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Posted: 3/28/2016 12:09:12 AM EDT
[#1]
Thought up dirty bombs and the UN...kind of.
Can't remember the name of it but he wrote a story where the US discovered that they could drop radio active dust over cities and kill everybody in the city. This leads to a world government organization that controls all radioactive materials and the banning of all private aviation. And to keep anybody from getting froggy, every country has military bases that are manned by foreign troops, ready to hop in their planes and dust anybody that gets out of line. I'm like 90% sure this was written before the bomb was used. Edit: yup, Solution Unsatisfactory 1941 Also, he was totally wrong about the fall of The Soviet Union. He firmly believed that their ideology was too strong for economic pressure to overcome. For those interested... Requiem: New Collected Works by Robert A. Heinlein and Tributes to the Grand Master It's a great read that contains several keynote speeches given by Heinlein as well as tributes from his contemporaries...along with a couple short stories. It really gives a lot of insight into who the man was. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 12:10:26 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, good news is that there is a remake for Starship Troopers in the works. Annapurna Pictures is producing it. Said Producers were the ones behind "Killing Them Softly" and "Zero Dark Thirty." They also have voiced complaints that the first film was not true to the novel. So my hopes are up. I loved the movie, despite it being a farce and ripping on the novel. I hope they do it right. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 1:37:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, good news is that there is a remake for Starship Troopers in the works. Annapurna Pictures is producing it. Said Producers were the ones behind "Killing Them Softly" and "Zero Dark Thirty." They also have voiced complaints that the first film was not true to the novel. So my hopes are up. I loved the movie, despite it being a farce and ripping on the novel. The movie would have stood alone as a good action SF flick, if they hadn't named it after ST. Hell, Verhooven didn't even rip the best stuff from the book! |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 2:48:57 AM EDT
[#4]
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Great, but where did he show any of those in the book? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC federal service as a whole. FIFY 
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. Citizens are people who joined the Federal Service and were honorably discharged and given franchise. Joining the Federal Service does not necessarily mean the military, and applicants may be assigned to any field where they sacrifice their time and effort for the Federation (Teaching, any of the civil services, experimental test subjects, etc), though military service is the most glorified. It all falls under Federal Service. http://starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Citizen Great, but where did he show any of those in the book? You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 3:23:24 AM EDT
[#5]
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I would rather expand the franchise to include them than move in the other direction to exclude greater numbers. People choosing not to vote is acceptable. Creating unworkable limitations to the franchise is not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You propose one limitation. If limitations are acceptable, why stop there? Surely we could do better? Or only your limitation will be considered? Are you familiar with the road to hell? Personally, I prefer that the franchise be extended to the maximum number with no restriction. Anything else is just arguing who the slaves will be. you already accept several restrictions, namely age, citizenship, and incarceration. why don't we allow 13-year-olds to vote? why don't we allow prison inmates to vote? why don't we allow noncitizens to vote? all of these policies boil down to a threshold of awareness, alignment of interests, and investment in society. you're operating on exactly the same presumptions--just drawing the line in a different place. so don't delude yourself. you're in favor of restrictions. Actually, I am not "in favor" of the existing restrictions, I simply don't care about them enough to lobby for their change. However, I know what it means when people want to further restrict the franchise, there has never been a shortage of people who would, given the opportunity. It is a dark aspect of human nature that makes one support an idea which places them in the elite. I would oppose that vehemently. so you believe that children, murderers, and foreigners should be able to vote in US elections? I would rather expand the franchise to include them than move in the other direction to exclude greater numbers. People choosing not to vote is acceptable. Creating unworkable limitations to the franchise is not. Choosing not to vote is as easy, under my proposal, as choosing not to become a citizen. Under my proposal anyone who wants to can become a citizen. The test would be on the Constitution, nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else. The only restrictions would be self imposed. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 3:41:29 AM EDT
[#6]
I see this is just a thread for folks to herp derp "service = citizenship, is dumb," out themselves as having never read the book. But it does give them a springboard to accuse everyone else of racism, sexism, whateverism, because they just feeeeeeeeeeeeelllll that is what is happening.
If only there was a rice celebration party, with coordinates clearly broadcast, that folks could go party at. It's just rice from the sky. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 4:07:20 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you.
