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Posted: 6/20/2017 1:20:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's called justifiable homicide for a reason. Mods should lock these dumb threads as soon as they pop up. Never in the history of firearms has this ever happened. No one has ever gone to jail for using home reloads, ever. It does a disservice to the reloading world to perpetuate this myth. Wasn't there some guy where the prosecutor made a big deal about his having a 10mm? |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 1:20:35 PM EDT
[#2]
I don't think this belongs in the reloading forum tho
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Posted: 6/20/2017 1:40:09 PM EDT
[#3]
I generally would use factory ammo in both, but I don't put much effort into it. Examples:
I have a bunch of Ranger T 9x19mm 147 grain, so I generally carry that in 9mm pistols. For a couple years, .380 was hard to find and expensive, and I carried reloads. .300 BLK subsonic expanding loads were hard to find and expensive. So, I have a few mags of reloaded subsonic .300BLK specifically for SD. There are plenty of calibers that although I am unlikely to use for SD, I would only have reloads on hand for: In 7.62x25mm, I keep XTP reloads in a few magazines, and I sure as hell would use those over the alternative (50's polish surplus). In a bunch of rifle calibers I don't have any loaded ammunition OTHER than reloads. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 2:24:12 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think this belongs in the reloading forum tho I have no problem as long as thread stays polite. In the past these threads got locked as they got off track and nasty. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 2:38:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10mm as a duty round, eh? Don't know of any off-hand, but with all the various LEO organizations out there, there must be at least one. Maybe in AK or some other locale where dangerous animals, such as bear might be encountered while on duty. I recall that the FBI issued 10mm sidearms for a while, perhaps use that as a starting point, and go from there. Some Info here. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 2:50:00 PM EDT
[#6]
I have multiple guns that ammunition is simply not available for.
I would prefer not to use one since it may never get returned but if I really needed to that would just be an additional cost. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 2:53:43 PM EDT
[#7]
If you use matching headstamps and consistent bullets, law enforcement won't know they are handloads unless you tell them. There is no reason to do that unless you're specifically asked that question.
I carry handloads in my .380. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 8:02:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10mm as a duty round, eh? Don't know of any off-hand, but with all the various LEO organizations out there, there must be at least one. Maybe in AK or some other locale where dangerous animals, such as bear might be encountered while on duty. I recall that the FBI issued 10mm sidearms for a while, perhaps use that as a starting point, and go from there. Some Info here. One of our officers shot an armed bank robber at a downtown bank...don't remember exactly where he was hit, but it was 2 or 3 shots center mass. The guy hardly went down which caused a stir over the gun and ammo. Shortly thereafter the department allowed a wide variety of guns and ammo in the "authorized list", and we never were limited to "low power" ammo again. |
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Posted: 6/20/2017 9:09:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Also there is a big difference between criminal and civil. There are a lot of states that can clear you criminally but still have civil issues to deal with.
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Posted: 6/21/2017 7:10:25 AM EDT
[#10]
I only shoot handloads.
My ammo has already been through court. My Father's insane wife fired two rounds at the police and then shot herself through the heart with my handloaded .357 magnum 125 gr. JHP. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 8:35:35 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you know? Not saying it's something I'd worry about but it's not like anyone knows every argument every prosecutor made in every shooting case ever. Wasn't there some guy where the prosecutor made a big deal about his having a 10mm? |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 1:08:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...the myth it's an instant guilty verdict needs to be stopped. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:16:53 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you want it to end, don't exaggerate, don't use inflammatory rhetoric. No one said it was "an instant guilty verdict". What has been said was it can become an issue during trial, criminal or civil. link |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 11:49:25 AM EDT
[#14]
My hand loads are more accurate and more consistent, so yes on both.
