I ran Stage TWO,



As I stated on Enos.





I believe it was a safety decision as the plates were giving splat back, even from the posts, on the front wall.

The root of the problem was the stages were poorly planned, which led to people coming up with their own interpretations of the stages on Thursday that weren't consistent through the rest of the days, which led to the stages being changed halfway through the match, which led to a great many upset individuals. There also seems to have been some funny business in the team match results and some stage times that were rather incorrectly recorded on Thursday. Also I'm not sure how many targets got taped on Thursday.

It was a good match and I enjoyed it.  And I will be back next year.

The majority of the problem was the WSBs.   Not enough detail given to really govern how the stage was to be run.  As facts became available, the stage restrictions increased to make the stages comply with, as I was told, the MD's intent.

I'm used to "freestyle" stages where if its not prohibited by the rules or the WSB, then its legal.  Changes to a stage occur only due to safety requirements and shooters that got an advantage when they shot before the changes will be required to reshoot the stage.

On two stages I was not permitted to shoot them as I saw them shot on Thursday.   I (wrongly) assumed that the folks that shot them earlier were required to reshoot those stages for an accurate score.  

I don't think anyone was cheating but some did shoot the stage the best way they could based on the information they had at the time.  I also feel that some of those folks that should have been required to reshoot some stages were not asked to do so.  Probably due to time restrictions and a successful attempt to finish all shooting before the rains came.

Outlaw matches do not want long winded rule books like USPSA, but it would be wise to at least use some of the USPSA's rules as a guideline to help put on a good match.

Here's what the stages I shot looked like:











 

 

One basic tenet of organizing major matches for any firearm discipline:  Shooters must have a consistent competition experience.  

It looks like that idea went out the window at this match.

Brian Eno's has the most sensitive moderators I've ever seen.

Instead of moderating the folks who are posting against forum rules, they lock down entire threads.  Where are folks supposed to post their grievances and experiences about major 3-Gun matches, if not on the permiere message board for shooting sports, where the matches themselves are announced and discussed?

I'd still like to know if it's true that a DQ'd shooter on a 3 man team was replaced with someone else and go on to win.  That amongst some of the many other accusations dropped.

If there is this much smoke, there must be a fire.  Would love to hear something official from the MD on all of this.

Like I said,,



I ran  stage 2 the best that I can.



I ran it with My Wife and two sons. We did have lots of folks, tell us that they liked how we ran the stage, Fast and efficient. I am as frendly and Fair as I am able to be. I gave a few re-shoots and DQ'ed one guy,, his Pistol came out of the holster wile running to the last position. Always a thrill to have loaded guns bouncing around!



The comments I saw, about RO's getting, all this LOOT.  I signed up to run stage 2 in that BAY with the polls, a year out. I don't care if we get Loot,, or not,

the match fee for me and the Boys, being free for us RO'ing is more than enough,,,



I took 2 vacation days, and my wife took 3 vacation days, to RO the match. we took the boys out of school for two days, Thursday to shoot 7 of the 12 stages, and Friday to work the match. it is a one hour drive to and from the match from our house. buying food and all,,  So time and money adds up.  Its not FREE,, free,, to RO the match,,



Ro'ing the match allows me and the Boys to not pay a match fee, My wife shoots local matches, but did not want to shoot this one.   For the 3 of us with ammo travel and food, it would have cost well over $1000 for us to shoot the match. so being an RO allows Us to afford to do this as a Family.



Going in to the match as an RO I did not know what we may or may not get, for RO'ing the match, I'm very thankful for whatever we get from the generosity of sponsors.



As it turns out we got Lowers. Thanks to

Dreadnaught Industries LLC

I hope you are wrong Jessie.  I hope this match continues for years to come.

The 2014 Texas Multigun was my first 3 gun major match and me and the friends had a blast.

The stages were challenging, the ROs and staff were at all times cooperative and pleasant and the range is fantastic.  The nearly non-stop wind even reminded me of my younger years in West Texas.

There were a few problems that I did see (two stages run differently after the ROs had shot on Thursday).  But changes for safety reasons and fairness are acceptable as long as reshoots are required to those that got an unfair advantage as a result of a subsequent stage change.

