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Posted: 3/26/2016 11:44:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Pournelle was more prescient, as much as I love Heinlein.
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Posted: 3/26/2016 11:47:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He didn't see the future. He just understood human nature. This is pretty much the correct answer. A lot of the future science in Heinlein's stories (especially concerning computers) was just wrong. I recall stories where the protagonists had to spend hours slaving over critical equations and/or having to take morphine injections to remain lucid. Others, like Stranger or All You Zombies, that dealt almost exclusively with the human condition while using future tech held up much better. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 12:00:06 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Net taxes to vote, maybe. But even that can be manipulated by government valuation of your benefits, and could create a voting class of only the richest. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 12:00:36 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In this thread, we see that it is human nature for many to want to disenfranchise "others." It's just a question of who will be disenfranchised, for what reasons, to what degree, and through what mechanism. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 12:40:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd say Bradbury with 451 was probably the most accurate of Heinlein/Orwell/Bradbury future social prediction Trinity Huxley with Brave New World has to be in the running. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 12:53:49 AM EDT
[#6]
Our Future? Youngest daughter is in American Govt., required to graduate. Teacher is in wheelchair and totally dependent on oxygen, can barely be heard or understood 95% of the team.....He "teaches" by showing them endless videos off Huffington Post,
Democrat Underground, and the like.....Just found out this week that the kids will have a competency test to assess what they have learned--so the student teacher had to bring in a workbook that they have three weeks to go over and learn before end of year... I had to give the kids an assessment for the college Govt. and Business Law courses I teach, and most cratered gloriously, but DAMN they love them some Bernie Sanders, because the teacher told them all year how "fair" he would make everything, and that they would get a LOT of free shit.... Long way of saying we live in a society where we can't punish incompetence appropriately, our kids are being taught all kinds of happy bullshit, and our future is bleak. I thought heads were literally going to explode when I told the kids Hilary=Hitler, as both are Socialists, and Bernie=Mao and Stalin, as they are commies.....And in this year or next-these jewels will be VOTERS |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 12:59:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Huxley with Brave New World has to be in the running. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd say Bradbury with 451 was probably the most accurate of Heinlein/Orwell/Bradbury future social prediction Trinity Huxley with Brave New World has to be in the running. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 1:21:53 AM EDT
[#8]
Hell yes. Man was a damned prophet.
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Posted: 3/27/2016 1:45:25 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugates the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugates the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC service as a whole. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 2:02:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC federal service as a whole. FIFY 
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 2:10:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Who he?
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Posted: 3/27/2016 2:11:09 AM EDT
[#12]
I didn't think it was service = citizenship, so much as the franchise, the right to vote.
The theme was bigger then the vote, it was that an item is worth in value what it costs you. I believe he was saying that socialism is a dead idea in that you never value a gift or handout as much as the fruits of your labor. His analogy that if you run ina race and finish last, but get a blue ribbon, then it has no value. All Americans are given the right to vote and most dont value it. 93 million people were, for free, given the right to vote in 2012, and didn't bother. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 2:12:57 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FIFY
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC federal service as a whole. FIFY
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. Citizens are people who joined the Federal Service and were honorably discharged and given franchise. Joining the Federal Service does not necessarily mean the military, and applicants may be assigned to any field where they sacrifice their time and effort for the Federation (Teaching, any of the civil services, experimental test subjects, etc), though military service is the most glorified. It all falls under Federal Service. http://starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Citizen |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 2:24:10 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Citizens are people who joined the Federal Service and were honorably discharged and given franchise. Joining the Federal Service does not necessarily mean the military, and applicants may be assigned to any field where they sacrifice their time and effort for the Federation (Teaching, any of the civil services, experimental test subjects, etc), though military service is the most glorified. It all falls under Federal Service. http://starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Citizen Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC federal service as a whole. FIFY
But sure, saying military service as apposed to federal service is such a big diffence given he spent the entire book following Rico's military career. Can you come up with one example used in the book of federal service , off the top of you head, that wasn't in the military? As far as I can remember the only examples he used were military. Citizens are people who joined the Federal Service and were honorably discharged and given franchise. Joining the Federal Service does not necessarily mean the military, and applicants may be assigned to any field where they sacrifice their time and effort for the Federation (Teaching, any of the civil services, experimental test subjects, etc), though military service is the most glorified. It all falls under Federal Service. http://starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Citizen Great, but where did he show any of those in the book? |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 3:32:24 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, because if it's a good idea to limit the franchise to only those who "understand how their government works," maybe it would be an even better idea to limit it further to only those who have advanced understanding of human interactions. Say, people with advanced degrees in sociology. From the right universities, of course. Let's face it, as you point out, any coarse brute can qualify under your system. Shouldn't we aspire to be an enlightened beacon for the masses in the rest of the world? Rather than meaningless historical trivia, those who can vote should really be paragons of group dynamics. Maybe a ruling council of our best and brightest...that sounds good. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Again your desire for the equality of outcome displays the marks of socialism. Our Republic is about the the equality of opportunity. Oh look you've resorted to calling me a socialist.  <--- my shocked face. But where have I have I talked about equality of outcome or any other socialist idea? Here's a clue; I haven't. I've said that denying suffrage is oppression.
