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Posted: 3/31/2016 11:25:46 PM EDT
[#1]
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So, if they die before they can do any of those things, they get sent to Hell? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Nobody is getting off easy on this one. You gotta own it. Oh the irony. It's wildly irresponsible adults who bare ALL of the moral responsibility. The sad truth is that almost all abortions are stupid fucking whores killing a child because they WANT to. Not because they need to or they were raped. I'd rather see such people shot in the head and the baby saved. The world would be a better place. That said, government is incapable of producing moral outcomes, so evil shit like killing babies well continue. I don't see why so many folks have a problem with abortion. The mother avoids the burden of a child she doesn't want. The father doesn't have to pay child support. The abortion provider gets income. And the baby gets to bypass all of the pain and suffering in life, and go directly to Heaven to spend eternity in the loving arms of God. I'd call that a win-win-win-win. In most religions, Christianity included, babies do not get a pass to heaven. They are unbaptized, they have not been saved, they have not consciously taken Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, therefore, they don't get a pass. So, if they die before they can do any of those things, they get sent to Hell? I believe we have a soul from the moment of conception, and baptism is just a human invention, like santa claus and the tooth fairy. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 11:33:56 PM EDT
[#2]
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So, if they die before they can do any of those things, they get sent to Hell? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Nobody is getting off easy on this one. You gotta own it. Oh the irony. It's wildly irresponsible adults who bare ALL of the moral responsibility. The sad truth is that almost all abortions are stupid fucking whores killing a child because they WANT to. Not because they need to or they were raped. I'd rather see such people shot in the head and the baby saved. The world would be a better place. That said, government is incapable of producing moral outcomes, so evil shit like killing babies well continue. I don't see why so many folks have a problem with abortion. The mother avoids the burden of a child she doesn't want. The father doesn't have to pay child support. The abortion provider gets income. And the baby gets to bypass all of the pain and suffering in life, and go directly to Heaven to spend eternity in the loving arms of God. I'd call that a win-win-win-win. In most religions, Christianity included, babies do not get a pass to heaven. They are unbaptized, they have not been saved, they have not consciously taken Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, therefore, they don't get a pass. So, if they die before they can do any of those things, they get sent to Hell? yep, or purgatory. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 11:39:20 PM EDT
[#3]
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I'd honestly like to know. Let's suppose that a woman is 6 weeks pregnant (I want to keep this easy). She wasn't raped. The pregnancy wasn't the result of incest. There is no known harm to her if she carries it to term. She had consensual sex, it resulted in the 6 week old fetus we're all talking about, and she flat out decided she didn't want to be a mother. No extenuating circumstances that any of us can think of. Simple as that. And in so doing, she illegally aborts her child for birth control purposes. Let's say this happens - it's straight up birth control, and nothing more. What should her punishment be? I have not read any of this thread yet You keep pushing this What do you think? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 11:47:13 PM EDT
[#4]
15 to Life
 With the various mechanical or chemical or hormonal BC available, there should be no excuse for unwanted/"unplanned" parenthood. If you have a habit of getting drunk and waking up with strange males in your bed or, get it on in the back alley, with no precautions, then you should at least be smart enough to have the BC shot or IUD installed, to not cramp your sport fornication. Should be a better way to allow the unplanned parenthood babies to be adopted, the OB-GYN expenses along the way covered by the adopting person(s) In the end the nation would be better, people would be more responsible, make better choices, be more successful, Society is F-ed up, everybody wants to play the victim card, nobody wants to be held to the consequences of their bad decisions. And as long as gov't subsidizes failure, reenforces the negative behavior, it continues to grow...subsidize failure, penalize success. Limit FSA to $X per month, not $Y per month per child, and they should stop having kids they cannot support themselves, but instead, we have the unending, familial, lifetime welfarists. 50 years of the Dems' "Great Society" isn't going to change overnight. And it won't ever change as long as these coddled and paid for votes with other taxpayers' money, continue to be used as a wedge, a political weapon. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 11:49:34 PM EDT
[#5]
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Nope. Morality IS defined by society, or more accurately within a multitude of cultures and subcultures with various overlaps. Popular is not the right word for it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You are mistaken. It IS about morality. Being immoral is VERY unpopular, as is representing the people in a way that does not reflect the culture and morals of the people. Isn't that kind of circular reasoning? If morality is determined by the behavioral preferences of the majority, then by definition morality will be what is popular. No. "Morality" is not "by definition," that which is popular. But within any culture, there will be a shared set of morals (at different levels and within different subcultures). Just because a subculture often chooses wrong over right, it does not mean that they don't recognize that what they are doing is wrong. Nor does it make wrong, right and right, wrong. Sometimes, folks just don't give a fuck. Or they're pissed off at daddy. We all know people who are complete, and unabashed assholes. It doesn't mean that in THEIR little culture, they don't consider themselves to be assholes. They know they're an asshole, but they just don't give a fuck. Are you positing that morality is absolute, rather than defined by society? Not really interested in pushing this line of conversation for 4 pages, just curious. Nope. Morality IS defined by society, or more accurately within a multitude of cultures and subcultures with various overlaps. Popular is not the right word for it. Popular is exactly the word you're looking for. What is good or bad is just relative to whatever society/historical period you're in defines it as. Slavery was good before, but not now. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 11:56:01 PM EDT
[#6]
yep, or purgatory.