Again, we had a blast.

And we will be there again next year.

Bill

I shot it for the last time in 2013.  Last year RO experience and quality varied greatly from stage to stage in my opinion.  Most ROs were doing their best under the circumstances. However, match fees and travel expenses were too high in my opinion to risk a bogus DQ.  

FWIW: I received a bogus DQ for a 180 voilation in 2012 that film later showed definately did not happen.  Then last year I had to argue (successfully) another attempted bogus DQ for moving a shotgun from a pre load position the start position a few feet away "while not under direct control of a RO" despite the fact a second RO told me to do exactly that.  

I have been shooting USPSA, IDPA and 3 Gun for over 30 years and have been a RO, CRO and even a major match director over that same span.  I saw this situation happening at TX multigun as just a matter of time. It is a shame.  A lot of good folks put a lot of hard work into that match every year.

TXMG 2014 RO here.

5 stages were torn down and rebuilt, but the last 7 were built the week before the match and shot by ROs the day before. Photos, paint and stakes were used to mark the locations. Certainly far from ideal but it saved a pile of money.

Stage 1 was tossed.

A big TXMG rules change for 2014 was allowing hot re-holster. It is allowed by 3gn (and USPSA even) so we allowed it this year. The change was pointed out at the RO match, so I guess somebody's head was up his butt. Not much more to say.

There is no excuse for safety violations. None. I ran some shooters and saw a couple that were REAL close but at my angle could not confirm the 180 break.

I wonder if whoever posted that had ever seen a bunch of really fast shooters make a run? You can watch someone who is kindof good, then watch Horner or Butler or Garcia have at it and they shave 10 seconds from "kindof good".  If you just see the times, and not watch it, it might look like cheating, but it isn't.

Bottom line, no changes were made to give any advantage.

Hey Lmccrock,

Since you were an RO there maybe you know, what was up with the Team Challenge?  I don't recall anyone ever answering the multiple questions on Brian Enos as to why a DQ'd team member would be replaced by someone else in the middle of the match.  And apparently at the direction of the MD.

I do not know what happened with the team competition.

I heard that one shooter was winning that stage on Saturday and I know that shooter DQ'd on Sunday. It made sense that he would be the one with the fastest time on the LR stage (which is what stage 8 was). Multiplying my time/score out gives me the time that I heard he shot it in. It looks like his scores weren't removed from the calculations.

 

That's the one. Stage 8 is the only one that's missing a winner in TO.

To all the 2014 TXMG competitors and Staff

I am new to this sport – shooting.  I obtained my first firearm, ever, in January 2014 (yes, this year).  I say this as to inform all reading my missive here that I have little knowledge of this sport as compared to most of you; yet I am learning more each day.  However, I can say and do, that this sport, like every sport I have participate in and officiated in – Hockey (age 5 to 27), Sky Diving (age 40 – 48), Long Distance Running (literally my whole life) – has its great share of pleased participants and enthusiasts and its fair share of cry-babies, whiners, distractors, “bitch-artists, and general miscreants.

First – if you see something wrong, state it immediately to the umpire, referee, or, in this case, the Match Director.  How many of you did that?  One, maybe two?  Definitely not three.  Now you minority few, hiding behind your keyboards, posting anomalously harsh remarks is childless, heartless, rude, narrow-minded, and completely self-centered.  You few all are truly showing your “colors” as “bitch-artists” and cry-babies”.   Truly ugly human beings.

Second – and the most important of all, if you see something that needs “a-fixing”, stand-up right then and be counted.  Help out.  Get things fixed.  Make the event and this sport better.  Period!  Instead of bitching, reach out and make a genuine offer to help fix things that you “feel” are off and need adjustment.  Stand up and be counted!  You will be doing a great service to the many and not just yourself.

I have known Sheldon for only one (1) year now and I consider him to be a very best friend; a friend, a man that will give you the shirt off his back, the pants from his legs, socks too, if you need it.  Sheldon is perhaps the most ethical and honest man I have known in my 58 years on this earth.  His character, in matters of principle, stands like a rock.  Sheldon’s integrity is beyond reproach; both on the playing field and in business.  Period!

