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Posted: 2/23/2017 8:54:23 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is where im at. Shit kids walking all over the place fucking up the neighborhood? Sure. Did he mouth off something about shooting? Probably. Should something be done about it if this was the real america still? Hell yah. But, that cop mustve had a flash of thought for a second "Am I going to be the next zimmerman?" Then he proceeded to do everything in his power to become the next zimmerman. Bad choice. He was kind of like Custer, the really bad choices were made way earlier in the fight. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 8:54:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Cops.
That one is fucked. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 8:59:07 AM EDT
[#3]
honestly I can see justification when those kids jumped the hedge and came at him he was way overwhelmed - under the circumstances I think he'll get a talking to but not much more. the obvious question is how did this all get started, and was all this while waiting for the cops to arrive, because if that guy was detaining a suspect and facing a mob, I dont even see a talking to.
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Posted: 2/23/2017 8:59:11 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think much of that stuff flies when he's in his dungarees on his lawn. "I didn't think he was a cop, I thought he was a pervert who was going to take Jose into his garage and ass fuck him" If I was driving to the grocery store and saw that guy had one of my kid's friends by the neck (okay if they were 14 and not 4) I wouldn't tackle the guy but "Get the fuck out of here I'm a cop" wouldn't get me to hop back in my car and leave one of the neighbor kids by himself. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:00:01 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think much of that stuff flies when he's in his dungarees on his lawn. "I didn't think he was a cop, I thought he was a pervert who was going to take Jose into his garage and ass fuck him" If I was driving to the grocery store and saw that guy had one of my kid's friends by the neck (okay if they were 14 and not 4) I wouldn't tackle the guy but "Get the fuck out of here I'm a cop" wouldn't get me to hop back in my car and leave one of the neighbor kids by himself. Off duty means off duty. It wasn't like the LEO was stopping a forcible felony. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:22:28 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
100% You can tell when someone has had actual personal experience with this sort and who hasn't. Dude was about to get jumped and stomped Whats really sad is there is literally nothing you can do to win if placed into that situation anymore. The safest response I guess is just let the "teens" do whatever they want and sit like a hostage/coward in your own home. Hello Anarcho-Tyranny (basically the underclass does what they wish, and the good guys can do nothing, and if they do the full force of the State will be brought against you). None of that is to say this was handled well, but I understand. How about acting like a mature adult? Say, "Please don't walk on my yard Maam. See where the grass is getting worn down?"" Instead of, "Hay, stupid cunt get off of my lawn!!!" and then dragging her white knight around by the neck. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:23:44 AM EDT
[#7]
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Not a great situation, but does him not being in uniform change anything? Lawful orders and all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Besides the ND I also don't see a problem, the guy needs some remedial firearms training and a suspension without pay for a week so he can work on his firearm adequacy. Regardless if he was a cop or not, people were trespassing on his property he told them to leave, they refused, he held one so they could be arrested for trespassing, and for defending his own home they were going to attack him. He was morally in the right. That ND will probably cost him his job. There's what may be perceived as morally right. Then there is right in the eyes of society; in his area of operations. It won't be perceived as detaining a tresspasser, it will be that he assaulted a kid. Presenting his weapon for self defense? No, brandishing a weapon and then showing incompetency in its use. He only pulled it after he got surrounded. You mean after he had every chance in the book to get himself out of the altercation? What kind of self defense classes are you guys taking where they tell you to sit around when you get surrounded by aggressive teens and just wait for the police? GTFO of there! Not a great situation, but does him not being in uniform change anything? Lawful orders and all. Yeah, it does. I can imagine how that conversation went down. "I know it looks like I'm pulling your essay back to my house to throw him in Uncle Touchy's basement of debasement, but in reality I'm just Officer Friendly doing some community outreach. Now that we have that settled, would someone call Zed for me?" |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:27:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Not enough info yet on this one.
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:29:49 AM EDT
[#9]
In his defense...He does have a dam nice lawn!
