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Posted: 12/4/2012 7:41:02 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
If had my name on an FFL and it was just some dude like you I didnt know personally. No way i would sell to you. If I am a mom and pop operation and you come in and I know you like a brother than probably yes. But based on what you say...no way.

"Based on what you say" ......what the hell does that mean?

Posted: 12/4/2012 7:41:46 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Wall of text

Stop

It's not a straw purchase. It's his wife's card.

I'm laughing so hard here.

Just FYI - this is straight from the ATF to FFL's - look at page 2, second bullet point, they define their interpretation of the term 'actual buyer':

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/SHOT%20Show%202012/011912-detecting-avoiding-illegal-straw-purchases.pdf

Specifically:

"Actual buyer” selects firearm, pays for firearm, takes custody of firearm, etc.

Doesn't say anything about making an exception for spouses paying...

First of all, gifts between spouses are allowed.

Second, this was not a gift, it was op using his wifes card, that I am assuming is linked to a joint account.

Even if it's not a joint account, it doesn't matter.

See my first point.

Gifts are allowed period as long as the party is legal to possess firearms. Spouse has nothing to do with it, and carries no special privileges.

correct

Posted: 12/4/2012 7:44:16 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Bought his and hers 1911's and paid for them only to have the FFL figure it that since she was the reciepient of one of the pistols then she needed to fill out a 4473 as well. I think it's just the personel preference of the particular FFL and their paranoia level concerning ATF.

your ffl did the right thing. If two people are going to own two pistols, you need two forms. fed law

Not necessarily. He is the buyer if he is buying two guns and plans to give one to his wife.

In that case, I'd say it could go either way. No harm in both doing the forms, but required either.

a private sale shouldn't require it. he obviously told his ffl that his wife would actually own one. "his and hers" hence the ffl requiring two forms

Posted: 12/4/2012 7:44:45 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Receipt will have one name while the 4473 will have another.
They can turn you away for w.e they want. Go get the cash and go back...

It would not have been a straw purchase regardless.

that may be the case but as a FFL I would not have sold the gun to him either.

if the wife would have been present perhaps in that case I would have.

Posted: 12/4/2012 7:48:38 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

Gander asked me for my home phone week before last.

I gave them 404-867-5309.

Posted: 12/4/2012 7:51:31 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

Gander asked me for my home phone week before last.

I gave them 404-867-5309.

Posted: 12/4/2012 7:53:51 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

I told the guy my home phone number was not his business. And if I had had one it wouldn't have been. I have a business cell phone, that's it. The 4473 had been filled out, approved, and the gun paid for. He came to the cash register and demanded a home phone number. When I refused, he had my money refunded. I don't have to give any number, real or fake, to some fuck making up his own rules in any store.

I called Dunham's corporate offices and asked why this was a policy. They knew nothing about it. Said they would deal with it. As far as I knew the guy was using home numbers to case peoples houses. Call home where guns are known to be, no answer, self or friends burglarize houses.

Posted: 12/5/2012 8:50:53 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

I told the guy my home phone number was not his business. And if I had had one it wouldn't have been. I have a business cell phone, that's it. The 4473 had been filled out, approved, and the gun paid for. He came to the cash register and demanded a home phone number. When I refused, he had my money refunded. I don't have to give any number, real or fake, to some fuck making up his own rules in any store.

I called Dunham's corporate offices and asked why this was a policy. They knew nothing about it. Said they would deal with it. As far as I knew the guy was using home numbers to case peoples houses. Call home where guns are known to be, no answer, self or friends burglarize houses.

They have your home address, and most people work during the day. No cars in the driveway and no lights are pretty darn good indicators. For the phone, many don't have landlines anymore. I don't think I'd worry about the phone number.

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:03:57 AM EDT

[#9]

Like others have said, the shop is not obligated to accept whatever form of payment you happen to offer particularly if it is NOT your credit card with only your word that it is legit. For all they know this could be a straw purchase or the card could be stolen. In any case, if there is a problem, there will be a clear record that the man who filled out the 4473 for the gun and the woman whose credit card was charged for the purchase price are not the same person

I would have passed as well. Too much risk just to make a sale.

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:20:31 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
OP was "borrowing" the money from his wife. He was the actual "buyer" regardless where the money came from. The shop may have had a legit issue with him using her CC but that doesn't make it a straw purchase.