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:08:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist insist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. That's a typo, it's supposed to be "insist". Read it again with my correction and you'll see it actually makes sense. Besides, people used to enlist in the Peace Corps. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:16:43 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see this is just a thread for folks to herp derp "service = citizenship, is dumb," out themselves as having never read the book. But it does give them a springboard to accuse everyone else of racism, sexism, whateverism, because they just feeeeeeeeeeeeelllll that is what is happening. If only there was a rice celebration party, with coordinates clearly broadcast, that folks could go party at. It's just rice from the sky. I read it. I simply question why mandatory government service isn't viewed askance. It is ripe for abuse. Once again, though: science fiction is a great place for authors to explore societal shifts. They write about plural marriages, interspecies alien dating, interstellar travel and the like. It was an interesting subject for Heinlein to write fiction about... not that it should be adopted. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:25:35 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, good news is that there is a remake for Starship Troopers in the works. Annapurna Pictures is producing it. Said Producers were the ones behind "Killing Them Softly" and "Zero Dark Thirty." They also have voiced complaints that the first film was not true to the novel. So my hopes are up. I loved the movie, despite it being a farce and ripping on the novel. IIRC the original movie was just a generic Mil SciFi movie...someone had the bright Idea to try and adapt it to fit Troopers, and pitched it to Verhoven that way... Puppet Masters, while not GREAT was a fairly decent adaptation of the original book...Heinlein fans expected the same from Troopers..and well.... |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:27:20 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC federal service as a whole. FIFY
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. Citizens are people who joined the Federal Service and were honorably discharged and given franchise. Joining the Federal Service does not necessarily mean the military, and applicants may be assigned to any field where they sacrifice their time and effort for the Federation (Teaching, any of the civil services, experimental test subjects, etc), though military service is the most glorified. It all falls under Federal Service. http://starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Citizen Great, but where did he show any of those in the book? You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. You're WAY more patient than I am..i Started to do that but said Fuck it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:32:25 AM EDT
[#12]
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We tried the whole poll test (or whatever we called it), turns out it's just another way to keep down those who are not liked. I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugated the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. But in any case the act of service demonstrated some skin in the game. He wrote about an even simpler idea about voting. Enter the booth and have, say, 5 minutes to solve a random exponential equation. Not hard to do and demonstrates the ability to think logically. Can't solve it? No vote. We tried the whole poll test (or whatever we called it), turns out it's just another way to keep down those who are not liked. I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. It was a poll TAX enacted by DEMOCRATs to keep Free Blacks from voting. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:35:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 7:49:46 AM EDT
[#14]
Heinlein a Libertarian who dabbled with communism as a young man,
Huxley and Asimov both communists but their writings warn of over reaching government...never made sense to me? Bradbury, PK Dick and dozens of others wrote of dystopian societies choked by MASSIVE givernments... many, most, saw the horrors of WWII and Hitlers/Mousillini's fascism, The threat of the Soviet Union was loomng over the heads of Americans...Control over the masses is so Anti American..it was an easy sell... |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 8:27:07 AM EDT
[#15]
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It was a poll TAX enacted by DEMOCRATs to keep Free Blacks from voting. There were poll taxes and in some southern states there were literacy tests. Link |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 9:22:39 AM EDT
[#16]
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Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. Maybe you missed the point that it was a typo. Maybe you never read the book. You could count the hair on a caterpillar and get the franchise. You could be incapable of any military service as we know it and get the right to vote. Heinlein didnt emphasize that as there were only two other characters enlisting. At any rate, your question is answered. Have a nice day. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 9:53:49 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe you missed the point that it was a typo. Maybe you never read the book. You could count the hair on a caterpillar and get the franchise. You could be incapable of any military service as we know it and get the right to vote. Heinlein didnt emphasize that as there were only two other characters enlisting. At any rate, your question is answered. Have a nice day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. Maybe you missed the point that it was a typo. Maybe you never read the book. You could count the hair on a caterpillar and get the franchise. You could be incapable of any military service as we know it and get the right to vote. Heinlein didnt emphasize that as there were only two other characters enlisting. At any rate, your question is answered. Have a nice day. He also mentioned the Clerks, Docs and others in the chapter. I've found many times however, people read it once, and never ever deviate from their first impressions. I first read it at around age 11 or 12, and didnt understand a lot of it, as I reread it over the years, the underlying message became much clearer. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 10:09:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see this is just a thread for folks to herp derp "service = citizenship, is dumb," out themselves as having never read the book. But it does give them a springboard to accuse everyone else of racism, sexism, whateverism, because they just feeeeeeeeeeeeelllll that is what is happening. If only there was a rice celebration party, with coordinates clearly broadcast, that folks could go party at. It's just rice from the sky. I posted this furher back. You want American Samoa then.... they are US Nationals and must apply for US Citizenship just like every legal immigrant. Do you know which Political Party wants to keep it that way? The Democrats. Same with the issue of Puerto Rico becoming a State. The GOP pushes for them becoming a State and the Democrats want them to stay as a colony. The GOP pushes for American Samoans to be US Citizens since they have fought, bled, and died for this country since 1899. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 12:25:56 PM EDT
[#19]
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I've read it multiple timea. Still don't agree with the idea. I posted this furher back. You want American Samoa then.... they are US Nationals and must apply for US Citizenship just like every legal immigrant. Do you know which Political Party wants to keep it that way? The Democrats. Same with the issue of Puerto Rico becoming a State. The GOP pushes for them becoming a State and the Democrats want them to stay as a colony. The GOP pushes for American Samoans to be US Citizens since they have fought, bled, and died for this country since 1899. American Samoa is noted for having the highest rate of military enlistment of any U.S. state or territory. As of September 9, 2014, the local U.S. Army Recruiting Station in Pago Pago was ranked first in production out of the 885 Army recruiting stations and centers under the United States Army Recruiting Command (USAREC), which includes the 50 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, Korea, Japan, and Europe. Yet under your idea.... they're still second class citizens. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see this is just a thread for folks to herp derp "service = citizenship, is dumb," out themselves as having never read the book. But it does give them a springboard to accuse everyone else of racism, sexism, whateverism, because they just feeeeeeeeeeeeelllll that is what is happening. If only there was a rice celebration party, with coordinates clearly broadcast, that folks could go party at. It's just rice from the sky. I posted this furher back. You want American Samoa then.... they are US Nationals and must apply for US Citizenship just like every legal immigrant. Do you know which Political Party wants to keep it that way? The Democrats. Same with the issue of Puerto Rico becoming a State. The GOP pushes for them becoming a State and the Democrats want them to stay as a colony. The GOP pushes for American Samoans to be US Citizens since they have fought, bled, and died for this country since 1899. American Samoa is noted for having the highest rate of military enlistment of any U.S. state or territory. As of September 9, 2014, the local U.S. Army Recruiting Station in Pago Pago was ranked first in production out of the 885 Army recruiting stations and centers under the United States Army Recruiting Command (USAREC), which includes the 50 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, Korea, Japan, and Europe. Yet under your idea.... they're still second class citizens. Because I'm clearly championing the idea and hate Samoans. My livelihood depends on keeping them second class citizens. 
Or, maybe it's pretty damn easy to spot who has and hasn't (BigDAM) read the book. You know, like I originally said. Folks can like or dislike voter enfranchisment in the book. But twisting it into some race issue... When the main damn character of the book is Filipino... Yeah... |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 1:15:21 PM EDT
[#20]
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Because I'm clearly championing the idea and hate Samoans. My livelihood depends on keeping them second class citizens.
Or, maybe it's pretty damn easy to spot who has and hasn't (BigDAM) read the book. You know, like I originally said. Folks can like or dislike voter enfranchisment in the book. But twisting it into some race issue... When the main damn character of the book is Filipino... Yeah... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see this is just a thread for folks to herp derp "service = citizenship, is dumb," out themselves as having never read the book. But it does give them a springboard to accuse everyone else of racism, sexism, whateverism, because they just feeeeeeeeeeeeelllll that is what is happening. If only there was a rice celebration party, with coordinates clearly broadcast, that folks could go party at. It's just rice from the sky. I posted this furher back. You want American Samoa then.... they are US Nationals and must apply for US Citizenship just like every legal immigrant. Do you know which Political Party wants to keep it that way? The Democrats. Same with the issue of Puerto Rico becoming a State. The GOP pushes for them becoming a State and the Democrats want them to stay as a colony. The GOP pushes for American Samoans to be US Citizens since they have fought, bled, and died for this country since 1899. American Samoa is noted for having the highest rate of military enlistment of any U.S. state or territory. As of September 9, 2014, the local U.S. Army Recruiting Station in Pago Pago was ranked first in production out of the 885 Army recruiting stations and centers under the United States Army Recruiting Command (USAREC), which includes the 50 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, Korea, Japan, and Europe. Yet under your idea.... they're still second class citizens. Because I'm clearly championing the idea and hate Samoans. My livelihood depends on keeping them second class citizens.
