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Posted: 11/23/2014 9:18:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I post my opinion on this issue I'll get teh banhammer.  really? PM me your opinion, I'm not sure how an opinion on this could get you a ban? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 9:22:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy crap but there is a lot of Latin in that first letter! I see a lot of discussion on English Common Law not being founded on Biblical principles. It looks like a classic example of someone taking something out of context and lots of other people quoting that as their reason for stating the "fact". I was surprised ot see Blackstone included in that list. Could you help me out where he goes on to say that our country was based on English Common Law? I didn't really see that spelled out in there. I did see a lot of discussion in letter #2 talking about natural rights, rights fromnthe creator ond rights written on our hearts. Thanks again, There is a good bit in there to digest! Yeah, thank God for google. My latin (which was never very good) has atrophied since my school days. its not spelled out per se He's responding to the claim that Christianity is the basis for the common law, which is basis for our legal system, and therefore we were founded on Christian principles. In refuting the Christian basis of common law, he refutes the follow on arguments as well. Again, i'm sure TJ would admit that Christianity had a massive influence on us (as it has every other western nation), but that is a different issue. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 9:23:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: really? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If I post my opinion on this issue I'll get teh banhammer. really? PM me your opinion, I'm not sure how an opinion on this could get you a ban? That board is the same bunch of retards that kept trying to get creationism jammed into science classes. Creationism is popular here. Feelz would be negatively impacted. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 9:25:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't forget the influence of the disasterous English 17th century and the collective memory of the English Civil War and Oliver Cromwell. The founders had good reasons to be wary of an official state religion. I suspect this had more influence on the founders thinking than Moses. Like most things, it's complicated. Of course the dominant religion of the western world had an impact on the founders and what they created. The Enlightenment also had a huge impact, particularly in terms of those things that made us different from Europe. It was a unique time in history, post-Enlightenment and pre-Darwin. Most everything was up for debate which is why so many of the founders were so colorful, particularly when it comes to religion. In OPs defense "Moses as founding father" wasn't his characterization, he just repeated it to stir shit. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 9:30:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm gonna guess English common law. What do I win? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 9:31:44 PM EDT
[#6]
You guys are easy to troll.
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Posted: 11/23/2014 9:33:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, thank God for google. My latin (which was never very good) has atrophied since my school days. its not spelled out per se He's responding to the claim that Christianity is the basis for the common law, which is basis for our legal system, and therefore we were founded on Christian principles. In refuting the Christian basis of common law, he refutes the follow on arguments as well. Again, i'm sure TJ would admit that Christianity had a massive influence on us (as it has every other western nation), but that is a different issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Holy crap but there is a lot of Latin in that first letter! I see a lot of discussion on English Common Law not being founded on Biblical principles. It looks like a classic example of someone taking something out of context and lots of other people quoting that as their reason for stating the "fact". I was surprised ot see Blackstone included in that list. Could you help me out where he goes on to say that our country was based on English Common Law? I didn't really see that spelled out in there. I did see a lot of discussion in letter #2 talking about natural rights, rights fromnthe creator ond rights written on our hearts. Thanks again, There is a good bit in there to digest! Yeah, thank God for google. My latin (which was never very good) has atrophied since my school days. its not spelled out per se He's responding to the claim that Christianity is the basis for the common law, which is basis for our legal system, and therefore we were founded on Christian principles. In refuting the Christian basis of common law, he refutes the follow on arguments as well. Again, i'm sure TJ would admit that Christianity had a massive influence on us (as it has every other western nation), but that is a different issue. That is a very interesting difference, and one I am going to have to ponder a bit. What is your take on all of what coldair was posting? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 9:54:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a very interesting difference, and one I am going to have to ponder a bit. What is your take on all of what coldair was posting? He's pointing out the contributions Christians have made, but he misses the point. Of course Christianity influenced the United States, but none of his "evidence" shows that it was founded as a Christian nation or based upon Christian principles. The vast majority of those Christian men made a conscious decision NOT to set up a Christian government. We have some laws that are the same, but you can find a tribe in South America that has never seen a Christian and they will have laws against murder, theft, etc.. Had the founding fathers wanted to setup a theocracy, they could have. They chose to set up a country with no state religion and forbade religious tests for office. Our makeup still means Christians hold most offices and its more difficult for a religious minority to get elected, but in theory we could have a Muslim, Jewish, or atheist president. It will be interesting as Catholics become a larger and larger voting block and how it changes our politics. I think a lot of fundamentalists are going to be very unhappy as that develops. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 10:00:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's pointing out the contributions Christians have made, but he misses the point. Of course Christianity influenced the United States, but none of his "evidence" shows that it was founded as a Christian nation or based upon Christian principles. The vast majority of those Christian men made a conscious decision NOT to set up a Christian government. We have some laws that are the same, but you can find a tribe in South America that has never seen a Christian and they will have laws against murder, theft, etc.. Had the founding fathers wanted to setup a theocracy, they could have. They chose to set up a country with no state religion and forbade religious tests for office. Our makeup still means Christians hold most offices and its more difficult for a religious minority to get elected, but in theory we could have a Muslim, Jewish, or atheist president. It will be interesting as Catholics become a larger and larger voting block and how it changes our politics. I think a lot of fundamentalists are going to be very unhappy as that develops. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That is a very interesting difference, and one I am going to have to ponder a bit. What is your take on all of what coldair was posting? He's pointing out the contributions Christians have made, but he misses the point. Of course Christianity influenced the United States, but none of his "evidence" shows that it was founded as a Christian nation or based upon Christian principles. The vast majority of those Christian men made a conscious decision NOT to set up a Christian government. We have some laws that are the same, but you can find a tribe in South America that has never seen a Christian and they will have laws against murder, theft, etc.. Had the founding fathers wanted to setup a theocracy, they could have. They chose to set up a country with no state religion and forbade religious tests for office. Our makeup still means Christians hold most offices and its more difficult for a religious minority to get elected, but in theory we could have a Muslim, Jewish, or atheist president. It will be interesting as Catholics become a larger and larger voting block and how it changes our politics. I think a lot of fundamentalists are going to be very unhappy as that develops. Interesting. I know that there was no Federal religion, but I have heard that several of the States did have State religions at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Do you believe that the Constitution restricts both the State and Federal governments, or just the Federal? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 10:14:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 10:18:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law but what would he know. try again.  http://www.cato.org/blog/jefferson-was-great-man-he-didnt-write-constitution |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 10:20:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Moses?
That's a funny Greek name. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 10:50:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't forget the influence of the disasterous English 17th century and the collective memory of the English Civil War and Oliver Cromwell. The founders had good reasons to be wary of an official state religion. I suspect this had more influence on the founders thinking than Moses. And the Inquisition, and official persecutions by the British Government for religious reasons, and the various "crusades" foisted by the Catholic State Government Religions in France against various Protestant and "heretical" denominations. If anything they wanted to keep religion as far as possible out of the governing process. Hence the complete and total absence of any laws directing any recognition of any religion or observance of any religious recognition days. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 10:55:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Revolutionary War[edit] As a native Scotsman, long wary of the power British Crown, Witherspoon saw the growing centralization of government, progressive ideology of colonial authorities, and establishment of Episcopacy authority as a threat to the Liberties of the colonies. Of particular interest to Witherspoon was the crown's growing interference in the local and colonial affairs which previously had been the prerogatives and rights of the American authorities. When the crown began to give additional authority to its appointed Episcopacy over Church affairs, British authorities hit a nerve in the Presbyterian Scot, who saw such events in the same lens as his Scottish Covenanters. Soon, Witherspoon came to support the Revolution, joining the Committee of Correspondence and Safety in early 1774. His 1776 sermon "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men" was published in many editions and he was elected to the Continental Congress as part of the New Jersey delegation,[13] appointed Congressional Chaplain by President Hancock, and in July 1776, voted to adopt the Virginia Resolution for Independence. In answer to an objection that the country was not yet ready for independence, according to tradition he replied that it "was not only ripe for the measure, but in danger of rotting for the want of it.
