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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:08:45 PM EDT
[#1]
The shop can tell you they don't want to sell you a rifle for any number of reasons.
They didn't feel comfortable with the sale and they were covering their ass. I can't blame them too much for that. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:10:17 PM EDT
[#2]
I'd have said "well she can divorce me and take the fucking thing anyway but whatever you say buddy" then go spend my money somewhere else.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:11:24 PM EDT
[#3]
Receipt will have one name while the 4473 will have another.
They can turn you away for w.e they want. Go get the cash and go back... |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:12:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Receipt will have one name while the 4473 will have another. They can turn you away for w.e they want. Go get the cash and go back... It would not have been a straw purchase regardless. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:13:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Receipt will have one name while the 4473 will have another. They can turn you away for w.e they want. Go get the cash and go back... It would not have been a straw purchase regardless. Since when does that matter to the BATFE? |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:14:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: kinda what i thought...
Quoted:
Receipt will have one name while the 4473 will have another. They can turn you away for w.e they want. Go get the cash and go back... It would not have been a straw purchase regardless. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:15:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Well I guess I'm guilty of a couple of straw purchases.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:15:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:16:21 PM EDT
[#9]
When I use to sell guns, a long time ago, you never worried about showing the customer receipt to any ATF auditor, all they cared about was the form being properly filled out. Have things changed, I haven't noticed. I've never seen them put a copy of the recceipt with the form.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:17:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: Receipt will have one name while the 4473 will have another. They can turn you away for w.e they want. Go get the cash and go back... It would not have been a straw purchase regardless. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:18:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Maybe they were just good God fearin' folks trying to save your marriage.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:18:47 PM EDT
[#12]
If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card.
Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:24:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card. Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules. They're married. Same last name, same account. Def not a straw buy, but it's their shop. OP don't buy stuff you don't need on credit
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:26:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Lol.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:29:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card. Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules. They're married. Same last name, same account. Def not a straw buy, but it's their shop. OP don't buy stuff you don't need on credit Words of wisdom for sure. Literally just didn't have the 2k on me or have my debit card. But the.308 was definitely part of my budget this month. I'll pay cash tomorrow. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:29:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card. Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules. They're married. Same last name, same account. Def not a straw buy, but it's their shop. OP don't buy stuff you don't need on credit Pfffft. Max that credit out. Why wouldn't you carry as much debt as you can handle? What else is it good for? |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:32:00 PM EDT
[#17]
If had my name on an FFL and it was just some dude like you I didnt know personally. No way i would sell to you. If I am a mom and pop operation and you come in and I know you like a brother than probably yes. But based on what you say...no way.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:34:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card. Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules. They're married. Same last name, same account. Def not a straw buy, but it's their shop. OP don't buy stuff you don't need on credit Pfffft. Max that credit out. Why wouldn't you carry as much debt as you can handle? What else is it good for? Hell yeah. Got what, like 17 days before the world ends? He'll never have to make the first payment. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:35:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
If had my name on an FFL and it was just some dude like you I didnt know personally. No way i would sell to you. If I am a mom and pop operation and you come in and I know you like a brother than probably yes. But based on what you say...no way. I respect your view. I really do. But why no way? Which part of that law is that breaking exactly? |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:40:16 PM EDT
[#20]
Home Depot declined my corporate card once, trying to buy some CFLs. Card had company name and I was wearing a shirt with same name on it. Had to have CFO of company come down with documentation b4 store security would release me and bulbs.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:45:17 PM EDT
[#21]
I only buy guns using my ex-wifes credit card.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:49:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: I only buy guns using my ex-wifes credit card.  |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:49:44 PM EDT
[#23]
On the form 4473 you have to state you are the actual purchaser of the weapon. If the receipt shows a different name (i.e. another person did the financial part of the transaction), it's grey enough that it could look like a straw purchase (why didn't the person who paid for it fill want out the form?).
