Appleseed is awesome.  Take the kids.

I have been to four Appleseeds.
I went to two of them way back years ago when it was first getting started. Fred personally taught the class. Even though I was very active in shooting at the time I didn't shoot a Rifleman score either of my first two events.
I always meant to go back. I wanted to get a Rifleman's patch for my own personal satisfaction. I have owned guns my whole life and shoot far more than most people. I was humbled by not having shot Rifleman. At the time, I shot rifles competitively (not NRA Highpower) and had been to Gunsite several times and had been to Frontsight a bunch of times where again, I shot very well. But still was unable to shoot an AQT to Rifleman standards

So, this year I decided to try it again. This time, I shot a Rifleman score on the second day and shot a clean Redcoat. The second one I attended this year, I shot a number of Rifleman scores and again shot one clean Redcoat.

Obviously I really enjoy the program. Of course I enjoy spending two solid days shooting. I enjoy the history. I like what they are trying to do and what the whole program is about. I don't have a bad word to say about it. It is good solid, basic rifle shooting skills. Almost every male in the US THINKS they know how to shoot, but my experience is that they don't. And attending these Appleseeds has greatly reinforced that opinion. It is rare for someone to shoot a Rifleman score: at least at the Appleseeds I have been to.

The subject of shooting at 25 meters always comes up in these discussions one way or another. There are a number of positive things about shooting this at 25 meters: first of all there are a lot of places that don't have full distance ranges: here where I live now I don't know of any place around here that has anymore than a 200 yard range. Second is the fact that you are trying to learn the basics of shooting a rifle. That is hard enough to master without adding in other factors such as wind, sight adjustment for range.......... This course isn't intended to be the do all, end all of rifle shooting. Once you master the basics, by all means move on to full distances where you can then concentrate on the techniques needed for that instead of trying to learn the basics at the same time. Of course the biggest thing about the 25 meter range is that all the armchair commandos think it is easy to shoot into 4 MOA at 25 meters. They do it all the time from a bench with sandbags. But when they actually try, they find out that they are lacking in fundamentals.

Which brings us to the Rifleman's Challenge. I dont' get on here like I once did, but I am sure this has been discussed numerous times on this board. Go to the website Rifleman's Challenge, download the target and shoot it. No bench, no sandbags, no bipods. Just you and your rifle with a sling at 25 yards. 10 shots in 1 minute. ALL shots must be in the black or you didn't meet the challenge. If you can do it, great. If you can't, you might want to get some instruction.

Don't waste your time; he can't.

I could not make it the first day but I attended the Sunday event. It works out because Saturday was more historical stories and Sunday was more shooting. I used a 10/22 with a heavy barrel, hogue stock and leupold scope. My friend had a stock 10/22.

I had a perfect score -1 up until the last stage. If I actually took the time I would have scored higher than 220. I want to go back and get above 230.

Anyways after I scored Rifleman my buddy was having a hard time with his stock 10/22. We switched and he scored higher than me, my score dropped to 180 with his gun. Your gun counts. As still as I can hold the rifle, using a crummy inaccurate gun will not help you. Get a tackdriver, zero it at 25m (1000inches) and a good GI sling. Also bring a mat to lay in, the rocks/ground gets awfully uncomfortable. I also liked going in the winter so I had a heavy jacket. Of course winters here are not a big deal.

Good luck and it was worth it, I learned a lot.

I had a great time when I did it back in 2009.  Been meaning to go again.

I ran my Colt 6940, my first AR actually, with a 4x ACOG on it.  Back then, ammo wasn't super expensive, though a .22 would have been more economical for sure.

I ended up getting my Rifleman patch on day two (5 out of 40 got it) shooting a 218.  But to some extent, I feel like a cheated myself by using an optic.  All the instructors I had were top notch and afterward they told me my mindset was bs, that the scope just let's you see.  I'm not sure.  I might go back and do it with irons and see how I do...my eyesight isn't great though, so I know the optic was a benefit.

I was asked at the time to come back and get into the instructor program, but I couldn't due to school.

I had fantastic, open-minded instructors who were great story-tellers and adaptive to the needs, strengths, and weaknesses of their students.  The fellow students I worked with were great too...a positive, humble, willing-to-learn attitude makes all the difference.