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:29:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, it does. I can imagine how that conversation went down. "I know it looks like I'm pulling your essay back to my house to throw him in Uncle Touchy's basement of debasement, but in reality I'm just Officer Friendly doing some community outreach. Now that we have that settled, would someone call Zed for me?" Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Besides the ND I also don't see a problem, the guy needs some remedial firearms training and a suspension without pay for a week so he can work on his firearm adequacy. Regardless if he was a cop or not, people were trespassing on his property he told them to leave, they refused, he held one so they could be arrested for trespassing, and for defending his own home they were going to attack him. He was morally in the right. That ND will probably cost him his job. There's what may be perceived as morally right. Then there is right in the eyes of society; in his area of operations. It won't be perceived as detaining a tresspasser, it will be that he assaulted a kid. Presenting his weapon for self defense? No, brandishing a weapon and then showing incompetency in its use. He only pulled it after he got surrounded. You mean after he had every chance in the book to get himself out of the altercation? What kind of self defense classes are you guys taking where they tell you to sit around when you get surrounded by aggressive teens and just wait for the police? GTFO of there! Not a great situation, but does him not being in uniform change anything? Lawful orders and all. Yeah, it does. I can imagine how that conversation went down. "I know it looks like I'm pulling your essay back to my house to throw him in Uncle Touchy's basement of debasement, but in reality I'm just Officer Friendly doing some community outreach. Now that we have that settled, would someone call Zed for me?" Sure, except the kids knew he was a cop. So if undercover Narcs pull guns and say "POLICE", you can bang out assuming your being robbed at gunpoint and they're not LEO? |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:31:40 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't care who you are, you don't accidentally pull a trigger. Even the "experts" have ND's 
http://panteao.com/uncut-travis-haley-nd-video/ |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:32:03 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Off duty means off duty. It wasn't like the LEO was stopping a forcible felony. This. Cops would haul my ass to jail if I drug a kid around the yard for walking on the grass. At that level of irrational thinking, He might as well started shooting them all in the face. Street creds and all. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:33:44 AM EDT
[#13]
Not stating that he is right or wrong, but one lesson to take is that after already embroiled in that conflict, the only language those punks understood was the sound of that gun being fired.
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:34:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Time to move.
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:36:53 AM EDT
[#15]
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Sure, except the kids knew he was a cop. So if undercover Narcs pull guns and say "POLICE", you can bang out assuming your being robbed at gunpoint and they're not LEO? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Besides the ND I also don't see a problem, the guy needs some remedial firearms training and a suspension without pay for a week so he can work on his firearm adequacy. Regardless if he was a cop or not, people were trespassing on his property he told them to leave, they refused, he held one so they could be arrested for trespassing, and for defending his own home they were going to attack him. He was morally in the right. That ND will probably cost him his job. There's what may be perceived as morally right. Then there is right in the eyes of society; in his area of operations. It won't be perceived as detaining a tresspasser, it will be that he assaulted a kid. Presenting his weapon for self defense? No, brandishing a weapon and then showing incompetency in its use. He only pulled it after he got surrounded. You mean after he had every chance in the book to get himself out of the altercation? What kind of self defense classes are you guys taking where they tell you to sit around when you get surrounded by aggressive teens and just wait for the police? GTFO of there! Not a great situation, but does him not being in uniform change anything? Lawful orders and all. Yeah, it does. I can imagine how that conversation went down. "I know it looks like I'm pulling your essay back to my house to throw him in Uncle Touchy's basement of debasement, but in reality I'm just Officer Friendly doing some community outreach. Now that we have that settled, would someone call Zed for me?" Sure, except the kids knew he was a cop. So if undercover Narcs pull guns and say "POLICE", you can bang out assuming your being robbed at gunpoint and they're not LEO? The kids knew he was a cop? You sure about that? I heard several kids tell the guy that they had called the cops to get him off their friend, but I never saw him flash a badge or even tell them he was a cop. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:39:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The kids knew he was a cop? You sure about that? I heard several kids tell the guy that they had called the cops to get him off their friend, but I never saw him flash a badge or even tell them he was a cop. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Besides the ND I also don't see a problem, the guy needs some remedial firearms training and a suspension without pay for a week so he can work on his firearm adequacy. Regardless if he was a cop or not, people were trespassing on his property he told them to leave, they refused, he held one so they could be arrested for trespassing, and for defending his own home they were going to attack him. He was morally in the right. That ND will probably cost him his job. There's what may be perceived as morally right. Then there is right in the eyes of society; in his area of operations. It won't be perceived as detaining a tresspasser, it will be that he assaulted a kid. Presenting his weapon for self defense? No, brandishing a weapon and then showing incompetency in its use. He only pulled it after he got surrounded. You mean after he had every chance in the book to get himself out of the altercation? What kind of self defense classes are you guys taking where they tell you to sit around when you get surrounded by aggressive teens and just wait for the police? GTFO of there! Not a great situation, but does him not being in uniform change anything? Lawful orders and all. Yeah, it does. I can imagine how that conversation went down. "I know it looks like I'm pulling your essay back to my house to throw him in Uncle Touchy's basement of debasement, but in reality I'm just Officer Friendly doing some community outreach. Now that we have that settled, would someone call Zed for me?" Sure, except the kids knew he was a cop. So if undercover Narcs pull guns and say "POLICE", you can bang out assuming your being robbed at gunpoint and they're not LEO? The kids knew he was a cop? You sure about that? I heard several kids tell the guy that they had called the cops to get him off their friend, but I never saw him flash a badge or even tell them he was a cop. "I'm not resisting" is some pretty specific language for the kids to use. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:44:31 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryAt my former PD, we had a swat guy finger fuck his AR-15 in the armory. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:46:14 AM EDT
[#18]
What's the ROI on this incident?