It's still potentially a straw purchase even if both parties can legally own the gun, the crime is committed filling out the 4473 stating you are the purchaser when technically you may not be. Most shops follow the 'the person who chooses the gun and pays for the gun has to fill out the form 4473' - anything else has the potential to get them, and you, in trouble - wrong or right it is the way it is. Even if your wife was with you and was prepared to fill out the 4473, the shop would still likely halt the transaction, since you picked the gun out... |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:50:55 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
If had my name on an FFL and it was just some dude like you I didnt know personally. No way i would sell to you. If I am a mom and pop operation and you come in and I know you like a brother than probably yes. But based on what you say...no way. Derp. Its the 4473 and if it was properly logged in and and out correctly- now how it was paid for. You could trade four tons of dogshit for a gun and the ATF wouldn't care in the slightest. The JimmyJoe pudknocker FFL was being a PITA, that's all. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:54:15 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: There is no law to break. Quoted: If had my name on an FFL and it was just some dude like you I didnt know personally. No way i would sell to you. If I am a mom and pop operation and you come in and I know you like a brother than probably yes. But based on what you say...no way. I respect your view. I really do. But why no way? Which part of that law is that breaking exactly? It's up to the business on weather or not they will take a card with your wifes name on it. If it was a card that needed a pin code, and you have the code, that card could say hugh hefner and they couldn't do a damn thing.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 6:54:54 PM EDT
[#26]
false
Quoted: etaOn the form 4473 you have to state you are the actual purchaser of the weapon. If the receipt shows a different name (i.e. another person did the financial part of the transaction), it's grey enough that it could look like a straw purchase (why didn't the person who paid for it fill want out the form?). It's still potentially a straw purchase even if both parties can legally own the gun, the crime is committed filling out the 4473 stating you are the purchaser when technically you may not be. Most shops follow the 'the person who chooses the gun and pays for the gun has to fill out the form 4473' - anything else has the potential to get them, and you, in trouble - wrong or right it is the way it is. Even if your wife was with you and was prepared to fill out the 4473, the shop would still likely halt the transaction, since you picked the gun out...  everything written there is false. op is married to the card holder. There is no straw purchase. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:00:32 PM EDT
[#27]
If both you and your wife are authorized to use the credit card, is it still a straw purchase? I would say that the purchase was from a joint account and that the name on the 4473 will be the person purchasing it.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:01:15 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
false Quoted:
eta On the form 4473 you have to state you are the actual purchaser of the weapon. If the receipt shows a different name (i.e. another person did the financial part of the transaction), it's grey enough that it could look like a straw purchase (why didn't the person who paid for it fill want out the form?). It's still potentially a straw purchase even if both parties can legally own the gun, the crime is committed filling out the 4473 stating you are the purchaser when technically you may not be. Most shops follow the 'the person who chooses the gun and pays for the gun has to fill out the form 4473' - anything else has the potential to get them, and you, in trouble - wrong or right it is the way it is. Even if your wife was with you and was prepared to fill out the 4473, the shop would still likely halt the transaction, since you picked the gun out... everything written there is false.
