTF in ammo cans. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 10:27:52 PM EDT
[#22]
147gr XTPs in my 9mm pistol and carbine
200 gr XTPs in my 45 ACP 53gr Vmax or 68-69gr BTHPs in my 223 125gr SSTs or 110gr Vmax in my 300 BO 168gr BTHPs in my 308 Screw factory ammo. Mine shoots better, straighter, faster, and has higher quality control. Any shooting I get into will be justified and I will be in the clear. Also why I signed up for USCCA carry insurance in case the law isnt "fair and impartial". |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 10:31:31 PM EDT
[#23]
I voted no to both. While I have great confidence in my experience and ability to build accurate, reliable ammunition, I have no control over my critical components like powder & primers. The major ammunition factories build ammo from much fresher components than I can source, plus their facilities and equipment are built from the ground up to manufacture quality ammunition. My supplies come from who knows where, and are who knows how old, and who knows how they were stored.
For background, I don't buy cheap ammo to keep around the house to repel boarders. It's always the first line stuff. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 10:33:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The self-serving DAs were already persecuting private gun owners in anyway possible, and non-Cop ammo was low-hanging fruit for them. read some recent history, please, and get informed. Please describe, in detail, and citing sources, how Mas Ayoob has hurt the RKBA cause in a single instance. We all await your response. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 10:43:14 PM EDT
[#25]
I use factory ammo because it tends to be more reliable than hand-loads. For self defense I want it to work.
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Posted: 6/18/2017 11:35:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's called justifiable homicide for a reason. Mods should lock these dumb threads as soon as they pop up. Never in the history of firearms has this ever happened. No one has ever gone to jail for using home reloads, ever. It does a disservice to the reloading world to perpetuate this myth. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 11:45:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In the last of these threads I read, someone actually produced the cases where the hand loads were brought up in a trial. I might have saved text somewhere. Let's not derail this one please. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 7:20:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And as soon as people brought up Ayoob, it turned into a derailment. Let's not derail this one please. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In the last of these threads I read, someone actually produced the cases where the hand loads were brought up in a trial. I might have saved text somewhere. Let's not derail this one please. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 12:56:50 PM EDT
[#29]
I understand the LFI recommendation to not use reloads for self defense. I have read some of the cases histories which form its basis.
I also know my State's laws regarding the use of lethal force. Even here in California, if you are justified in using lethal force, well,... you are justified in doing so. This is especially true inside your house. If someone breaks into your home, and you feel your life is threatened, you are justified in defending yourself and your loved ones. There are bad people in this world who are intent on doing you harm. Those people used to be incarcerated but they have are emptying the jails and mental hospitals. That's the way it is. No one wants any of that to happen but it does. I have chosen to use factory ammo if I can as a hedge against possible down-stream troubles, but also have and would use reloads if needed. Despite this, the main purpose for the reloads is realistic training. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 1:53:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Factory or hand rolled, Plunk test every one. I have had premium factory loads that would not chamber. I load my own carry ammo with new brass and 230 gr HST to standard pressure and amazing accuracy. So, I have a concern doing that! If I was going to load my own pistol ammo I would use Speer Gold Dots loaded in new brass in 9 or 45. But, I would not use suspect bullets from some source with pull down components. If I was gong to load my own 223 ammo I would not think twice about the Nosler 64gr Bonded bullets. I choose not, not from fear of lawyers twisting things. But, out of ease on my end. All, the carry ammo is run throw the case gage and repacked. To date in all the inspected Federal ammo I have not found issues! Of course for evey reason why not someone will counter, and they have their considerations and I have mine! |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 2:02:41 PM EDT
[#31]
It's not very easy to find the bullets I want in my CCW loads. So I tend to carry 9mm with 147HSTs.