Ayoob is wrong, to start with. A good shoot is a good shoot. This ends our discussion for this quarter on this subject. Please bring it back up at our meeting in October. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 3:44:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you use matching headstamps and consistent bullets, law enforcement won't know they are handloads unless you tell them. There is no reason to do that unless you're specifically asked that question. Lying to police or Fed investigators IS another crime. Better to not answer. |
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Posted: 6/26/2017 4:22:23 PM EDT
[#16]
The only case I've read where reloaded ammo was an issue was in a suicide. Wife kills herself with ammo her husband made for her gun, refered as "Bunny Fart ammo". Police didn't believe it was a suicide due to the lack of stipling on her hand.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 2:39:48 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"You have the right to remain silent." Lying to police or Fed investigators IS another crime. Better to not answer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you use matching headstamps and consistent bullets, law enforcement won't know they are handloads unless you tell them. There is no reason to do that unless you're specifically asked that question. Lying to police or Fed investigators IS another crime. Better to not answer. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:11:31 AM EDT
[#18]
How far do we take this logic?
People defend themselves with whatever they can when threatened. So say I grab a Vase from a nearby shelf to hit my attacker with. Does it matter if it's a store-bought vase? What if I'm really into pottery? Will the DA throw me under the jail? If I'm drinking a beer, and hit my attacker with a homebrew beer bottle vs budweiser, that's why I go to jail? What if I use my walking stick? Will they run the forensics to determine if I bought it from the sandal wearing homos at REI, or if it was from a tree in the public wilderness, or a tree I planed in my own yard? The entire idea is pants on head retarded. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 12:31:31 PM EDT
[#19]
LOL!...love the flower vase to the head scenario.
A couple have mentioned whether the police, prosecutor, forensics, etc. would even realize a given bullet used in a shooting was a handload, and I touched a little bit on that in an earlier post that I'd never seen the issue come up in numerous shootings and homicides that I had observed. I really think the bullet would have to be something unique to even be noticed by police or forensics...my joke about the armor piercing ammo being an example. If a reloader is using somewhat common bullet components available on the open market, it probably just wouldn't jump out even to a forensic specialist in a lab. This does make me wonder about powder coated bullets and such, but I'm really not sure about that. Now, if we we're talking about an assassination of a president or very high profile government official, this level of scrutiny would probably change just due to the historical and social implications. For a defensive shooting there would have to be something very unusual and unique occurring before reloaded ammo would have a serious evidentiary impact. Unless one is using some kind of crazy explosive bullets or depleted uranium projectiles, as the poster of the flower vase to the head scenario suggested, it makes little difference that the vase was antique or Walmart. On the disclosure aspect of the ammo source, I wouldn't volunteer anything. In a defensive shooting it has become very logical and rational to enlist the assistance of an attorney...and not really because of the ammo type. It sucks, but it's the world we live in now. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 1:55:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I'm drinking a beer, and hit my attacker with a homebrew beer bottle vs budweiser, that's why I go to jail? What if I use my walking stick? Will they run the forensics to determine if I bought it from the sandal wearing homos at REI, or if it was from a tree in the public wilderness, or a tree I planed in my own yard? The entire idea is pants on head retarded. P.S. - It's "craft beer" not "home brew", which sounds like bootleg. It's Birkenstocks not "sandals". Tree branches are Federally protected in wilderness areas and it's against the law to take them. 
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Posted: 6/27/2017 2:11:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Please try to stay on topic so this thread can continue.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 2:36:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I could tell, without even looking, that you do not live in California. P.S. - It's "craft beer" not "home brew", which sounds like bootleg. It's Birkenstocks not "sandals". Tree branches are Federally protected in wilderness areas and it's against the law to take them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If I'm drinking a beer, and hit my attacker with a homebrew beer bottle vs budweiser, that's why I go to jail? What if I use my walking stick? Will they run the forensics to determine if I bought it from the sandal wearing homos at REI, or if it was from a tree in the public wilderness, or a tree I planed in my own yard? The entire idea is pants on head retarded. P.S. - It's "craft beer" not "home brew", which sounds like bootleg. It's Birkenstocks not "sandals". Tree branches are Federally protected in wilderness areas and it's against the law to take them. The average cop, lawyer/DA is vaguely aware that guns require bullets. The really advanced experts are aware that there are different calibers. A few may even know that different calibers require different ammo. If he surprised of there were enough of them in the State, that know that reloading is a thing, to fill a porta potty. Even if you found that unicorn, it would have no bearing on whether or not a shooting is justified. Hellen Keller can see that. The entire concept is pants on head retarded. A problem invented by gun writers, who fancy themselves lawyers, so they have something to write about. You are pretty high up on Marslows hierarchy, if this is the kind of shit you worry about. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 2:55:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Is your life worth a $20 box of tactical ammo? Must not be for OP. Probably doesn't wear a helmet.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:06:43 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are pretty high up on Marslows hierarchy, if this is the kind of shit you worry about.
