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Link Posted: 9/25/2016 3:23:42 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:No one from the family "unplugs" or turns off anything themselves.  That is done by the nurses.
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Not always true.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 3:31:51 PM EDT
[#2]
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Wow.  Thanks for sharing your story.
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Ten years ago my mother, age 76 at the time, had a heart attack and stroke and was, as per the doctors, brain dead.  She lingered on with wires
and tubes keeping her alive.  No brain activity.

After three weeks of no sign of change, on Friday night we had a meeting at the hospital with her three doctors, the head ICU nurse, another
nurse that attended her, a "patient advocate" from the hospital.  My father, my three siblings and I, and our spouses also attended.  I had kept
the originals of Mom and Dad's Living Wills in my safe at home, and the hospital already had a copy on file.  I made copies for everyone, passed
them around, and they all read along as I read the original so that we all knew we had accurate copies.  It was plainly stated that she did not
want to be kept alive on machines, and that if she ever got to that condition, to unplug her and let her go.  My parents were both medical
professionals and fully understood all that entailed.

It was decided, and all agreed, that we would unplug her the following Monday morning.  Dad came to me after saying he just couldn't do it, and
asked that I be there to do it.  I am the one in the family that was always assigned the dirty work, take out the trash, pick up the roadkill skunk in
front of the house, the stuff nobody else would do, so once again a dirty deed fell to me to take care of.

I walked into her room in ICU at the designated time, 08:00 Monday morning, and the room was empty.  Bed stripped, room cleaned up, floor looked
to be freshly waxed.  I stood there and thanked God for taking my mother during the night so I didn't have to carry the burden of killing my mother, or
rather, give the order to do so.  And nobody bothered to call me saying she was gone.  I had driven in from out of town.

Someone tapped me on the shoulder, I jumped 3' off the floor.  It was an ICU nurse.  "You mother came to last night and we moved her to a regular
room."  Yes, my mother woke up, had brain activity, and after removing the tube was breathing on her own, and could speak a little, though her throat
was sore.  Less than a week later she was home and soon was driving herself to physical therapy.

We've had her with us now for 10 years.  She's nearly 87 now, and has seen her grandkids graduate from school, seen some married, has held and
fawned over great-grandchildren, and every day has been a blessing for the family.

When the Terry Shiavo thing was going on I thought I knew what was what.  Let her husband go on and unplug her, poor thing.  She's already gone.  
But I now know that it is not my decision.  Faced with the same situation again I don't think I'd be able to unplug the person and let them go.  Not my
decision.  I can't do it.

And every time I think of how close I was to doing this a shiver runs down my spine.


Wow.  Thanks for sharing your story.


Mom is presently in an assisted living home.  Yesterday we took her out to dinner.  By we, I mean me, my wife, our older daughter, and one of my sisters.
We had a good time but for when Mom cried a few minutes over my brother, wishing he could have been there with us.  My brother died last December.  
We laughed about my cheapskate Dad (deceased) who had he been here would have asked everyone at the table if they wanted the lemon wedges in
their water, and would have squeezed them into his water glass and made lemonade instead of ordering a drink of some sort.

It was a Mexican joint.  Mom ate all my chips.  
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 3:35:32 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
This does not look brain dead to me.  Husband already had a new girl and wanted the insurance money.  Parents offered divorce and he said "NO"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbNLchN3JQE
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She was like that for 15 years.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 3:35:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Was her husband in the right (he wanted to unplug her)? Or her parents (they wanted to keep her on life support)?

I'll put up a general poll on end of life care/unplugging.
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Terry Schiavo had nothing to do with "unplugging"... they removed her feeding tube and essentially allowed her to starve to death.

Link Posted: 9/25/2016 3:38:27 PM EDT
[#5]
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Not even a good case...she was fucking brain dead
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No she wasn't.  She was in a vegetative state.  They attempted speech therapy, and some other things that did not work.