Just like what is possible among the initiated? Are you pointing down the "pre-destination" road? That is quite a broad brush... What I understand is they lack some graces, but that does not mean they are fucked. Christ came to redeem all, including those who got fucked in life. < Cat O lick. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 11:58:48 PM EDT
[#7]
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yep, or purgatory. Just like what is possible among the initiated? Are you pointing down the "pre-destination" road? That is quite a broad brush... What I understand is they lack some graces, but that does not mean they are fucked. Christ came to redeem all, including those who got fucked in life. < Cat O lick. there are many sects of the christian Faith, some of them do believe children that die before being sanctified go to purgatory or hell. I dunno, I don't really buy into heaven or hell. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:00:36 AM EDT
[#8]
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Popular is exactly the word you're looking for. What is good or bad is just relative to whatever society/historical period you're in defines it as. Slavery was good before, but not now. Slavery was good because it was necessary. It was necessary because societies were built on slavery, and to free slaves prior to the end of its necessity would mean upsetting the established order and creating instability. In order to achieve a point when slavery became obsolete, slavery was and still is a necessary evil. Much of what we consume is made by slaves, and many of us were slaves. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:07:51 AM EDT
[#9]
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Slavery was good because it was necessary. It was necessary because societies were built on it, and to free slaves prior to the end of its necessity would mean upsetting the established order and create instability. In order to achieve a point when slavery became obsolete, slavery was and still is a necessary evil. Much of what we consume is made by slaves, and many of us were slaves. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Popular is exactly the word you're looking for. What is good or bad is just relative to whatever society/historical period you're in defines it as. Slavery was good before, but not now. Slavery was good because it was necessary. It was necessary because societies were built on it, and to free slaves prior to the end of its necessity would mean upsetting the established order and create instability. In order to achieve a point when slavery became obsolete, slavery was and still is a necessary evil. Much of what we consume is made by slaves, and many of us were slaves. Necessity doesn't make something good. The word you're looking for is: excusable (which I would also find issues with; re: considering slavery excusable). Slavery certainly wasn't good. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:11:29 AM EDT
[#10]
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Necessity doesn't make something good. The word you're looking for is: excusable (which I would also find issues with; re: considering slavery excusable). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Popular is exactly the word you're looking for. What is good or bad is just relative to whatever society/historical period you're in defines it as. Slavery was good before, but not now. Slavery was good because it was necessary. It was necessary because societies were built on it, and to free slaves prior to the end of its necessity would mean upsetting the established order and create instability. In order to achieve a point when slavery became obsolete, slavery was and still is a necessary evil. Much of what we consume is made by slaves, and many of us were slaves. Necessity doesn't make something good. The word you're looking for is: excusable (which I would also find issues with; re: considering slavery excusable). Necessities are always good. Unless they aren't necessities. I'd argue that the slaves we make use of in china and other places aren't necessities at all, but then at some point the tech revolution taking place in china and those other states is going to lead to societal revolutions that will probably end in societal freedoms possibly superior to our own. our system of economic consumerism has literally created from nothing the great industrial revolutions all over the world. In doing so we have given our intellectual wealth to people who will out number us 10 to 1 and they all lack the restraints on technological progress that we have. they will be unbound by intellectual property protections that hamper innovation, and if they should decide to move away from mercantile economies that service our appetites and move towards military expansionism, we will be at their mercy. the only chips we have to play is to starve them, or commit suicide in a nuclear exchange. and starving them may well lead to nuclear exchange soo.... I am not sure it was necessary to make use of them. but if they survive and create a free society, it will be good for them, even should they destroy, or out compete us. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:22:21 AM EDT
[#11]
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Necessities are always good. Unless they aren't necessities. No. The morality of something isn't contingent on it being "necessary". That's pragmatism, not ethics. How one would even deem something "necessary" is troubling as well, seeing as we only know the outcome of one history. Even if deemed "necessary", it still doesn't make it "good". |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:30:04 AM EDT
[#12]
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No. The morality of something isn't contingent on it being "necessary". That's pragmatism, not ethics. How one would even deem something "necessary" is troubling as well, seeing as we only know the outcome of one history. Even if deemed "necessary", it still doesn't make it "good". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Necessities are always good. Unless they aren't necessities. No. The morality of something isn't contingent on it being "necessary". That's pragmatism, not ethics. How one would even deem something "necessary" is troubling as well, seeing as we only know the outcome of one history. Even if deemed "necessary", it still doesn't make it "good". Yes, i agree with you but, we are the outcome of that one history, and all the other possibilities are hypothetical. I disagree with you about the distinction between necessary and good. It is good to live in the first world in the 2016. It is good to progress to a point where it is no longer necessary to have slaves. And to do that slaves were necessary and thus their sacrifice was good. their bondage was bad, but their collective efforts are good. I am glad that they choose to live as slaves, and contributed to a series of cultures so that there would one day come a level of progress so that I might not have to be a slave myself. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:40:58 AM EDT