1) The store absolutely has a legitimate issue with someone using a CC that is not in their name. So does the bank. If challenged by the cardholder, the underwriting bank could refuse to pay the money to the store. There is a reason why each card has an individuals name on it.

2) Whether or not the shop could prove this was an attempted straw purchase has nothing to do with it. The fact is the circumstances give some appearance of a straw purchase. If the ATF ever examined this transaction they would claim the use of a third party CC was a clear indicator that this could be a straw purchase (just the same as if a friend hands a fist full of 100 dollar bills to his buddy while he fills out the 4473). The burden on FFL holders is that they cannot complete a sale if they have reason to suspect it is a straw purchase not whether they can prove it or not.

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:27:46 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Well I guess I'm guilty of a couple of straw purchases.

My wife just gave me a dirty look when she got her CC bill one month.

. I always said is was always better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:30:00 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
false

Quoted:
On the form 4473 you have to state you are the actual purchaser of the weapon. If the receipt shows a different name (i.e. another person did the financial part of the transaction), it's grey enough that it could look like a straw purchase (why didn't the person who paid for it fill want out the form?).

It's still potentially a straw purchase even if both parties can legally own the gun, the crime is committed filling out the 4473 stating you are the purchaser when technically you may not be.

Most shops follow the 'the person who chooses the gun and pays for the gun has to fill out the form 4473' - anything else has the potential to get them, and you, in trouble - wrong or right it is the way it is. Even if your wife was with you and was prepared to fill out the 4473, the shop would still likely halt the transaction, since you picked the gun out...

eta

everything written there is false.

LOL... go read question 11 (a) on the 4473 and the instructions for it.

are you serious?

every single thing you have stated so far has been false.

please tell me where in .11a it states who pays for what, or how it's paid for.

it doesn't.

It's all in the interpretation of the phrase 'actual buyer' - if the money to complete the transaction is coming from someone else, you could argue they are the buyer, in which case you would be lying on question 11(a). Bear in mind this is the ATF we are dealing with, and should anything negative happen it'll be your attorney vs. the government arguing over the definition of the term 'actual buyer' - which is exactly why I used the term 'grey enough' in my original post. I agree completely that it shouldn't matter where the funds come from in the example above, but I also understand why virtually every FFL I know follows 'the person who chooses it and pays for it has to fill out the 4473' - as the OP found out. I've seen at least one other poster in GD be denied by an FFL because he picked out a gun and his wife tried to pay for it with him filling out the 4473 in the past couple of weeks - this thread keeps coming up, people get all hot and bothered, but it doesn't change the fact that FFL's have the right to deny anything that isn't a straight, clean transaction.

Or you could just go read the examples on the same form that state buying a gun as a gift for someone is perfectly fine and dandy....

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:32:06 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Buy a gift card with the CC. Then use gift Card for gun purchase. Is this really so hard?

Before I sold my business and retired I had this issue arise as I took some of my best lifelong customers to a funshop. Each picked out a very nice pistol and some accessories and we went to the cashier and determined the sales price. I then purchased a giftcard using my credit card for each of the customers in the predetermined proper amount. I handed the gift card to each of them and they then in turn filled out the 4773 and purchased their own gift. I felt that this was the proper way to handle things.

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:38:05 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

I just give out 867-5309...

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:41:32 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If both you and your wife are authorized to use the credit card, is it still a straw purchase? I would say that the purchase was from a joint account and that the name on the 4473 will be the person purchasing it.

Possibly. It is perfectly legal to buy as a gift for your spouse. If you are both authorized on the account, then surely you'd have a card in your own name so this wouldn't be an issue?

My wife and I have several joint accounts. there have been a few times that we managed to swap cards. The account numbers are the same, it doesn't matter which one of us signs.

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:42:48 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

Gander asked me for my home phone week before last.

I gave them 404-867-5309.

Sad part is, I know who has that phone number....

Well shit, I knew who *HAD* is. I just called her to see if it was still her number....

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:44:37 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bought his and hers 1911's and paid for them only to have the FFL figure it that since she was the reciepient of one of the pistols then she needed to fill out a 4473 as well. I think it's just the personel preference of the particular FFL and their paranoia level concerning ATF.

your ffl did the right thing. If two people are going to own two pistols, you need two forms. fed law

That is not a Federal law.