LOL... go read question 11 (a) on the 4473 and the instructions for it. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:01:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: If had my name on an FFL and it was just some dude like you I didnt know personally. No way i would sell to you. If I am a mom and pop operation and you come in and I know you like a brother than probably yes. But based on what you say...no way. Derp. Its the 4473 and if it was properly logged in and and out correctly- now how it was paid for. You could trade four tons of dogshit for a gun and the ATF wouldn't care in the slightest. The JimmyJoe pudknocker FFL was being a PITA, that's all. concur |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:03:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
If both you and your wife are authorized to use the credit card, is it still a straw purchase? I would say that the purchase was from a joint account and that the name on the 4473 will be the person purchasing it. Possibly. It is perfectly legal to buy as a gift for your spouse. If you are both authorized on the account, then surely you'd have a card in your own name so this wouldn't be an issue? |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:06:35 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Quoted: false Quoted: eta On the form 4473 you have to state you are the actual purchaser of the weapon. If the receipt shows a different name (i.e. another person did the financial part of the transaction), it's grey enough that it could look like a straw purchase (why didn't the person who paid for it fill want out the form?). It's still potentially a straw purchase even if both parties can legally own the gun, the crime is committed filling out the 4473 stating you are the purchaser when technically you may not be. Most shops follow the 'the person who chooses the gun and pays for the gun has to fill out the form 4473' - anything else has the potential to get them, and you, in trouble - wrong or right it is the way it is. Even if your wife was with you and was prepared to fill out the 4473, the shop would still likely halt the transaction, since you picked the gun out... everything written there is false. LOL... go read question 11 (a) on the 4473 and the instructions for it. are you serious? every single thing you have stated so far has been false. please tell me where in .11a it states who pays for what, or how it's paid for. it doesn't. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:09:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: If both you and your wife are authorized to use the credit card, is it still a straw purchase? I would say that the purchase was from a joint account and that the name on the 4473 will be the person purchasing it. Possibly. It is perfectly legal to buy as a gift for your spouse. If you are both authorized on the account, then surely you'd have a card in your own name so this wouldn't be an issue? again, false. the 4473 has absolutely nothing to do with the credit card.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:13:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Ummm... If the ID and the card don't match, I won't make the sale, especially on high dollar items. Its not that hard to have your name added to that account, and have your own card issued. Its not the gunshop's fault, they're just covering their ass, because if the charge gets disputed, they are out a rifle and the money. Now if your wife was there with her card, I would think they would have made the sale in a heartbeat, if not, they are a bunch of dumbasses who don't like money.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:14:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card. Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules. I don't even remember the last time I handed my card to a cashier where the guy even had a second thought about looking at my card, let alone seeing if I was in fact, the holder of the card. Click To View Spoiler |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:18:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
false Quoted:
eta On the form 4473 you have to state you are the actual purchaser of the weapon. If the receipt shows a different name (i.e. another person did the financial part of the transaction), it's grey enough that it could look like a straw purchase (why didn't the person who paid for it fill want out the form?). It's still potentially a straw purchase even if both parties can legally own the gun, the crime is committed filling out the 4473 stating you are the purchaser when technically you may not be. Most shops follow the 'the person who chooses the gun and pays for the gun has to fill out the form 4473' - anything else has the potential to get them, and you, in trouble - wrong or right it is the way it is. Even if your wife was with you and was prepared to fill out the 4473, the shop would still likely halt the transaction, since you picked the gun out... everything written there is false.
LOL... go read question 11 (a) on the 4473 and the instructions for it. are you serious? every single thing you have stated so far has been false. please tell me where in .11a it states who pays for what, or how it's paid for. it doesn't. It's all in the interpretation of the phrase 'actual buyer' - if the money to complete the transaction is coming from someone else, you could argue they are the buyer, in which case you would be lying on question 11(a). Bear in mind this is the ATF we are dealing with, and should anything negative happen it'll be your attorney vs. the government arguing over the definition of the term 'actual buyer' - which is exactly why I used the term 'grey enough' in my original post. I agree completely that it shouldn't matter where the funds come from in the example above, but I also understand why virtually every FFL I know follows 'the person who chooses it and pays for it has to fill out the 4473' - as the OP found out. I've seen at least one other poster in GD be denied by an FFL because he picked out a gun and his wife tried to pay for it with him filling out the 4473 in the past couple of weeks - this thread keeps coming up, people get all hot and bothered, but it doesn't change the fact that FFL's have the right to deny anything that isn't a straight, clean transaction. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:20:39 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: false Quoted: eta On the form 4473 you have to state you are the actual purchaser of the weapon. If the receipt shows a different name (i.e. another person did the financial part of the transaction), it's grey enough that it could look like a straw purchase (why didn't the person who paid for it fill want out the form?). It's still potentially a straw purchase even if both parties can legally own the gun, the crime is committed filling out the 4473 stating you are the purchaser when technically you may not be. Most shops follow the 'the person who chooses the gun and pays for the gun has to fill out the form 4473' - anything else has the potential to get them, and you, in trouble - wrong or right it is the way it is. Even if your wife was with you and was prepared to fill out the 4473, the shop would still likely halt the transaction, since you picked the gun out... everything written there is false. LOL... go read question 11 (a) on the 4473 and the instructions for it. are you serious? every single thing you have stated so far has been false. please tell me where in .11a it states who pays for what, or how it's paid for. it doesn't. It's all in the interpretation of the phrase 'actual buyer' - if the money to complete the transaction is coming from someone else, you could argue they are the buyer, in which case you would be lying on question 11(a). Bear in mind this is the ATF we are dealing with, and should anything negative happen it'll be your attorney vs. the government arguing over the definition of the term 'actual buyer' - which is exactly why I used the term 'grey enough' in my original post. I agree completely that it shouldn't matter where the funds come from in the example above, but I also understand why virtually every FFL I know follows 'the person who chooses it and pays for it has to fill out the 4473' - as the OP found out. I've seen at least one other poster in GD be denied by an FFL because he picked out a gun and his wife tried to pay for it with him filling out the 4473 in the past couple of weeks - this thread keeps coming up, people get all hot and bothered, but it doesn't change the fact that FFL's have the right to deny anything that isn't a straight, clean transaction. Wall of text Stop It's not a straw purchase. It's his wife's card. eta in red correct. I said the same thing if you look above.  |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:25:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
false Quoted:
eta On the form 4473 you have to state you are the actual purchaser of the weapon. If the receipt shows a different name (i.e. another person did the financial part of the transaction), it's grey enough that it could look like a straw purchase (why didn't the person who paid for it fill want out the form?). It's still potentially a straw purchase even if both parties can legally own the gun, the crime is committed filling out the 4473 stating you are the purchaser when technically you may not be. Most shops follow the 'the person who chooses the gun and pays for the gun has to fill out the form 4473' - anything else has the potential to get them, and you, in trouble - wrong or right it is the way it is. Even if your wife was with you and was prepared to fill out the 4473, the shop would still likely halt the transaction, since you picked the gun out... everything written there is false.
LOL... go read question 11 (a) on the 4473 and the instructions for it. are you serious? every single thing you have stated so far has been false. please tell me where in .11a it states who pays for what, or how it's paid for. it doesn't. It's all in the interpretation of the phrase 'actual buyer' - if the money to complete the transaction is coming from someone else, you could argue they are the buyer, in which case you would be lying on question 11(a). Bear in mind this is the ATF we are dealing with, and should anything negative happen it'll be your attorney vs. the government arguing over the definition of the term 'actual buyer' - which is exactly why I used the term 'grey enough' in my original post. I agree completely that it shouldn't matter where the funds come from in the example above, but I also understand why virtually every FFL I know follows 'the person who chooses it and pays for it has to fill out the 4473' - as the OP found out. I've seen at least one other poster in GD be denied by an FFL because he picked out a gun and his wife tried to pay for it with him filling out the 4473 in the past couple of weeks - this thread keeps coming up, people get all hot and bothered, but it doesn't change the fact that FFL's have the right to deny anything that isn't a straight, clean transaction. Wall of text Stop It's not a straw purchase. It's his wife's card. I'm laughing so hard here. Just FYI - this is straight from the ATF to FFL's - look at page 2, second bullet point, they define their interpretation of the term 'actual buyer': http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/SHOT%20Show%202012/011912-detecting-avoiding-illegal-straw-purchases.pdf Specifically: “Actual buyer” selects firearm, pays for firearm, takes custody of firearm, etc. Doesn't say anything about making an exception for spouses paying... |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:26:00 PM EDT
[#38]
Nvm.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:29:50 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I only buy guns using my ex-wifes credit card.
In that case then, technically, my wife owns ALL of my guns except for one.
I hope she doesn't leave. 