How does one have equality of opportunity if they have no voice in their own governance? No, I said that your opinion displayed the marks of socialism. I say this to you because I believe you are unaware of it. And what has been suggested is not denying suffrage. Yet our Founding Fathers denied suffrage no less than some of these suggestions. If you wanted to vote you had to buy land. Question: Why should suffrage be free? Answer: It's not. It's paid for in blood. Paid by the previous generation, or by others of the current generation. All I want to do is make the person accruing the benefit be the one who pays the cost for it. Equality of opportunity is, or was, the hallmark of our society. Yet you push ceaselessly for the equality of outcome, regardless of what the person has done to put into the system. Why do you think the bar is set too high if a prospective citizen is required to learn the forms of our government prior to taking part in it? The equality of opportunity is that anyone can become a citizen if they choose to. Contrast that with equality of outcome where everyone is a citizen based on the accident (or, in the case of anchor babies, not) of the geographical location of their birth. Well, because if it's a good idea to limit the franchise to only those who "understand how their government works," maybe it would be an even better idea to limit it further to only those who have advanced understanding of human interactions. Say, people with advanced degrees in sociology. From the right universities, of course. Let's face it, as you point out, any coarse brute can qualify under your system. Shouldn't we aspire to be an enlightened beacon for the masses in the rest of the world? Rather than meaningless historical trivia, those who can vote should really be paragons of group dynamics. Maybe a ruling council of our best and brightest...that sounds good. Why would studying something other than the principles of our government be required? Wouldn't an unbiased study of history and historical governments from classical times on would be a much better field than human interaction? But, as I have stated repeatedly, the idea is to limit the franchise to those who want it, as showing by demonstrating their understanding of our government. Who's freedom does this limit? By the way, calling the founding document of our government "meaningless historical trivia" is sheer buffoonery. The Constitution is the highest law in the land. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 3:34:14 AM EDT
[#16]
He was a stranger in a strange land.
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Posted: 3/27/2016 3:36:29 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He was a stranger in a strange land. Was he so strange that land was strange to him? |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:01:24 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would studying something other than the principles of our government be required? Wouldn't an unbiased study of history and historical governments from classical times on would be a much better field than human interaction? But, as I have stated repeatedly, the idea is to limit the franchise to those who want it, as showing by demonstrating their understanding of our government. Who's freedom does this limit? By the way, calling the founding document of our government "meaningless historical trivia" is sheer buffoonery. The Constitution is the highest law in the land. That not how it has ever worked. You should really look into how poll taxes and literacy test were used in the past before you start espousing their value. I for one have no desire to repeat the sins and failures of my grandparents. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:19:36 AM EDT
[#19]
I want to know more.