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:45:50 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bought his and hers 1911's and paid for them only to have the FFL figure it that since she was the reciepient of one of the pistols then she needed to fill out a 4473 as well. I think it's just the personel preference of the particular FFL and their paranoia level concerning ATF.

your ffl did the right thing. If two people are going to own two pistols, you need two forms. fed law

Not necessarily. He is the buyer if he is buying two guns and plans to give one to his wife.

In that case, I'd say it could go either way. No harm in both doing the forms, but required either.

a private sale shouldn't require it. he obviously told his ffl that his wife would actually own one. "his and hers" hence the ffl requiring two forms

Gifts are still legal.

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:46:28 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Bought his and hers 1911's and paid for them only to have the FFL figure it that since she was the reciepient of one of the pistols then she needed to fill out a 4473 as well. I think it's just the personel preference of the particular FFL and their paranoia level concerning ATF.

your ffl did the right thing. If two people are going to own two pistols, you need two forms. fed law

That is not a Federal law.

Correct in that it is not Federal Law. I can buy 10 handguns on a form and give away 9 of them to my law abiding friends for Christmas presents and be completely worry free....

Posted: 12/5/2012 9:53:59 AM EDT

[#20]

These threads always bring about a ton of ignorance in regards to straw purchases.

All that matters in regards to a straw purchase is intent. If you purchase a firearm for another person who does not fill out a 4473, it is a straw purchase. It does not matter if the other party is a prohibited person or not. The only exception to this law is if you are giving the firearm to another party as a legitimate gift.

In the OP's case, he selected the firearm, filled out the paperwork, and provided a payment method to the store. He was the actual buyer of the firearm and was legally purchasing the weapon. That is not a straw purchase. From a legal standpoint, the store was perfectly fine accepting his wife's credit card. The name on the account is irrelevant, as that has no bearing on who is purchasing the firearm. What matters is that the OP was the actual buyer. It would be no different than paying with a check from an account with his wife's name on it, or using a VISA gift card that has no name on it. The name on the account/credit card/etc does not dictate who is the actual buyer of the firearm. The intent of the buyer dictates that. You could have a credit card issued to Mickey Mouse and that doesn't change who is purchasing the firearm.

However, the store has the right to refuse a sale to anyone if they don't feel comfortable with the transaction. Although, I would have sold the OP the firearm in this case, it's the store's right to refuse the sale.

The issue of the credit card being a different name does bring up an issue with the merchant services. Since the card was used by someone other than OP's wife, and his signature will not match her signature on the back of the card, the transaction could easily be disputed and the store would forfeit the money.

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:06:14 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

I told the guy my home phone number was not his business. And if I had had one it wouldn't have been. I have a business cell phone, that's it. The 4473 had been filled out, approved, and the gun paid for. He came to the cash register and demanded a home phone number. When I refused, he had my money refunded. I don't have to give any number, real or fake, to some fuck making up his own rules in any store.

I called Dunham's corporate offices and asked why this was a policy. They knew nothing about it. Said they would deal with it. As far as I knew the guy was using home numbers to case peoples houses. Call home where guns are known to be, no answer, self or friends burglarize houses.

We take phone numbers if we need to have you come back for a correction, if you get a delay etc. we already have your info what's the big deal about a phone number... It's part of the 4473 paperwork.
I hate ppl like you who act like pricks.

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:12:47 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

I told the guy my home phone number was not his business. And if I had had one it wouldn't have been. I have a business cell phone, that's it. The 4473 had been filled out, approved, and the gun paid for. He came to the cash register and demanded a home phone number. When I refused, he had my money refunded. I don't have to give any number, real or fake, to some fuck making up his own rules in any store.

I called Dunham's corporate offices and asked why this was a policy. They knew nothing about it. Said they would deal with it. As far as I knew the guy was using home numbers to case peoples houses. Call home where guns are known to be, no answer, self or friends burglarize houses.

We take phone numbers if we need to have you come back for a correction, if you get a delay etc. we already have your info what's the big deal about a phone number... It's part of the 4473 paperwork.
I hate ppl like you who act like pricks.

What section on the 4473 asks for the phone number?