That being said I have no problems carrying reloads and I will do it from time to time. I'd rather have the HSTs than XTPs though. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 2:17:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why? I stated my opinion. If you want to cite sources and such to disprove what I have said please feel free. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The self-serving DAs were already persecuting private gun owners in anyway possible, and non-Cop ammo was low-hanging fruit for them. read some recent history, please, and get informed. Please describe, in detail, and citing sources, how Mas Ayoob has hurt the RKBA cause in a single instance. We all await your response. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 2:20:19 PM EDT
[#33]
I voted
no on handgun yes on rifle No on handgun: I've found it harder to source quality bullets in handgun, the industry just doesn't support sending out the latest Gold Dot or HST bullets as reloads. So that coupled with, "this is what the local PD uses" is simply more practical and defendable in my mind. yes on rifle: Hunting bullets work on humans just as well as they work on deer, so that's what I use. Also I have the personal perception that if you're using a rifle on people it doesn't really matter what you're shooting them with, it's either GTG or it's not. The type of bullet used isn't going to sway a prosecutor one way or the other also typically that's in the home and in TN if somebody's in my home with bad intentions I could shoot them with a homemade cannon or slice them with a broad sword and I'm not getting charged. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 3:27:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those bullets must be pull down bullets from ammo that was for some reason unacceptable. Because Federal does not sell them as an individual component. So, I have a concern doing that! If I was going to load my own pistol ammo I would use Speer Gold Dots loaded in new brass in 9 or 45. But, I would not use suspect bullets from some source with pull down components. If I was gong to load my own 223 ammo I would not think twice about the Nosler 64gr Bonded bullets. I choose not, not from fear of lawyers twisting things. But, out of ease on my end. All, the carry ammo is run throw the case gage and repacked. To date in all the inspected Federal ammo I have not found issues! Of course for evey reason why not someone will counter, and they have their considerations and I have mine! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Factory or hand rolled, Plunk test every one. I have had premium factory loads that would not chamber. I load my own carry ammo with new brass and 230 gr HST to standard pressure and amazing accuracy. So, I have a concern doing that! If I was going to load my own pistol ammo I would use Speer Gold Dots loaded in new brass in 9 or 45. But, I would not use suspect bullets from some source with pull down components. If I was gong to load my own 223 ammo I would not think twice about the Nosler 64gr Bonded bullets. I choose not, not from fear of lawyers twisting things. But, out of ease on my end. All, the carry ammo is run throw the case gage and repacked. To date in all the inspected Federal ammo I have not found issues! Of course for evey reason why not someone will counter, and they have their considerations and I have mine! Do you test factory ammo either? If you don't test factory, then you cannot skew using components that are "defective" to you. Blemished projectiles is is sold as factory seconds that didn't get past their QA?QC people. I use both, factory and my own. I will NOT carry anything that I haven't tested. Just because it is factory doesn't mean it will work! I test for easement of my mind! |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 3:31:36 PM EDT
[#35]
Yes. On both.
I'm not worried about being exonerated on the shoot but convicted on the ammo choice |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 3:32:33 PM EDT
[#36]
I voted yes to both. The GF keeps factory loaded Federal 147g HST in her bed side 9MM. Mostly because I haven't gotten around to purchasing components to reload defensive rounds.
I keep reloads in my 22 TCM on my side of the bed. Not only are they reloads, but I formed the brass as well. Factory 22 TCM had multiple failure to fires and tons of split necks. It would not be something I would risk my life on. In the rifles, I would not hesitate to shoot 77g SMK or 55g FMJ reloads. The only factory ammo I have for 556 is some crappy steel case ammo that sticks in my rifles. Nope. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 3:47:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Will this beast never die?
 Can't we discuss something more important like why froglube is better than Hoppe's 9? Or what about Pennzoil vs Valvoline? There's a topic sure to have climate changes ramifications.
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Posted: 6/19/2017 3:57:25 PM EDT
[#38]
Yes to both, because I am in Fort Worth, Texas.