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:47:21 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That not how it has ever worked. You should really look into how poll taxes and literacy test were used in the past before you start espousing their value. I for one have no desire to repeat the sins and failures of my grandparents. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why would studying something other than the principles of our government be required? Wouldn't an unbiased study of history and historical governments from classical times on would be a much better field than human interaction? But, as I have stated repeatedly, the idea is to limit the franchise to those who want it, as showing by demonstrating their understanding of our government. Who's freedom does this limit? By the way, calling the founding document of our government "meaningless historical trivia" is sheer buffoonery. The Constitution is the highest law in the land. That not how it has ever worked. You should really look into how poll taxes and literacy test were used in the past before you start espousing their value. I for one have no desire to repeat the sins and failures of my grandparents. Yes, I do understand that poll taxes and literacy tests were used to repress the former slave vote just after the War Between the States and up until the 1960s. That time is long passed. What I am wanting is an end to birthright citizenship. You pass a test on the Constitution, a test not unlike a current IT certification test. Have a 125 question test with random questions from a 1,000 question pool. Take that once a decade to maintain your citizenship. Teach the Constitution in K-12 so that anyone who wants to be a citizen can take and pass the test on their 21st birthday. Naturalized citizens are, by and large, far more responsible voters than not. US citizenship is a precious thing, why should it be given away for free? |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:54:35 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I do understand that poll taxes and literacy tests were used to repress the former slave vote just after the War Between the States and up until the 1960s. That time is long passedWhat I am wanting is an end to birthright citizenship. You pass a test on the Constitution, a test not unlike a current IT certification test. Have a 125 question test with random questions from a 1,000 question pool. Take that once a decade to maintain your citizenship. Teach the Constitution in K-12 so that anyone who wants to be a citizen can take and pass the test on their 21st birthday. Naturalized citizens are, by and large, far more responsible voters than not. US citizenship is a precious thing, why should it be given away for free? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why would studying something other than the principles of our government be required? Wouldn't an unbiased study of history and historical governments from classical times on would be a much better field than human interaction? But, as I have stated repeatedly, the idea is to limit the franchise to those who want it, as showing by demonstrating their understanding of our government. Who's freedom does this limit? By the way, calling the founding document of our government "meaningless historical trivia" is sheer buffoonery. The Constitution is the highest law in the land. That not how it has ever worked. You should really look into how poll taxes and literacy test were used in the past before you start espousing their value. I for one have no desire to repeat the sins and failures of my grandparents. Yes, I do understand that poll taxes and literacy tests were used to repress the former slave vote just after the War Between the States and up until the 1960s. That time is long passedWhat I am wanting is an end to birthright citizenship. You pass a test on the Constitution, a test not unlike a current IT certification test. Have a 125 question test with random questions from a 1,000 question pool. Take that once a decade to maintain your citizenship. Teach the Constitution in K-12 so that anyone who wants to be a citizen can take and pass the test on their 21st birthday. Naturalized citizens are, by and large, far more responsible voters than not. US citizenship is a precious thing, why should it be given away for free? 
Yeah, no one would never oppress others in this day and age, right?
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Posted: 3/27/2016 8:52:47 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC service as a whole. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugates the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. You obviously never read the book. It wasn't just MILITARY service, but PUBLIC service as a whole. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 9:02:55 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, I do understand that poll taxes and literacy tests were used to repress the former slave vote just after the War Between the States and up until the 1960s. That time is long passed. What I am wanting is an end to birthright citizenship. You pass a test on the Constitution, a test not unlike a current IT certification test. Have a 125 question test with random questions from a 1,000 question pool. Take that once a decade to maintain your citizenship. Teach the Constitution in K-12 so that anyone who wants to be a citizen can take and pass the test on their 21st birthday. Naturalized citizens are, by and large, far more responsible voters than not. US citizenship is a precious thing, why should it be given away for free? American Samoa is noted for having the highest rate of military enlistment of any U.S. state or territory. As of September 9, 2014, the local U.S. Army Recruiting Station in Pago Pago was ranked first in production out of the 885 Army recruiting stations and centers under the United States Army Recruiting Command (USAREC), which includes the 50 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, Korea, Japan, and Europe. Yet under your idea.... they're still second class citizens. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 9:40:54 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Podkayne Of Mars: Podkayne is an interesting book; kind of transitional between the juveniles and his adult novels, his only female POV character. She's going through standard growing pains but her younger teen brother is a surprisingly ruthless genius who is considering a career in nuclear terrorism, and the kids are being targeted by enemies of her uncle. Ends on a somber note that's not at all happily ever after. And, of course, there's a whiff of incest. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Podkayne Of Mars: [Uncle Tom, Ambassador of Mars] sighed. "But you don't understand. Politics is not evil; politics is the human race's most magnificent achievement. When politics is good, it's wonderful, and when politics is bad-well, it's still pretty good."