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:16:04 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Receipt will have one name while the 4473 will have another.
They can turn you away for w.e they want. Go get the cash and go back...

Doesn't make a difference.

Wife and I each bought pistols at the same time, I paid for both with my CC. Since there were 2 different 4473's, the shop did 2 sales.

No biggie.

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:17:21 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card.

Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules.

They're married. Same last name, same account.

Def not a straw buy, but it's their shop.

OP don't buy stuff you don't need on credit

Pfffft. Max that credit out.

Why wouldn't you carry as much debt as you can handle? What else is it good for?

Hell yeah. Got what, like 17 days before the world ends? He'll never have to make the first payment.

15 now

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:22:28 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card.

Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules.

They're married. Same last name, same account.

Def not a straw buy, but it's their shop.

OP don't buy stuff you don't need on credit

But how am I going to buy 5000 rounds of ammo thru the Internet without a credit card?

Just kidding, very wise words.

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:23:50 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If your names not on the card they shouldn't be accepting the card.

Straw purchase? Probably not, but their shop their rules.

They're married. Same last name, same account.

Def not a straw buy, but it's their shop.

OP don't buy stuff you don't need on credit

Pfffft. Max that credit out.

Why wouldn't you carry as much debt as you can handle? What else is it good for?

Hell yeah. Got what, like 17 days before the world ends? He'll never have to make the first payment.

Zombies don't take credit, they take ammunition. Which will you have when the apocalypse comes?

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:28:37 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

You don't know anyone you don't like enough to give out their home number? You must be really nice... I give out other peoples numbers all the time... the army recruiter, the bill collector, my girlfriend's husband... they don't need my number, someone else's will do just fine!

:)

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:46:57 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
What section on the 4473 asks for the phone number?

He's clearly saying that he asks for the phone number as part of the process in doing the 4473 paperwork, not that the form requires a phone number to be called in.

We do the same thing. We get a phone number in case there are any issues with the transaction that comes up after you've left. We've used them for anything from product recall notices, calling back a delayed customer, etc.

Posted: 12/5/2012 10:51:54 AM EDT

[#29]

What if he wanted to buy a pink cricket 22?

It's obviously not for him? Right?

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:00:52 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted: kinda what i thought...

Quoted:
Receipt will have one name while the 4473 will have another.
They can turn you away for w.e they want. Go get the cash and go back...

It would not have been a straw purchase regardless.

But in this day with so much to lose, the dealer has to ask himself if the appearances are worth it. Someone reviews it a couple of days later and things don't line up perfectly; it most likely is legit, but why bring doubt into your livelyhood? Life is a series of trade-offs anymore. Cover your assets.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:03:07 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What section on the 4473 asks for the phone number?

He's clearly saying that he asks for the phone number as part of the process in doing the 4473 paperwork, not that the form requires a phone number to be called in.

We do the same thing. We get a phone number in case there are any issues with the transaction that comes up after you've left. We've used them for anything from product recall notices, calling back a delayed customer, etc.

Maybe I'm just lucky that none of the places I shop ask for a ph#. I wouldn't give it out even if your store "required" it. Privacy and all that....

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:04:30 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If had my name on an FFL and it was just some dude like you I didnt know personally. No way i would sell to you. If I am a mom and pop operation and you come in and I know you like a brother than probably yes. But based on what you say...no way.

I respect your view. I really do. But why no way? Which part of that law is that breaking exactly?

You know how God gave Moses 10 commandments and the Jews put up another 603? As long as you obeyd the 603 you couldn't get close to the other 10. Same principle I believe.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:18:06 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If had my name on an FFL and it was just some dude like you I didnt know personally. No way i would sell to you. If I am a mom and pop operation and you come in and I know you like a brother than probably yes. But based on what you say...no way.

I respect your view. I really do. But why no way? Which part of that law is that breaking exactly?

You know how God gave Moses 10 commandments and the Jews put up another 603? As long as you obeyd the 603 you couldn't get close to the other 10. Same principle I believe.

That is a brilliant analogy that can go with several conversations I am currently involved with....

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:20:34 AM EDT

[#34]

Kinda cool that you have real separate CC's...all of ours are in each other's names too.