I can't recommend the program highly enough for all shooters, young and old, experienced and novice.  They're fun events, challenging, and cheap.  Whats not to love?

 

Rifles:
I believe that the first two Appleseeds I shot were done with an M1. But it's been over 10 years ago and my memory is hazy. Back then you could buy truck loads of mil-surp ammo for what it would cost you to shoot a .22 today.

The two I went to this year, I used a Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights, a Kidd trigger, and a Hogue overmolded stock. One of my goals in going back to an Appleseed was to shoot a Rifleman score using iron sights. And, I pulled it off. A half dozen times. My eyes arn't what they used to be. I am now over 50 and wearing glasses. I couldn't distinctly see the stage 4 targets by any means. But, it's amazing how well you can shoot anyway.

Now I want to return, and do it again with a scope. The rifle will be a 10/22 clone with a Leupold 2-7x .22 scope and a Kidd trigger. I started practicing a couple weeks ago and it is significantly easier to shoot this course of fire when you can see the targets clearly. I downloaded that Rifleman's Challenge target and shot about six of them with my 10/22 and iron sights (the same rifle I used in the Appleseeds). I have thus far been unable to put all 10 rounds in the black with it. I shot a bunch of targets with eight out of ten in the black and the other two close but not in the black. With the scoped rifle, I did it within my first couple targets and can do it pretty consistently.

I am hooked on these Appleseeds. I can't give you one solid reason why, but I am having a lot of fun and intend to keep going back. After making rifleman with the scoped rifle, I will move on to the bolt gun and the centerfires. I enjoy challenging myself, I enjoy rifle shooting, I enjoy shooting in a semi-formal setting where each shot is scored with no do-overs.........and around here there isn't much in the way of competitive type rifle shooting without long drives and hotels stays. So, Appleseeds fill my desires.

Edit: there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a scope. The point of this whole exercise is to get you shooting well enough to score Rifleman. There are almost no equipment restrictions.

Is this not the same organization that requires you to use a copyrighted target that you have to purchase? If not, my bad.

 

It is cheap enough.

Shooting in good company. I enjoy it.

Every class or competition I was ever involved with required you to use a target they specified and supplied ????

No, it's not.  Targets are provided for the shooters and covered in the registration fees.  We usually have enough left over at the end of the day that anybody who wants to take some home can have them.  For free.

they dont charge you per target so no not really. You bring the ammo they provide everything else.

I will vouch for that. they sent my wife home with a fist full to practice. I got rifleman on my second day but she went to 2-3 to get hers. she was not giving up until she got it. They had no issue giving her supplies to continue to practice. Do they make money? Probably but its not like they are raping you to make a dime. What ever we spent i felt we got our moneys worth.

 

 

I just wished there was dry practice of the positions in between the group instruction and the firing.  


You go from "here's how you all do it"  to  "okay load magazines"  

Meanwhile, you're wiggling around trying to figure out how to best position your arms, butts, slings, etc. for the given position.

 

Yeah, there was no reading targets, no time spent on target analysis.  Just rip em down quickly and put new ones up.  "Hurry Up shooters!"

"Come listen to this overly dramatic rendition of history I ALMOST  memorized."


I think really, the thing that limited it, was that it only cost 80$( or whatever it cost).  You get what you pay for, usually.

It was worth 80$


ETA:

I've had many different training classes (not just on shooting... for many other things.)  
Good training (in my mind) goes like this:
-theory (classwork)
-dry rehearsal
-corrections from peers and instructors
-live fire or live performance
-aar
-live fire again after "lessons"


crawl walk run

Were the instructors "3 Percenter" types?

 

It's been a couple years,but that was my impression.  I linked my thread, which I was updating from the bar after day 1

I recommend it highly

My writeup on appleseed



I want to try it next time with my 15-22 without a sling

I had an issue with the pace of things also.

At these Appleseeds, I knew what I was weak on. I had shot enough and was familiar enough with the concepts that I knew where I was making my mistakes. I felt like, if only I could work on those areas slowly until I had them down, I would be much better off. But it don't work that way and just like my previous experiences, their system worked: I was doing it right in short order doing it their way and not mine.