"I guess I don't understand," [Podkayne] said slowly. "Think about it. Politics is just a name for the way we get things done ... without fighting. We dicker and compromise and everybody thinks he has received a raw deal, but somehow after a tedious amount of talk we come up with some jury-rigged way to do it without getting anybody's head bashed in. That's politics. The only other way to settle a dispute is by bashing a few heads in ... and that is what happens when one or both sides is no longer willing to dicker. That's why I say politics is good even when it is bad because the only alternative is force-and somebody gets hurt." "Uh ... it seems to me that's a funny way for a revolutionary veteran to talk. From what I've heard, Uncle Tom, you were one of the bloodthirsty ones who started the shooting. Or so Daddy says." He grinned. "Mostly I ducked. If dickering won't work, then you have to fight. But I think maybe it takes a man who has been shot at to appreciate how much better it is to fumble your way through a political compromise rather than have the top of your head blown off." He frowned and suddenly looked very old. "When to talk and when to fight- That is the most difficult decision to make wisely of all the decisions in life." Then suddenly he smiled and the years dropped away. "Mankind didn't invent fighting; it was here long before we were. But we invented politics. Just think of it, hon- Homo sapiens is the most cruel, the most vicious, the most predatory, and certainly the most deadly of all the animals in this solar system. Yet he invented politics! He figured out a way to let most of us, most of the time, get along well enough so that we usually don't kill each other. So don't let me hear you using 'politics' as a swear word again." Podkayne is an interesting book; kind of transitional between the juveniles and his adult novels, his only female POV character. She's going through standard growing pains but her younger teen brother is a surprisingly ruthless genius who is considering a career in nuclear terrorism, and the kids are being targeted by enemies of her uncle. Ends on a somber note that's not at all happily ever after. And, of course, there's a whiff of incest. There's often a whiff of incest in his books. That's also not the only book he wrote from a female POV. I Will Fear No Evil was about a billionaire whose brain was transplanted into the body of a woman. Over time, due to hormones, he became a woman. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 12:17:04 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pournelle was more prescient, as much as I love Heinlein. Yes and No...his Co-Dominium stuff was a direct response to the Cold war, once that was over the conditions that would have created the CoDo evaporated. he has a pretty good essay on that at the end of the new editions of West of Honor |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 12:20:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's often a whiff of incest in his books. That's also not the only book he wrote from a female POV. I Will Fear No Evil was about a billionaire whose brain was transplanted into the body of a woman. Over time, due to hormones, he became a woman. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Podkayne Of Mars: [Uncle Tom, Ambassador of Mars] sighed. "But you don't understand. Politics is not evil; politics is the human race's most magnificent achievement. When politics is good, it's wonderful, and when politics is bad-well, it's still pretty good."
"I guess I don't understand," [Podkayne] said slowly. "Think about it. Politics is just a name for the way we get things done ... without fighting. We dicker and compromise and everybody thinks he has received a raw deal, but somehow after a tedious amount of talk we come up with some jury-rigged way to do it without getting anybody's head bashed in. That's politics. The only other way to settle a dispute is by bashing a few heads in ... and that is what happens when one or both sides is no longer willing to dicker. That's why I say politics is good even when it is bad because the only alternative is force-and somebody gets hurt." "Uh ... it seems to me that's a funny way for a revolutionary veteran to talk. From what I've heard, Uncle Tom, you were one of the bloodthirsty ones who started the shooting. Or so Daddy says." He grinned. "Mostly I ducked. If dickering won't work, then you have to fight. But I think maybe it takes a man who has been shot at to appreciate how much better it is to fumble your way through a political compromise rather than have the top of your head blown off." He frowned and suddenly looked very old. "When to talk and when to fight- That is the most difficult decision to make wisely of all the decisions in life." Then suddenly he smiled and the years dropped away. "Mankind didn't invent fighting; it was here long before we were. But we invented politics. Just think of it, hon- Homo sapiens is the most cruel, the most vicious, the most predatory, and certainly the most deadly of all the animals in this solar system. Yet he invented politics! He figured out a way to let most of us, most of the time, get along well enough so that we usually don't kill each other. So don't let me hear you using 'politics' as a swear word again." Podkayne is an interesting book; kind of transitional between the juveniles and his adult novels, his only female POV character. She's going through standard growing pains but her younger teen brother is a surprisingly ruthless genius who is considering a career in nuclear terrorism, and the kids are being targeted by enemies of her uncle. Ends on a somber note that's not at all happily ever after. And, of course, there's a whiff of incest. There's often a whiff of incest in his books. That's also not the only book he wrote from a female POV. I Will Fear No Evil was about a billionaire whose brain was transplanted into the body of a woman. Over time, due to hormones, he became a woman. Friday, was from a Females POV, as was To Sail Beyond the Sunset |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 3:00:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would studying something other than the principles of our government be required? Wouldn't an unbiased study of history and historical governments from classical times on would be a much better field than human interaction? But, as I have stated repeatedly, the idea is to limit the franchise to those who want it, as showing by demonstrating their understanding of our government. Who's freedom does this limit? By the way, calling the founding document of our government "meaningless historical trivia" is sheer buffoonery. The Constitution is the highest law in the land. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Again your desire for the equality of outcome displays the marks of socialism. Our Republic is about the the equality of opportunity. Oh look you've resorted to calling me a socialist. <--- my shocked face. But where have I have I talked about equality of outcome or any other socialist idea? Here's a clue; I haven't. I've said that denying suffrage is oppression.