You don't do that w/ someone who is brain dead.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 3:39:42 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:

I like how he is giving all of the commands while the big shiny balloon that is moving where he's "telling her where to look" happens to be is out of frame.

This video shows she isn't brain dead as much as a video of sunflowers following the sun shows that they are conscious.
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This does not look brain dead to me.  Husband already had a new girl and wanted the insurance money.  Parents offered divorce and he said "NO"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbNLchN3JQE

I like how he is giving all of the commands while the big shiny balloon that is moving where he's "telling her where to look" happens to be is out of frame.

This video shows she isn't brain dead as much as a video of sunflowers following the sun shows that they are conscious.

I guess my definition of brain dead differs then. Wether shes following a balloon or whatever it seems that there has to be some activity there for that to happen hence she isnt tottaly brain dead.
I dont disagree with pulling the plug on someone who is brain dead, no activity,no response to any stimuli,organs wont function,etc.
But I still contend that she had major brain damage and that changes the argument to wether people agree with mercy killing or not. That is a much more uncomfortable argument for most people so they console themselves with the brain dead excuse instead.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 3:40:45 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:



Not always true.
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Quoted:No one from the family "unplugs" or turns off anything themselves.  That is done by the nurses.



Not always true.


Pardon me.  I don't have a lot of experience with this.  When my brother died I was there along with his wife, who gave the instructions, his daughter, and one of my
sisters.  They had us step out of the room, and a few minutes later asked to come back in.  They had removed the breathing tube, the IV's, and had left the monitor
connections that showed breathing rate, pulse, and heartbeat.  

It was my understanding this is what we would have done with my mother.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 3:44:59 PM EDT
[#8]
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I guess my definition of brain dead differs then. Wether shes following a balloon or whatever it seems that there has to be some activity there for that to happen hence she isnt tottaly brain dead.
I dont disagree with pulling the plug on someone who is brain dead, no activity,no response to any stimuli,organs wont function,etc.
But I still contend that she had major brain damage and that changes the argument to wether people agree with mercy killing or not. That is a much more uncomfortable argument for most people so they console themselves with the brain dead excuse instead.
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This does not look brain dead to me.  Husband already had a new girl and wanted the insurance money.  Parents offered divorce and he said "NO"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbNLchN3JQE

I like how he is giving all of the commands while the big shiny balloon that is moving where he's "telling her where to look" happens to be is out of frame.

This video shows she isn't brain dead as much as a video of sunflowers following the sun shows that they are conscious.

I guess my definition of brain dead differs then. Wether shes following a balloon or whatever it seems that there has to be some activity there for that to happen hence she isnt tottaly brain dead.
I dont disagree with pulling the plug on someone who is brain dead, no activity,no response to any stimuli,organs wont function,etc.
But I still contend that she had major brain damage and that changes the argument to wether people agree with mercy killing or not. That is a much more uncomfortable argument for most people so they console themselves with the brain dead excuse instead.

Major brain damage to the point that you will be permanently be a vegetable with no chance of ever regaining consciousness is perfectly fine with me as a line.  It was going to be impossible for her to have any quality of life, only quantity of it.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:01:31 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
This does not look brain dead to me. Husband already had a new girl and wanted the insurance money.  Parents offered divorce and he said "NO"
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Many people in this thread seem to be confused about the definition of brain death.

Brain death = loss of all brain function.  The brain ends at the spinal cord.  If there is any function above that point, then the patient is not brain dead.

As soon as you walk in the room and see that she is breathing on her own = not brain dead, as parts of the medulla and pons, which make up part of the brainstem, are still functioning.  

Why is this important?  If the patient is brain dead, doctors do not need permission to withdraw all medical care.  Without a functioning brain, the patient's heart will stop after a number of minutes without oxygen.

If the patient is alive (not brain dead), then the doctor is not allowed to withdraw care without the DPOA/next of kin/state-appointed guardian's approval.  In the OP's case, the husband had the right to withdraw care.  Had he divorced her, then that responsibility would have fallen to the parents.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:06:45 PM EDT
[#10]
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Unlike you, I wouldn't murder your grandmother.
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She wasn't on life support.  They didn't pull the plug and let her body die; they removed a feeding tube and starved her to death.


