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Posted: 10/6/2015 2:31:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The real reason this is being removed is because they decided they didn't want a Baphomet statue on the Capitol steps. And that's how it should be. If someone wants to create laws that allow for religions imagery that should apply to any imagery rather than simply that which agrees with their beliefs. The further removed religion (of all kinds) is from legislation the better for everyone. But I see that sort of reasoning silly. One can see a direct cultural and historical influence of the 10 commandments on the western concept of the law and thus one can see it reasonable to see such iconography in a courthouse as representative of that background just as Roman iconography is present as a nod to the influence Roman law had on our law. One cannot say the same historical thing about neckbeard "Satanists." Ironically, Moses and the Ten Commandments are on frescoes on the Supreme Court. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 2:42:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But I see that sort of reasoning silly. One can see a direct cultural and historical influence of the 10 commandments on the western concept of the law and thus one can see it reasonable to see such iconography in a courthouse as representative of that background just as Roman iconography is present as a nod to the influence Roman law had on our law. One cannot say the same historical thing about neckbeard "Satanists." Ironically, Moses and the Ten Commandments are on frescoes on the Supreme Court. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The real reason this is being removed is because they decided they didn't want a Baphomet statue on the Capitol steps. And that's how it should be. If someone wants to create laws that allow for religions imagery that should apply to any imagery rather than simply that which agrees with their beliefs. The further removed religion (of all kinds) is from legislation the better for everyone. But I see that sort of reasoning silly. One can see a direct cultural and historical influence of the 10 commandments on the western concept of the law and thus one can see it reasonable to see such iconography in a courthouse as representative of that background just as Roman iconography is present as a nod to the influence Roman law had on our law. One cannot say the same historical thing about neckbeard "Satanists." Ironically, Moses and the Ten Commandments are on frescoes on the Supreme Court. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 2:49:06 PM EDT
[#3]
kind of ironic the focus on keeping the Christian Taliban from stoning sinners the same week an atheist executed Christians for their faith.
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Posted: 10/6/2015 2:49:51 PM EDT
[#4]
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Religion sucks, it gets perverted. Christ even despised religion if I recall correctly. Oh they are very much related, though I think religion has little to do with it. Religion gives us things like the Crusades. God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Religion sucks, it gets perverted. Christ even despised religion if I recall correctly. Quoted:
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I'm a Christian and the monument should never have been placed on government property. It is being moved to private property (a conservative think tank), as it should be. The state recently denied the placement of a Satanic memorial, because they didn't want to support Satanism. Doing that made it kind of hard to argue they weren't supporting "any sect, church, denomination or system of religion" with this monument. Showing preferential treatment to one religion over another is verboten and this result was the entire reason the Church of Satan tried to get a monument put up. Had they allowed the monuments to be put up, you could at least maintain plausibility to the claim it wasn't violating the law. By showing a clear preference for Christianity over a minority religion, they made it impossible to keep the display. The Supreme Court saved the state millions in legal fees to fight the lawsuit the Church of Satan was going to bring. It will be funny reading all of the butthurt in this thread though. Carry on. It is the fundamental basis of our law and that is the relevance, though some dismiss that and argue they are unrelated. Oh they are very much related, though I think religion has little to do with it. Religion gives us things like the Crusades. God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. yeah...but Islam is not Christianity or Judaism. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 2:54:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: kind of ironic the focus on keeping the Christian Taliban from stoning sinners the same week an atheist executed Christians for their faith. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 2:56:33 PM EDT
[#6]
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The monument would make decent cover from small arms fire Quote HistoryQuoted:
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kind of ironic the focus on keeping the Christian Taliban from stoning sinners the same week an atheist executed Christians for their faith. If nothing else. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 2:57:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Good. God isn't real.