I would think they're just doing CYA according to their attorney's advice.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:22:42 AM EDT

[#35]

Not sure why they gave a fuck if same last name ala wifey but fuck them

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:26:09 AM EDT

[#36]

Not technically a "straw purchase" but the shop still did nothing wrong. They have no idea tat the credit card account is a shared account. All they know is that you are not the person who's name is on the card. i would have turned it down as well. For all they know, that is her separate account and you swiped her card from her purse. Lots of married couples have seperate accounts, or one spouse is on a short lease because they are irresponsible with purchases.

The right answer would have been to send in the wife, or use your own credit card.

I for one am glad when a merchant questions me when I hand over my card. Helps prevent identity theft.

My buddy has "check ID" written in place of his signature on the card, and gets salty if they DON'T look at it and ask him for ID.

Sorry OP, but complaining that they didn't accept someone else's credit card for your purchase is bitching up the wrong tree.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:30:38 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
The right answer would have been to send in the wife...

Sending his wife to buy the gun with her own CC would have made a perfectly legal purchase into a straw purchase. His wife is not the actual buyer of the firearm and has no intentions of giving it to him as a legitimate gift.

Quoted:
Maybe I'm just lucky that none of the places I shop ask for a ph#. I wouldn't give it out even if your store "required" it. Privacy and all that....

Ok, so you can maintain your privacy by being a prick about giving out a phone number, after we have a form with your name, address, DL#, DOB, and most likely, your SSN. The phone number is for your own benefit, so you're only hurting yourself.....

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:31:55 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Tonight i saw a killer deal on a .308. I didn't have the funds on hand for the purchase but decided to use my wifes credit card. The shops policy now states this is a straw purchase. I say its non of their business how I'm funding my rifle. The act of using cc that is in another persons name does not mean that i am going through the ffl process only to give the firearm to someone else which is truly the thrust of the straw purchase laws. Hopefully it will still be there tomorrow but the issue remains. Should a shop be able to deny the purchase? I'll hang up and listen.

Here's what I think...

Her credit card = her money = her purchase = her 4473 = her receipt = her gun.

Marriage = community property. End of story.
It really is that simple. Think about it.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:34:43 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The right answer would have been to send in the wife...

Sending his wife to buy the gun with her own CC would have made a perfectly legal purchase into a straw purchase. His wife is not the actual buyer of the firearm and has no intentions of giving it to him as a legitimate gift.

Quoted:
Maybe I'm just lucky that none of the places I shop ask for a ph#. I wouldn't give it out even if your store "required" it. Privacy and all that....

Ok, so you can maintain your privacy by being a prick about giving out a phone number, after we have a form with your name, address, DL#, DOB, and most likely, your SSN. The phone number is for your own benefit, so you're only hurting yourself.....

All that other stuff is public record (except the SS#, but I don't put that on the form anyway). My ph# is private, my SS# is private, and in my state, I don't have to get run through the system as I have a carry permit. I can be a prick because that info is not required.

It's always interesting to me that those people who think their way is right can refer to people like myself (a person exercising my rights) as pricks, when in fact, it's the assholes of the world trying to shove their shit down our (my) throats....

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:35:48 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The right answer would have been to send in the wife...

Sending his wife to buy the gun with her own CC would have made a perfectly legal purchase into a straw purchase. His wife is not the actual buyer of the firearm

What?

Says fucking who?

A married couple walk into a store and decide to make a purchase, whoever pays for it is the one actually buying it.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:39:22 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Ummm... If the ID and the card don't match, I won't make the sale, especially on high dollar items. Its not that hard to have your name added to that account, and have your own card issued. Its not the gunshop's fault, they're just covering their ass, because if the charge gets disputed, they are out a rifle and the money. Now if your wife was there with her card, I would think they would have made the sale in a heartbeat, if not, they are a bunch of dumbasses who don't like money.

This is the correct answer. As a merchant once you have to be very leery of anything that seems hinky with CC transactions because if there's an issue the merchant will lose out.

Some dude shows up with a card in a woman's name (same last name) it might be his wife's card and she's cool with it or it might be his separated wife and she's not cool with it or it could be his grandma's, sister's or mom's card and none of them know he swiped the card. Most businesses would decline that sale out of fear for being scammed. They don't know you from Jack and have no idea if it's legit.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:39:27 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The right answer would have been to send in the wife...