Or, maybe it's pretty damn easy to spot who has and hasn't (BigDAM) read the book. You know, like I originally said. Folks can like or dislike voter enfranchisment in the book. But twisting it into some race issue... When the main damn character of the book is Filipino... Yeah... and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 1:23:39 PM EDT
[#21]
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. service did not mean military it meant to the community. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 1:34:01 PM EDT
[#22]
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the fact that I'm subject to the laws and ruling of the government is all the "skin" I need in this "game". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. It may be all the skin you, personally, need in the game to encourage you to understand the laws you live under and attempt to vote responsible people into office, but one look at the FSA and it becomes obvious that it's not enough skin in the game for everyone to behave responsibly. Children want expect everything for free. Men know they have to earn what they want. Why should something so precious as US citizenship be any different? |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 1:55:45 PM EDT
[#23]
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and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 2:11:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because I'm clearly championing the idea and hate Samoans. My livelihood depends on keeping them second class citizens. Or, maybe it's pretty damn easy to spot who has and hasn't (BigDAM) read the book. You know, like I originally said. Folks can like or dislike voter enfranchisment in the book. But twisting it into some race issue... When the main damn character of the book is Filipino... Yeah... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I see this is just a thread for folks to herp derp "service = citizenship, is dumb," out themselves as having never read the book. But it does give them a springboard to accuse everyone else of racism, sexism, whateverism, because they just feeeeeeeeeeeeelllll that is what is happening. If only there was a rice celebration party, with coordinates clearly broadcast, that folks could go party at. It's just rice from the sky. I posted this furher back. You want American Samoa then.... they are US Nationals and must apply for US Citizenship just like every legal immigrant. Do you know which Political Party wants to keep it that way? The Democrats. Same with the issue of Puerto Rico becoming a State. The GOP pushes for them becoming a State and the Democrats want them to stay as a colony. The GOP pushes for American Samoans to be US Citizens since they have fought, bled, and died for this country since 1899. American Samoa is noted for having the highest rate of military enlistment of any U.S. state or territory. As of September 9, 2014, the local U.S. Army Recruiting Station in Pago Pago was ranked first in production out of the 885 Army recruiting stations and centers under the United States Army Recruiting Command (USAREC), which includes the 50 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, Korea, Japan, and Europe. Yet under your idea.... they're still second class citizens. Because I'm clearly championing the idea and hate Samoans. My livelihood depends on keeping them second class citizens. Or, maybe it's pretty damn easy to spot who has and hasn't (BigDAM) read the book. You know, like I originally said. Folks can like or dislike voter enfranchisment in the book. But twisting it into some race issue... When the main damn character of the book is Filipino... Yeah... |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 2:35:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He also mentioned the Clerks, Docs and others in the chapter. I've found many times however, people read it once, and never ever deviate from their first impressions. I first read it at around age 11 or 12, and didnt understand a lot of it, as I reread it over the years, the underlying message became much clearer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. Maybe you missed the point that it was a typo. Maybe you never read the book. You could count the hair on a caterpillar and get the franchise. You could be incapable of any military service as we know it and get the right to vote. Heinlein didnt emphasize that as there were only two other characters enlisting. At any rate, your question is answered. Have a nice day. He also mentioned the Clerks, Docs and others in the chapter. I've found many times however, people read it once, and never ever deviate from their first impressions. I first read it at around age 11 or 12, and didnt understand a lot of it, as I reread it over the years, the underlying message became much clearer. When I first read it I thought it was about mobile infantry and hard core combat. Later I thought about the federal vs military vs civilian right to vote. Having it read it a few times I go to the idea the core of the book is page 76-77; and that philosophically has had a big impact on my life. value is not absolute it is relative the value of a thing is always relative to a particular person market value is a fiction value has two factors for a person: 1, what he can do with a thing 2. what he must do to get it, its cost to him. the best things in life are free...false. nothing of value is free "If you...had to sweat for your toys the way a baby has to struggle to live you would be happier...I pity the poverty of your wealth" If you finish fourth in a race, a blue ribbon is valueless, as you didnt earn it. "The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion...and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself---ultimate cost for perfect value" The philosophy is the kernel of the book, the critical part of the book is when Dubois, as a stand-in for Heinlein, is a mysterious figure that presents the philosophy from the perspective of a wise warrior who has seen the world, and life. The military service is an example of the philosophy, and the bug hunting is the hook to get teenage boys to read it. The father rejects the philosophy to pursue money and then realizes the error of his ways late in life and joins the MI. The bugs have nothing to do with it. The discussion over the vote and the franchise is interesting but the US will never go there, but that isnt the point anyway. The point is an example of a philosophy that is useful at the individual level. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 2:48:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I first read it I thought it was about mobile infantry and hard core combat. Later I thought about the federal vs military vs civilian right to vote. Having it read it a few times I go to the idea the core of the book is page 76-77; and that philosophically has had a big impact on my life. value is not absolute it is relative the value of a thing is always relative to a particular person market value is a fiction value has two factors for a person: 1, what he can do with a thing 2. what he must do to get it, its cost to him. the best things in life are free...false. nothing of value is free "If you...had to sweat for your toys the way a baby has to struggle to live you would be happier...I pity the poverty of your wealth" If you finish fourth in a race, a blue ribbon is valueless, as you didnt earn it. "The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion...and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself---ultimate cost for perfect value" The philosophy is the kernel of the book, the critical part of the book is when Dubois, as a stand-in for Heinlein, is a mysterious figure that presents the philosophy from the perspective of a wise warrior who has seen the world, and life. The military service is an example of the philosophy, and the bug hunting is the hook to get teenage boys to read it. The father rejects the philosophy to pursue money and then realizes the error of his ways late in life and joins the MI. The bugs have nothing to do with it. The discussion over the vote and the franchise is interesting but the US will never go there, but that isnt the point anyway. The point is an example of a philosophy that is useful at the individual level. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. Maybe you missed the point that it was a typo. Maybe you never read the book. You could count the hair on a caterpillar and get the franchise. You could be incapable of any military service as we know it and get the right to vote. Heinlein didnt emphasize that as there were only two other characters enlisting. At any rate, your question is answered. Have a nice day. He also mentioned the Clerks, Docs and others in the chapter. I've found many times however, people read it once, and never ever deviate from their first impressions. I first read it at around age 11 or 12, and didnt understand a lot of it, as I reread it over the years, the underlying message became much clearer. When I first read it I thought it was about mobile infantry and hard core combat. Later I thought about the federal vs military vs civilian right to vote. Having it read it a few times I go to the idea the core of the book is page 76-77; and that philosophically has had a big impact on my life. value is not absolute it is relative the value of a thing is always relative to a particular person market value is a fiction value has two factors for a person: 1, what he can do with a thing 2. what he must do to get it, its cost to him. the best things in life are free...false. nothing of value is free "If you...had to sweat for your toys the way a baby has to struggle to live you would be happier...I pity the poverty of your wealth" If you finish fourth in a race, a blue ribbon is valueless, as you didnt earn it. "The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion...and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself---ultimate cost for perfect value" The philosophy is the kernel of the book, the critical part of the book is when Dubois, as a stand-in for Heinlein, is a mysterious figure that presents the philosophy from the perspective of a wise warrior who has seen the world, and life. The military service is an example of the philosophy, and the bug hunting is the hook to get teenage boys to read it. The father rejects the philosophy to pursue money and then realizes the error of his ways late in life and joins the MI. The bugs have nothing to do with it. The discussion over the vote and the franchise is interesting but the US will never go there, but that isnt the point anyway. The point is an example of a philosophy that is useful at the individual level. Which is why I advocate for an individual mandate for citizenship rather than a mass market approach. Let the individual with enough personal responsibility to want to get involved with the government do so, and let the persons who are not so inclined not be bothered with it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 2:48:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've found him to be an author that I'm generally in agreement with, more so than most others. Funny thing is, I don't like a lot of what he's actually written, don't like the characters much. Herere a few quotes by him that I've got in a rtf file “Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate — and quickly.” “A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill.” “A desire not to butt into other people's business is at least eighty percent of all human wisdom.” “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” “There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.” “Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.” “A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot.” “Belief gets in the way of learning.” “But goodness alone is never enough. A hard, cold wisdom is required for goodness to accomplish good. Goodness without wisdom always accomplishes evil.” “I do know that the slickest way to lie is to tell the right amount of truth--then shut up.” "Nothing of value is free. Even the breath of life is purchased at birth only through gasping effort and pain. . . . The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion . . . and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself--ultimate cost for perfect value." My old man claimed that the more complicated the law the more opportunity for scoundrels. That old saw about "to understand all is to forgive all" is a lot of tripe. Some things, the more you understand the more you loathe them. A committee is the only known form of life with a hundred bellies and no brain. You're in bad shape when your emotions force you into acts which you know are foolish. If those quotes baffle you, I really don't know what to tell you. They are so forthright that they are self evident. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 2:49:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We tried the whole poll test (or whatever we called it), turns out it's just another way to keep down those who are not liked. I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugated the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. But in any case the act of service demonstrated some skin in the game. He wrote about an even simpler idea about voting. Enter the booth and have, say, 5 minutes to solve a random exponential equation. Not hard to do and demonstrates the ability to think logically. Can't solve it? No vote. We tried the whole poll test (or whatever we called it), turns out it's just another way to keep down those who are not liked. I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. The Founding Fathers disagree with you. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 3:07:24 PM EDT