[#13]
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Yes, i agree with you but, we are the outcome of that one history, and all the other possibilities are hypothetical. I disagree with you about the distinction between necessary and good. It is good to live in the first world in the 2016. It is good to progress to a point where it is no longer necessary to have slaves. And to do that slaves were necessary and thus their sacrifice was good. their bondage was bad, but their collective efforts are good. I am glad that they choose to live as slaves, and contributed to a series of cultures so that there would one day come a level of progress so that I might not have to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Necessities are always good. Unless they aren't necessities. No. The morality of something isn't contingent on it being "necessary". That's pragmatism, not ethics. How one would even deem something "necessary" is troubling as well, seeing as we only know the outcome of one history. Even if deemed "necessary", it still doesn't make it "good". Yes, i agree with you but, we are the outcome of that one history, and all the other possibilities are hypothetical. I disagree with you about the distinction between necessary and good. It is good to live in the first world in the 2016. It is good to progress to a point where it is no longer necessary to have slaves. And to do that slaves were necessary and thus their sacrifice was good. their bondage was bad, but their collective efforts are good. I am glad that they choose to live as slaves, and contributed to a series of cultures so that there would one day come a level of progress so that I might not have to. wut? I hope to God you're still equating Chinese workers with actual slaves. You don't think there's a theoretical possibility of a better world without slavery? |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:42:32 AM EDT
[#14]
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I'd honestly like to know. Let's suppose that a woman is 6 weeks pregnant (I want to keep this easy). She wasn't raped. The pregnancy wasn't the result of incest. There is no known harm to her if she carries it to term. She had consensual sex, it resulted in the 6 week old fetus we're all talking about, and she flat out decided she didn't want to be a mother. No extenuating circumstances that any of us can think of. Simple as that. And in so doing, she illegally aborts her child for birth control purposes. Let's say this happens - it's straight up birth control, and nothing more. What should her punishment be? ask the man whose child she killed. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:54:34 AM EDT
[#15]
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wut? I hope to God you're still equating Chinese workers with actual slaves. You don't think there's a theoretical possibility of a better world without slavery? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Necessities are always good. Unless they aren't necessities. No. The morality of something isn't contingent on it being "necessary". That's pragmatism, not ethics. How one would even deem something "necessary" is troubling as well, seeing as we only know the outcome of one history. Even if deemed "necessary", it still doesn't make it "good". Yes, i agree with you but, we are the outcome of that one history, and all the other possibilities are hypothetical. I disagree with you about the distinction between necessary and good. It is good to live in the first world in the 2016. It is good to progress to a point where it is no longer necessary to have slaves. And to do that slaves were necessary and thus their sacrifice was good. their bondage was bad, but their collective efforts are good. I am glad that they choose to live as slaves, and contributed to a series of cultures so that there would one day come a level of progress so that I might not have to. wut? I hope to God you're still equating Chinese workers with actual slaves. You don't think there's a theoretical possibility of a better world without slavery? I sure am, they are state owned assets. As are all people in communist countries. Many a slave in the muslim world too. The folks in india are known for their caste society, where the poor are little more than slaves. they live better then most slaves in the 19th century because technology does progress (literally because we are free enough to invent it, and gave it to them.) but the poorest American lives better then the royalty of any time I can think of, and they will not be shot in the head and fed to pigs for saying what is on their minds. There are all kinds of theoretical possible better worlds, I dream of them all the time, wouldn't it be nice if exposed tits weren't taboo in public in the first world? Ahhh, we can dream cant we? but there is only one reality, the one we live in. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:56:01 AM EDT
[#16]
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ask the man whose child she killed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd honestly like to know. Let's suppose that a woman is 6 weeks pregnant (I want to keep this easy). She wasn't raped. The pregnancy wasn't the result of incest. There is no known harm to her if she carries it to term. She had consensual sex, it resulted in the 6 week old fetus we're all talking about, and she flat out decided she didn't want to be a mother. No extenuating circumstances that any of us can think of. Simple as that. And in so doing, she illegally aborts her child for birth control purposes. Let's say this happens - it's straight up birth control, and nothing more. What should her punishment be? ask the man whose child she killed. Boom There you go. When my wife lost a twin (during what was the 3rd or 4th month) I wept. The child never fully developed but it was no less my child. People do mental gymnastics to say a baby isn't a person. They use words like "fetus" or some other word that makes it easier to accept their murder. It's killing a child. Just admit you support killing children. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 1:20:41 AM EDT
[#17]
What will happen is there will be a LOT of unwanted babies. The same people who voted to overturn Roe vs. Wade will find their teen aged daughters knocked up, and they will be FORCED to have the baby. If they are in college, they will have to drop out. If they have a job, they will lose a LOT of time from work. If they HAD their own apartment, they will likely lose it, and have to move back home.