Sending his wife to buy the gun with her own CC would have made a perfectly legal purchase into a straw purchase. His wife is not the actual buyer of the firearm and has no intentions of giving it to him as a legitimate gift.

]

Not if she filled out the paperwork herself. And she very well could have stated she was giving it to her husband as a gift and it would have been legit.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:45:06 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Not if she filled out the paperwork herself.

Wrong. The fact that the OP wants the gun and is the actual person taking possession means it's a straw purchase. It doesn't matter if the wife fills out the paperwork and pays for it. OP is the actual buyer and the wife is not allowed to purchase it for him once that fact is established.

Quoted:
And she very well could have stated she was giving it to her husband as a gift and it would have been legit.

Which would be a lie, and still makes the transaction a straw purchase. She had no intentions of buying it as a gift and lying to the salesman doesn't make it legal. Especially since the OP already tried to buy the rifle, sending his wife in to buy it later should be an immediate red flag to the store of a straw purchase.

The laws regarding a straw purchase are based around intent. Although it's difficult to prove in court, buying a gun for someone and claiming it's a gift, when it isn't, is still a straw purchase.

Quoted:
What?

Says fucking who?

A married couple walk into a store and decide to make a purchase, whoever pays for it is the one actually buying it.

Says the ATF and the laws regarding straw purchases. OP is the actual buyer in this situation. He cannot leave and send his wife in to buy the gun, even if she pays for it and does the paperwork. She is not the actual buyer and she is not giving him the firearm as a gift. OP is the buyer.

This thread just goes to show how much misinformation there is out there, even on a supposed well-informed forum like this.

The actual buyer of the firearm is the one who is required to do the paperwork. In the OPs case, he is the actual buyer, and his wife cannot come in and do the paperwork to buy that gun. It's one of the first things the ATF will tell FFLs to look for in a straw purchase. If someone like the OP wants a gun, and then a family member comes in to buy it and do the paperwork, that's a huge flag that a straw purchase is taking place.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:52:58 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Not if she filled out the paperwork herself.

Wrong. The fact that the OP wants the gun and is the actual person taking possession means it's a straw purchase. It doesn't matter if the wife fills out the paperwork and pays for it. OP is the actual buyer and the wife is not allowed to purchase it for him once that fact is established.

Quoted:

And she very well could have stated she was giving it to her husband as a gift and it would have been legit.

Which would be a lie, and still makes the transaction a straw purchase. She had no intentions of buying it as a gift and lying to the salesman doesn't make it legal. Especially since the OP already tried to buy the rifle, sending his wife in to buy it later should be an immediate red flag to the store of a straw purchase.

The laws regarding a straw purchase are based around intent. Although it's difficult to prove in court, buying a gun for someone and claiming it's a gift, when it isn't, is still a straw purchase.

Quoted:

What?

Says fucking who?

A married couple walk into a store and decide to make a purchase, whoever pays for it is the one actually buying it.

Says the ATF and the laws regarding straw purchases. OP is the actual buyer in this situation. He cannot leave and send his wife in to buy the gun, even if she pays for it and does the paperwork. She is not the actual buyer and she is not giving him the firearm as a gift. OP is the buyer.

This thread just goes to show how much misinformation there is out there, even on a supposed well-informed forum like this.

The actual buyer of the firearm is the one who is required to do the paperwork. In the OPs case, he is the actual buyer, and his wife cannot come in and do the paperwork to buy that gun. It's one of the first things the ATF will tell FFLs to look for in a straw purchase. If someone like the OP wants a gun, and then a family member comes in to buy it and do the paperwork, that's a huge flag that a straw purchase is taking place.

Unless the husband is a prohibited person, this is all one big steaming crock of bullshit.

What makes matters even more retarded is that if/when said couple gets divorced,

is that she can walk with half the guns purchased during the marriage.

Posted: 12/5/2012 11:55:50 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not if she filled out the paperwork herself.

Wrong. The fact that the OP wants the gun and is the actual person taking possession means it's a straw purchase. It doesn't matter if the wife fills out the paperwork and pays for it. OP is the actual buyer and the wife is not allowed to purchase it for him once that fact is established.

Quoted:
And she very well could have stated she was giving it to her husband as a gift and it would have been legit.