[#29]
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I say he did, clearly. And I postulate here that his Starship Troopers describes the current war between western civilization and the bugs of islam. Probably not his intention with the novel but don't laugh until you've given it some consideration. Not the movie. The novel. I say he described this war more precisely than he could have known. Absofuckinglutely, also the moon is a harsh mistress is a very fortelling novel. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 3:42:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Founding Fathers disagree with you. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 4:36:02 PM EDT
[#31]
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The Founding Fathers had no issues with owning their fellow humans and treating women like property either. They weren't perfect. Less than 50 years ago my marriage would have been illegal. The Happy Past wasn't that happy for folks of color. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Founding Fathers disagree with you. I agree the FF were not perfect and I'm not advocating slavery, but don't you think the FF were enlightened and patriots? The mechanism they chose to limit the franchise was not optimal, but recognizing the self evident facts that universal suffrage is a surefire way to destroy the Republic they created cannot be discredited because of feelings. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 4:41:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree the FF were not perfect and I'm not advocating slavery, but don't you think the FF were enlightened and patriots? The mechanism they chose to limit the franchise was not optimal, but recognizing the self evident facts that universal suffrage is a surefire way to destroy the Republic they created cannot be discredited because of feelings. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Founding Fathers disagree with you. I agree the FF were not perfect and I'm not advocating slavery, but don't you think the FF were enlightened and patriots? The mechanism they chose to limit the franchise was not optimal, but recognizing the self evident facts that universal suffrage is a surefire way to destroy the Republic they created cannot be discredited because of feelings. I was once a believer of Service for Citizenship but now I'm against it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 4:58:19 PM EDT
[#33]
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Since you and I agree that they were not perfect. I stand by my belief that their stance on limiting universal suffrage was one of their faults. Limiting suffrage to a certain age is fine. Limiting it to only US Citizens is fine. Even requiring proper legitimate ID is fine. But stripping citizens of their rights is wrong because they don't want to "serve" is wrong. I was once a believer of Service for Citizenship but now I'm against it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Founding Fathers disagree with you. I agree the FF were not perfect and I'm not advocating slavery, but don't you think the FF were enlightened and patriots? The mechanism they chose to limit the franchise was not optimal, but recognizing the self evident facts that universal suffrage is a surefire way to destroy the Republic they created cannot be discredited because of feelings. I was once a believer of Service for Citizenship but now I'm against it. Just to clarify since you and I seem to be on opposite sides of this issue... I am not advocating service for citizenship. John Kerry and John McCain are proof enough that it is a flawed concept. I am advocating a generic test on the Constitution for citizenship, and doing away with birthright citizenship. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:07:20 PM EDT
[#34]
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There were literacy tests in many southern states and their sole purpose was to keep minorities from voting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There wasn't a poll test. There was a poll tax. And I agree that a poll tax was a horrible Jim Crow "law". Service in some form or solving a simple equation seems eminently democratic. There were literacy tests in many southern states and their sole purpose was to keep minorities from voting. With questions like " what does purple smell like, answer using a differnential equation citing Pi, -E, and y=mx+b? " |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:17:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to clarify since you and I seem to be on opposite sides of this issue... I am not advocating service for citizenship. John Kerry and John McCain are proof enough that it is a flawed concept. I am advocating a generic test on the Constitution for citizenship, and doing away with birthright citizenship. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:23:14 PM EDT
[#36]
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It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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and it's also no longer national governments, it's a United world Govt............ Much like with Smith's Pallas and Broach, or Williamson's Freehold... It's Fictional....but the way some people are reacting you'd think we were talking about Instituting it in the here and now...there were specific events that Led to the adoption of the Government System in ST.....of course, the fact that what we're living Today is a chillingly close proximation to those events is just coincidence. It's odd how people can't grasp the concept of science fiction. It all comes back to exploring certain aspects of humanity given a unique set of circumstances. How might the world react, if energy was free or if there were sex bots on every corner? Too many folks can't grasp exploring a concept versus advocating something. What makes this thread even more laughable, especially all the racial talk is that Heinlein's work is notorious for NOT having white folks. Lol. Well, I wouldn't say notorious, but damn near everyone in all of his books is some shade of tan. Everyone. I can only think of two characters maney (Russian) and lazerous long (Irish or Scot??). In Smith's Probability Broach, the US is an Anarcho-Capitalist country with a different History since 1789 because of the addidtion of ONE word in the Constitution.....Washington was Hanged as a Traitor because of the Whiskey Rebellion, People we Revere are Considered Anathema Wonderful Books......FICTIONAL... Pallas, Frehold.. Those societies exist as they do because they were Seeded from the Beginning...not converted from the FSA we now have |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:27:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. I don't think they want to remove so much as qualify it. That said, your point is taken. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind a quiz of one question from ten known questions-and-answers given in advance and up to walking in the door to vote. If you can't bother with even that level of involvement, you probably shouldn't have your "representation" taken any more seriously... |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:28:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I first read it I thought it was about mobile infantry and hard core combat. Later I thought about the federal vs military vs civilian right to vote. Having it read it a few times I go to the idea the core of the book is page 76-77; and that philosophically has had a big impact on my life. value is not absolute it is relative the value of a thing is always relative to a particular person market value is a fiction value has two factors for a person: 1, what he can do with a thing 2. what he must do to get it, its cost to him. the best things in life are free...false. nothing of value is free "If you...had to sweat for your toys the way a baby has to struggle to live you would be happier...I pity the poverty of your wealth" If you finish fourth in a race, a blue ribbon is valueless, as you didnt earn it. "The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion...and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself---ultimate cost for perfect value" The philosophy is the kernel of the book, the critical part of the book is when Dubois, as a stand-in for Heinlein, is a mysterious figure that presents the philosophy from the perspective of a wise warrior who has seen the world, and life. The military service is an example of the philosophy, and the bug hunting is the hook to get teenage boys to read it. The father rejects the philosophy to pursue money and then realizes the error of his ways late in life and joins the MI. The bugs have nothing to do with it. The discussion over the vote and the franchise is interesting but the US will never go there, but that isnt the point anyway. The point is an example of a philosophy that is useful at the individual level. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You must be one of those guys who has to have everything spoon fed. Why dont you re-read it and answer your own question? Never mind, I'll do it for you. There were three high school kids, the narrator who goes mobile infantry, the female who goes aviation or navy, and Carl, who qualified for electronics but got R&D. Generally not a lot fo R&D is done by th emilitary, but never mind. On page 29 Rico asks the recruiter how many fail the physical and he replies "we never fail anyone. The law doesn't permit us to...if you came in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to enlist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath. So yeah, line 15 of page 29. Matbe you missed the word enlist. I highlighted it for you. Maybe you missed the point that it was a typo. Maybe you never read the book. You could count the hair on a caterpillar and get the franchise. You could be incapable of any military service as we know it and get the right to vote. Heinlein didnt emphasize that as there were only two other characters enlisting. At any rate, your question is answered. Have a nice day. He also mentioned the Clerks, Docs and others in the chapter. I've found many times however, people read it once, and never ever deviate from their first impressions. I first read it at around age 11 or 12, and didnt understand a lot of it, as I reread it over the years, the underlying message became much clearer. When I first read it I thought it was about mobile infantry and hard core combat. Later I thought about the federal vs military vs civilian right to vote. Having it read it a few times I go to the idea the core of the book is page 76-77; and that philosophically has had a big impact on my life. value is not absolute it is relative the value of a thing is always relative to a particular person market value is a fiction value has two factors for a person: 1, what he can do with a thing 2. what he must do to get it, its cost to him. the best things in life are free...false. nothing of value is free "If you...had to sweat for your toys the way a baby has to struggle to live you would be happier...I pity the poverty of your wealth" If you finish fourth in a race, a blue ribbon is valueless, as you didnt earn it. "The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion...and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself---ultimate cost for perfect value" The philosophy is the kernel of the book, the critical part of the book is when Dubois, as a stand-in for Heinlein, is a mysterious figure that presents the philosophy from the perspective of a wise warrior who has seen the world, and life. The military service is an example of the philosophy, and the bug hunting is the hook to get teenage boys to read it. The father rejects the philosophy to pursue money and then realizes the error of his ways late in life and joins the MI. The bugs have nothing to do with it. The discussion over the vote and the franchise is interesting but the US will never go there, but that isnt the point anyway. The point is an example of a philosophy that is useful at the individual level. It's Too Deep I;ve decided....it's the personification of TL/DR... People think I'm insane because I reread some books every year or so.. ST being one of them...some books TAKE several readings to get to the core...but "It's Science Fiction"...and automatically Discount it.... "Heinlein is a Racist/Pedo/Atheist/Theist/Incestuall/Facist/Nationalist/Whatever Nobody just takes it at it's value for what it is...some really ARE Just "Good Stories" but even the Juveniles, have a deeper message |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:30:47 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Thinking that is what he said is retarded. Service = right to exercise the franchise= vote. One can be a citizen and not have voting privileges. Another thing that is retarded is our current system of near-universal suffrage. It is ruining the country. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:36:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We tried the whole poll test (or whatever we called it), turns out it's just another way to keep down those who are not liked. I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. How can you not? Been to Detroit? Birmingham? Memphis? Atlanta? Philadelphia? Chicago? The Founding Fathers put limited suffrage in for a reason. There s a cause and effect relationship in that the further we stray form that, the worse we do. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:37:16 PM EDT
