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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:23:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That not how it has ever worked. You should really look into how poll taxes and literacy test were used in the past before you start espousing their value. I for one have no desire to repeat the sins and failures of my grandparents. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why would studying something other than the principles of our government be required? Wouldn't an unbiased study of history and historical governments from classical times on would be a much better field than human interaction? But, as I have stated repeatedly, the idea is to limit the franchise to those who want it, as showing by demonstrating their understanding of our government. Who's freedom does this limit? By the way, calling the founding document of our government "meaningless historical trivia" is sheer buffoonery. The Constitution is the highest law in the land. That not how it has ever worked. You should really look into how poll taxes and literacy test were used in the past before you start espousing their value. I for one have no desire to repeat the sins and failures of my grandparents. Leg irons were used to control and subjugate slaves. Therefore they cannot now be used for any purpose. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:25:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. One can enlist in many things that aren't military. Words mean things. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:26:42 PM EDT
[#3]
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I would rather expand the franchise to include them than move in the other direction to exclude greater numbers. People choosing not to vote is acceptable. Creating unworkable limitations to the franchise is not. Why the sudden qualification? |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:28:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
His continuing support of Jim Crow laws shows he doesn't even have a basic grasp of history in the US. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That is not the way the poll test were administered though. One Person would be asked who is president, another would be asked a college level essay on some obscure state supreme court case that nobody had thought about in 50 years. His continuing support of Jim Crow laws shows he doesn't even have a basic grasp of history in the US. What exactly do you imagine a Jim Crow law to be? |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:42:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Want to hear Heinlien speak, his actual voice?
Step back in time to the days of Sky King, Lassie and the USS Nautilus: Robert Heinlein in his own words (tldr, skip to 00:33) The author of that page is a very dear friend of mine, btw. If that link is a dupe, then I will buy the first two cites steak dinner for them and their sandwich engineer at Morton's in Chicago next time you're in town. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:44:25 PM EDT
[#6]
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What about Benjamin Franklin, ... In 1756, Franklin organized the Pennsylvania Militia (see "Associated Regiment of Philadelphia" under heading of Pennsylvania's 103rd Artillery and 111th Infantry Regiment at Continental Army). He used Tun Tavern as a gathering place to recruit a regiment of soldiers to go into battle against the Native American uprisings that beset the American colonies. Reportedly Franklin was elected "Colonel" of the Associated Regiment but declined the honor. ... Albert Einstein, .... On the eve of World War II, he endorsed a letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt alerting him to the potential development of "extremely powerful bombs of a new type" and recommending that the U.S. begin similar research. ... The letter is believed to be "arguably the key stimulus for the U.S. adoption of serious investigations into nuclear weapons on the eve of the U.S. entry into World War II".[90] In addition to the letter, Einstein used his connections with the Belgian Royal Family[91] and the Belgian queen mother[85] to get access with a personal envoy to the White House's Oval Office.[85] President Roosevelt could not take the risk of allowing Hitler to possess atomic bombs first. As a result of Einstein's letter and his meetings with Roosevelt, the U.S. entered the "race" to develop the bomb, drawing on its "immense material, financial, and scientific resources" to initiate the Manhattan Project. It became the only country to successfully develop an atomic bomb during World War II. and others.... How can I possibly respond to that unless you specify who the "others" are? say? Did they not play an important part in our nation's history? Did they not contribute to our nation and it's society? Just because someone wore a uniform doesn't make them pure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The problem was the book glorified military service as the ultimate form of service for citizenship. It is. What would George Patton say to that premise? Or John Paul Jones? Chesty Puller? Curtis Lemay? In 1756, Franklin organized the Pennsylvania Militia (see "Associated Regiment of Philadelphia" under heading of Pennsylvania's 103rd Artillery and 111th Infantry Regiment at Continental Army). He used Tun Tavern as a gathering place to recruit a regiment of soldiers to go into battle against the Native American uprisings that beset the American colonies. Reportedly Franklin was elected "Colonel" of the Associated Regiment but declined the honor. ... Albert Einstein, .... On the eve of World War II, he endorsed a letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt alerting him to the potential development of "extremely powerful bombs of a new type" and recommending that the U.S. begin similar research. ... The letter is believed to be "arguably the key stimulus for the U.S. adoption of serious investigations into nuclear weapons on the eve of the U.S. entry into World War II".