Very few single mother cn earn enough money to pay for day care. Forget about the baby daddy paying any child support. He's either left the state, doesn't have a job, or is working for minimum wage, part time, and McDonalds. Your daughter's life is completely destroyed. But yeah: make abortion legal. We need MILLIONS of unwanted children, born into poverty. They will help to keep the for profit prisons(AKA: forced slave labor camps) full. What a fucking SMART IDEA.  |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 1:23:41 AM EDT
[#18]
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Boom There you go. When my wife lost a twin (during what was the 3rd or 4th month) I wept. The child never fully developed but it was no less my child. People do mental gymnastics to say a baby isn't a person. They use words like "fetus" or some other word that makes it easier to accept their murder. It's killing a child. Just admit you support killing children. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd honestly like to know. Let's suppose that a woman is 6 weeks pregnant (I want to keep this easy). She wasn't raped. The pregnancy wasn't the result of incest. There is no known harm to her if she carries it to term. She had consensual sex, it resulted in the 6 week old fetus we're all talking about, and she flat out decided she didn't want to be a mother. No extenuating circumstances that any of us can think of. Simple as that. And in so doing, she illegally aborts her child for birth control purposes. Let's say this happens - it's straight up birth control, and nothing more. What should her punishment be? ask the man whose child she killed. Boom There you go. When my wife lost a twin (during what was the 3rd or 4th month) I wept. The child never fully developed but it was no less my child. People do mental gymnastics to say a baby isn't a person. They use words like "fetus" or some other word that makes it easier to accept their murder. It's killing a child. Just admit you support killing children. when i found out we were expecting just a few weeks after we conceived, i became a father. whatever happened to that child, whether he survived another minute or lived to be 100... he was my child. at ten weeks we watched him dance and kick his legs on the ultrasound. it was during that visit that i changed my position from pro choice to pro life. i had always thought of a fetus as the floating still mass from the movie 2001. my son on the ultrasound was kicking and moving a lot. i had always thought that abortion was about a woman choosing what to do with her own body. i realized that my child was not her body. he had his own body. several months into the pregnancy, i got a panicked call from her that blood was pouring from her vagina and she was heading to the doctor's office. i left work and drove directly there. on that ride i was certain that i had lost my child. the grief and fear i felt was immense. i was in shock. but i didn't know what was happening and i knew i needed to be strong for her so i kept my focus. she hadn't miscarried. she had placenta previa and the chances of survival were pretty good. our son is now nine years old and watching youtube in the other room. we lectured him today about stealing. this story has so far a happy ending. having gone through that and knowing what i know now... i know what it means to be a father... i know what it means to fear for the worst. i know what it means to look at the ultrasound of your ten week old child in his mother's belly. if i had another child, six weeks along in development, with a beating heart and my blood running through his veins... he would be my child. he would have my eternal love and commitment. i would lay down my life to save his. if his mother, or any other person, intentionally destroyed him... i would cave their fucking skull in. that would be their punishment. in my view. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 2:05:52 AM EDT
[#19]
Why does a hypothetical question demand a non-hypothetical answer?
*Hypothetically, if you could poop gold bullion, what percentage of your excrement should be taxed? This question has the same relevance to the current Presidential election. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 2:27:06 AM EDT
[#20]
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there are many sects of the christian Faith, some of them do believe children that die before being sanctified go to purgatory or hell. I dunno, I don't really buy into heaven or hell. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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yep, or purgatory. Just like what is possible among the initiated? Are you pointing down the "pre-destination" road? That is quite a broad brush... What I understand is they lack some graces, but that does not mean they are fucked. Christ came to redeem all, including those who got fucked in life. < Cat O lick. there are many sects of the christian Faith, some of them do believe children that die before being sanctified go to purgatory or hell. I dunno, I don't really buy into heaven or hell. Gotcha, but that is pre-destination. By no reasoning from any translation of the bible can you come up with the knowledge that some body is for sure going to hell. Period. From reading you can observe that the afterlife is bleak for the truly terrible, but scripture warns against judging the soul of another. Any who question this plain speak, read it for yourself in as many translations as you can get your hands on. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 2:29:51 AM EDT
[#21]
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Gotcha, but that is pre-destination. By no reasoning from any translation of the bible can you come up with the knowledge that some body is for sure going to hell. Period. From reading you can observe that the afterlife is bleak for the truly terrible, but scripture warns against judging the soul of another. Any who question this plain speak, read it for yourself in as many translations as you can get your hands on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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yep, or purgatory. Just like what is possible among the initiated? Are you pointing down the "pre-destination" road? That is quite a broad brush... What I understand is they lack some graces, but that does not mean they are fucked. Christ came to redeem all, including those who got fucked in life. < Cat O lick. there are many sects of the christian Faith, some of them do believe children that die before being sanctified go to purgatory or hell. I dunno, I don't really buy into heaven or hell. Gotcha, but that is pre-destination. By no reasoning from any translation of the bible can you come up with the knowledge that some body is for sure going to hell. Period. From reading you can observe that the afterlife is bleak for the truly terrible, but scripture warns against judging the soul of another. Any who question this plain speak, read it for yourself in as many translations as you can get your hands on. That is one of the reasons I don't believe in heaven or hell. Seems like a fairly new concept. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 2:37:19 AM EDT
[#22]
This guy was charged with second degree murder for killing a fetus. First degree for killing the mother.