My grandmother had a DNR/no feeding tube - she starved to death in hospice. I would gladly pushed a syringe of whatever to end her suffering.

If your body can't perform a basic function necessary to sustain life then any external intervention to perform that function is by definition "life support".


And people like you should be charged and convicted of first degree murder.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Thank god there is 0% chance you will ever be involved in any of my families medical care.


Unlike you, I wouldn't murder your grandmother.


You would force her into hospice for ~2 weeks. Aren't you the compassionate one.....

I'm sure you feel compassion for people like my sister's BIL who had pancreatic cancer.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:08:56 PM EDT
[#11]

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No brain activity and the machine was keeping her alive for years, he made the right call.
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If by "brain activity" you mean consciousness, then you are correct.  

However, we know she had brainstem activity simply because she was breathing on her own.  I don't have time to get into the rest of the evidence of brain activity (EEG, spontaneous eye tracking, etc), but there was enough medical evidence by the time the husband wanted to withdraw care that she was most certainly not brain dead, but also that she was never going to regain any sort of meaningful brain function.  The information is then used by the husband to make a decision as to withdrawing care or not.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:11:09 PM EDT
[#12]
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I like how he is giving all of the commands while the big shiny balloon that is moving where he's "telling her where to look" happens to be is out of frame.

This video shows she isn't brain dead as much as a video of sunflowers following the sun shows that they are conscious.
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This does not look brain dead to me.  Husband already had a new girl and wanted the insurance money.  Parents offered divorce and he said "NO"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbNLchN3JQE

I like how he is giving all of the commands while the big shiny balloon that is moving where he's "telling her where to look" happens to be is out of frame.

This video shows she isn't brain dead as much as a video of sunflowers following the sun shows that they are conscious.


When smiling bandit and I are in agreement on a topic that should be a clue to anyone that has been here a while to take a step back and think hard about why they are taking a position opposite of the two of us.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:15:19 PM EDT
[#13]
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If by "brain activity" you mean consciousness, then you are correct.  

However, we know she had brainstem activity simply because she was breathing on her own.  I don't have time to get into the rest of the evidence of brain activity (EEG, spontaneous eye tracking, etc), but there was enough medical evidence by the time the husband wanted to withdraw care that she was most certainly not brain dead, but also that she was never going to regain any sort of meaningful brain function. The information is then used by the husband to make a decision as to withdrawing care or not.
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No brain activity and the machine was keeping her alive for years, he made the right call.


If by "brain activity" you mean consciousness, then you are correct.  

However, we know she had brainstem activity simply because she was breathing on her own.  I don't have time to get into the rest of the evidence of brain activity (EEG, spontaneous eye tracking, etc), but there was enough medical evidence by the time the husband wanted to withdraw care that she was most certainly not brain dead, but also that she was never going to regain any sort of meaningful brain function. The information is then used by the husband to make a decision as to withdrawing care or not.


Part in red is the key for the laymen IMO.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:21:23 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


Intentionally injection a patient with a fatal drug overdose = murder in 46+ states, including TX.
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She wasn't on life support.  They didn't pull the plug and let her body die; they removed a feeding tube and starved her to death.


My grandmother had a DNR/no feeding tube - she starved to death in hospice. I would gladly pushed a syringe of whatever to end her suffering.

If your body can't perform a basic function necessary to sustain life then any external intervention to perform that function is by definition "life support".


And people like you should be charged and convicted of first degree murder.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


oh bull shit...people should and in some states now do have the right to die.  And should, like a DNR, or advanced directives be allowed to choose a quick way to pass on.


Intentionally injection a patient with a fatal drug overdose = murder in 46+ states, including TX.