Oh well, humor is hard on the internet, that's for sure. <-- note smiley
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:17:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is your life worth a $20 box of tactical ammo? Must not be for OP. Probably doesn't wear a helmet. It's better for you to load the same projectile, in the same case, with the same primer, and many times to the same powder, to the same velocity, where you are the QC manager, and you check every round that you load. I have never had one single failure with any of my handgun ammunition out of probably 65,000 rounds. Not one. I had one when I was working up a load, ( started the load with too little powder ) but never in producing my own ammo with a recipe I've already worked up. So, I have a 1 / 65,000 record. There isn't an ammo factory in the world that can match that, or even come close, and, I can load that $20 box for $5. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:18:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Finger is hovering over the "Move" icon ...
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:24:17 PM EDT
[#27]
To add to my post above,
Speer Gold Dot 9mm 115gr from SGammo is $19.95 / 50. I can load that same 50rd box, identical components and performance, with better quality control, for $11.56. On the .45acp 230gr XTP loads I used to load , I beat Hornady's price by a wider margin. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:38:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Finger is hovering over the "Move" icon ... |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:45:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To add to my post above, Speer Gold Dot 9mm 115gr from SGammo is $19.95 / 50. I can load that same 50rd box, identical components and performance, with better quality control, for $11.56. On the .45acp 230gr XTP loads I used to load , I beat Hornady's price by a wider margin. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:48:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Why would you use handloads anyway?
"Muh bullitts is mo acurate".......Sure they are, and it really matters at justifiable handgun self defense ranges.... "Muh bullits is like a nuclar bomb, I fills 'em with liquid Mercury out of the thermometers!"......Yea, ok Cooter, you been in the heat too long, should have kept the thermometers.... "Muh bullits is mo reliable"......Everything can fail, the fucking Space Shuttle has turned into a bottle rocket twice in my lifetime....but I've seen a hell of a lot more issues with reloads than factory ammo.... "They don't make boolits for my old horse pistol"......Get something worth carrying. "I'm so fucking poor I can't pay attention"....Well, Ok, maybe so.... I just can't see a good reason to do it. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:49:35 PM EDT
[#31]
I'll stick with factory loads but if handholds were all I had, I used them. Better me and my household be alive and unhurt than the perpetrator causing any harm.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:50:19 PM EDT
[#32]
I have always used the same ammunition of the local PD or agency I am working for.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 3:57:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Keep your hand loads in factory boxes
Don't offer information that isn't asked for Let your attorney do your talking for you |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:02:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is your life worth a $20 box of tactical ammo? Must not be for OP. Probably doesn't wear a helmet.  Attached Filewe're in GD now, ...Smoke if you got'em
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:08:39 PM EDT
[#35]
I usually shoot commercial loads for home defense until I know my own loads have a certain muzzle velocity. The bullets are usually Hornady hollow points for my handguns, and it doesn't matter for my rifles.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:11:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Dupe? I recall a thread about this topic in GD last week, might still be active ...
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:12:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With modern factory ammo being readily available, I see no reason in favor of using handloads. I DO see unscrupulous District Attorneys using handloads against the defendant. This has happened in the past, and there is no good reason, given very good modern handgun ammo, to not use very good factory ammo in a self-defense HG or rifle. My practice is to ask local cops what ammo they use, and use the same thing. YMMV. Today I'd be more concerned about using reloads, even those that are clones of established self defense rounds, because of the threat of a dead perp's family hiring an ambulance chaser who would use the fact I used "evil man-killer reloads" to defend myself against the perp. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:13:29 PM EDT
[#38]
no way. I want good companies with pros manufacturing my SD ammo.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:16:20 PM EDT
[#39]
How would this even come up in court or during the investigation? I'm guessing it would be an issue only if you made a silly statement along the lines of "I shot the bad guy with the ammo that I made myself to be extra deadly, with the depleted uranium razor jacket poison tipped bullets."