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:07:25 PM EDT
[#8]
--- Snip ---
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree you have a point, but I think if forced to drink truth serum the people who are always upset about ten commandments type statues have a religious motivation and the stuff about the importance of the ten commandments from a 'western civilization" standpoint is just kind of baloney they say because they can't get away with putting up a big old cross on the lawn and hanging angels from the roof They Know God is real and are just fooling themselves |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:20:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
--- Snip --- They Know God is real and are just fooling themselves Quote HistoryQuoted:
--- Snip --- Quoted:
I agree you have a point, but I think if forced to drink truth serum the people who are always upset about ten commandments type statues have a religious motivation and the stuff about the importance of the ten commandments from a 'western civilization" standpoint is just kind of baloney they say because they can't get away with putting up a big old cross on the lawn and hanging angels from the roof They Know God is real and are just fooling themselves That never made any kind of sense to me. If you know, really know, that god is real, then every possible calculation of self-interest, every fiber of your being, every instinct of self preservation, every odds and hedging of bets, would direct you to be on the side of god. It wouldn't even hurt to fake it a bit or exaggerate the extent of your sincerity. It's only when you don't believe that that other options start making some sense. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:25:32 PM EDT
[#10]
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Yay, another Christian persecution circle jerk when someone makes them obey the law. To what statute are you referring? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:26:38 PM EDT
[#11]
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I believe the Constitution itself is law and our judiciary branch are charged with enforcing it. Which is what happened here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yay, another Christian prosecution circle jerk when someone makes them obey the law. And what law was that? The relevant portion of the Oklahoma Constitution was posted and it is a real stretch to say that this violated that part of the law. It sure as heck does not violate the U.S. Constitution. Of course, if you believe that judges have the power to legislate and amend constitutions... I believe the Constitution itself is law and our judiciary branch are charged with enforcing it. Which is what happened here. What part of the Constitution demands that such a monument needs to be ripped out of the ground? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:33:27 PM EDT
[#12]
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CAIR "carroes a lot of stroke" meaning influence in Oklahoma politics? Color me skeptical  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Trying to remove crosses and commandments statues is mean-spirited and short-sighted, particularly at time when America has never been more secularist. The best part of wisdom is in tolerating each other's delusions. There is a war on the Christian faith in this nation being carried on by the left funded by Saudi money. The left is going to have it stuck up their ass by the Saudis once they win... 
So a minister (Christian sect?) believes it is wrong to have the Ten Commandments on state property? Does he represent the left in it's entirety? Is he a tool being used by some one not known? Saudi money is real strong in Oklahoma. An example - The 9/11 terrorist pilots ((Saudis financed by Saudi royals) received their pilot training in Norman OK, 20 miles south of OKC. CAIR carries a lot of stroke in OKC politics. You think Saudi money doesn't talk even among Christian church leaders? OU President David Boren (ex Governor and US Senator) will squat and whiz if the Saudis tell him too for the money they give OU. The Saudis and CAIR are very careful not to be conspicuous in their purchases and bribery but they are here very strongly in Oklahoma and Texas. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:37:23 PM EDT
[#13]
nah
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:51:40 PM EDT
[#14]
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Pretty much sums up the state of the union right there We are lost. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:53:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That never made any kind of sense to me. If you know, really know, that god is real, then every possible calculation of self-interest, every fiber of your being, every instinct of self preservation, every odds and hedging of bets, would direct you to be on the side of god. It wouldn't even hurt to fake it a bit or exaggerate the extent of your sincerity. It's only when you don't believe that that other options start making some sense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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--- Snip --- Quoted:
I agree you have a point, but I think if forced to drink truth serum the people who are always upset about ten commandments type statues have a religious motivation and the stuff about the importance of the ten commandments from a 'western civilization" standpoint is just kind of baloney they say because they can't get away with putting up a big old cross on the lawn and hanging angels from the roof They Know God is real and are just fooling themselves That never made any kind of sense to me. If you know, really know, that god is real, then every possible calculation of self-interest, every fiber of your being, every instinct of self preservation, every odds and hedging of bets, would direct you to be on the side of god. It wouldn't even hurt to fake it a bit or exaggerate the extent of your sincerity. It's only when you don't believe that that other options start making some sense. You would think so but I have met a number of people over the years who will deny the truth because they don't want to believe it. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 3:57:16 PM EDT
[#16]
I am tired of all this bull sht. Who the fuck cares it was there. I just get tired of the S.J.W. bull shit. I do not go to any church and I saw nothing wrong with it being there.
