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Posted: 3/23/2017 12:12:54 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How in the fuck can they, in the same breath, decry the fact the FBI is investigating trump and his campaign for russia ties AND deny there was surveillance? these are mutually exclusive outrages being expressed simultaneously. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 12:16:24 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
remember if you are monitoring EVERYONE at trump tower, if you monitor trump and his advisors, its only "incidental" Bunch of dickless cucks. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 12:24:22 AM EDT
[#3]
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Murder never happens, because it's against the law. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 12:25:14 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it has teeth, it can bite. Capability has never been in question. Has it? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 12:28:03 AM EDT
[#5]
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Do you believe the government collects and stores all of your phone calls and emails? If one of your Marines said all the shit Clapper and the "muh safeguards" brigade on here spouted, would you trust him at all? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 12:34:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why should I trust them? They haven't been honest at all. If one of your Marines said all the shit Clapper and the "muh safeguards" brigade on here spouted, would you trust him at all? |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 12:42:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Be cool, or he'll call you angry and irrational instead of admitting he's wrong again. Because intellectuals. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why should I trust them? They haven't been honest at all. If one of your Marines said all the shit Clapper and the "muh safeguards" brigade on here spouted, would you trust him at all? Those same intellectuals will call people racist for citing statistics, and equate patriotism with nationalism (code for 1930s germany.) As long as you use $10 words for worthless hyperbole, it's okay cause muh progress |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 6:58:28 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The point of the late Obama administration change that caused wider distribution of intelligence reports was to make the distro list so big that leakers couldn't be identified. Also, I doubt that anyone who could finger Obama would flip. Obama would probably be isolated by at least two layers, and only someone like Valarie Jarrett would be talking to him directly. And she's not going to flip. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There won't be anything with a POTUS fingerprint on it. That will come when someone in DoJ or NSC flips. Before the change, it went to the NSA first, who then put the mask on any names that needed to be masked. After the change, the intercepts were distributed to all those 16 agencies with no names masked and the decision to mask whomever was now up to them. Those 16 agencies could have had access before but only to intercepts redacted by the NSA. Now, they have access to unredacted copies. this is an important nuance that is getting lost. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:18:00 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then that is also broken. If people lost their jobs in the intel community, every person in that community should know about it in as much detail as possible. You should not "believe" that these people lost their jobs, you should know it with certainty. You see, our modern intelligence community has a tremendous ability to look both outward and inward. That latter ability is extremely dangerous and should be treated like a plutonium core. You guys have capabilities to spy on Americans domestically that East Germany's Stasi would have given their collective right nuts to have. This is a dangerous world and that capability can be quite useful to our national security at times. But, if it is misused, it is one of the most corrosive acids imaginable to the integrity of our democracy. It can only exit in peace with the American public as long as they are confident that it is being used responsibly and for the right ends. Once a majority of the public believes that this awesome power is being abused ..... all trust between the people and their government immediately vanishes. That is why it is so important that when there are those that are caught misusing this power, it is imperative that they be punished swiftly and potently. When incidence of misuse occur, every person with access to this type of information and capability should see demonstrated in no uncertain terms exactly what the consequences of that abuse are. I have no confidence that what I have outlined is how things are operating now. Again, over the years we have had several members with intel backgrounds give some insight as to the type and volume of (mandatory) training received relative to privacy requirements for use of the systems we are discussing, including examples of misuse and consequences. As long as the human element exists the potential for abuse exists with it. That is exactly why automated checks and balances are engineered into the tech. Are they perfect? Of course not, but the tech is what allowed knowledge of the abuse and punishment of those responsible. We are otherwise in agreement that the punishments, as described, should be swifter and harsher. It was pointed out earlier that the timeline for delivering punishment in some cases was limited by the framework governing federal employees. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:44:23 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it is broken then it is broken in the sense that I do not remember the details of each individual case on a document I read several years ago and do not care to go find again for a refresher. It gets a bit fuzzier when some of the cases involved uniformed personnel where "loss of job" is not as cut and dry as it is in the civilian sector. Again, over the years we have had several members with intel backgrounds give some insight as to the type and volume of (mandatory) training received relative to privacy requirements for use of the systems we are discussing, including examples of misuse and consequences. As long as the human element exists the potential for abuse exists with it. That is exactly why automated checks and balances are engineered into the tech. Are they perfect? Of course not, but the tech is what allowed knowledge of the abuse and punishment of those responsible. We are otherwise in agreement that the punishments, as described, should be swifter and harsher. It was pointed out earlier that the timeline for delivering punishment in some cases was limited by the framework governing federal employees. We out here in the public just have to hope/assume that those that abuse these powers are being punished. Frankly, I no longer feel like I owe the government the benefit of the doubt in this area. If I never hear about punishment, my assumption is it never occurred. You guys in the intel community are playing with fire. You are helping erode what little faith anyone has remaining in their government. This is not likely to turn out well. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:02:00 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The God Emperor shines upon all of us. Have faith and you will be guided by his benevolence. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No, it looks like he tweeted stupid bullshit again and has zero proof. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:05:09 AM EDT
[#12]
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Wouldn't be legal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm not calling anything "incidental." Nunes is calling it incidental. I maintain the same position since the beginning of this thread... If this was targeting Trump, then it's illegal and political and needs to be made public, so that those who did it can be jailed. If this was legitimately targeting a Foreign Agent who happened to be talking to the Trump campaign, that's a different story. Even so, those who leaked it need to be jailed. (it strikes me as the same as a Police Officer intentionally stepping in front of a moving car...and claiming they tried to run him down, so he was able to arrest them and search the car....hopefully we get something like a 'dashboard cam/body cam video' to show what really happened....) |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:10:44 AM EDT
[#13]
DRIP.