My grandmother lived in Freeport, Tx - Tx has it wrong in the situation.  My paternal grandfather died under hospice care in Lufkin TX back in the late '80s - I would have pushed a syringe for him as well.  
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:23:08 PM EDT
[#15]
I have written orders to keep me around for no more than a week, then pull the plug.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:38:58 PM EDT
[#16]
If the brain is dead and machines are the only thing keeping the body "alive", then pulling the plug is perfectly justified. The person is dead and keeping the body on life support won't change that.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:41:39 PM EDT
[#17]
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You would force her into hospice for ~2 weeks. Aren't you the compassionate one.....

I'm sure you feel compassion for people like my sister's BIL who had pancreatic cancer.
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I am, by my nature, very compassionate.  Sometimes too much.  I have empathy and sympathy for my patients, and they sense it.  I know because other
doctors in the area will choose to come and see me in the outpatient office setting because of my reputation.  Patients don't necessarily know who the good
doctors are, but other doctors do.  

The biggest impediment I'm finding in treating terminally ill patients properly is more and more restrictive laws on opiate prescriptions.  Through laws and regulations,
we are discouraged from prescribing them.  While medicinal marijuana is legal in NH, a patient cannot use both it and opiates together.  

Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:44:57 PM EDT
[#18]
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My grandmother lived in Freeport, Tx - Tx has it wrong in the situation.  My paternal grandfather died under hospice care in Lufkin TX back in the late '80s - I would have pushed a syringe for him as well.  
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No, they have it right.  It is morally wrong to kill someone unless they are a threat to you.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:46:14 PM EDT
[#19]
You should have the right to kill yourself if you want to.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:53:16 PM EDT
[#20]
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No, they have it right.  It is morally wrong to kill someone unless they are a threat to you.
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My grandmother lived in Freeport, Tx - Tx has it wrong in the situation.  My paternal grandfather died under hospice care in Lufkin TX back in the late '80s - I would have pushed a syringe for him as well.  


No, they have it right.  It is morally wrong to kill someone unless they are a threat to you.


Or they are terminal and the only thing modern medicine can do is offer pain control - which you admit is a problem.

IMO it is morally wrong to force someone to suffer like what I have witnessed. OR & CA have it right.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 4:55:53 PM EDT
[#21]
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That's a little harsh, don't you think?

Was he supposed to pine at her bedside for his remaining days until they both withered away?   I'm not prepared to judge him for that.
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Her husband was an abusive scumbag out for money


This. Also he already was shacked up with someone else and wanted her dead. There is more to the story


That's a little harsh, don't you think?

Was he supposed to pine at her bedside for his remaining days until they both withered away?   I'm not prepared to judge him for that.



I'm just saying that there is more to the story.  Money and another woman were part of the equation, like it or not.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 8:15:13 PM EDT
[#22]
I'm just saying that there is more to the story. Money and another woman were part of the equation, like it or not.
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You can't be serious.  

This woman lived as a vegetable for 15 years.  We aren't talking 15 months, or even 15 days....15 years.  No one I know would want to *ahem* live like that for any amount of time, much less a decade and a half.  Of course it came down to money, and of course another woman became involved.  Are you so selfish that you wouldn't want your spouse to move on with their life, or would you rather have her clinging desperately at your bedside every day for non existent hope??  You would want her to potentially struggle financially while she finds nursing homes that will care for you, or sit back and watch as you slowly decompose in the bed...with no chance to truly mourn?  

Her husband waited for 8 years until he first petitioned to remove feeding.  8 years.  8 years with his wife laying in a nursing home bed in a persistent vegetative state.  He satisfied his requirements as a husband, and no sane person would think otherwise.  The fact that her parents were able to supersede his rights as her next of kin was the true crime here, not them pulling the feeding tube.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 10:27:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 10:34:40 PM EDT
[#24]
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Ten years ago my mother, age 76 at the time, had a heart attack and stroke and was, as per the doctors, brain dead.  She lingered on with wires
and tubes keeping her alive.  No brain activity.