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Posted: 11/23/2014 10:59:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Philosophy[edit]According to Herbert Hovenkamp, Witherspoon's most lasting contribution was the initiation of the Scottish Common-Sense Realism, which he had learned by reading Thomas Reid and two of his expounders Dugald Stewart and James Beattie.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Witherspoon#cite_note-hovenkamp-15][15][/url] Witherspoon revised the moral philosophy curriculum, strengthened the college's commitment to natural philosophy an early form of science tempered with Christian principles, and positioned Princeton in the larger transatlantic world of the republic of letters. Although a proponent of Christian values, Witherspoon's common sense approach to the public morality of civil magistrates was more influenced by the Enlightenment ethics of Scottish philosophers Francis Hutcheson and Thomas Reid than the Christian virtue of Jonathan Edwards. In regard to civil magistrates, Witherspoon thus believed moral judgement should be pursued as a science. In this regard, he held to old Roman Republic concepts of virtue in determining moral leadership in civil magistrates. It could be cultivated in his students or deduced through the development of the moral sense, an ethical compass instilled by God in all human beings and developed through religious education (Reid) or civil sociability (Hutcheson). Contrary to modern distinctions of morality, Witherspoon saw morality as having two distinct components: spiritual and temporal. Civil government owed more to the latter than the former in Witherspoon's Presbyterian doctrine. Thus, public morality owed more to the natural moral laws of the Enlightenment than traditional sources of Christian ethics. However, as a Christian, Witherspoon saw the impossibility of maintaining public morality or virtue in the citizenry without an effective religion. In this sense, the temporal principles of morality required a religious component which derived its authority from the spiritual. Therefore, public religion was a vital necessity in maintaining the public morals. Thus, while "public morals" were derived from natural virtue, its ultimate source lay in the public religion of Christianity. However, in this framework, non-Christian societies could have virtue, which, by his definition, could be found in natural law. Witherspoon, in accordance with the Scottish moral sense philosophy, taught that all human beings, Christian or otherwise, could be virtuous. Nonetheless, in keeping with the direction of destiny taught by the English Reformation, Scottish Reformation, and Irish Reformation colonial founders, he saw the new American national leaders, guided by their Christian religion, natural virtues, and republican sense of government, would be the most Protestant, Christian, free, and, therefore, noble nation, a light to the world. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:02:05 PM EDT
[#16]
There was a definite sense at the time that people immigrating to the New World were like the Israelites coming to the promised land.
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:02:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the Inquisition, and official persecutions by the British Government for religious reasons, and the various "crusades" foisted by the Catholic State Government Religions in France against various Protestant and "heretical" denominations. If anything they wanted to keep religion as far as possible out of the governing process. Hence the complete and total absence of any laws directing any recognition of any religion or observance of any religious recognition days. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't forget the influence of the disasterous English 17th century and the collective memory of the English Civil War and Oliver Cromwell. The founders had good reasons to be wary of an official state religion. I suspect this had more influence on the founders thinking than Moses. And the Inquisition, and official persecutions by the British Government for religious reasons, and the various "crusades" foisted by the Catholic State Government Religions in France against various Protestant and "heretical" denominations. If anything they wanted to keep religion as far as possible out of the governing process. Hence the complete and total absence of any laws directing any recognition of any religion or observance of any religious recognition days. Agree completly. Don't forget the Gunpowder Plot and the vicious persecution of Catholics. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:04:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your thread title is false. Amen |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:06:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law but what would he know. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:08:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. I know that there was no Federal religion, but I have heard that several of the States did have State religions at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Do you believe that the Constitution restricts both the State and Federal governments, or just the Federal? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That is a very interesting difference, and one I am going to have to ponder a bit. What is your take on all of what coldair was posting? He's pointing out the contributions Christians have made, but he misses the point. Of course Christianity influenced the United States, but none of his "evidence" shows that it was founded as a Christian nation or based upon Christian principles. The vast majority of those Christian men made a conscious decision NOT to set up a Christian government. We have some laws that are the same, but you can find a tribe in South America that has never seen a Christian and they will have laws against murder, theft, etc.. Had the founding fathers wanted to setup a theocracy, they could have. They chose to set up a country with no state religion and forbade religious tests for office. Our makeup still means Christians hold most offices and its more difficult for a religious minority to get elected, but in theory we could have a Muslim, Jewish, or atheist president. It will be interesting as Catholics become a larger and larger voting block and how it changes our politics. I think a lot of fundamentalists are going to be very unhappy as that develops. Interesting. I know that there was no Federal religion, but I have heard that several of the States did have State religions at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Do you believe that the Constitution restricts both the State and Federal governments, or just the Federal? The Church of England was the official Church of the colonies. IIRC, Parishes were a legal political area and parish churches were partially supported by tax monies in several states. Bishops were appointed by the Crown and approved by Parliament, and were Members of the House of Lords. The King being the Head of the Church. (and the extra title "Defender of the Faith" was given to Henry the 8th for some of his academic defenses of the Catholic Church. QE2 is still styled as "Defender of the Faith" When the Church of England in the colonies was severed from it's legal ties to the Government, they had to get Bishops in Scotland to consecrate the first US Bishops of the Episcopal Church, it would have been an act of treason for English Bishops to do it. Had they intended to have an official church, it is logical to assume the the Episcopal Church was the one that would be tagged. PECUSA Protestant Episcopal Church of the USA, while Protestant in name was catholic in liturgy and dogma. Liturgical /catholic (little c) churches include Episcopal, Lutheran and Presbyterian. But after the revolutions any official ties to any church were severed. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:09:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's pointing out the contributions Christians have made, but he misses the point. Of course Christianity influenced the United States, but none of his "evidence" shows that it was founded as a Christian nation or based upon Christian principles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That is a very interesting difference, and one I am going to have to ponder a bit. What is your take on all of what coldair was posting? He's pointing out the contributions Christians have made, but he misses the point. Of course Christianity influenced the United States, but none of his "evidence" shows that it was founded as a Christian nation or based upon Christian principles. The vast majority of those Christian men made a conscious decision NOT to set up a Christian government. We have some laws that are the same, but you can find a tribe in South America that has never seen a Christian and they will have laws against murder, theft, etc.. Had the founding fathers wanted to setup a theocracy, they could have. They chose to set up a country with no state religion and forbade religious tests for office. Our makeup still means Christians hold most offices and its more difficult for a religious minority to get elected, but in theory we could have a Muslim, Jewish, or atheist president. It will be interesting as Catholics become a larger and larger voting block and how it changes our politics. I think a lot of fundamentalists are going to be very unhappy as that develops. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:10:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never said that. English Common Law is a mixture of pagan and Judeo-Christian on both the Anglo-Saxon and Norman sides. There is also a huge difference in the statements "The US was founded as a Christian Nation" in the same way Iran is a Muslim Nation and "Christianity was a huge influence on the United States". The first statement is false. The 2nd is a statement of the obvious. The problem is when someone points out the problems with the first statement, the idiots who populate GD and this country jump straight to the second part. Sort of like how you did with my statement. Christianity has a huge influence on Western Civilization since the Battle of Milvan Bridge, I don't know anyone (even New Atheists) who doesn't acknowledge the historical significance of Christianity in the west. The question isn't about the influence, its whether the influence has been a net positive. I believe it has, but there have been some issues. Some of those issues led to the birth of our country. Our Founding Fathers were primarily Christian men who chose to make a secular government, because they had seen first hand the problems with a national religion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So your contention is that English Common law was in no way influenced by Judeo-Christian teachings? Would a similar argument be Sharia is only based on Islamic Law and had no relation to Arab custom? I never said that. English Common Law is a mixture of pagan and Judeo-Christian on both the Anglo-Saxon and Norman sides. There is also a huge difference in the statements "The US was founded as a Christian Nation" in the same way Iran is a Muslim Nation and "Christianity was a huge influence on the United States". The first statement is false. The 2nd is a statement of the obvious. The problem is when someone points out the problems with the first statement, the idiots who populate GD and this country jump straight to the second part. Sort of like how you did with my statement. Christianity has a huge influence on Western Civilization since the Battle of Milvan Bridge, I don't know anyone (even New Atheists) who doesn't acknowledge the historical significance of Christianity in the west. The question isn't about the influence, its whether the influence has been a net positive. I believe it has, but there have been some issues. Some of those issues led to the birth of our country. Our Founding Fathers were primarily Christian men who chose to make a secular government, because they had seen first hand the problems with a national religion. Who is arguing that the US was founded as a Christian Nation in the same way that Iran is a Muslim nation? I've run across precious few fundamentalist who would argue that point. One would be tempted to suggest that you are advancing a straw man. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:19:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law but what would he know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law but what would he know. He was also willing to "pay off" terrorists..so they would leave us alone. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:24:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He was also willing to "pay off" terrorists..so they would leave us alone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law but what would he know. He was also willing to "pay off" terrorists..so they would leave us alone. Google First Barbary War. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:24:26 PM EDT
[#25]
if our nation wasnt founded on christian principles than why do we pledge allegiance to the flag? last time i checked it stated ( One Nation under GOD) also every time any of us use cash or change doesent most if not all of it have ( In GOD We Trust) engraved on it somewhere. there was no mention of allah or budda in there. if anyone trys to deny that this nation wasnt founded by a majority of christian men with christian values on christian principals they are either delusional or liberal. regardless if you believe in God or not this is real factual history. Deal with it
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:26:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys are easy to troll. My first thought as well. All the normal defenders of their belief (or lack thereof) are coming out in full force in this one. It's gonna be good! 