How does one have equality of opportunity if they have no voice in their own governance? No, I said that your opinion displayed the marks of socialism. I say this to you because I believe you are unaware of it. And what has been suggested is not denying suffrage. Yet our Founding Fathers denied suffrage no less than some of these suggestions. If you wanted to vote you had to buy land. Question: Why should suffrage be free? Answer: It's not. It's paid for in blood. Paid by the previous generation, or by others of the current generation. All I want to do is make the person accruing the benefit be the one who pays the cost for it. Equality of opportunity is, or was, the hallmark of our society. Yet you push ceaselessly for the equality of outcome, regardless of what the person has done to put into the system. Why do you think the bar is set too high if a prospective citizen is required to learn the forms of our government prior to taking part in it? The equality of opportunity is that anyone can become a citizen if they choose to. Contrast that with equality of outcome where everyone is a citizen based on the accident (or, in the case of anchor babies, not) of the geographical location of their birth. Well, because if it's a good idea to limit the franchise to only those who "understand how their government works," maybe it would be an even better idea to limit it further to only those who have advanced understanding of human interactions. Say, people with advanced degrees in sociology. From the right universities, of course. Let's face it, as you point out, any coarse brute can qualify under your system. Shouldn't we aspire to be an enlightened beacon for the masses in the rest of the world? Rather than meaningless historical trivia, those who can vote should really be paragons of group dynamics. Maybe a ruling council of our best and brightest...that sounds good. Why would studying something other than the principles of our government be required? Wouldn't an unbiased study of history and historical governments from classical times on would be a much better field than human interaction? But, as I have stated repeatedly, the idea is to limit the franchise to those who want it, as showing by demonstrating their understanding of our government. Who's freedom does this limit? By the way, calling the founding document of our government "meaningless historical trivia" is sheer buffoonery. The Constitution is the highest law in the land. You propose one limitation. If limitations are acceptable, why stop there? Surely we could do better? Or only your limitation will be considered? Are you familiar with the road to hell? Personally, I prefer that the franchise be extended to the maximum number with no restriction. Anything else is just arguing who the slaves will be. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 3:21:16 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You propose one limitation. If limitations are acceptable, why stop there? Surely we could do better? Or only your limitation will be considered? Are you familiar with the road to hell? Personally, I prefer that the franchise be extended to the maximum number with no restriction. Anything else is just arguing who the slaves will be. you already accept several restrictions, namely age, citizenship, and incarceration. why don't we allow 13-year-olds to vote? why don't we allow prison inmates to vote? why don't we allow noncitizens to vote? all of these policies boil down to a threshold of awareness, alignment of interests, and investment in society. you're operating on exactly the same presumptions--just drawing the line in a different place. so don't delude yourself. you're in favor of restrictions. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 3:32:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think many forget the latter point. Not all service was in the Military. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugates the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. I think many forget the latter point. Not all service was in the Military. Testing survival equipment on Pluto was a job choice in the novel. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 4:03:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You want American Samoa then.... they are US Nationals and must apply for US Citizenship just like every legal immigrant. Do you know which Political Party wants to keep it that way? The Democrats. Same with the issue of Puerto Rico becoming a State. The GOP pushes for them becoming a State and the Democrats want them to stay as a colony. The GOP pushes for American Samoans to be US Citizens since they have fought, bled, and died for this country since 1899. American Samoa is noted for having the highest rate of military enlistment of any U.S. state or territory. As of September 9, 2014, the local U.S. Army Recruiting Station in Pago Pago was ranked first in production out of the 885 Army recruiting stations and centers under the United States Army Recruiting Command (USAREC), which includes the 50 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, Korea, Japan, and Europe. Yet under your idea.... they're still second class citizens. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yes, I do understand that poll taxes and literacy tests were used to repress the former slave vote just after the War Between the States and up until the 1960s. That time is long passed. What I am wanting is an end to birthright citizenship. You pass a test on the Constitution, a test not unlike a current IT certification test. Have a 125 question test with random questions from a 1,000 question pool. Take that once a decade to maintain your citizenship. Teach the Constitution in K-12 so that anyone who wants to be a citizen can take and pass the test on their 21st birthday. Naturalized citizens are, by and large, far more responsible voters than not. US citizenship is a precious thing, why should it be given away for free? American Samoa is noted for having the highest rate of military enlistment of any U.S. state or territory. As of September 9, 2014, the local U.S. Army Recruiting Station in Pago Pago was ranked first in production out of the 885 Army recruiting stations and centers under the United States Army Recruiting Command (USAREC), which includes the 50 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, Palau, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, Korea, Japan, and Europe. Yet under your idea.... they're still second class citizens. Good info, very interesting, thanks! And under my idea EVERYONE is a legal resident, including me, until they demonstrate the desire to be a citizen. There are no "second class citizens", you would be a citizen or not. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 4:30:37 PM EDT
[#31]
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There wasn't a poll test. There was a poll tax. And I agree that a poll tax was a horrible Jim Crow "law". Service in some form or solving a simple equation seems eminently democratic. Have you ever seen the reading test many Southern States used to qualify voters back in the day? |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 4:36:08 PM EDT
[#32]
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you already accept several restrictions, namely age, citizenship, and incarceration. why don't we allow 13-year-olds to vote? why don't we allow prison inmates to vote? why don't we allow noncitizens to vote? all of these policies boil down to a threshold of awareness, alignment of interests, and investment in society. you're operating on exactly the same presumptions--just drawing the line in a different place. so don't delude yourself. you're in favor of restrictions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You propose one limitation. If limitations are acceptable, why stop there? Surely we could do better? Or only your limitation will be considered? Are you familiar with the road to hell? Personally, I prefer that the franchise be extended to the maximum number with no restriction. Anything else is just arguing who the slaves will be. you already accept several restrictions, namely age, citizenship, and incarceration. why don't we allow 13-year-olds to vote? why don't we allow prison inmates to vote? why don't we allow noncitizens to vote? all of these policies boil down to a threshold of awareness, alignment of interests, and investment in society. you're operating on exactly the same presumptions--just drawing the line in a different place. so don't delude yourself. you're in favor of restrictions. Actually, I am not "in favor" of the existing restrictions, I simply don't care about them enough to lobby for their change. However, I know what it means when people want to further restrict the franchise, there has never been a shortage of people who would, given the opportunity. It is a dark aspect of human nature that makes one support an idea which places them in the elite. I would oppose that vehemently. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 4:44:18 PM EDT
[#33]
And I'll respond to my own post to say that it is an even darker aspect of human nature that causes other people to accept a system that elevates others over themselves.
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:04:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually, I am not "in favor" of the existing restrictions, I simply don't care about them enough to lobby for their change. However, I know what it means when people want to further restrict the franchise, there has never been a shortage of people who would, given the opportunity. It is a dark aspect of human nature that makes one support an idea which places them in the elite. I would oppose that vehemently. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You propose one limitation. If limitations are acceptable, why stop there? Surely we could do better? Or only your limitation will be considered? Are you familiar with the road to hell? Personally, I prefer that the franchise be extended to the maximum number with no restriction. Anything else is just arguing who the slaves will be. you already accept several restrictions, namely age, citizenship, and incarceration. why don't we allow 13-year-olds to vote? why don't we allow prison inmates to vote? why don't we allow noncitizens to vote? all of these policies boil down to a threshold of awareness, alignment of interests, and investment in society. you're operating on exactly the same presumptions--just drawing the line in a different place. so don't delude yourself. you're in favor of restrictions. Actually, I am not "in favor" of the existing restrictions, I simply don't care about them enough to lobby for their change. However, I know what it means when people want to further restrict the franchise, there has never been a shortage of people who would, given the opportunity. It is a dark aspect of human nature that makes one support an idea which places them in the elite. I would oppose that vehemently. so you believe that children, murderers, and foreigners should be able to vote in US elections? |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:18:29 PM EDT
[#35]