[90] In addition to the letter, Einstein used his connections with the Belgian Royal Family[91] and the Belgian queen mother[85] to get access with a personal envoy to the White House's Oval Office.[85] President Roosevelt could not take the risk of allowing Hitler to possess atomic bombs first. As a result of Einstein's letter and his meetings with Roosevelt, the U.S. entered the "race" to develop the bomb, drawing on its "immense material, financial, and scientific resources" to initiate the Manhattan Project. It became the only country to successfully develop an atomic bomb during World War II. and others.... How can I possibly respond to that unless you specify who the "others" are? say? Did they not play an important part in our nation's history? Did they not contribute to our nation and it's society? Just because someone wore a uniform doesn't make them pure. Never said it did. It does mean they put themselves at risk for something greater. It's an indicator - just like suckling on the government teat is. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:55:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Want to hear Heinlien speak, his actual voice? Step back in time to the days of Sky King, Lassie and the USS Nautilus: Robert Heinlein in his own words (tldr, skip to 00:33) The author of that page is a very dear friend of mine, btw. If that link is a dupe, then I will buy the first two cites steak dinner for them and their sandwich engineer at Morton's in Chicago next time you're in town. Thank You...I heard that years ago, and had forgotten about it |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:20:37 PM EDT
[#8]
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I'm not in favor of poll tests either. Flawed system that can be used to keep certain classes of people from voting. Same with preventing them to gain citizenship. I believe in removing Citizenship by soil and do it only by naturalization and blood. But if we go that route.... expand the current rights to American Samoa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just to clarify since you and I seem to be on opposite sides of this issue... I am not advocating service for citizenship. John Kerry and John McCain are proof enough that it is a flawed concept. I am advocating a generic test on the Constitution for citizenship, and doing away with birthright citizenship. I'm not in favor of poll tests either. Flawed system that can be used to keep certain classes of people from voting. Same with preventing them to gain citizenship. I believe in removing Citizenship by soil and do it only by naturalization and blood. But if we go that route.... expand the current rights to American Samoa. Then we're asking for the same thing. I'm not suggesting a poll test, I'm suggesting a citizenship test. No one would be a citizen at birth. Keep the immigration and naturalization laws as they are, but any legal resident of the should be able to take the test and become a citizen. And if the test consists of 100 (or fewer) random questions drawn from a publicly published pool of 1,000 questions (pick your own numbers here), not unlike the FCC Amateur Radio License exams I don't see the opportunity to repress any segment of the population. Oh wait, let me add one. The publicly published questions, and the test itself, are in English only. But I have no problem with legal residents of US Territories being eligible for citizenship. I would further advocate that the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, among other writings from the Founding Fathers, would be taught in K-12. Age appropriate adjustments would have to be made of course, I'm just saying that it should be a mandatory part of a school curriculum. Edited to clarify that no one would be a citizen at birth. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:28:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). Many people in ST were non-white. Juan Rico was Filipino, last page of the book states is native language is Tagalog. Hassan "looks like something a fisherman let out of a bottle", an obvious reference to a Djinn, so I'm guessing Arabic heritage. Sgt. Jelal is a Fino-Turk, etc, etc, etc. No description is given for Ace, but with a nickname like that I presume he's Caucasian. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 11:19:15 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quote HistoryIt's Too Deep I;ve decided....it's the personification of TL/DR... People think I'm insane because I reread some books every year or so.. ST being one of them...some books TAKE several readings to get to the core...but "It's Science Fiction"...and automatically Discount it.... "Heinlein is a Racist/Pedo/Atheist/Theist/Incestuall/Facist/Nationalist/Whatever Nobody just takes it at it's value for what it is...some really ARE Just "Good Stories" but even the Juveniles, have a deeper message Starship Troopers is about as deep as "Karate Kid" Young man gets in fight with enemy Young man is mentored by quirky old geezer with big ideas Quirky old geezer turns out to be war hero but he is too humble to tell anyone (until we find out anyway) Whatever the geezer says...right out of his mouth...is the point the author was trying to make. Fighting and action sequences lures audience in so they can subliminally hear the authors point. Whether you agree with his point is up to you. The vehicle by which the point is delivered is a stereotypical vehicle. If you disagree with the school teachers point then you have "All Quiet on the Western Front." Another schoolhouse to battlefield novel. In that case the instructor was an incompetent soldier (just as Rico first thought Dubois was a blowhard corporal) and his political ideas were rejected by the student/soldiers and the author. The End |
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Posted: 3/29/2016 12:47:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). I can only think of two *white* characters. That was the key word that got left out while composing a cellphone based reply. 