First of all you have to keep in mind that they only have two days and they have breaks and what-not during those days: limited time. I think part of their solution is the line coaches. Yeah, they show you how to do something once before you go to the line. But once you are on the line, the instructors work with each person and help them work through the technique individually. So, it isn't really like you are only seeing it once then expected to perform to that level.

Having been to four different Appleseeds at three different places in two different states; taught by different instructors; I can tell you that every Appleseed is not like every other Appleseed. I know that at the two I went to this year, there was always plenty of target analysis done individually with each student on every target. In fact, I often went down and changed targets without waiting for them to look at mine and back at the line they asked to see it and give my advice. The introduction to target analysis is done right around the time you are doing the inches/minutes/clicks lecture to explain what they are looking at on your target and then it is done each and every target there-after: at all the Appleseeds I have been to.

I should add that the instructor to student ratio makes a big difference in what goes on and at what pace it is done. All the ones I was at, there was a very high number of instructors and they had more than enough instructors to give each student individual attention. I even went to one Appleseed where there were only two shooters on the first day (more showed up on day 2). So, I had a guy kneeling right next to me for every shot I fired. FWIW: I after I shot Rifleman a number of times, they asked me to get into their instructor program. I found out that you need to instruct at 12 shoots a year. So this explains why they have so many instructors at shoots where there arn't a lot of registered shooters. They all show up because they need to do 12 a year; and here, the weather dictates that this is pretty much all done in 4-5 months of the year.

Appleseed?  I prefer Masamune Shirow's.

That's right.  In all the ones I taught at the rate was about 12 to 15% of the attendees that shot a 210 or higher at 25 meters.  Yeah, its short range.  Yeah, the targets are kinda small.  Yeah, its not off a bench and you have to reload and you have to change position and you have multiple targets on 3 out of 4 stages, and oh yeah, time limits.

Go with an open mind and learn what you can.  I've seen kids outshoot adult men - because kids don't "know it all" and they listen to you and try to apply what they are learning.

Those New England guys still have a lot of the "Battle Road" philosophy.  The shoot almost twice the rounds in a 2 day Appleseed as most of the rest of the country does.  The redcoats are gone but they are still lighting the place up with muzzle blast, smoke and lead.

My first Appleseed I shot my M1A.  No, I was not a new shooter.  Expert with M16 and M14 in the Army.  Battalion Combat Pistol Team, etc., etc.  I didn't get a Rifleman Patch in my first Appleseed.  I had to wait till I went to a Rifleman's Bootcamp when we got to shoot all week before I shot a 210 at 25 meters and then I got a 211 at full distance, on a very windy day.

Ah, the memories.  Lot's of good ones.

I've been meaning to do one for a while. Next one near me is August 16-17. Gonna have to try to get off work the 16th, or just do one day.

I just think its funny that Fred is so pro 2A....but anti NFA.....

 

Explain, please.  

ETA:  A pro2A person SHOULD be anti-NFA...did you mean PRO-NFA?

The Redcoats may be gone, but we never got rid of the Tories completely, and now they nearly run the place again!
Speaking to the pace, it was fast for me and a hell of a challenge for my 10yr old. But I think it had a calculated forging effect that was maximized for the time allowed.

link?

 

       




































 

I took my 15 y.o. daughter to the one in Liberty Center, Ohio, about a month ago.  She had an absolute blast, and dramatically improved from Day 1 to Day 2.  We both enjoyed the history, and the pace was apparently slower than some of the others have related.  She got a personal instructor about every other string, and we analyzed each target.  We will do another after soccer season.  And I will go and use a scope, as my damn-near 50 y.o. eyes suddenly are having a hard time seeing targets and reading small print.

The pace can vary a lot depending on the proficiency of the students and how many instructors are available.  Also, during the ammo shortage, we cut back significantly on the number of AQTs because people were having trouble getting 500-700 to shoot the full two days, which meant more time for critique and analysis.  One thing nobody has pointed out is that while Appleseed is a program that teaches basic marksmanship, it is not "Intro to shooting 101".  You should already be thoroughly familiar with your rifle and confident in its ability to reliably fire 500-1000 rounds.  We've had several people come in with no experience with guns at all, and while we helped them as best we could, they struggled because they were not only having to learn what we were trying to teach, but also learning how to use their gun.