After three weeks of no sign of change, on Friday night we had a meeting at the hospital with her three doctors, the head ICU nurse, another
nurse that attended her, a "patient advocate" from the hospital.  My father, my three siblings and I, and our spouses also attended.  I had kept
the originals of Mom and Dad's Living Wills in my safe at home, and the hospital already had a copy on file.  I made copies for everyone, passed
them around, and they all read along as I read the original so that we all knew we had accurate copies.  It was plainly stated that she did not
want to be kept alive on machines, and that if she ever got to that condition, to unplug her and let her go.  My parents were both medical
professionals and fully understood all that entailed.

It was decided, and all agreed, that we would unplug her the following Monday morning.  Dad came to me after saying he just couldn't do it, and
asked that I be there to do it.  I am the one in the family that was always assigned the dirty work, take out the trash, pick up the roadkill skunk in
front of the house, the stuff nobody else would do, so once again a dirty deed fell to me to take care of.

I walked into her room in ICU at the designated time, 08:00 Monday morning, and the room was empty.  Bed stripped, room cleaned up, floor looked
to be freshly waxed.  I stood there and thanked God for taking my mother during the night so I didn't have to carry the burden of killing my mother, or
rather, give the order to do so.  And nobody bothered to call me saying she was gone.  I had driven in from out of town.

Someone tapped me on the shoulder, I jumped 3' off the floor.  It was an ICU nurse.  "You mother came to last night and we moved her to a regular
room."  Yes, my mother woke up, had brain activity, and after removing the tube was breathing on her own, and could speak a little, though her throat
was sore.  Less than a week later she was home and soon was driving herself to physical therapy.

We've had her with us now for 10 years.  She's nearly 87 now, and has seen her grandkids graduate from school, seen some married, has held and
fawned over great-grandchildren, and every day has been a blessing for the family.

When the Terry Shiavo thing was going on I thought I knew what was what.  Let her husband go on and unplug her, poor thing.  She's already gone.  
But I now know that it is not my decision.  Faced with the same situation again I don't think I'd be able to unplug the person and let them go.  Not my
decision.  I can't do it.

And every time I think of how close I was to doing this a shiver runs down my spine.
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That is an incredible and heartwarming story my man! Glad your mother is doing well.
Link Posted: 9/25/2016 11:10:33 PM EDT
[#25]

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She wasn't on life support.  They didn't pull the plug and let her body die; they removed a feeding tube and starved her to death.
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Doesn't that fit the definition of life support?



 
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 5:41:27 AM EDT
[#26]
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She wasn't on life support.  They didn't pull the plug and let her body die; they removed a feeding tube and starved her to death.
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Link Posted: 9/26/2016 5:46:32 AM EDT
[#27]
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She wasn't on life support.  They didn't pull the plug and let her body die; they removed a feeding tube and starved her to death.



If that isn't life support..then why did she die after the feeding tube was removed? Why couldn't she get food on her own?

hell, why couldn't she eat food if it was put in front of her.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 8:16:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Hands down one of the weirdest trade-offs of traditional political stances I've ever witnessed.



Typically state-driven acolytes siding with the sense of "let the personal wishes of a marriage be honored" -- let the husband pull the plug; state stay out of this.




Typically anti-state acolytes pleading with the state to intervene and override the privacy/sanctity of a marriage -- Governor Bush step in, usurp this man's marriage, and mandate her being kept on life-support.




It was as if, for a moment, traditionally left-wing people assumed a traditionally right-wing stance and traditionally right-wing people assumed a traditionally left-wing stance, respectively, in a way that struck me as being ironic.




Granted, the whole controversy was more complicated than this generalization (hell if I can remember every detail), but the net-effect of what the two opposing opinions ended up devolving into amounted to pretty much this.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 8:23:07 AM EDT
[#29]
It's not OK to pull the plug on people.



Vegetables are another story.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 8:36:15 AM EDT
[#30]
My wife and I have had the conversation. Pull the plug if no brain activity.

Have a living will. Problem solved.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 9:35:58 AM EDT
[#31]
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The parents had no standing.  It should have been a non-issue.
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This.