Many gave up the entire week and even the weeks and months prior to this Match to ensure that this event could happen and asked and received nothing in return.  And greater yet, they did not expected anything in return.  These are the true heroes; the people that I can true friends.

I speak now to those that Sheldon “paid” out of his own pocket in product (you know who you are) to help with the construction, setup and support.  Where were you?  You offered no help and definitely no support!

I speak to those that only took what they could get (and the hell with the rest of the competitors and staff), I ask that you please return all the products you “took” so that it can be distributed, awarded, to those that actually participated, helped, and supported this Match.  That is being a stand-up and righteous person.  And yes, it is some of those are bitching the loudest.

So, I say this, if you did not like match, stay away.  Please stay away.  The Match will be better without you.

And to the 380+ that had a great time and a good experience, and truly had fun, I say thank you coming and trust that I see most of you again next year.  I welcome your friendship.

Signed,

Barnet

river_runs

I don't have a dog in this fight, as I didn't attend the match this year.  

But as an observer having read a lot of the feedback, it appears that quite a few people questioned rules at the time.  However they were not aware that stages weren't run consistently, until after the event.  It's kind of hard to complain about something if you don't know you are being screwed yet.  And in regards to posting anonymously, quite a few people voiced fear of retribution.  

But it seems to me, that when there is this much smoke.. there is usually a fire somewhere.  Quite a few credible members of the community have voiced what seem to be valid concerns in regards to how the match was run, points gathered and substitutions made.  Seriously, have you heard this much negative feedback about any other 3-Gun event in the past?  So obviously something went down out there.

What is making matters worse, is the continued silence from the MD.

One would think the MD would come out directly, address the grievances and explain why certain decisions were made.  But as the silence continues, the reputation of the match sinks.  And with that silence, the belief that something really shady went down, increases.  Which sucks, because we all want to see the sport expand and have success.

Unless these claims are addressed head on, I fear the reputation of the event and those involved might be tarnished forever.

I guess I should have gotten there on Thursday morning and watched the early crowd shoot the match so I could point out that the match I hadn't shot yet was not like the one they were shooting? It's going to be pretty hard to say something about that. I suppose that I could have pointed out that we should throw out half of the match stages. That doesn't really seem practical either though. Yep, I'm damn sure posting anonymously behind a keyboard and linking youtube videos with my name as the title.



This match got away from everyone before it had a chance to be fixed. When the stages (and stage briefs even!!!! We had to call Sheldon over to clarify a stage before the first shooter on the first day!) are proved out by the first squad of competitors, there are going to be problems. INCREDIBLY vague stage briefs are OK, but only if they're allowed to stay vague! Verbal stage briefs that are the REAL stage briefs are a TERRIBLE idea! This is the result of poor planning and coordination on the front end! Having an organized RO/vendor shoot is the way to solve this, but clearly that didn't happen, because the ROs and vendors did not shoot the same match that I did!



Since you've known Sheldon for the eternity of one year, and you're positive that his integrity is beyond reproach, you should probably know that he's already run off a bangload of match directors that used to help him out! Not only that, he's called and harassed AT LEAST 2 personal friends of mine (more like 4...a family of 3 and a personal friend) after the match for "ruining his reputation" by putting words on the internet. How about shoehorning another shooter onto the team that won the team match after one of the members on that team was DQd? Do those sound like actions that are ethical, honest, and prove integrity beyond reproach?



Yes, I do appreciate the actions of the ROs and those who set up the match. Those folks are A-OK in my book. They were trapped in circumstances beyond their control. However, due to the actions of the MD before, during, and after the match, I will not again choose to shoot TXMG with the same MD.



I don't want to start a fight, but I do want you to understand that these are all absolutely legitimate complaints. Major matches in general are typically a pretty tight ship. This was the leakiest mother f'r that I've even been to, and I've been to some pretty shady matches (and I'm not going back to those either).



 

Looks like an issue with the way the scoring program handles a DQ. The shooter was removed but the score stayed.

I had a good time. Not sure about all the drama.
Pat

The winning team consisted of Kyle Symiac, Nick Atkinson, and Chuck Anderson.

Chuck was DQ'd on the shoothouse stage after he fell and his loaded rifle broke the 180 and was pointed at the crowd.