Which would be a lie, and still makes the transaction a straw purchase. She had no intentions of buying it as a gift and lying to the salesman doesn't make it legal. Especially since the OP already tried to buy the rifle, sending his wife in to buy it later should be an immediate red flag to the store of a straw purchase.

The laws regarding a straw purchase are based around intent. Although it's difficult to prove in court, buying a gun for someone and claiming it's a gift, when it isn't, is still a straw purchase.

No. You are discounting HER intent. If SHE as the buyer intends to purchase it as a gift for her husband, it's legit. It's not a lie. If she fills out the paperwork, she is the actual buyer. Hell, they are a married couple with shared property, she doesn't even have to give it to him as a gift. She can keep it herself, and he has full access to it. Not a straw purchase.

Posted: 12/5/2012 12:00:36 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Unless the husband is a prohibited person, this is all one big steaming crock of bullshit.

What makes matters even more retarded is that if/when said couple gets divorced,
is that she can walk with half the guns purchased during the marriage.

It doesn't matter if the husband is a prohibited person. That is not what defines a straw purchase, and it doesn't matter according to the ATF. What creates a straw purchase is the intent. The buyer of the firearm (OP) is not filling out the 4473, someone else is, and that's all that matters.

Quoted:
No. You are discounting HER intent. If SHE as the buyer intends to purchase it as a gift for her husband, it's legit. It's not a lie. If she fills out the paperwork, she is the actual buyer. Hell, they are a married couple with shared property, she doesn't even have to give it to her as a gift. She can keep it herself, and he has full access to it. Not a straw purchase.

We know from the first post that the OP is the one buying the gun. He picked it out and he went to make the purchase.The wife had no intentions of buying the gun until it was suggested as a means to get around the credit card issue. That makes this a straw purchase.

Claiming that it's a gift is a lie. It doesn't matter if they are married and they share the gun. The store knows that the OP is the actual buyer and he sent his wife to make the purchase after he was refused. That is a straw purchase and it's one of the most blatant flags that the ATF tells FFLs to look for.

Posted: 12/5/2012 12:02:05 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

The shop can tell you they don't want to sell you a rifle for any number of reasons.

They didn't feel comfortable with the sale and they were covering their ass. I can't blame them too much for that.

First post.

Posted: 12/5/2012 12:03:12 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

this is why i give out the white house switchboard number to bogus people

Posted: 12/5/2012 12:04:14 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

I told the guy my home phone number was not his business. And if I had had one it wouldn't have been. I have a business cell phone, that's it. The 4473 had been filled out, approved, and the gun paid for. He came to the cash register and demanded a home phone number. When I refused, he had my money refunded. I don't have to give any number, real or fake, to some fuck making up his own rules in any store.

I called Dunham's corporate offices and asked why this was a policy. They knew nothing about it. Said they would deal with it. As far as I knew the guy was using home numbers to case peoples houses. Call home where guns are known to be, no answer, self or friends burglarize houses.

We take phone numbers if we need to have you come back for a correction, if you get a delay etc. we already have your info what's the big deal about a phone number... It's part of the 4473 paperwork.
I hate ppl like you who act like pricks.

What section on the 4473 asks for the phone number?

Right after the section for number of firearms.

Posted: 12/5/2012 1:01:28 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Dunham's refused to sell me a rifle because I wouldn't give the dickhead salesman my home phone number. Their loss. Bought elsewhere.

Apparently it was that hard to tell them 555-123-4567?

I told the guy my home phone number was not his business. And if I had had one it wouldn't have been. I have a business cell phone, that's it. The 4473 had been filled out, approved, and the gun paid for. He came to the cash register and demanded a home phone number. When I refused, he had my money refunded. I don't have to give any number, real or fake, to some fuck making up his own rules in any store.

I called Dunham's corporate offices and asked why this was a policy. They knew nothing about it. Said they would deal with it. As far as I knew the guy was using home numbers to case peoples houses. Call home where guns are known to be, no answer, self or friends burglarize houses.

We take phone numbers if we need to have you come back for a correction, if you get a delay etc. we already have your info what's the big deal about a phone number... It's part of the 4473 paperwork.
I hate ppl like you who act like pricks.

What section on the 4473 asks for the phone number?

Right after the section for number of firearms.

Definitely not after section 30a....

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - paying for firearm with wifes credit card (Page 2 of 3)

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