As the family medical expert, I've been asked to help make that decision twice now.  I've slept well afterward both times.  At some point you are simply prolonging the inevitable and making them suffer, if the situation is non-recoverable.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 9:58:54 AM EDT
[#32]

Link Posted: 9/26/2016 9:59:40 AM EDT
[#33]
Its a non issue here all family members have advanced directives in place.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 10:02:12 AM EDT
[#34]
Her parents were selfish and put their Daughter through untold misery b/c they were in denial.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 8:35:23 PM EDT
[#35]
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Its a non issue here all family members have advanced directives in place.
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They may be in place, but can be rescinded at any time...just hope your family honors your wishes.  
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 9:21:46 PM EDT
[#36]
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You can't be serious.  

This woman lived as a vegetable for 15 years.  We aren't talking 15 months, or even 15 days....15 years.  No one I know would want to *ahem* live like that for any amount of time, much less a decade and a half.  Of course it came down to money, and of course another woman became involved.  Are you so selfish that you wouldn't want your spouse to move on with their life, or would you rather have her clinging desperately at your bedside every day for non existent hope??  You would want her to potentially struggle financially while she finds nursing homes that will care for you, or sit back and watch as you slowly decompose in the bed...with no chance to truly mourn?  

Her husband waited for 8 years until he first petitioned to remove feeding.  8 years.  8 years with his wife laying in a nursing home bed in a persistent vegetative state.  He satisfied his requirements as a husband, and no sane person would think otherwise.  The fact that her parents were able to supersede his rights as her next of kin was the true crime here, not them pulling the feeding tube.
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I'm just saying that there is more to the story. Money and another woman were part of the equation, like it or not.


You can't be serious.  

This woman lived as a vegetable for 15 years.  We aren't talking 15 months, or even 15 days....15 years.  No one I know would want to *ahem* live like that for any amount of time, much less a decade and a half.  Of course it came down to money, and of course another woman became involved.  Are you so selfish that you wouldn't want your spouse to move on with their life, or would you rather have her clinging desperately at your bedside every day for non existent hope??  You would want her to potentially struggle financially while she finds nursing homes that will care for you, or sit back and watch as you slowly decompose in the bed...with no chance to truly mourn?  

Her husband waited for 8 years until he first petitioned to remove feeding.  8 years.  8 years with his wife laying in a nursing home bed in a persistent vegetative state.  He satisfied his requirements as a husband, and no sane person would think otherwise.  The fact that her parents were able to supersede his rights as her next of kin was the true crime here, not them pulling the feeding tube.

And here parents offered to take all of that off his shoulders and let him go free and clear if he'd grant a divorce--of course he'd miss out on the insurance money.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 9:22:21 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:


You can't be serious.  

This woman lived as a vegetable for 15 years.  We aren't talking 15 months, or even 15 days....15 years.  No one I know would want to *ahem* live like that for any amount of time, much less a decade and a half.  Of course it came down to money, and of course another woman became involved.  Are you so selfish that you wouldn't want your spouse to move on with their life, or would you rather have her clinging desperately at your bedside every day for non existent hope??  You would want her to potentially struggle financially while she finds nursing homes that will care for you, or sit back and watch as you slowly decompose in the bed...with no chance to truly mourn?  

Her husband waited for 8 years until he first petitioned to remove feeding.  8 years.  8 years with his wife laying in a nursing home bed in a persistent vegetative state.  He satisfied his requirements as a husband, and no sane person would think otherwise.  The fact that her parents were able to supersede his rights as her next of kin was the true crime here, not them pulling the feeding tube.
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Quoted:
I'm just saying that there is more to the story. Money and another woman were part of the equation, like it or not.


You can't be serious.  

This woman lived as a vegetable for 15 years.  We aren't talking 15 months, or even 15 days....15 years.  No one I know would want to *ahem* live like that for any amount of time, much less a decade and a half.  Of course it came down to money, and of course another woman became involved.  Are you so selfish that you wouldn't want your spouse to move on with their life, or would you rather have her clinging desperately at your bedside every day for non existent hope??  You would want her to potentially struggle financially while she finds nursing homes that will care for you, or sit back and watch as you slowly decompose in the bed...with no chance to truly mourn?  