Yeah, exactly. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:46:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Did everyone else miss the big dude tackle him before he dumped one into the ground?
Maybe I need to rewatch it. Kids in my neighborhood don't act that way. Mow em the fuck down. I don't feel for this type of people any more. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:56:14 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At my former PD, we had a swat guy finger fuck his AR-15 in the armory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
At my former PD, we had a swat guy finger fuck his AR-15 in the armory. Our "highly trained" ESU guys had a string of NDs back in 2010 and 2011. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:56:50 AM EDT
[#21]
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"I'm not resisting" is some pretty specific language for the kids to use. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Besides the ND I also don't see a problem, the guy needs some remedial firearms training and a suspension without pay for a week so he can work on his firearm adequacy. Regardless if he was a cop or not, people were trespassing on his property he told them to leave, they refused, he held one so they could be arrested for trespassing, and for defending his own home they were going to attack him. He was morally in the right. That ND will probably cost him his job. There's what may be perceived as morally right. Then there is right in the eyes of society; in his area of operations. It won't be perceived as detaining a tresspasser, it will be that he assaulted a kid. Presenting his weapon for self defense? No, brandishing a weapon and then showing incompetency in its use. He only pulled it after he got surrounded. You mean after he had every chance in the book to get himself out of the altercation? What kind of self defense classes are you guys taking where they tell you to sit around when you get surrounded by aggressive teens and just wait for the police? GTFO of there! Not a great situation, but does him not being in uniform change anything? Lawful orders and all. Yeah, it does. I can imagine how that conversation went down. "I know it looks like I'm pulling your essay back to my house to throw him in Uncle Touchy's basement of debasement, but in reality I'm just Officer Friendly doing some community outreach. Now that we have that settled, would someone call Zed for me?" Sure, except the kids knew he was a cop. So if undercover Narcs pull guns and say "POLICE", you can bang out assuming your being robbed at gunpoint and they're not LEO? The kids knew he was a cop? You sure about that? I heard several kids tell the guy that they had called the cops to get him off their friend, but I never saw him flash a badge or even tell them he was a cop. "I'm not resisting" is some pretty specific language for the kids to use. It does sound specific. Like the kid was told "stop resisting" and not "I'm a cop." |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 9:59:01 AM EDT
[#22]
They surely knew he was a cop which is probably part of the reason why they were hassling him to begin with. They poked the bear one too many times.
On the other hand I also think off duty cops should have to play by the same rules as everyone else. So...fry everyone involved. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:20:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How about acting like a mature adult? Say, "Please don't walk on my yard Maam. See where the grass is getting worn down?"" Instead of, "Hay, stupid cunt get off of my lawn!!!" and then dragging her white knight around by the neck. Property rights how do they work. Also if you listen to the cops side of things instead of the people who were initially breaking the law, after he told the female to leave the "white knight" also began trespassing, then if you watch the video all of the kids began to trespass. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:24:53 AM EDT
[#24]
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When someone is trespassing and they know it, you can call them a blue submarine and tell them they need to fuck start their own head. It's his property he can do what he wants on it. Property rights how do they work. Also if you listen to the cops side of things instead of the people who were initially breaking the law, after he told the female to leave the "white knight" also began trespassing, then if you watch the video all of the kids began to trespass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How about acting like a mature adult? Say, "Please don't walk on my yard Maam. See where the grass is getting worn down?"" Instead of, "Hay, stupid cunt get off of my lawn!!!" and then dragging her white knight around by the neck. Property rights how do they work. Also if you listen to the cops side of things instead of the people who were initially breaking the law, after he told the female to leave the "white knight" also began trespassing, then if you watch the video all of the kids began to trespass. The only time the kids were on his property in the video was when he dragged the kid there. Our flannel clad knight only had to trespass on two other properties to do it. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:25:36 AM EDT
[#25]
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Time to move. 