DRIP. DRIP. 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:25:14 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even swift and harsh punishment is only effective if it is also well known. We out here in the public just have to hope/assume that those that abuse these powers are being punished. Frankly, I no longer feel like I owe the government the benefit of the doubt in this area. If I never hear about punishment, my assumption is it never occurred. You guys in the intel community are playing with fire. You are helping erode what little faith anyone has remaining in their government. This is not likely to turn out well. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:30:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's easy to get into a negative feedback loop while forgetting that the nature of the job mandates secrecy. The point that it is not as secret as it was a few years ago is valid but I am not sure how you could publicly flog someone for violations relative to covert surveillance systems. The proper forum would be the recurring Congressional reporting, though even in that setting the details would be obscured. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:44:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's easy to get into a negative feedback loop while forgetting that the nature of the job mandates secrecy. The point that it is not as secret as it was a few years ago is valid but I am not sure how you could publicly flog someone for violations relative to covert surveillance systems. The proper forum would be the recurring Congressional reporting, though even in that setting the details would be obscured. The fact remains that the intelligence community has largely lost the trust of the American people. Do you not understand that you can not have these awesome powers while not having our trust? At least not in the long run. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:47:50 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well then I guess I'd rather just be "less safe" and get rid of all this shit then, since apparently there's no way to control it properly. Apparently we'll have to be less safe since these people will not police themselves and neither we nor our elected representatives have been given access to the information to police them. We can't have these people running open loop like this. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:55:43 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is the conclusion I've reached. Apparently we'll have to be less safe since these people will not police themselves and neither we nor our elected representatives have been given access to the information to police them. We can't have these people running open loop like this. That said, I have been an advocate of external (read: outside .gov) oversight for quite a while. The trick is finding a workable framework which provides the necessary access while protecting the integrity of valid programs. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:57:54 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even swift and harsh punishment is only effective if it is also well known. We out here in the public just have to hope/assume that those that abuse these powers are being punished. Frankly, I no longer feel like I owe the government the benefit of the doubt in this area. If I never hear about punishment, my assumption is it never occurred. You guys in the intel community are playing with fire. You are helping erode what little faith anyone has remaining in their government. This is not likely to turn out well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If it is broken then it is broken in the sense that I do not remember the details of each individual case on a document I read several years ago and do not care to go find again for a refresher. It gets a bit fuzzier when some of the cases involved uniformed personnel where "loss of job" is not as cut and dry as it is in the civilian sector. Again, over the years we have had several members with intel backgrounds give some insight as to the type and volume of (mandatory) training received relative to privacy requirements for use of the systems we are discussing, including examples of misuse and consequences. As long as the human element exists the potential for abuse exists with it. That is exactly why automated checks and balances are engineered into the tech. Are they perfect? Of course not, but the tech is what allowed knowledge of the abuse and punishment of those responsible. We are otherwise in agreement that the punishments, as described, should be swifter and harsher. It was pointed out earlier that the timeline for delivering punishment in some cases was limited by the framework governing federal employees. We out here in the public just have to hope/assume that those that abuse these powers are being punished. Frankly, I no longer feel like I owe the government the benefit of the doubt in this area. If I never hear about punishment, my assumption is it never occurred. You guys in the intel community are playing with fire. You are helping erode what little faith anyone has remaining in their government. This is not likely to turn out well. When Good Men do nothing. Edit : I think I may have misinterpreted your post.... |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 8:58:17 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How in the fuck can they, in the same breath, decry the fact the FBI is investigating trump and his campaign for russia ties AND deny there was surveillance? these are mutually exclusive outrages being expressed simultaneously. Of course, it turns out that the Administration was spying on Trump as part of their investigation. And what was the purpose of that investigation...........to trash Trump's presidency and hopefully get him impeached...........as the democraps/MSM have alluded to numerous times already. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:00:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DRIP. DRIP. DRIP. 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:04:17 AM EDT
[#22]
I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative.