Her husband waited for 8 years until he first petitioned to remove feeding.  8 years.  8 years with his wife laying in a nursing home bed in a persistent vegetative state.  He satisfied his requirements as a husband, and no sane person would think otherwise.  The fact that her parents were able to supersede his rights as her next of kin was the true crime here, not them pulling the feeding tube.

And her parents offered to take all of that off his shoulders and let him go free and clear if he'd grant a divorce--of course he'd miss out on the insurance money.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 9:24:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Absolutely not. Never.

It is murder, and murder is wrong. End of story.

This doesn't have to be complex.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 11:23:02 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:

And her parents offered to take all of that off his shoulders and let him go free and clear if he'd grant a divorce--of course he'd miss out on the insurance money.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm just saying that there is more to the story. Money and another woman were part of the equation, like it or not.


You can't be serious.  

This woman lived as a vegetable for 15 years.  We aren't talking 15 months, or even 15 days....15 years.  No one I know would want to *ahem* live like that for any amount of time, much less a decade and a half.  Of course it came down to money, and of course another woman became involved.  Are you so selfish that you wouldn't want your spouse to move on with their life, or would you rather have her clinging desperately at your bedside every day for non existent hope??  You would want her to potentially struggle financially while she finds nursing homes that will care for you, or sit back and watch as you slowly decompose in the bed...with no chance to truly mourn?  

Her husband waited for 8 years until he first petitioned to remove feeding.  8 years.  8 years with his wife laying in a nursing home bed in a persistent vegetative state.  He satisfied his requirements as a husband, and no sane person would think otherwise.  The fact that her parents were able to supersede his rights as her next of kin was the true crime here, not them pulling the feeding tube.

And her parents offered to take all of that off his shoulders and let him go free and clear if he'd grant a divorce--of course he'd miss out on the insurance money.


Serious question:  What did her parents think would happen to her in the future?
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 11:37:18 PM EDT
[#40]
Need option for lethal injection, her death was pretty shitty.

Link Posted: 9/26/2016 11:44:16 PM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:
Absolutely not. Never.

It is murder, and murder is wrong. End of story.

This doesn't have to be complex.
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I'm pretty sure it's homicide by definition.  It could be murder or it could be the most compassionate act ever.

John Ashcroft and his cronies can stick it up their asses - .gov should not be involved medical decisions made by competent adults prior to becoming incapacitated.
Link Posted: 9/26/2016 11:45:21 PM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:
Who would want to live in that condition? Pulling the plug was the right call.  
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That's what it boils down to for me. Quality of life.
Link Posted: 9/27/2016 12:22:57 AM EDT
[#43]
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If by "brain activity" you mean consciousness, then you are correct.  

However, we know she had brainstem activity simply because she was breathing on her own.  I don't have time to get into the rest of the evidence of brain activity (EEG, spontaneous eye tracking, etc), but there was enough medical evidence by the time the husband wanted to withdraw care that she was most certainly not brain dead, but also that she was never going to regain any sort of meaningful brain function.  The information is then used by the husband to make a decision as to withdrawing care or not.
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Quoted:
No brain activity and the machine was keeping her alive for years, he made the right call.


If by "brain activity" you mean consciousness, then you are correct.  

However, we know she had brainstem activity simply because she was breathing on her own.  I don't have time to get into the rest of the evidence of brain activity (EEG, spontaneous eye tracking, etc), but there was enough medical evidence by the time the husband wanted to withdraw care that she was most certainly not brain dead, but also that she was never going to regain any sort of meaningful brain function.  The information is then used by the husband to make a decision as to withdrawing care or not.