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:27:09 AM EDT
[#26]
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The only time the kids were on his property in the video was when he dragged the kid there. Our flannel clad knight only had to trespass on two other properties to do it. The events in which the female and male trespassed originally happened before the video started. Why would the kids video tape themselves breaking the law? The urban yutes didn't start recording until the cop already had detained the main shit talker. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:28:14 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryI'm assuming you get extra $$$ for being ESU? |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:29:49 AM EDT
[#28]
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It does sound specific. Like the kid was told "stop resisting" and not "I'm a cop." 
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:30:48 AM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:33:10 AM EDT
[#30]
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Off duty means off duty. It wasn't like the LEO was stopping a forcible felony. Shit, even on duty I wouldn't dare put my hands on kids for walking on neighborhood lawns. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:36:47 AM EDT
[#31]
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Was he the only one in da yard Yeah, don't pull you're gun on a bunch of school kids. Let him go, work it out another way. That dude is fucked. He should be fucked. What authority does he have to restrain a kid in that manner for walking on his lawn? Fuck that asshole! |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 10:45:14 AM EDT
[#32]
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Shit, even on duty I wouldn't dare put my hands on kids for walking on neighborhood lawns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Off duty means off duty. It wasn't like the LEO was stopping a forcible felony. Shit, even on duty I wouldn't dare put my hands on kids for walking on neighborhood lawns. Look at that cop and the trespassing teens in Mckinney, TX. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:00:36 AM EDT
[#33]
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He should be fucked. What authority does he have to restrain a kid in that manner for walking on his lawn? Fuck that asshole! But he's an off-duty LEO. 
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:02:16 AM EDT
[#34]
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Do I really have to explain this to you? The events in which the female and male trespassed originally happened before the video started. Why would the kids video tape themselves breaking the law? The urban yutes didn't start recording until the cop already had detained the main shit talker. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The only time the kids were on his property in the video was when he dragged the kid there. Our flannel clad knight only had to trespass on two other properties to do it. The events in which the female and male trespassed originally happened before the video started. Why would the kids video tape themselves breaking the law? The urban yutes didn't start recording until the cop already had detained the main shit talker. lol. Apparently I have to explain this to you. Our junior latina cut across his yard. An offense that carries no legal punishment if she leaves when asked - which she did. So our flanneled crusader starts cursing grandpa style from his front porch. Can't say I blame him. Then Hector, protector of m'lady's honor, tells Lt. Flannelgraph to go fornicate himself. Which, while crude, breaks no laws. But our flanneled protector can't tolerate a diss. So he chases Hector down the street and assaults a minor. Without bothering to identify himself as a cop, the flannel crusader attempts to answer the age old question of how many teenagers could you fight by yourself. This fight takes place across two yards that are not his because flannel man is so very concerned about property rights. When it looks like Hector's friends were going to save him from his trip to uncle touchy's basement of debasement, the flannel crusader demonstrates his fastest draw in the west skills. But why stop impressing the neighborhood kids with your fast draw when you can put a bullet...somewhere? The mini stand off he had with the responding cops was a nice touch too. That's some mighty fine off duty work there, lou. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:03:09 AM EDT
[#35]
If nothing else this video is great for demonstrating sympathetic muscle response. He pulls the trigger when he pulls on the kid. Keep your finger off the trigger dumbass.
Letting the kid go would most likely have de-escalated the situation, but I'm not sure I could let go of a 14 year old that threatened to shoot me either. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:09:50 AM EDT
[#36]
Off duty cop told kids to stay off grass. Kid responded by telling off duty cop he will shoot him. Cop identified himself and takes kid into custody for criminal threats. Kid tries to escape custody, mob tries to rescue the little felon from custody. Cop caps off a round. More than one kid went to jail.
Protestors show up later and vandalize cops neighbors house ?? |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:11:10 AM EDT
[#37]
Great job by the cops in protecting his property and that of his neighbors.
Apparently a fair number of cars were vandalized, graffiti written and house windows smashed. Mighty fine police work there boys. Can't even protect the home of one of your own. Then again the "give them space to destroy" directive may have come down from above the top of law enforcement. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:14:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Mexican carry
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:21:12 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
lol. Apparently I have to explain this to you. Our junior latina cut across his yard. An offense that carries no legal punishment if she leaves when asked - which she did. So our flanneled crusader starts cursing grandpa style from his front porch. Can't say I blame him. Then Hector, protector of m'lady's honor, tells Lt. Flannelgraph to go fornicate himself. Which, while crude, breaks no laws. But our flanneled protector can't tolerate a diss. So he chases Hector down the street and assaults a minor. Without bothering to identify himself as a cop, the flannel crusader attempts to answer the age old question of how many teenagers could you fight by yourself. This fight takes place across two yards that are not his because flannel man is so very concerned about property rights. When it looks like Hector's friends were going to save him from his trip to uncle touchy's basement of debasement, the flannel crusader demonstrates his fastest draw in the west skills. But why stop impressing the neighborhood kids with your fast draw when you can put a bullet...somewhere? The mini stand off he had with the responding cops was a nice touch too. That's some mighty fine off duty work there, lou. 