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:05:26 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Engage in systematic violation of the 4th then act surprised and bewildered when the elements of those crimes are turned on them. I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:07:17 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even swift and harsh punishment is only effective if it is also well known. We out here in the public just have to hope/assume that those that abuse these powers are being punished. Frankly, I no longer feel like I owe the government the benefit of the doubt in this area. If I never hear about punishment, my assumption is it never occurred. You guys in the intel community are playing with fire. You are helping erode what little faith anyone has remaining in their government. This is not likely to turn out well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If it is broken then it is broken in the sense that I do not remember the details of each individual case on a document I read several years ago and do not care to go find again for a refresher. It gets a bit fuzzier when some of the cases involved uniformed personnel where "loss of job" is not as cut and dry as it is in the civilian sector. Again, over the years we have had several members with intel backgrounds give some insight as to the type and volume of (mandatory) training received relative to privacy requirements for use of the systems we are discussing, including examples of misuse and consequences. As long as the human element exists the potential for abuse exists with it. That is exactly why automated checks and balances are engineered into the tech. Are they perfect? Of course not, but the tech is what allowed knowledge of the abuse and punishment of those responsible. We are otherwise in agreement that the punishments, as described, should be swifter and harsher. It was pointed out earlier that the timeline for delivering punishment in some cases was limited by the framework governing federal employees. We out here in the public just have to hope/assume that those that abuse these powers are being punished. Frankly, I no longer feel like I owe the government the benefit of the doubt in this area. If I never hear about punishment, my assumption is it never occurred. You guys in the intel community are playing with fire. You are helping erode what little faith anyone has remaining in their government. This is not likely to turn out well. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:07:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:11:53 AM EDT
[#26]
47 harddrives with 600 millionpages of info going back on judges and other high level people. This may be why Roberts screwed us on ObamaCare.
http://investmentwatchblog.com/fbi-director-james-comey-lied-to-congress-about-trump-surveillance/ 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:16:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One thing y'all are missing on this point: Before the change, it went to the NSA first, who then put the mask on any names that needed to be masked. After the change, the intercepts were distributed to all those 16 agencies with no names masked and the decision to mask whomever was now up to them. Those 16 agencies could have had access before but only to intercepts redacted by the NSA. Now, they have access to unredacted copies. this is an important nuance that is getting lost. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:22:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is the official storyline. Probably not any more true than anything else Clapper, Comey and co have said. Its well known that the DEA has been using the NSA information for years. Hence the whole "parallel construction" thing. Comey is puzzling to me...........he appears sincerely honest in his remarks..............yet we have this bullshit that comes out of his mouth.........that guy is puzzling to me...........is he a fucking habitual liar or what!!?? 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:24:13 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
47 harddrives with 600 millionpages of info going back on judges and other high level people. This may be why Roberts screwed us on ObamaCare. http://investmentwatchblog.com/fbi-director-james-comey-lied-to-congress-about-trump-surveillance/ https://i.redd.it/vsmhpln3e2ny.png Infuriating. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:31:39 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clapper is an obvious piece of shit lying scumbag who puts on airs of "honesty". Comey is puzzling to me...........he appears sincerely honest in his remarks..............yet we have this bullshit that comes out of his mouth.........that guy is puzzling to me...........is he a fucking habitual liar or what!!?? Anyone else would have offed himself or been committed to an asylum years ago. 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:34:09 AM EDT
[#31]
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Not really, but nuance was never your strong suit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative. Then again, maybe it really is all BS and nothing was actually leaked. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 9:36:06 AM EDT
[#32]
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Anybody who can continuously put out that amount of pure 100% pure refined bullshit is a Tier 1 operator grade A sociopath. Anyone else would have offed himself or been committed to an asylum years ago. http://cdn.charismanews.com/images/stories/2016/09/James-Comey-Closeup-Reuters.jpg |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:31:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The alternative is to keep everyone's head in the sand ? When Good Men do nothing. Edit : I think I may have misinterpreted your post.... |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:35:20 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not really, but nuance was never your strong suit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:37:00 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That could be........I admit that something is "off" with him in this regard..........I mean, something ain't right IMHO. Washington is full of people who do that. Some do it more gracefully than others. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:46:17 AM EDT
[#36]
Comey knows Trump has put him in a corner..