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so you believe that children, murderers, and foreigners should be able to vote in US elections? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You propose one limitation. If limitations are acceptable, why stop there? Surely we could do better? Or only your limitation will be considered? Are you familiar with the road to hell? Personally, I prefer that the franchise be extended to the maximum number with no restriction. Anything else is just arguing who the slaves will be. you already accept several restrictions, namely age, citizenship, and incarceration. why don't we allow 13-year-olds to vote? why don't we allow prison inmates to vote? why don't we allow noncitizens to vote? all of these policies boil down to a threshold of awareness, alignment of interests, and investment in society. you're operating on exactly the same presumptions--just drawing the line in a different place. so don't delude yourself. you're in favor of restrictions. Actually, I am not "in favor" of the existing restrictions, I simply don't care about them enough to lobby for their change. However, I know what it means when people want to further restrict the franchise, there has never been a shortage of people who would, given the opportunity. It is a dark aspect of human nature that makes one support an idea which places them in the elite. I would oppose that vehemently. so you believe that children, murderers, and foreigners should be able to vote in US elections? I would rather expand the franchise to include them than move in the other direction to exclude greater numbers. People choosing not to vote is acceptable. Creating unworkable limitations to the franchise is not. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:23:30 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would rather expand the franchise to include them than move in the other direction to exclude greater numbers. People choosing not to vote is acceptable. Creating unworkable limitations to the franchise is not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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so you believe that children, murderers, and foreigners should be able to vote in US elections? I would rather expand the franchise to include them than move in the other direction to exclude greater numbers. People choosing not to vote is acceptable. Creating unworkable limitations to the franchise is not. why are you dodging the question? |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:26:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Don't get to hung up on the universe of Starship Troopers, if you want to get in to Heinlein's head read his later stuff. He seems to of preferred no government at all, if you must have one an easily replaced total dictator is best, and the last thing you want to do is let someone(s) vote.
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:28:17 PM EDT
[#38]
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why are you dodging the question? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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so you believe that children, murderers, and foreigners should be able to vote in US elections? I would rather expand the franchise to include them than move in the other direction to exclude greater numbers. People choosing not to vote is acceptable. Creating unworkable limitations to the franchise is not. why are you dodging the question? I don't feel strongly enough that they should to work to effect that change. Certainly felons should have all of their rights restored when they are released. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:36:43 PM EDT
[#39]
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The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugates the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugates the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. What really disturbed me was the idea that someone who devoted their entire life to military service, never got to vote. why do people who are one termers get voting rights as soon as they get out, but someone who reups doesn't? The book gave an explanation for that, I can't remember what it was, but at the time I remember thinking the explanation is pants on retarded. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:37:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We tried the whole poll test (or whatever we called it), turns out it's just another way to keep down those who are not liked. I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugated the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. But in any case the act of service demonstrated some skin in the game. He wrote about an even simpler idea about voting. Enter the booth and have, say, 5 minutes to solve a random exponential equation. Not hard to do and demonstrates the ability to think logically. Can't solve it? No vote. We tried the whole poll test (or whatever we called it), turns out it's just another way to keep down those who are not liked. I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. simple, land ownership Does that tickle you're funny bone. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:40:16 PM EDT
[#41]
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Verhoven read bits of the first chapter, stole character names from the Cliff Notes, and that was about the extent of the impact RAH has on the movie Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One of the criticisms during the "Making of Starship Troopers" or whatever, was that the author was a fascist. 