If I could go back to 1970-1980 you color me gone. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 4:33:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yeah...but Islam is not Christianity or Judaism. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Oh they are very much related, though I think religion has little to do with it. Religion gives us things like the Crusades. God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. yeah...but Islam is not Christianity or Judaism. You understand that Islam evolved from both Christianity and Judaism, right? And that the Crusades were usually Christians vs. Moslems, but sometimes Christians vs. Christians? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 4:50:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You understand that Islam evolved from both Christianity and Judaism, right? And that the Crusades were usually Christians vs. Moslems, but sometimes Christians vs. Christians? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Oh they are very much related, though I think religion has little to do with it. Religion gives us things like the Crusades. God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. yeah...but Islam is not Christianity or Judaism. You understand that Islam evolved from both Christianity and Judaism, right? And that the Crusades were usually Christians vs. Moslems, but sometimes Christians vs. Christians? I do understand you have a liberally warped idea of history. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 5:16:49 PM EDT
[#19]
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I do understand you have a liberally warped idea of history. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Oh they are very much related, though I think religion has little to do with it. Religion gives us things like the Crusades. God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. yeah...but Islam is not Christianity or Judaism. You understand that Islam evolved from both Christianity and Judaism, right? And that the Crusades were usually Christians vs. Moslems, but sometimes Christians vs. Christians? I do understand you have a liberally warped idea of history. No shit, talk about twisted BS |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 6:00:48 PM EDT
[#20]
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The 10 Commandmants, beyond the religious aspects, are a social roadmap that have served a large segment of mankind for multiple millennium. That's all. They're pretty foundational to functioning western society and have stood the test of time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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God's law is out, and the queer law is in. Yay.  I get the jest but there's an important aspect to what's occuring. The 10 Commandments are what, 4,000+ years old? They've served man well. What we see today as "foundational" social mores and laws are really just de jour laws as if they were no real rights and worngs, only feels of the day. That was my argument to a lesbian friend after the SCOTUS marriage ruling....these are dangerous times for a constitutional republic. What does a monument of the Ten Commandments have to do with your concern about social mores? The 10 Commandmants, beyond the religious aspects, are a social roadmap that have served a large segment of mankind for multiple millennium. That's all. They're pretty foundational to functioning western society and have stood the test of time. Beyond the specific Judeo/Christian elements of the commandments (the first four, ie. 40%), the other commandments are fairly common among human culture and religions. Christians and the Ten Commandments do not hold a monopoly or any great claim to morals such as "don't murder, "don't steal," "don't lie," and "don't bang your neighbor's wife." But the question still stands - What does a monument of the Ten Commandments have to do with your concern about social mores? Do you think a random stone statue is the lynchpin to modern social mores? Does taking it down mean society will get worse? To think that this monument's placement is significant to the future of American society requires some sort of conviction that it and its message must be pressed upon the public -- which, in fact, is a government endorsement of a religion. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 6:05:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Christians and the Ten Commandments do not hold a monopoly or any great claim to morals such as "don't murder, "don't steal," "don't lie," and "don't bang your neighbor's wife." and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 6:31:14 PM EDT
[#22]
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Or in some people's view, tolerating the secularist all together. What is one man's delusion, however, is another man's reality. What is truth? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Trying to remove crosses and commandments statues is mean-spirited and short-sighted, particularly at time when America has never been more secularist. The best part of wisdom is in tolerating each other's delusions. Or in some people's view, tolerating the secularist all together. What is one man's delusion, however, is another man's reality. What is truth? Reality is reality. Truth = Objective reality. We're all subjective observers of objective reality, which can already hurt the pursuit of objective truth, there's no need to believe things without good evidence. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 6:38:51 PM EDT
[#23]
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Yay, another Christian persecution circle jerk when someone makes them obey the law. What Law? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 6:41:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Life as we know it has ended. Seriously, I'm sick of hearing about it, and the "In God We Trust" on the Police cars.