On November 12 the reconstituted jury convicted Peterson of first-degree murder with special circumstances for killing Laci and second-degree murder for killing the fetus she carried. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 2:48:40 AM EDT
[#23]
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In most religions, Christianity included, babies do not get a pass to heaven. They are unbaptized, they have not been saved, they have not consciously taken Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, therefore, they don't get a pass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Nobody is getting off easy on this one. You gotta own it. Oh the irony. It's wildly irresponsible adults who bare ALL of the moral responsibility. The sad truth is that almost all abortions are stupid fucking whores killing a child because they WANT to. Not because they need to or they were raped. I'd rather see such people shot in the head and the baby saved. The world would be a better place. That said, government is incapable of producing moral outcomes, so evil shit like killing babies well continue. I don't see why so many folks have a problem with abortion. The mother avoids the burden of a child she doesn't want. The father doesn't have to pay child support. The abortion provider gets income. And the baby gets to bypass all of the pain and suffering in life, and go directly to Heaven to spend eternity in the loving arms of God. I'd call that a win-win-win-win. In most religions, Christianity included, babies do not get a pass to heaven. They are unbaptized, they have not been saved, they have not consciously taken Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, therefore, they don't get a pass. You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 3:20:56 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Nobody is getting off easy on this one. You gotta own it. Oh the irony. It's wildly irresponsible adults who bare ALL of the moral responsibility. The sad truth is that almost all abortions are stupid fucking whores killing a child because they WANT to. Not because they need to or they were raped. I'd rather see such people shot in the head and the baby saved. The world would be a better place. That said, government is incapable of producing moral outcomes, so evil shit like killing babies well continue. I don't see why so many folks have a problem with abortion. The mother avoids the burden of a child she doesn't want. The father doesn't have to pay child support. The abortion provider gets income. And the baby gets to bypass all of the pain and suffering in life, and go directly to Heaven to spend eternity in the loving arms of God. I'd call that a win-win-win-win. In most religions, Christianity included, babies do not get a pass to heaven. They are unbaptized, they have not been saved, they have not consciously taken Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, therefore, they don't get a pass. You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. Actually, it sounds to be more of a predestination thing a-la Calvinism. i.e. Presbyterianism. A baby has no guarantee of being saved, only the grace of God. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 3:30:41 AM EDT
[#25]
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I sure am, they are state owned assets. As are all people in communist countries. Many a slave in the muslim world too. The folks in india are known for their caste society, where the poor are little more than slaves. they live better then most slaves in the 19th century because technology does progress (literally because we are free enough to invent it, and gave it to them.) but the poorest American lives better then the royalty of any time I can think of, and they will not be shot in the head and fed to pigs for saying what is on their minds. There are all kinds of theoretical possible better worlds, I dream of them all the time, wouldn't it be nice if exposed tits weren't taboo in public in the first world? Ahhh, we can dream cant we? but there is only one reality, the one we live in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Necessities are always good. Unless they aren't necessities. No. The morality of something isn't contingent on it being "necessary". That's pragmatism, not ethics. How one would even deem something "necessary" is troubling as well, seeing as we only know the outcome of one history. Even if deemed "necessary", it still doesn't make it "good". Yes, i agree with you but, we are the outcome of that one history, and all the other possibilities are hypothetical. I disagree with you about the distinction between necessary and good. It is good to live in the first world in the 2016. It is good to progress to a point where it is no longer necessary to have slaves. And to do that slaves were necessary and thus their sacrifice was good. their bondage was bad, but their collective efforts are good. I am glad that they choose to live as slaves, and contributed to a series of cultures so that there would one day come a level of progress so that I might not have to. wut? I hope to God you're still equating Chinese workers with actual slaves. You don't think there's a theoretical possibility of a better world without slavery? I sure am, they are state owned assets. As are all people in communist countries. Many a slave in the muslim world too. The folks in india are known for their caste society, where the poor are little more than slaves. they live better then most slaves in the 19th century because technology does progress (literally because we are free enough to invent it, and gave it to them.) but the poorest American lives better then the royalty of any time I can think of, and they will not be shot in the head and fed to pigs for saying what is on their minds. There are all kinds of theoretical possible better worlds, I dream of them all the time, wouldn't it be nice if exposed tits weren't taboo in public in the first world? Ahhh, we can dream cant we? but there is only one reality, the one we live in. China's economy is capitalist. You're seeing the Industrial Revolution in China right now. It's impossible to deem something "necessary" if you have only one data point. How do you know it was necessary? ... and again 'Just because something is "necessary" doesn't mean it's morally good'. That's pragmatism, not ethics or morality. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 3:44:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. Quote HistoryQuoted: You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. Catholicism isn't Christianity? What? |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 4:01:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