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:27:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is your cite for this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll take his word on it over yours every day and twice on Sunday. What is your cite for this? high school history book? 
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:28:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. I know that there was no Federal religion, but I have heard that several of the States did have State religions at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Do you believe that the Constitution restricts both the State and Federal governments, or just the Federal? Originally, it was just the Federal, but I think the way it is now is better. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:28:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
if our nation wasnt founded on christian principles than why do we pledge allegiance to the flag? last time i checked it stated ( One Nation under GOD) also every time any of us use cash or change doesent most if not all of it have ( In GOD We Trust) engraved on it somewhere. there was no mention of allah or budda in there. if anyone trys to deny that this nation wasnt founded by a majority of christian men with christian values on christian principals they are either delusional or liberal. regardless if you believe in God or not this is real factual history. Deal with it Fortunatly, the Supreme Court doesn't agree with you. They appear to have bought into Jeffersons separation of church and state. Law of the land and all that. Nobody is arguing that the culture of this country isn't firmly grounded in the Jedeo-Christian tradition. That's a completely obvious fact. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:29:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... too bad jefferson didn't write the constitution or the bill or rights. try again. http://www.cato.org/blog/jefferson-was-great-man-he-didnt-write-constitution ..... never claimed he did I just said his understanding of it was better than say yours or anyone else's on this board try again |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:32:06 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
..... never claimed he did I just said his understanding of it was better than say yours or anyone else's on this board try again
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
... too bad jefferson didn't write the constitution or the bill or rights. try again.
http://www.cato.org/blog/jefferson-was-great-man-he-didnt-write-constitution ..... never claimed he did I just said his understanding of it was better than say yours or anyone else's on this board try again
You seem to assume that every founder would have agreed with Jefferson's opinion on the matter. That may well be true, but you haven't demonstrated it. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:32:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law but what would he know. common law was as much influenced by paganism (Roman and Germanic) as it was by Christianity. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:32:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys are easy to troll. heh...it fits their opinion of what it is..versus what it really is. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:32:44 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
snip Despite the efforts of Christian conservatives to pervert and twist U.S. history to satisfy their religious superstition, the fact remains Moses was not the first American, and America is not a Christian nation. Children deserve the truth. Who exactly is twisting and perverting US history? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:34:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thomas Moore and Thomas Aquinas have something to add. It would be best to do some research before you go straight Protestant to get a foundation from where you could possibly gain traction. You are so fucking off base here its not even funny. I am not a Protestant. I've stated Christianity was an influence. That includes both Protestant and Catholic. In sectarian squabbles on arfcom, I'm usually on the Catholic side. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:34:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Google First Barbary War. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law but what would he know. He was also willing to "pay off" terrorists..so they would leave us alone. Google First Barbary War. Don't need to...already read up on it...extensively |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:36:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who is arguing that the US was founded as a Christian Nation in the same way that Iran is a Muslim nation? I've run across precious few fundamentalist who would argue that point. One would be tempted to suggest that you are advancing a straw man. Do these two statements express the same concept? A nation composed primarily of Christians A Christian Nation |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:37:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do they suppose our laws and beliefs were based on back then? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Never read any Thomas Payne did you? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:37:40 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He was also willing to "pay off" terrorists..so they would leave us alone. and? So was Reagan what is your point? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:38:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: if our nation wasnt founded on christian principles than why do we pledge allegiance to the flag? last time i checked it stated ( One Nation under GOD) also every time any of us use cash or change doesent most if not all of it have ( In GOD We Trust) engraved on it somewhere. there was no mention of allah or budda in there. if anyone trys to deny that this nation wasnt founded by a majority of christian men with christian values on christian principals they are either delusional or liberal. regardless if you believe in God or not this is real factual history. Deal with it the pledge didn't originally have under god try again
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:38:35 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nobody is arguing that the culture of this country isn't firmly grounded in the Jedeo-Christian tradition. That's a completely obvious fact. agreed |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:41:01 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
and? So was Reagan what is your point? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He was also willing to "pay off" terrorists..so they would leave us alone. and? So was Reagan what is your point? Did Ronnie own slaves too? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:41:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Originally, it was just the Federal, but I think the way it is now is better. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Interesting. I know that there was no Federal religion, but I have heard that several of the States did have State religions at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Do you believe that the Constitution restricts both the State and Federal governments, or just the Federal? Originally, it was just the Federal, but I think the way it is now is better. So why do we still have States with State level Constitutions? And I know we are getting OT here, but I like having these types of conversations. 