 Comey hearing was very enlightening |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:47:05 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What we know with reasonable certainty right now vis a vis the Flynn situation is bad enough. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:49:00 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative. 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:50:15 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed. Incidental collection was likely a non-issue given the circumstances known at the time. Release of the details (if it came through our people) is a big deal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What we know with reasonable certainty right now vis a vis the Flynn situation is bad enough. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:51:16 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed. Incidental collection was likely a non-issue given the circumstances known at the time. Release of the details (if it came through our people) is a big deal. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 10:58:54 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What came first was the unmasking of Flynn in widely disseminated internal documents which one can only conclude was done with the hope that it would be leaked. The person that did that is your first culprit. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:00:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As you have noted previously, the sticky issue is that we were only in control of one half of that phone call. The possibility remains that we are dealing with several separate, but converging, issues Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What came first was the unmasking of Flynn in widely disseminated internal documents which one can only conclude was done with the hope that it would be leaked. The person that did that is your first culprit. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:03:59 AM EDT
[#43]
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I want to know where all the brave patriots in the IC were to put a stop to this? Bunch of dickless cucks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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remember if you are monitoring EVERYONE at trump tower, if you monitor trump and his advisors, its only "incidental" Bunch of dickless cucks. The gravy train makes for a lot of rationalization. There are people no longer in my circle of friends over that. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:09:02 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative. 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:10:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative. He ain't gonna let this go unchallenged and disappear into the wind. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:11:59 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clapper is an obvious piece of shit lying scumbag who puts on airs of "honesty". Comey is puzzling to me...........he appears sincerely honest in his remarks..............yet we have this bullshit that comes out of his mouth.........that guy is puzzling to me...........is he a fucking habitual liar or what!!?? Now comes the Trump term and he's lying low - until Trump tweets that he was wiretapped. Everyone inside the Beltway knows that domestic spying is handled by the FBI, so now Comey is in full damage control mode. Remember, one of the three prime directives is avoid blame. Comey will now do his best to cover everything up, or if that fails, blame someone else. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:13:55 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What came first was the unmasking of Flynn in widely disseminated internal documents which one can only conclude was done with the hope that it would be leaked. The person that did that is your first culprit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Agreed. Incidental collection was likely a non-issue given the circumstances known at the time. Release of the details (if it came through our people) is a big deal. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:14:42 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Comey is your classic bureaucrat. All he wants is a promotion, the dental plan, and to not get blamed for anything that would jeopardize the first two. He almost assuredly drank the Washington Kool-Aid during the Obama years, believing that the Republicans were losers (they were) and that the Democrats would be the dominant force for the foreseeable future (which would have happened but for Trump). This means he plays ball with Obama's corruption. But he has a reputation for a straight shooter. So Obama saves that card for a real mess. That mess comes with the Hillary emails, Foundation, etc. Comey initially plays ball until he realizes that he is the fall guy for this shit. He clears Hillary at the expense of his reputation, and at the expense of the loyalty of his FBI agents who are in open revolt. So he does that strange dance at the end where he delivers the letter, and then later says nothing came of the new investigation into Wiener. Now comes the Trump term and he's lying low - until Trump tweets that he was wiretapped. Everyone inside the Beltway knows that domestic spying is handled by the FBI, so now Comey is in full damage control mode. Remember, one of the three prime directives is avoid blame. Comey will now do his best to cover everything up, or if that fails, blame someone else. What I DO KNOW is something is off with Comey...........WAY OFF!! 
I really didn't think he was like this...........appears I was MASSIVELY wrong. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:16:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A helicopter ride will help clear their minds. 
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Posted: 3/23/2017 11:25:46 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed we have suddenly progressed past the whole, it can't possibly happen, narrative. Now we are in the, well there's not much that can be done about it, narrative. |
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