China's economy is capitalist. You're seeing the Industrial Revolution in China right now. It's impossible to deem something "necessary" if you have only one data point. How do you know it was necessary? ... and again 'Just because something is "necessary" doesn't mean it's morally good'. That's pragmatism, not ethics or morality. I do not think theoretical supposition and reality are equally valid. all of those other ways that you think the human race could have ascended to where we are is fantasy. The way we did it is the reality. And I choose not to deny it as being a worthy sacrifice, and I am thankful for the sacrifices that got us here. Millions today exist that otherwise wouldn't, me being one of them, and they are free, and that is good. The chinese economy is state owned, like its people. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 4:41:57 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Two in many states. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If a person murders a woman who is six weeks pregnant does he get charged with one murder or two? Two in many states. That doesn't mean anything, really. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 5:26:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That doesn't mean anything, really. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If a person murders a woman who is six weeks pregnant does he get charged with one murder or two? Two in many states. That doesn't mean anything, really. It does, actually. It means the state is acknowledging that it is allowing murder, as long as the mother wants the murder to occur. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 7:45:52 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
I'd honestly like to know. Let's suppose that a woman is 6 weeks pregnant (I want to keep this easy). She wasn't raped. The pregnancy wasn't the result of incest. There is no known harm to her if she carries it to term. She had consensual sex, it resulted in the 6 week old fetus we're all talking about, and she flat out decided she didn't want to be a mother. No extenuating circumstances that any of us can think of. Simple as that. And in so doing, she illegally aborts her child for birth control purposes. Let's say this happens - it's straight up birth control, and nothing more. What should her punishment be? I'm pro-abortion... but my past is as a highly religious evangelical. My past self would say that it's first degree murder. It's a planned, premeditated killing of another human being. Suitable penalties are whatever legal penalties exist now for first degree murder. Blame the doctor? What, if a mafia don orders somebody killed, do we only punish the hitman? The doctor didn't knock her out to abort the baby against her will, she explicitly chose it. The doctor's an accessory to the act. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 8:14:45 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. Morality IS defined by society, or more accurately within a multitude of cultures and subcultures with various overlaps. Popular is not the right word for it. I wrote earlier that "you're >< (this close) to getting it". Now I suspect you do get it. I also suspect you get why Trump is doing so well: that he's free from GoP control and therefore free to be amoral which means he's free to go where polling data says to go. Yes I'm thinking you do get it--definitely the red part--but you're toeing some sort of line; a line that you seem to think is undetectable by others. You aren't the only one who gives me this feeling--some of the other 'respected-as-conservative members' whose intelligence I value give me the same feeling. I don't dislike you or any other; it's just odd to me that y'all's rhetoric reads one way while y'all's detail suggests what I suspect: that y'all know better. Y'all's posts strike me as coming from people who's job it is to keep the dumb ones, and the ones who can't handle or understand the truth, on a collinear line that's meant to be visible. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 8:18:13 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wrote earlier that "you're >< (this close) to getting it". Now I suspect you do get it. I also suspect you get why Trump is doing so well: that he's free from GoP control and therefore free to be amoral which means he's free to go where polling data says to go. Yes I'm thinking you do get it--definitely the red part--but you're toeing some sort of line; a line that you seem to think is undetectable by others. You aren't the only one who gives me this feeling--some of the other 'respected-as-conservative members' whose intelligence I value give me the same feeling. I don't dislike you or any other; it's just odd to me that y'all's rhetoric reads one way while y'all's detail suggests what I suspect: that y'all know better. Y'all's posts strike me as coming from people who's job it is to keep the dumb ones, and the ones who can't handle or understand the truth, on a collinear line that's meant to be visible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nope. Morality IS defined by society, or more accurately within a multitude of cultures and subcultures with various overlaps. Popular is not the right word for it. I wrote earlier that "you're >< (this close) to getting it". Now I suspect you do get it. I also suspect you get why Trump is doing so well: that he's free from GoP control and therefore free to be amoral which means he's free to go where polling data says to go. Yes I'm thinking you do get it--definitely the red part--but you're toeing some sort of line; a line that you seem to think is undetectable by others. You aren't the only one who gives me this feeling--some of the other 'respected-as-conservative members' whose intelligence I value give me the same feeling. I don't dislike you or any other; it's just odd to me that y'all's rhetoric reads one way while y'all's detail suggests what I suspect: that y'all know better. Y'all's posts strike me as coming from people who's job it is to keep the dumb ones, and the ones who can't handle or understand the truth, on a collinear line that's meant to be visible. IN!! |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 8:24:08 AM EDT
[#33]
It would take a real piece of shit to abort a healthy baby, lowest of low.