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:42:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You seem to assume that every founder would have agreed with Jefferson's opinion on the matter. That may well be true, but you haven't demonstrated it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... too bad jefferson didn't write the constitution or the bill or rights. try again. http://www.cato.org/blog/jefferson-was-great-man-he-didnt-write-constitution ..... never claimed he did I just said his understanding of it was better than say yours or anyone else's on this board try again You seem to assume that every founder would have agreed with Jefferson's opinion on the matter. That may well be true, but you haven't demonstrated it. no I never stated that. I said I place a higher value on his views than some dude on arfcom. So does the Supreme Court. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:42:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the pledge didn't originally have under god try again Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
if our nation wasnt founded on christian principles than why do we pledge allegiance to the flag? last time i checked it stated ( One Nation under GOD) also every time any of us use cash or change doesent most if not all of it have ( In GOD We Trust) engraved on it somewhere. there was no mention of allah or budda in there. if anyone trys to deny that this nation wasnt founded by a majority of christian men with christian values on christian principals they are either delusional or liberal. regardless if you believe in God or not this is real factual history. Deal with it the pledge didn't originally have under god try again Have you seen what as originally put forth as the Seal of the US? |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:43:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
agreed Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nobody is arguing that the culture of this country isn't firmly grounded in the Jedeo-Christian tradition. That's a completely obvious fact. agreed While we all may agrre on that, the folks in the article posted in the op, and a lot of Progressives as well, would disagree with us. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:46:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did Ronnie own slaves too? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: He was also willing to "pay off" terrorists..so they would leave us alone. and? So was Reagan what is your point? Did Ronnie own slaves too? Nope, and again what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? a lot of FF's owned slaves. Good Christian men who believed the Bible placed blacks in a subservient position to whites. Great men with feet of clay..... that's a Biblical reference in case you didn't catch it.... |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:47:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fortunatly, the Supreme Court doesn't agree with you. They appear to have bought into Jeffersons separation of church and state. Law of the land and all that. Nobody is arguing that the culture of this country isn't firmly grounded in the Jedeo-Christian tradition. That's a completely obvious fact. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
if our nation wasnt founded on christian principles than why do we pledge allegiance to the flag? last time i checked it stated ( One Nation under GOD) also every time any of us use cash or change doesent most if not all of it have ( In GOD We Trust) engraved on it somewhere. there was no mention of allah or budda in there. if anyone trys to deny that this nation wasnt founded by a majority of christian men with christian values on christian principals they are either delusional or liberal. regardless if you believe in God or not this is real factual history. Deal with it Fortunatly, the Supreme Court doesn't agree with you. They appear to have bought into Jeffersons separation of church and state. Law of the land and all that. Nobody is arguing that the culture of this country isn't firmly grounded in the Jedeo-Christian tradition. That's a completely obvious fact. then why havent they been able to remove GOD from our money or the Pledge? last i checked GOD is still there. also why the hatred for christians i have never treated non christians with disrespect but have been repeatedly called names and been demeaned by atheists/nonbelievers because of my beliefs. the way i look at the whole matter of being a christian is this. ( im a christian i believe in GOD atheist/non believers do not believe in GOD. i live my life the way that makes me happy so do atheists/non believers if im right and i die i go to heaven if the atheist/nonbeliever is right we end up in same place no harm done to anyone But what if i am right) im nnot saying you were demeaning toward me or anything ive just never understood why non believers are always hating on christians its what i choose to believe in dosent affect you at all but it will guide my decision making |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:48:33 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to Thomas Jefferson, it was English Common Law but what would he know. Yes and no. The judicial system is based on English Common Law, however the Constitution and Bill of Rights is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. |
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Posted: 11/23/2014 11:52:55 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So why do we still have States with State level Constitutions? And I know we are getting OT here, but I like having these types of conversations. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Interesting. I know that there was no Federal religion, but I have heard that several of the States did have State religions at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Do you believe that the Constitution restricts both the State and Federal governments, or just the Federal? Originally, it was just the Federal, but I think the way it is now is better. So why do we still have States with State level Constitutions? And I know we are getting OT here, but I like having these types of conversations. States rights, and necessity. wiki has a good article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_constitution_%28United_States%29
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