I didn't take that away from the book at all. You had a volunteer military and if you served, you could vote. But it wasn't like the power was only held by a very small group. Verhoven read bits of the first chapter, stole character names from the Cliff Notes, and that was about the extent of the impact RAH has on the movie |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:49:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you aware that the voting franchise was originally restricted by the founding fathers to land-owning men? Were the founding fathers not patriots? Moreover, poll tests and poll taxes don't remove anyone's representation. They allow people the choice to remove their own representation. There are public libraries available to all. Everyone can learn enough to pass a test. Anyone can earn enough money to pay a poll tax if they value having their voice heard above luxuries or indulgences. Refraining from learning and spending your earnings on trivialities are personal choices. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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We tried the whole poll test (or whatever we called it), turns out it's just another way to keep down those who are not liked. I just don't see how any American can think it's ok to remove others representation and then call themselves enlightened, much less a patriot. Are you aware that the voting franchise was originally restricted by the founding fathers to land-owning men? Were the founding fathers not patriots? Moreover, poll tests and poll taxes don't remove anyone's representation. They allow people the choice to remove their own representation. There are public libraries available to all. Everyone can learn enough to pass a test. Anyone can earn enough money to pay a poll tax if they value having their voice heard above luxuries or indulgences. Refraining from learning and spending your earnings on trivialities are personal choices. That is not the way the poll test were administered though. One Person would be asked who is president, another would be asked a college level essay on some obscure state supreme court case that nobody had thought about in 50 years. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 5:52:59 PM EDT
[#43]
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To add to these points, if everyone works at some point for the government... doesn't that sound a little ... familiar ... to anyone else? As in, communism? I'm all for paying taxes being a base-level for people to vote. You should have some "skin in the game", but to mandate national service to be considered a citizen is a mistake. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. Having the FSA vote for Santa Claus is better? The idea that military service will make someone put the state/whole before themselves after service is incredibly naive. It also subjugates the rest of society making them nothing more then the tax base for a ruling class. The aspect that's never mentioned is that service was a guaranteed right. Even mentally defective individuals were found a job, even if it had no value to society. I think many forget the latter point. Not all service was in the Military. To add to these points, if everyone works at some point for the government... doesn't that sound a little ... familiar ... to anyone else? As in, communism? I'm all for paying taxes being a base-level for people to vote. You should have some "skin in the game", but to mandate national service to be considered a citizen is a mistake. Yes, mot people consider starship Troopers to be advancing Fascism, what people don't realize is that Fascism, and Communism, and almost identical in practice. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 6:00:15 PM EDT
[#44]
He didn't foresee them as much as see them.
It is not a modern phenomena, people who think the world is what they believe it is and not reality. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 6:38:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: His service = citizenship idea is fucking retarded. I disagree. You have and have had no skin in the game. What makes you think you should have the same rights as someone who has pledged their blood for your freedom? But I'd go one step further, you should have to pay taxes in order to actually vote. Since anyone making below about $30k a year doesn't pay taxes anyway, they don't get to vote unless they served. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 8:01:18 PM EDT
[#46]
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We are still using media for the main distraction , but would not be shocked if some sort drug rations came about eventually Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd say Bradbury with 451 was probably the most accurate of Heinlein/Orwell/Bradbury future social prediction Trinity Huxley with Brave New World has to be in the running. In High School, I read "Brave New World." In that book, the lower classes were kept in check by "Soma," a drug whose properties were remarkably like marijuana and other "illicit" narcotics. Then I looked at the War On Drugs. I reasoned that, as long as the American Government didn't rely upon Soma, it could not become a totalitarian state. Now we are legalizing Soma marijuana... 
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Posted: 3/27/2016 8:26:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the criticisms during the "Making of Starship Troopers" or whatever, was that the author was a fascist.
I didn't take that away from the book at all. You had a volunteer military and if you served, you could vote. But it wasn't like the power was only held by a very small group. "Facist" is one of those nasty names given by progressives to anyone who advocates a strong military capability. They usually don't know what the word means... thinking that WWII Germany and Italy were "facist" states that started wars with their military might. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 8:38:14 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In High School, I read "Brave New World." In that book, the lower classes were kept in check by "Soma," a drug whose properties were remarkably like marijuana and other "illicit" narcotics. Then I looked at the War On Drugs. I reasoned that, as long as the American Government didn't rely upon Soma, it could not become a totalitarian state. Now we are legalizing Soma marijuana... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'd say Bradbury with 451 was probably the most accurate of Heinlein/Orwell/Bradbury future social prediction Trinity Huxley with Brave New World has to be in the running. In High School, I read "Brave New World." In that book, the lower classes were kept in check by "Soma," a drug whose properties were remarkably like marijuana and other "illicit" narcotics. Then I looked at the War On Drugs. I reasoned that, as long as the American Government didn't rely upon Soma, it could not become a totalitarian state. Now we are legalizing Soma marijuana... Guess after PP selling fetus parts we are probably not that far from tainting people in utero to make a dumb underclass as in BNW |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 11:36:49 PM EDT
[#49]
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That is not the way the poll test were administered though. One Person would be asked who is president, another would be asked a college level essay on some obscure state supreme court case that nobody had thought about in 50 years. His continuing support of Jim Crow laws shows he doesn't even have a basic grasp of history in the US. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 11:51:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Well, good news is that there is a remake for Starship Troopers in the works. Annapurna Pictures is producing it. Said Producers were the ones behind "Killing Them Softly" and "Zero Dark Thirty." They also have voiced complaints that the first film was not true to the novel.
So my hopes are up. I loved the movie, despite it being a farce and ripping on the novel. |
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