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Posted: 3/29/2016 12:57:03 AM EDT
[#12]
He had many characters that I assume were "white". Most of his short stories and juveniles are seemingly honkies. If he didn't make a point to indicate otherwise in some way I just assume they are white folks.
H.H. Harriman was most assuredly a white man. As were most of the characters in "If This Goes On.." And many others. |
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Posted: 3/29/2016 2:23:51 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Want to hear Heinlien speak, his actual voice? Step back in time to the days of Sky King, Lassie and the USS Nautilus: Robert Heinlein in his own words (tldr, skip to 00:33) The author of that page is a very dear friend of mine, btw. If that link is a dupe, then I will buy the first two cites steak dinner for them and their sandwich engineer at Morton's in Chicago next time you're in town. Essentially, the same things Uncle Hub had to say... Especially at 0:50 LowBeta, thanks for posting that audio! I've been an admirer of Heinlein for longer than I can remember; his juvenile stories were part of my education, and are resposible for my ability to read and write well. |
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Posted: 3/29/2016 7:18:53 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He had many characters that I assume were "white". Most of his short stories and juveniles are seemingly honkies. If he didn't make a point to indicate otherwise in some way I just assume they are white folks. H.H. Harriman was most assuredly a white man. As were most of the characters in "If This Goes On.." And many others. once he got out of the "Juveniles" is when his characters started changing over |
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Posted: 3/29/2016 7:52:43 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can only think of two *white* characters. That was the key word that got left out while composing a cellphone based reply. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). I can only think of two *white* characters. That was the key word that got left out while composing a cellphone based reply. |
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Posted: 3/29/2016 10:45:18 AM EDT
[#16]
I have a much simpler solution.
You pay taxes = you vote. You may voluntarily opt out of paying taxes at any time, but if you do so you cannot work for the state in any capacity, and you lose your right to vote. I guarantee that changes the game considerably. Oh, and I'm with Miami_JBT with the birthright citizenship thing. American Samoa and others are treated as second class citizens, and it's bullshit. They've bled for us. |
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Posted: 3/30/2016 3:57:22 AM EDT
[#17]
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There were literacy tests in many southern states and their sole purpose was to keep minorities from voting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There wasn't a poll test. There was a poll tax. And I agree that a poll tax was a horrible Jim Crow "law". Service in some form or solving a simple equation seems eminently democratic. There were literacy tests in many southern states and their sole purpose was to keep minorities from voting. Men, those who CNT read, of whatever colour probably should not vote. You seem to confuse democracy w the rule of law. |
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Posted: 3/30/2016 4:54:46 AM EDT
[#18]
Atomic powered mech suits please!!!!
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Posted: 3/30/2016 5:35:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a much simpler solution. You pay taxes = you vote. You may voluntarily opt out of paying taxes at any time, but if you do so you cannot work for the state in any capacity, and you lose your right to vote. I guarantee that changes the game considerably. Oh, and I'm with Miami_JBT with the birthright citizenship thing. American Samoa and others are treated as second class citizens, and it's bullshit. They've bled for us. |
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Posted: 3/30/2016 7:03:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Do you feel the residents of Washington, DC should also be allowed to vote in federal elections?
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Posted: 3/31/2016 2:32:00 PM EDT
[#21]
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In this thread, we see that it is human nature for many to want to disenfranchise "others." It's just a question of who will be disenfranchised, for what reasons, to what degree, and through what mechanism. Start w women?? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 2:46:54 PM EDT
[#22]
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Because that's how the Constitution is supposed to work. Why do you hate Freedom bro? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Because that's how the Constitution is supposed to work. Why do you hate Freedom bro? you have grossly mistaken the Constitution or the concept of the rule of law with the concept of democracy. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 2:51:53 PM EDT
[#23]
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Well, because if it's a good idea to limit the franchise to only those who "understand how their government works," maybe it would be an even better idea to limit it further to only those who have advanced understanding of human interactions. Say, people with advanced degrees in sociology. From the right universities, of course. Let's face it, as you point out, any coarse brute can qualify under your system. Shouldn't we aspire to be an enlightened beacon for the masses in the rest of the world? Rather than meaningless historical trivia, those who can vote should really be paragons of group dynamics. Maybe a ruling council of our best and brightest...that sounds good. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Again your desire for the equality of outcome displays the marks of socialism. Our Republic is about the the equality of opportunity. Oh look you've resorted to calling me a socialist.  <--- my shocked face. But where have I have I talked about equality of outcome or any other socialist idea? Here's a clue; I haven't. I've said that denying suffrage is oppression.