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:31:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Bought his and hers 1911's and paid for them only to have the FFL figure it that since she was the reciepient of one of the pistols then she needed to fill out a 4473 as well. I think it's just the personel preference of the particular FFL and their paranoia level concerning ATF.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:33:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: First of all, gifts between spouses are allowed. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wall of text Stop It's not a straw purchase. It's his wife's card. I'm laughing so hard here. Just FYI - this is straight from the ATF to FFL's - look at page 2, second bullet point, they define their interpretation of the term 'actual buyer': http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/SHOT%20Show%202012/011912-detecting-avoiding-illegal-straw-purchases.pdf Specifically: "Actual buyer” selects firearm, pays for firearm, takes custody of firearm, etc. Doesn't say anything about making an exception for spouses paying... Second, this was not a gift, it was op using his wifes card, that I am assuming is linked to a joint account. Even if it's not a joint account, it doesn't matter. See my first point.
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:36:24 PM EDT
[#42]
Buy a gift card with the CC. Then use gift Card for gun purchase. Is this really so hard?
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:37:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: your ffl did the right thing. If two people are going to own two pistols, you need two forms. fed lawBought his and hers 1911's and paid for them only to have the FFL figure it that since she was the reciepient of one of the pistols then she needed to fill out a 4473 as well. I think it's just the personel preference of the particular FFL and their paranoia level concerning ATF. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:37:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
First of all, gifts between spouses are allowed. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Wall of text Stop It's not a straw purchase. It's his wife's card. I'm laughing so hard here. Just FYI - this is straight from the ATF to FFL's - look at page 2, second bullet point, they define their interpretation of the term 'actual buyer': http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/SHOT%20Show%202012/011912-detecting-avoiding-illegal-straw-purchases.pdf Specifically: "Actual buyer” selects firearm, pays for firearm, takes custody of firearm, etc. Doesn't say anything about making an exception for spouses paying... Second, this was not a gift, it was op using his wifes card, that I am assuming is linked to a joint account. Even if it's not a joint account, it doesn't matter. See my first point.
Gifts are allowed period as long as the party is legal to possess firearms. Spouse has nothing to do with it, and carries no special privileges. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:37:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
First of all, gifts between spouses are allowed. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Wall of text Stop It's not a straw purchase. It's his wife's card. I'm laughing so hard here. Just FYI - this is straight from the ATF to FFL's - look at page 2, second bullet point, they define their interpretation of the term 'actual buyer': http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/SHOT%20Show%202012/011912-detecting-avoiding-illegal-straw-purchases.pdf Specifically: "Actual buyer” selects firearm, pays for firearm, takes custody of firearm, etc. Doesn't say anything about making an exception for spouses paying... Second, this was not a gift, it was op using his wifes card, that I am assuming is linked to a joint account. Even if it's not a joint account, it doesn't matter. See my first point.
Dude, you are cracking me up. Scroll up a little, when I stated "It is perfectly legal to buy as a gift for your spouse." your instant reply was a succinct 'Again, false'
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:38:28 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Well I guess I'm guilty of a couple of straw purchases. I as well. My wife just bought me a Spikes lower before Thanksgiving as an early x-mas gift. Sounds dumb to me. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:38:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
your ffl did the right thing. If two people are going to own two pistols, you need two forms. fed law
Bought his and hers 1911's and paid for them only to have the FFL figure it that since she was the reciepient of one of the pistols then she needed to fill out a 4473 as well. I think it's just the personel preference of the particular FFL and their paranoia level concerning ATF. Not necessarily. He is the buyer if he is buying two guns and plans to give one to his wife. In that case, I'd say it could go either way. No harm in both doing the forms, but required either. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:38:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Buy a gift card with the CC. Then use gift Card for gun purchase. Is this really so hard?  |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:39:23 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere. |
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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:39:53 PM EDT
[#50]
OP was "borrowing" the money from his wife. He was the actual "buyer" regardless where the money came from. The shop may have had a legit issue with him using her CC but that doesn't make it a straw purchase.
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