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Posted: 4/1/2016 9:28:31 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. Respectfully, no. "All" of Christianity does not agree on much of anything, and the "age of accountability" is far from generally accepted across all of Christendom. http://www.theopedia.com/age-of-accountability Many denominations/sects and individual Christians believe this, possibly even most, but certainly not all. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 10:05:47 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Catholicism isn't Christianity? What? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. Catholicism isn't Christianity? What? No, he was saying that Roman Catholicism isn't ALL of Christianity. No other denomination believes in Purgatory, for instance. The mention of Purgatory probably caused the confusion. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 11:03:22 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wrote earlier that "you're >< (this close) to getting it". Now I suspect you do get it. I also suspect you get why Trump is doing so well: that he's free from GoP control and therefore free to be amoral which means he's free to go where polling data says to go. Yes I'm thinking you do get it--definitely the red part--but you're toeing some sort of line; a line that you seem to think is undetectable by others. You aren't the only one who gives me this feeling--some of the other 'respected-as-conservative members' whose intelligence I value give me the same feeling. I don't dislike you or any other; it's just odd to me that y'all's rhetoric reads one way while y'all's detail suggests what I suspect: that y'all know better. Y'all's posts strike me as coming from people who's job it is to keep the dumb ones, and the ones who can't handle or understand the truth, on a collinear line that's meant to be visible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nope. Morality IS defined by society, or more accurately within a multitude of cultures and subcultures with various overlaps. Popular is not the right word for it. I wrote earlier that "you're >< (this close) to getting it". Now I suspect you do get it. I also suspect you get why Trump is doing so well: that he's free from GoP control and therefore free to be amoral which means he's free to go where polling data says to go. Yes I'm thinking you do get it--definitely the red part--but you're toeing some sort of line; a line that you seem to think is undetectable by others. You aren't the only one who gives me this feeling--some of the other 'respected-as-conservative members' whose intelligence I value give me the same feeling. I don't dislike you or any other; it's just odd to me that y'all's rhetoric reads one way while y'all's detail suggests what I suspect: that y'all know better. Y'all's posts strike me as coming from people who's job it is to keep the dumb ones, and the ones who can't handle or understand the truth, on a collinear line that's meant to be visible. 
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Posted: 4/1/2016 11:06:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, he was saying that Roman Catholicism isn't ALL of Christianity. No other denomination believes in Purgatory, for instance. The mention of Purgatory probably caused the confusion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. Catholicism isn't Christianity? What? No, he was saying that Roman Catholicism isn't ALL of Christianity. No other denomination believes in Purgatory, for instance. The mention of Purgatory probably caused the confusion. Exactly...I'm Lutheran....and our opinion on what happens to aborted children is this "Our God is a merciful God, but, the bible has no real specific instructions on this particular subject so,..we don't know" |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 11:07:23 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
What should her punishment be? Nothing |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 11:36:42 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly...I'm Lutheran....and our opinion on what happens to aborted children is this "Our God is a merciful God, but, the bible has no real specific instructions on this particular subject so,..we don't know" That is the position of Baptists also. If the Bible is silent, I am wise to be silent too. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 12:02:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nobody is getting off easy on this one. You gotta own it. Oh the irony. It's wildly irresponsible adults who bare ALL of the moral responsibility. The sad truth is that almost all abortions are stupid fucking whores killing a child because they WANT to. Not because they need to or they were raped. I'd rather see such people shot in the head and the baby saved. The world would be a better place. That said, government is incapable of producing moral outcomes, so evil shit like killing babies well continue. I don't see why so many folks have a problem with abortion. The mother avoids the burden of a child she doesn't want. The father doesn't have to pay child support. The abortion provider gets income. And the baby gets to bypass all of the pain and suffering in life, and go directly to Heaven to spend eternity in the loving arms of God. I'd call that a win-win-win-win. In most religions, Christianity included, babies do not get a pass to heaven. They are unbaptized, they have not been saved, they have not consciously taken Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, therefore, they don't get a pass. You are confusing Roman Catholicism for Christianity, perhaps, as I've never heard of that and it sounds like Roman Catholicism. They are not one and the same. It's generally accepted in all of the Christian denominations that children below the age of accountability do go to heaven. This is the main reason I broke from Christianity at the age of 13. I was in a Lutheran confirmation class and this topic came up. The preacher flat out stated that babies do not go to heaven. Mostly due to original sin. I asked about free will, and whether or not the child has a choice in making good or bad decisions and he said it didn't matter, to basically sit down and be quiet. From that day on I went through the motions and graduated, mainly for my mom who thought it was important. |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 7:25:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then why don't you drive to the ghetto and start murdering people at random? After all, if you argue against me, "the people you are trying to save are the ones voting away our fucking freedom." Oh, is that because murder is fucking wrong? Well excuse me! Jesus fuck. Go take your "I'm going full savage" bullshit to DU. I'm sure if it came time to genocide the membership here, they'd have no qualms. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Murder? Jesus Christ. Abortion should be the only subsidized health care in the country. Every trailer park, payday loan strip mall, and rent to own rims establishment should have a 15 minute abortion clinic attached to it....kinda like jiffy lube for the FSA.  And I say no punishment. Oh, is that because murder is fucking wrong? Well excuse me! Jesus fuck. Go take your "I'm going full savage" bullshit to DU. I'm sure if it came time to genocide the membership here, they'd have no qualms.  |
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Posted: 4/1/2016 10:11:29 PM EDT
[#42]
(shakes head)
The pro-life and pro-choice crowd are little more than pawns for separate sides of the same coin. One side wants to kill children to make money and the other wants to sell them for profit in the name of adoption. Both sides are tools helping special interests make money off the most vulnerable and they're too blind or stupid to see it. 