How does one have equality of opportunity if they have no voice in their own governance? No, I said that your opinion displayed the marks of socialism. I say this to you because I believe you are unaware of it. And what has been suggested is not denying suffrage. Yet our Founding Fathers denied suffrage no less than some of these suggestions. If you wanted to vote you had to buy land. Question: Why should suffrage be free? Answer: It's not. It's paid for in blood. Paid by the previous generation, or by others of the current generation. All I want to do is make the person accruing the benefit be the one who pays the cost for it. Equality of opportunity is, or was, the hallmark of our society. Yet you push ceaselessly for the equality of outcome, regardless of what the person has done to put into the system. Why do you think the bar is set too high if a prospective citizen is required to learn the forms of our government prior to taking part in it? The equality of opportunity is that anyone can become a citizen if they choose to. Contrast that with equality of outcome where everyone is a citizen based on the accident (or, in the case of anchor babies, not) of the geographical location of their birth. Well, because if it's a good idea to limit the franchise to only those who "understand how their government works," maybe it would be an even better idea to limit it further to only those who have advanced understanding of human interactions. Say, people with advanced degrees in sociology. From the right universities, of course. Let's face it, as you point out, any coarse brute can qualify under your system. Shouldn't we aspire to be an enlightened beacon for the masses in the rest of the world? Rather than meaningless historical trivia, those who can vote should really be paragons of group dynamics. Maybe a ruling council of our best and brightest...that sounds good. slippery slope fallacy is an argument. There is a line to be drawn somewhere currently it is drawn at being 18 years of age there has to be a line somewhere just because it'scontroversial where to draw the line doesn't mean that there should not be one somewhere. I suggested that people have an inability to read or understand certain things or get high school diploma or something they shouldn't vote more especially I think that people who are on welfare should not vote since it is a gross conflict of interest that is just an example of a conflict of interest |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 2:55:07 PM EDT
[#24]
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Pournelle was more prescient, as much as I love Heinlein. can you please recommend a book? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 2:58:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Many here that claim to love Freedom and Liberty only do so for themselves and their selected others. They don't want it for everyone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In this thread, we see that it is human nature for many to want to disenfranchise "others." It's just a question of who will be disenfranchised, for what reasons, to what degree, and through what mechanism. the reality is that life is a competition and that at a certain point there are conflicts of interest. Society is pretty much a big competition between productive types and non productive types between people who can plan for the future and live more deliberate lives and actually care for their children and those who just have the shotgun method of reproduction. these are two different reproductive strategies that are probably mostly a matter of genetic trait and Society is currently a Battleground between these two types of the human subspecies Universal franchise will eventually guarantee not just the victory of the irresponsible k type reproductive method but the destruction of civilization itself. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 3:00:31 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FIFY
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC federal service as a whole. FIFY
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. well the book would not have been very exciting if it followed the short career of a guy who cleaned up litter in the national monuments |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 3:05:08 PM EDT
[#27]
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Have you ever seen the reading test many Southern States used to qualify voters back in the day? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There wasn't a poll test. There was a poll tax. And I agree that a poll tax was a horrible Jim Crow "law". Service in some form or solving a simple equation seems eminently democratic. Have you ever seen the reading test many Southern States used to qualify voters back in the day? I would like to see one can you post one up? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 3:06:52 PM EDT
[#28]
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What really disturbed me was the idea that someone who devoted their entire life to military service, never got to vote. why do people who are one termers get voting rights as soon as they get out, but someone who reups doesn't? The book gave an explanation for that, I can't remember what it was, but at the time I remember thinking the explanation is pants on retarded. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugates the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. What really disturbed me was the idea that someone who devoted their entire life to military service, never got to vote. why do people who are one termers get voting rights as soon as they get out, but someone who reups doesn't? The book gave an explanation for that, I can't remember what it was, but at the time I remember thinking the explanation is pants on retarded. maybe it was something like because when you were still in military service you were drawing a federal salary and that was a conflict of interest? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 3:30:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In Smith's Probability Broach, the US is an Anarcho-Capitalist country with a different History since 1789 because of the addidtion of ONE word in the Constitution.....Washington was Hanged as a Traitor because of the Whiskey Rebellion, People we Revere are Considered Anathema Wonderful Books......FICTIONAL... Pallas, Frehold.. Those societies exist as they do because they were Seeded from the Beginning...not converted from the FSA we now have Quote HistoryQuoted:
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and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). In Smith's Probability Broach, the US is an Anarcho-Capitalist country with a different History since 1789 because of the addidtion of ONE word in the Constitution.....Washington was Hanged as a Traitor because of the Whiskey Rebellion, People we Revere are Considered Anathema Wonderful Books......FICTIONAL... Pallas, Frehold.. Those societies exist as they do because they were Seeded from the Beginning...not converted from the FSA we now have what one word? Something to do with interstate commerce clause or something about taxes? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 3:38:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a much simpler solution. You pay taxes = you vote. You may voluntarily opt out of paying taxes at any time, but if you do so you cannot work for the state in any capacity, and you lose your right to vote. I guarantee that changes the game considerably. Oh, and I'm with Miami_JBT with the birthright citizenship thing. American Samoa and others are treated as second class citizens, and it's bullshit. They've bled for us. I'm pretty sure the ones that have blood for us became citizens by virtue of their enlistment in the military right? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 3:40:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would like to see one can you post one up? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There wasn't a poll test. There was a poll tax. And I agree that a poll tax was a horrible Jim Crow "law". Service in some form or solving a simple equation seems eminently democratic. Have you ever seen the reading test many Southern States used to qualify voters back in the day? I would like to see one can you post one up? There is a collection of literacy tests used in various southern states at the link I posted on the last page. Here is the link again. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 4:33:17 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you feel the residents of Washington, DC should also be allowed to vote in federal elections? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 5:48:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what one word? Something to do with interstate commerce clause or something about taxes? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). In Smith's Probability Broach, the US is an Anarcho-Capitalist country with a different History since 1789 because of the addidtion of ONE word in the Constitution.....Washington was Hanged as a Traitor because of the Whiskey Rebellion, People we Revere are Considered Anathema Wonderful Books......FICTIONAL... Pallas, Frehold.. Those societies exist as they do because they were Seeded from the Beginning...not converted from the FSA we now have what one word? Something to do with interstate commerce clause or something about taxes? 'Unanimous" as in "The Unanimous Consent of the Governed" It's a Great book, I picked it up in High School at a flea market..read it until it fell apart, and when it became available electronically i bought it, and pretty much everything else L Neil Smith Wrote. IIRC he did a Comic Book Sorry.. "Graphic Novel" version as well of Probability Broach. If you have an E-reader, Michael Z Williamson;s "Freehold" should still be on Baen;s Free Library. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 7:38:22 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, they should be able to vote. As should our citizens in our territories. As for the Washington DC and our territories having a say in Congress. Nope.... not DC and not the territories. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Do you feel the residents of Washington, DC should also be allowed to vote in federal elections? DC should exclude all residences other than the White House, with the border b/t Va and Md being redrawn and present DC residents voting in whichever state their homes end up in. Nothing says DC has to be contiguous. |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 7:49:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, they should be able to vote. As should our citizens in our territories. As for the Washington DC and our territories having a say in Congress. Nope.... not DC and not the territories. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Do you feel the residents of Washington, DC should also be allowed to vote in federal elections? But they BLEED for us!!! Why do you want to disenfranchise these people??? Why do you want to deny them their rights??? |
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Posted: 3/31/2016 10:11:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
'Unanimous" as in "The Unanimous Consent of the Governed" It's a Great book, I picked it up in High School at a flea market..read it until it fell apart, and when it became available electronically i bought it, and pretty much everything else L Neil Smith Wrote. IIRC he did a Comic Book Sorry.. "Graphic Novel" version as well of Probability Broach. If you have an E-reader, Michael Z Williamson;s "Freehold" should still be on Baen;s Free Library. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). In Smith's Probability Broach, the US is an Anarcho-Capitalist country with a different History since 1789 because of the addidtion of ONE word in the Constitution.....Washington was Hanged as a Traitor because of the Whiskey Rebellion, People we Revere are Considered Anathema Wonderful Books......FICTIONAL... Pallas, Frehold.. Those societies exist as they do because they were Seeded from the Beginning...not converted from the FSA we now have what one word? Something to do with interstate commerce clause or something about taxes? 'Unanimous" as in "The Unanimous Consent of the Governed" It's a Great book, I picked it up in High School at a flea market..read it until it fell apart, and when it became available electronically i bought it, and pretty much everything else L Neil Smith Wrote. IIRC he did a Comic Book Sorry.. "Graphic Novel" version as well of Probability Broach. If you have an E-reader, Michael Z Williamson;s "Freehold" should still be on Baen;s Free Library. I have read freehold. Fantastic book, every american should read. though i did think the parts on her becoming a bisexual occasional prostitute with a shaved pussy were kind of weird. |
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