In related news, http://www.colorado2a.org/ members will be able to attend the Byers, CO Appleseed shoot in August for FREE

Which is one thing I mentioned in my review linked in this thread.

I dont want to just shoot aqt after aqt trying to see which one is the highest score..I want to practice techniques and small changes, and analyze their effect.

I think the whole "patch" thing causes people to want to just keep trying aqt's. But if they focused more on the training, the aqt score would naturally be better.

The story time stuff could be cut out.  Hell, give out a cd with a professionally read story. Most people drive a ways to get to the shoot. You could listen to it on your way back.

Or hand out a booklet on day one and have a quiz on day 2.  More time for drills.

Great program, have been shooting since I was 6 when and have shot 3 gun for years. I learned a lot, both about American Heritage,  and shooting. It improved shooting with a sling and other little tid bits. It's a great program for the beginner or the advanced. I highly recommend it. It's really great for a sibling or significant other to attend as well. I've taken several friends and always with great results.

 

Well, then they could do a whole lot better telling the story...

(But the people that come to these are the types usually already keyed into this type of stuff).


Anyway, like I've said, it's okay training and worth the money and time. Don't let my constant comments indicate otherwise.  I simply like to add constructive criticismand my opinions for improvement.

Some people are definitely better story tellers than others.  We've got a Cajun dude who tells the Sam Whittemore story in that swamp accent of theirs so well, even though I've heard it dozens of times it never gets old.  On the flip side, I couldn't talk my way out of a wet bag if I had to.  We're all volunteers and we do our best, but sometimes you get to be tortured by us butchering a history lesson; that's just the way the chips fall.

 

Fred aside,  it is a great group of volunteers and certainly learned as much as some of the tacticool classes I have taken for less money.  This is old school marksmanship not tier 1 fantasy camp fwiw.

you should fo

Again, I understand your point and agree that things are rushed and you don't get a whole lotta time to perfect what they are teaching you. But, two days is two days and in my opinion like many others is that the story telling is at least as important as the shooting. The story of how this county was founded is in many cases not being told in our school systems. And in my case, we covered a lot of this in school but that was 30 years ago(actually more than that) for me and at the time I heard it, I was day dreaming and looking at the girls. So it was nice for me to hear the stories again, which prompted me to leave there and start looking stuff up on the internet and reading a couple books about Revolutionary War history.

And, I love the take home message from the stories: those guys fought and in some cases died so that we would have the power to make this country whatever we wanted it to be. All it takes is our active participation.

As far as the shooting goes, once again, you are not going to master these techniques in two days. However it gives you the knowledge to try to master them in the future. We have all heard the adage that "Practice DOESN'T make perfect; Perfect practice makes perfect. Once you learn the right way to do things, you can come a lot closer to perfect practice. Most of us shoot on a semi-regular basis. Most of us were using bad technique in that practice and thus making poor progress and instead reinforcing bad habits. This is why taking a course in basic rifle shooting technique is so important. And since attaining the Rifleman patch isn't important to you, I would say that you got your money's worth out of the course.

The Rifleman's patch is simply a standard. It presents to you a minimum level of competence. It shows that you are using good basic shooting technique. I would say that it would be extremely rare that someone could shoot a Rifleman score on an AQT without using good technique, or at least if they did pull it off they couldn't do it consistently. The patch itself isn't the do all and end all of rifle shooting. It is just a benchmark. Many of us used it as a personal goal. We worked towards that goal and when we achieved it we were proud of ourselves. And I dont' see anything wrong with that. Like many goals, once we achieve it we realize that it only the beginning and there are much loftier goals. But, it is a step along the way.

I would absolutely go with an optic were I to do it. Irons are too blurry now for me as well. Nothing to feel bad about at all.

 

This is how it was for me.

I think it varies quite a bit depending on the instructors.

so I just figured out that I can't really use Tech-Sites on my Tac-Sol 10/22 barrel, so what optic would those that have attended suggest using?

would something like the Primary Arms 1-6X work?

That should work great. I used an ACOG for part of an event, worked well. Not sure how a red dot sight would do, I've never had much luck shooting precisely with those myself - anything in the ACOG, 1-4, or even 3-9 hunting scope realm should be fine. If you don't have anything like that look at the Primary Arms 1-4/6 models or the 1-3 Weaver.