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Posted: 4/1/2016 10:45:48 PM EDT
[#43]
A mother gives birth and kills her baby 3 months later because she doesn't want it.
Should she be punished? What should the punishment be? A mother decides she doesn't want her baby and kills it three months before the due date. Punishment should be the same in both cases. |
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Posted: 4/2/2016 11:52:27 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am half tempted to open season on tweakers where I live but hey I guess their lives matter too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Murder? Jesus Christ. Abortion should be the only subsidized health care in the country. Every trailer park, payday loan strip mall, and rent to own rims establishment should have a 15 minute abortion clinic attached to it....kinda like jiffy lube for the FSA. And I say no punishment. Oh, is that because murder is fucking wrong? Well excuse me! Jesus fuck. Go take your "I'm going full savage" bullshit to DU. I'm sure if it came time to genocide the membership here, they'd have no qualms. Direct question- is murder wrong? |
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Posted: 4/2/2016 11:58:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
(shakes head) The pro-life and pro-choice crowd are little more than pawns for separate sides of the same coin. One side wants to kill children to make money and the other wants to sell them for profit in the name of adoption. That's one of the stupidest things I have read on this site. |
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Posted: 4/2/2016 12:33:34 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's one of the stupidest things I have read on this site. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
(shakes head) The pro-life and pro-choice crowd are little more than pawns for separate sides of the same coin. One side wants to kill children to make money and the other wants to sell them for profit in the name of adoption. That's one of the stupidest things I have read on this site. Yep. I couldn't come up with a gem like that after a 3 day grateful dead concert. |
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Posted: 4/2/2016 1:53:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What will happen is there will be a LOT of unwanted babies. The same people who voted to overturn Roe vs. Wade will find their teen aged daughters knocked up, and they will be FORCED to have the baby. If they are in college, they will have to drop out. If they have a job, they will lose a LOT of time from work. If they HAD their own apartment, they will likely lose it, and have to move back home. Very few single mother cn earn enough money to pay for day care. Forget about the baby daddy paying any child support. He's either left the state, doesn't have a job, or is working for minimum wage, part time, and McDonalds. Your daughter's life is completely destroyed. But yeah: make abortion legal. We need MILLIONS of unwanted children, born into poverty. They will help to keep the for profit prisons(AKA: forced slave labor camps) full. What a fucking SMART IDEA. Or maybe by banning abortion (and welfare while we're at it) will give parents a little more incentive to actual parent by screening out the shit bags they do not want fucking their daughter and fathering their grandchildren. I know, I know, PATRIARCHY!!! Much easier to just let your little princess follow her tingles for smooth talking unemployed losers and conveniently kill the baby or go on the public dole when an oops happens and the stud skips town. |
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Posted: 4/2/2016 8:51:11 PM EDT
[#48]
20 to life.
Fuck this only punish the doctor thing. If it were illegal and made to be 1st degree murder, well, that is 20 to life. A law is a law. Two willing participants in commission of a felony, charge both her and the doc. |
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Posted: 4/2/2016 9:44:08 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
I'd honestly like to know. Let's suppose that a woman is 6 weeks pregnant (I want to keep this easy). She wasn't raped. The pregnancy wasn't the result of incest. There is no known harm to her if she carries it to term. She had consensual sex, it resulted in the 6 week old fetus we're all talking about, and she flat out decided she didn't want to be a mother. No extenuating circumstances that any of us can think of. Simple as that. And in so doing, she illegally aborts her child for birth control purposes. Let's say this happens - it's straight up birth control, and nothing more. What should her punishment be? It depends, if there is a nearby state where it is legal, she will likely go there. Given how cheap air travel, it should not be a huge problem for anyone with a decent income. So the only people it will affect are the poor so we will get to support them. I am pro-keeping abortion legal so, nothing for punishment. |
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Posted: 4/2/2016 10:00:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Direct question- is murder wrong? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Murder? Jesus Christ. Abortion should be the only subsidized health care in the country. Every trailer park, payday loan strip mall, and rent to own rims establishment should have a 15 minute abortion clinic attached to it....kinda like jiffy lube for the FSA. And I say no punishment. Oh, is that because murder is fucking wrong? Well excuse me! Jesus fuck. Go take your "I'm going full savage" bullshit to DU. I'm sure if it came time to genocide the membership here, they'd have no qualms. Direct question- is murder wrong? |
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