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Posted: 10/6/2015 6:49:29 PM EDT
[#25]
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That would be for the people of the state, through their elected representatives to decide. dearborne blasts out the call to prayer everyday. zero fucks given. I don't live in that shit hole. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Would people be this worked up if it had been an Islamic statue? How about Scientologist? That would be for the people of the state, through their elected representatives to decide. dearborne blasts out the call to prayer everyday. zero fucks given. I don't live in that shit hole. No they don't. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 6:58:46 PM EDT
[#26]
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The basis of English common law is the Ten Commandments. English common law is the basis for modern law in this country. They also represent the belief of the majority of Okies. But that doesn't seem to matter... Where is it in our law to worship only one God? I believe the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Hardly sounds like "Thou shall have no other Gods before me". Laws about no graven images? taking the Lord's name in vain? remembering the Sabbath? Honoring thy mother and father? no adultery? no jealousy (covet)? It's not like killing and stealing was a-ok before Judaism/Christianity. The Code of Ur-Nammu (Babylonian) already forbid murder, theft, etc. long before the 10 commandments. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:06:05 PM EDT
[#27]
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and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Christians and the Ten Commandments do not hold a monopoly or any great claim to morals such as "don't murder, "don't steal," "don't lie," and "don't bang your neighbor's wife." and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. Is your statement supposed to be evidence that Christians and the Ten Commandments do hold a monopoly on those morals? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:14:39 PM EDT
[#28]
It wasnt removed because it was a christian monument. it was removed because it violated a Different part of the OK constitution that had to do with public land use.
When that portion is repealed come wither this or next November. It will be back. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:18:14 PM EDT
[#29]
Religion has no place in government. Period. If you disagree, you don't support freedom of religion which was one of the founding principles of this country.
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:19:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What Law? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yay, another Christian persecution circle jerk when someone makes them obey the law. What Law? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:20:42 PM EDT
[#31]
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Ever hear of the New Testament? Christians do not live by the Old Testament, Jew's and some others do. Christians do not. Which opens a whole other off topic can of worms, which if you want to discuss should be done so in another thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. When was the last time you stoned someone who worked on the Sabbath? Ever hear of the New Testament? Christians do not live by the Old Testament, Jew's and some others do. Christians do not. Which opens a whole other off topic can of worms, which if you want to discuss should be done so in another thread. Hooray for cherrypicking! |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:22:21 PM EDT
[#32]
Im filled with a big bunch of meh.
Victimhood has no bounds. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:26:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reality is reality. Truth = Objective reality. We're all subjective observers of objective reality, which can already hurt the pursuit of objective truth, there's no need to believe things without good evidence. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Trying to remove crosses and commandments statues is mean-spirited and short-sighted, particularly at time when America has never been more secularist. The best part of wisdom is in tolerating each other's delusions. Or in some people's view, tolerating the secularist all together. What is one man's delusion, however, is another man's reality. What is truth? Reality is reality. Truth = Objective reality. We're all subjective observers of objective reality, which can already hurt the pursuit of objective truth, there's no need to believe things without good evidence. So? I see no, "objective truth," in Darwinism. Gap science holds very few answers that I seek. Likewise, the Spirit of God holds no revelation and knowledge for you, or so you say. I have no problem with your views. But, can you honestly say the same about mine? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:27:29 PM EDT
[#34]
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and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Christians and the Ten Commandments do not hold a monopoly or any great claim to morals such as "don't murder, "don't steal," "don't lie," and "don't bang your neighbor's wife." and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. Hmmm. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:28:11 PM EDT
[#35]
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Hooray for cherrypicking! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. When was the last time you stoned someone who worked on the Sabbath? Ever hear of the New Testament? Christians do not live by the Old Testament, Jew's and some others do. Christians do not. Which opens a whole other off topic can of worms, which if you want to discuss should be done so in another thread. Hooray for cherrypicking! Cherry picking what? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:30:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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Christians and the Ten Commandments do not hold a monopoly or any great claim to morals such as "don't murder, "don't steal," "don't lie," and "don't bang your neighbor's wife." and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. Hmmm. Hmmm link huh? 