If I shoot some felon and was justified, I don't have to worry about prosecution because of things like trigger jobs, ammo, or "shoot the gun out of his hand". I would be a little more worried in cities like Dallas, Houston, Austin, El Paso, and San Antonio. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 5:17:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And as soon as people brought up Ayoob, it turned into a derailment. Let's not derail this one please. I mentioned Mr. Ayoob because he is the guy who's been stating this for decades I know guys who carry handloads for defense and guys who don't I think it's interesting that, according to the poll, most here do. I can't remember this ever being a topic in the reloading forum before . |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 5:21:49 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am the OP I mentioned Mr. Ayoob because he is the guy who's been stating this for decades I know guys who carry handloads for defense and guys who don't I think it's interesting that, according to the poll, most here do. I can't remember this ever being a topic in the reloading forum before . So far so good. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 5:22:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Yes.
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Posted: 6/19/2017 9:45:44 PM EDT
[#42]
It is an interesting question, and to be honest I can see people choosing one or the other based on personal circumstance and experience. I personally have full faith and confidence in my fully developed and tested home loads.
I don't reload pistol anymore just because a lot of good 9mm ammo of all kinds being available at very good prices. I think rifle reloading offers more worthy variables of performance for the time spent. I'm decently anal about my reloading process, just like I am working on the brakes and other critical components on my vehicles...faulty brakes probably presenting a higher frequency of danger than our firearms. I understand the liability debate, but I think it might be a little overblown in most self-defense scenarios. If your home loaded, armor piercing, death bullet goes through a confirmed "bad guy" and into a kindergarten class across the street and kills a dozen children...well...that might present a different set of problems. (obvious exaggeration added for impact) In over 30 years as a cop working in criminal investigation and just about every other division besides narcotics and community services, I can't recall ever personally working or seeing/hearing of a case where a shooting and subsequent civil and/or criminal proceeding presented an argument or liability element about reloaded ammo. The priority was always determining/proving that a specific gun fired a specific bullet. After that it was a whole other element to prove who used the gun and who was shot by gun. I'll be honest. I'll bet there were times that reloaded ammo was used, but forensics and otherwise never revealed or pursued the issue. However, it's a big country and big world out there. I worked and live in Texas. I'll bet there's a state, city, and lawyer out there somewhere just waiting to pounce on anything even if they have to stretch the bounds of reason in the name of a perceived concept of justice...so...it's probably wise to consider these things. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 10:41:19 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ayoob has already done so, citing multiple instances; Hence, my suggestion that you do some reading. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 7:35:55 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've read his stuff and it does not impress me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ayoob has already done so, citing multiple instances; Hence, my suggestion that you do some reading. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 8:16:00 AM EDT
[#45]
I have carried my own handloads in my CCW and never worried about any legal ramifications for doing so.
Currently, I carry factory Winchester Silvertips because they were free, they work well in my gun and are reasonably accurate. Whichever I carry- factory or handload- I function and accuracy test each lot before I commit to it. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 11:13:20 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I look forward to your next book, in which you state your reasons, along with examples and citations, for not being impressed by Ayoob. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 1:10:06 PM EDT
[#47]
Guys, knock off the bickering or take it "outside". You're going to get this thread locked.
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Posted: 6/20/2017 1:12:03 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'll be waiting a long long time... I shoot much better and often than I write. BTW can you tell me which police departments carry 10mm on duty? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I look forward to your next book, in which you state your reasons, along with examples and citations, for not being impressed by Ayoob. Some Info here. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 1:17:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guys, knock off the bickering or take it "outside". You're going to get this thread locked. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 1:17:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10mm as a duty round, eh? Don't know of any off-hand, but with all the various LEO organizations out there, there must be at least one. Maybe in AK or some other locale where dangerous animals, such as bear might be encountered while on duty. I recall that the FBI issued 10mm sidearms for a while, perhaps use that as a starting point, and go from there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I look forward to your next book, in which you state your reasons, along with examples and citations, for not being impressed by Ayoob. |
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