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:16:21 PM EDT
[#40]
NO
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:22:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't knw bout going to jail for using reloads, but Mas Ayoob has mentioned multiple stories of users of handloads being persecuted in exactly that account by liberal DAs. He has not been able to provide a case where the gun being home made (or modified) was a decisive or even a significant factor in a criminal conviction or a civil award (for an intentional defensive shooting). The only valid applicability of evidentiary value for modded guns is for cases of a ND, where the shooter is sued for negligence. That's not viable unless the shooter doesn't use self defense as his legal defense and instead claims the shooting was an accident. It would be very difficult for someone to claim their hand loaded ammo fired autonomously causing death or injury. Even more impossible for the prosecution or the next of kin to obtain a judgement on that basis against a defendant who asserts the shot was intentional. Most likely the cases Ayoob has tried to apply as precedent are cases where the reloads issue was brought up, but even cursory review of the actual trial transcripts, jury instructions or judgement clearly indicate that it had nothing to do with how the case was actually decided. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:38:53 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm less concerned about criminal charges over using hand loads than I was 40 years ago. Back then people creating their own "man-stopper loads" was taken by some district attorneys to be as bad as owning and using those "evil Black Talon cop killer bullets". Today I'd be more concerned about using reloads, even those that are clones of established self defense rounds, because of the threat of a dead perp's family hiring an ambulance chaser who would use the fact I used "evil man-killer reloads" to defend myself against the perp. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:40:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are making the argument, the burden of proof falls on you. And simply referring to Ayoob is an appeal to authority, which is not very convincing in general. In this context it's particularly unconvincing, because Ayoob's claims with regards to modified weapons have also been shown to be without much legal merit. He has not been able to provide a case where the gun being home made (or modified) was a decisive or even a significant factor in a criminal conviction or a civil award (for an intentional defensive shooting). The only valid applicability of evidentiary value for modded guns is for cases of a ND, where the shooter is sued for negligence. That's not viable unless the shooter doesn't use self defense as his legal defense and instead claims the shooting was an accident. It would be very difficult for someone to claim their hand loaded ammo fired autonomously causing death or injury. Even more impossible for the prosecution or the next of kin to obtain a judgement on that basis against a defendant who asserts the shot was intentional. Most likely the cases Ayoob has tried to apply as precedent are cases where the reloads issue was brought up, but even cursory review of the actual trial transcripts, jury instructions or judgement clearly indicate that it had nothing to do with how the case was actually decided. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:42:50 PM EDT
[#44]
Outside of home, no way... Inside, sure.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 4:43:57 PM EDT
[#45]
Did anyone else misread the title of this thread at first? Thats one way to take the fight out of a bugler.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 5:00:54 PM EDT
[#46]
Poll fail!
No option for shotgun! I use Winchester AA 12 gauge hulls and 7 to 7.5 lead birdshot, 1 ounce payload in a Claybuster wad. I make my own birdshot too, hence the 7 to 7.5 range I listed above. 
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Posted: 6/27/2017 5:18:22 PM EDT
[#47]
How would they be able to tell if they were hand loads or factory loads. I'm sure it's possible with today's technology.
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Posted: 6/27/2017 5:23:31 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use factory ammo because it tends to be more reliable than hand-loads. For self defense I want it to work. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 5:26:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's called justifiable homicide for a reason. Mods should lock these dumb threads as soon as they pop up. Never in the history of firearms has this ever happened. No one has ever gone to jail for using home reloads, ever. It does a disservice to the reloading world to perpetuate this myth. |
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Posted: 6/27/2017 5:27:59 PM EDT
[#50]
I know not of Massad Ayoob, other than reading here and people seem admire his input.
I do know I was in several CHL classes, before the newish recertification laws in Texas, that were taught by one of the local Criminal Judges. He said to never use hand loads for SD. It would make it too easy for a DA to make a case that you "meant" to kill an attacker, or you were "looking" for trouble. I figure it is the opinion of one, but the one who may be presiding over your case if ever forced to protect yourself or property. He does his part in making sure the residents are fairly dealt with, and come to think of it the DA isn't all that bad ether if it looks justified. It's hard to ask for much better, especially when reading some of the nightmares people have to deal with. |
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