What does it contain? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:33:49 PM EDT
[#37]
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You understand that Islam evolved from both Christianity and Judaism, right? And that the Crusades were usually Christians vs. Moslems, but sometimes Christians vs. Christians? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Oh they are very much related, though I think religion has little to do with it. Religion gives us things like the Crusades. God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. yeah...but Islam is not Christianity or Judaism. You understand that Islam evolved from both Christianity and Judaism, right? And that the Crusades were usually Christians vs. Moslems, but sometimes Christians vs. Christians? Plus there's the slaughter of Jews by crusaders in Europe as a "warm up." |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:34:03 PM EDT
[#38]
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Cherry picking what? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... God/Christ gives us teachings that show us how to behave. When was the last time you stoned someone who worked on the Sabbath? Ever hear of the New Testament? Christians do not live by the Old Testament, Jew's and some others do. Christians do not. Which opens a whole other off topic can of worms, which if you want to discuss should be done so in another thread. Hooray for cherrypicking! Cherry picking what? Really? Christians don't live by the Old Testament, but Christians live by the Ten Commandments. Jesus Tapdancing Christ. Try being consistent. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:34:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Looks like the beginning of another 50 page bible thumper thread ...
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:35:32 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Oklahoma constitution which prohibits the use of public property for the support of religion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yay, another Christian persecution circle jerk when someone makes them obey the law. What Law? I guess that's why the Pope didn't speak there on his trip. He did at the White House however, and Congress. I didn't see squat about separation of church and state yatta yatta that week. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:36:10 PM EDT
[#41]
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Looks like the beginning of another 50 page bible thumper thread ... Would this offend you? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:36:50 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Christians and the Ten Commandments do not hold a monopoly or any great claim to morals such as "don't murder, "don't steal," "don't lie," and "don't bang your neighbor's wife." and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. LOL. Yeah, they have similar moral proclamations. In fact, fucking everybody does. There's a difference between those rules and practice. But that wouldn't fit your agenda. Slither on, brah. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:39:18 PM EDT
[#43]
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LOL. Yeah, they have similar moral proclamations. In fact, fucking everybody does. There's a difference between those rules and practice. But that wouldn't fit your agenda. Slither on, brah. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Christians and the Ten Commandments do not hold a monopoly or any great claim to morals such as "don't murder, "don't steal," "don't lie," and "don't bang your neighbor's wife." and thats how I know you have never spent significant time in africa or the middle east. LOL. Yeah, they have similar moral proclamations. In fact, fucking everybody does. There's a difference between those rules and practice. But that wouldn't fit your agenda. Slither on, brah. Who are they? Cite please. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:46:10 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would this offend you? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Looks like the beginning of another 50 page bible thumper thread ... Would this offend you? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:49:36 PM EDT
[#45]
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Yes. There is a religion forum on arfcom, you can do your thumping in there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Looks like the beginning of another 50 page bible thumper thread ... Would this offend you? So your saying that a well respected Site Staff member should take his thread to the RF? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:49:45 PM EDT
[#46]
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Who are they? Cite please. Um, "they?" Do you mean the other peoples/religions of the world who also have rules about morality? Are you kidding? Dude, time to get the fuck out of the bubble. This is shit I learned in high school if not earlier... |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:51:43 PM EDT
[#47]
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Um, "they?" Do you mean the other peoples/religions of the world who also have rules about morality? Are you kidding? Dude, time to get the fuck out of the bubble. This is shit I learned in high school if not earlier... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Who are they? Cite please. Um, "they?" Do you mean the other peoples/religions of the world who also have rules about morality? Are you kidding? Dude, time to get the fuck out of the bubble. This is shit I learned in high school if not earlier... Really? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:52:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So your saying that a well respected Site Staff member should take his thread to the RF? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Looks like the beginning of another 50 page bible thumper thread ... Would this offend you? So your saying that a well respected Site Staff member should take his thread to the RF? |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:58:36 PM EDT
[#49]
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The Oklahoma constitution which prohibits the use of public property for the support of religion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yay, another Christian persecution circle jerk when someone makes them obey the law. What Law? When the Oklahoma constitution was written it meant the support of one denomination such as Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc. it had nothing to do with Christianity vs Judaism vs Buddhist, etc. In 1907 it was more to keep the Baptists from running state government. |
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Posted: 10/6/2015 7:58:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Clear enough.
Thank you. 
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