[#41]
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I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Lol if you think everyone that has served has skin in the game. Plenty of people who spent time in the military and jacked off in a motorpool for 4 years. Just my 2 cents. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:38:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope it wasn't and what did we see for the next hundred years? That groups without a voice are subjugated. We shouldn't be trying to give back the gains we've made as a society. We have to find ways to find the center ground between creating apartheid and what we see today with multi-generational welfare leaches. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Universal suffrage was not a value or ideal of the founding fathers. In fact, quite the opposite. So yes America's historical "patriots" didn't believe every mouth breather should be allowed to vote. Nope it wasn't and what did we see for the next hundred years? That groups without a voice are subjugated. We shouldn't be trying to give back the gains we've made as a society. We have to find ways to find the center ground between creating apartheid and what we see today with multi-generational welfare leaches. The two are linked. One begats the other. Letting uneducated idiots send Sheila Jackson Lee into Congress year after year is clearly not the answer. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:45:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All the suggestions have included disenfranchisement. A concept I find incompatible with American values as I know own them. .... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Several suggestions for earning citizenship have been made, you have dismissed them all and yet offer nothing in their place. My suggestion is that one must take two tests every 7 years and we should all be naturalized citizens or resident aliens. Those tests should be on the Constitution, both Federal and State and require an 80% passing rate. If you can't pass the tests you're not a citizen, if you're not a citizen you can't vote or serve in the government at all, from garbage man to president. All the suggestions have included disenfranchisement. A concept I find incompatible with American values as I know own them. .... Then your "findings' of what is "compatible" are simply ill -considered. Should children vote? How about those adjudicated mentally incapable. How about felons? Resident aliens? The dead? Cattle? ALL societies that HAVE the franchise restrict it to a greater or lessor degree. The numbers of votes aren't important. The quality is. Our problems stem from too many low-quality votes diluting the effect of higher quality votes. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 5:47:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The book preaches that government is the true power. It was very quasi fascist. It is a great read and makes one think. But the premise that it was a government founded by vets and designed to benefit vets is a slap in the face. Yes, I know that anyone can serve and gain citizenship. Even a wheelchair bound deaf mute that is a cripple and has the mental capacity of cheese can serve as a test subject for radiation exposure and gain citizenship. But it takes away the idea that everyone is born free and with equal rights. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Voting is not a right. It is a qualified privilege. Why would you think it is a right? |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:06:35 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because that's how the Constitution is supposed to work. Why do you hate Freedom bro? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Because that's how the Constitution is supposed to work. Why do you hate Freedom bro? Quote the relevant part. MY Constitution says that the States get to set voting requirements, with the exception that they cannot restrict it based on race or prevent anyone over the age of 18 from voting in federal elections. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:08:18 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, as I mentioned earlier John Kerry pretty much proves that military service doesn't equate to social responsibility. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. No doubt. Anyone who thinks this has never had to deal with S-1. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier John Kerry pretty much proves that military service doesn't equate to social responsibility. No system is perfect. One example isn't cause to junk the theory. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:12:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Many here that claim to love Freedom and Liberty only do so for themselves and their selected others. They don't want it for everyone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In this thread, we see that it is human nature for many to want to disenfranchise "others." It's just a question of who will be disenfranchised, for what reasons, to what degree, and through what mechanism. Voting is neither a freedom, nor a liberty. it is a qualified privilege. Words mean things. |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:14:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FIFY
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC federal service as a whole. FIFY
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. Are you under the delusion that the story was supposed to be an exhaustive examination of the theoretical society therein?
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:18:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem was the book glorified military service as the ultimate form of service for citizenship. It is. What would George Patton say to that premise? Or John Paul Jones? Chesty Puller? Curtis Lemay? |
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Posted: 3/28/2016 6:22:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is. What would George Patton say to that premise? Or John Paul Jones? Chesty Puller? Curtis Lemay? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The problem was the book glorified military service as the ultimate form of service for citizenship. It is. What would George Patton say to that premise? Or John Paul Jones? Chesty Puller? Curtis Lemay? Just because someone wore a uniform doesn't make them pure. |
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