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:21:29 AM EDT
[#40]
Control freak who couldn't let some kids step on his lawn. Unable to back down once he asserts himself.
Bad ND. Cop is fucked. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:23:56 AM EDT
[#41]
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This off-duty cop = negligent, short fused dumb ass. Again, another situation where having a gun does not mean you need to use it. He's most likely going to lose his job then his house and his beautiful lawn. Don't want kids walking on your lawn? Turn on the sprinklers. Walk your pitbull at the same time. Plenty of options. This guy gives police and guns a bad name. Those "kids" were as big as he was and he didn't draw until one of them tried to flank him. My only question is what prompted him to grab that one and not let go, that's the key to whether it was justifiable or not. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:25:23 AM EDT
[#42]
What was his end game?
I don't know what he was doing or where he was going dragging that kid around? If you're going to carry your weapon, you better have restraint devices as well - dragging a kid around the neighborhood isn't a sound plan. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:26:24 AM EDT
[#43]
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Kind of sort of agree with you. I know kids like that, the only way to de-escalate them would be to go inside and close your blinds and lock your doors and let them fuck with your lawn until they got bored. Doing anything that you listed would draw their ire. The pitbull would work, but even that in a way is rolling over since they have forced you to do something. I still feel bad for the cop even if he was a hot head, at the end of the day all he wanted was for people to stop trespassing, it's really not asking much. One other option, get a third party involved. He could/should have called the police... |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:26:35 AM EDT
[#44]
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new york and LA are shitholes, around here the neighbors would pour out of their homes with ARs and told the kids to fuck off or feed the gators |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:27:09 AM EDT
[#45]
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Not stating that he is right or wrong, but one lesson to take is that after already embroiled in that conflict, the only language those punks understood was the sound of that gun being fired. Exactly. They didn't back off when the gun came out, they backed off when the shot was fired. That's all savages understand-violence. Which is why it was a waste of time for the cop to get involved in this in the first place. Unless he was prepared to go out and start dropping bodies on his lawn, he should have just stayed in the house. Like I said before, this is a situation that's best avoided by living in a nicer area. When you live in the zoo, you're going to cross paths with the animals sooner or later. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:29:01 AM EDT
[#46]
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How about acting like a mature adult? Say, "Please don't walk on my yard Maam. See where the grass is getting worn down?"" Instead of, "Hay, stupid cunt get off of my lawn!!!" and then dragging her white knight around by the neck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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100% You can tell when someone has had actual personal experience with this sort and who hasn't. Dude was about to get jumped and stomped Whats really sad is there is literally nothing you can do to win if placed into that situation anymore. The safest response I guess is just let the "teens" do whatever they want and sit like a hostage/coward in your own home. Hello Anarcho-Tyranny (basically the underclass does what they wish, and the good guys can do nothing, and if they do the full force of the State will be brought against you). None of that is to say this was handled well, but I understand. How about acting like a mature adult? Say, "Please don't walk on my yard Maam. See where the grass is getting worn down?"" Instead of, "Hay, stupid cunt get off of my lawn!!!" and then dragging her white knight around by the neck. I can see how much experience you've had with this type. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:32:10 AM EDT
[#47]
Be interesting to watch how this one turns out for the Officer
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:40:15 AM EDT
[#48]
Well, the bushes are ruined
That's messed up. I don't fault the cop for drawing but the ND wasn't necessary |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:49:44 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He should be fucked. What authority does he have to restrain a kid in that manner for walking on his lawn? Fuck that asshole! So does a citizen have the legal authority to detain a trespasser, or shoplifter, or any other criminal or not? It's a yes or no question. If the guy was not a LEO, but a regular homeowner who was trying to hold on to a kid who was trespassing and communicating threats, with the intent of calling the police, and then drew down when he was surrounded by the gang of kids and assaulted then GD would be calling him a hero. Now the ND is a training issue and needs to be addressed. I see a written reprimand in his file for that. And don't live in the shit hole you work in. The drive is worth it. I'm not sure if it's possible to not live in a gang infested area on a cops salary in SoCal though. I have a 45 minute commute in NC to avoid the city I work in outside of work. |
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Posted: 2/23/2017 11:52:03 AM EDT
[#50]
He was dragging that kid around like it was gonna be tonights dinner or something. Fucking stupid.
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