It this case, you are describing a distinction without a difference.  The person Terri Schiavo, was long dead and it was past time to bury her corpse.
Link Posted: 9/27/2016 7:57:22 AM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 9/27/2016 8:06:37 AM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:
Her husband was an abusive scumbag out for money
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Regardless, people do check out of relationships if the other is not there.
And Terri was gone. She was already called home but modern medicine was stuffing cotton in her ears so she could hear the trumpet.
Link Posted: 9/27/2016 8:10:28 AM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:
Absolutely not. Never.

It is murder, and murder is wrong. End of story.

This doesn't have to be complex.
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We accept passive euthanasia...but not assisted euthanasia.

When a soldier puts the anchor shot in the enemy rather than providing assistance...did he just murder someone?

When someone decides how they want to die, who are you to tell them they can't do it a certain way they see fit?

The right to life inherently means the right to death.  You can't have life without death.
Link Posted: 9/27/2016 8:13:11 AM EDT
[#47]

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Quoted:
You know what happens with those patients.  You've seen it, just like I have.  Decubiti, serial pneumonias/UTIs, contractures, sepsis, endless wound-care...  could you just walk away from your wife and leave her like that?



I couldn't.



If he knew her parents wouldn't honor her wishes, maybe he couldn't walk away.  Could you walk away, and leave your wife rotting away in an ECF forever, knowing that's something she wouldn't have wanted?
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Quoted:



And her parents offered to take all of that off his shoulders and let him go free and clear if he'd grant a divorce--of course he'd miss out on the insurance money.




You know what happens with those patients.  You've seen it, just like I have.  Decubiti, serial pneumonias/UTIs, contractures, sepsis, endless wound-care...  could you just walk away from your wife and leave her like that?



I couldn't.



If he knew her parents wouldn't honor her wishes, maybe he couldn't walk away.  Could you walk away, and leave your wife rotting away in an ECF forever, knowing that's something she wouldn't have wanted?




 
He walked away from his wife when he started a 2nd family with another woman....



Link Posted: 9/27/2016 8:22:04 AM EDT
[#48]
00
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Quoted:

And her parents offered to take all of that off his shoulders and let him go free and clear if he'd grant a divorce--of course he'd miss out on the insurance money.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm just saying that there is more to the story. Money and another woman were part of the equation, like it or not.


You can't be serious.  

This woman lived as a vegetable for 15 years.  We aren't talking 15 months, or even 15 days....15 years.  No one I know would want to *ahem* live like that for any amount of time, much less a decade and a half.  Of course it came down to money, and of course another woman became involved.  Are you so selfish that you wouldn't want your spouse to move on with their life, or would you rather have her clinging desperately at your bedside every day for non existent hope??  You would want her to potentially struggle financially while she finds nursing homes that will care for you, or sit back and watch as you slowly decompose in the bed...with no chance to truly mourn?  

Her husband waited for 8 years until he first petitioned to remove feeding.  8 years.  8 years with his wife laying in a nursing home bed in a persistent vegetative state.  He satisfied his requirements as a husband, and no sane person would think otherwise.  The fact that her parents were able to supersede his rights as her next of kin was the true crime here, not them pulling the feeding tube.

And her parents offered to take all of that off his shoulders and let him go free and clear if he'd grant a divorce--of course he'd miss out on the insurance money.


IIRC he was in debt due to the cost of her medical care and needed the money.  More to the story as you say.   After years of her being a vegetable, how could you expect him not to get into another relationship?

Her parents were the ones who were deluded based on her retaining some primitive reflexes.   You've seen the brain scans - there was zero quality of life and zero chance of recovery.   The husband might not be a "sympathetic character" but that doesn't mean he was wrong.
Link Posted: 9/27/2016 8:25:32 AM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 9/27/2016 8:29:59 AM EDT
[#50]
Pull it.

Interestingly enough, I am the one who has to make the call for my EX Brother and Sister in law.  On many levels, I hope it never comes to that.  Forget the fact that they really and truly are my family and I love them and my niece and nephew to death, I cannot imagine the shitstorm that would come down from my former wife and her parents.
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