Somewhere between him getting DQ'd and the awards given out, Nils Johanason was added to the winning team.

Those three took the STI frame that was given to them and never said anything about it.

I was disappointed in them.

I don't see how you could do this as a competitor, nor how a Match Director would allow it.  And the rumors are the Match Director encouraged the swap.  If this is true, I'll be looking or another monthly 3-Gun event to attend.. hell, another USPSA and Steel Challenge match as well, as the organizers not only run Texas Multigun, but Austin Lonestar Practical Pistol Club as well.  

I really hope this isn't true.. since I've been involved in competitive shooting, I've found that shooters and organizers pride themselves on high character and reputation.. this would soil the entire club as far as I'm concerned.

Sadly, those circumstances are not surprising based on observations about a couple of those competitors.

More to follow!!!!!



I and going to run a State Level 3 gun match 10-11-12 April 2015



at Copperhead Creek Marble falls!



I locked in the date with the range Yesterday!  Yes I met with them Easter Morning!
I'm working out details. but Mark your Calender!  

This HAS to be a good thing!

 

This is exciting to hear... can't wait for more information!

Mark Larue, we miss your involvement with the sport.

Take it up with Sheldon but bad mouthing him on an anonymous internet forum after the match is pretty low. I am sure you have his email if you attended the match.  I have ran a match up here now for over 6 years and mistakes happen and people will not always be happy. Its always best to give people the benefit of the doubt before challenging their integrity in an open forum.  
Pat

What is your beef with me? If you had bothered to have read this thread, you would have noticed that I didn't even attend this particular match.

Other folks who attended the match are making the accusations of funny business with stages, DQ'd people on a winning team being replaced outside of the rules of the match, and prizes awarded.  People also talk in person at other local matches, and lots of people are talking.

I've just heard enough at this point, that I'd rather support a shooting group that is transparent and addresses concerns head on in a public manner.  I've seen many a match director do just that on forums or publicly on their web pages when feedback or concerns are brought to their attention.  

Copperhead Creek seems to be doing things at a high level.. 3-Gun Nation choose it for their Southwest Regional.. I'll give them my money and support.

The match I'm putting together, will not be a 3 Gun Nation match.

yet 3 Gun nation is having matches at Copperhead.

YES Copperhead has a great facility. Match Quality is Important to them.



 

I don't have a beef with you and if I did I would go to you directly not post about you on the forum. I have read this thread and the one on enos and posted in both and I was at the match.
Pat

I understand that, I was just pointing out that Copperhead has been putting together some great 3-Gun matches as of late and 3-Gun nation chose them to host their regional event.

You are highly respected in the community as well James, looking forward to seeing what you pull together.

I'm sorry, you quoted me so I assumed you were talking to me.

What I don't understand is a lot of people are fine with publicly pumping sunshine about an event.. but if someone has a problem with an event, they are supposed to not talk about it publicly.  Public forums are for people to communicate publicly... it's about building community around a commonly shared interest.  If you announce an event on a forum, promote that event on a forum.. you should be prepared to accept feedback on that event and for damn sure, respond to complaints.

And call me crazy but personally, I want to hear about other people's experience at a match... whether its good or bad.  How a match is run and how the organization reacts to feedback and criticism plays directly into whether or not I'm going to spend roughly $300 in match fees, $300 in hotel fees, $300 in ammo not to mention take precious time off from work to attend.

As I mentioned before, I wasn't at this particular match.. but I've attended Texas Multigun matches before, therefore this was of interest.  As my time and money are both limited and valuable to me, I choose to spend them where I feel I'm playing on a level field.  From what I've heard from others in the past, experience personally at matches and now read in regards to this last event.. I've simply decided its time to move on.

This is the reason I think you should handle negative issues privately.
1. It puts people on the defensive and your not likely to have your point of view heard with an open mind.
2. There might be a misunderstanding and you can't un ring bells.

It is kind of like a leadership principle I was taught. Praise your guys publicly and correct in private.
Pat

In the short time Copperhead Creek has been doing 3 gun matches they IMPROVE every event. Big thing is they listen to the shooters. I live 20 minutes from both BOTW and Copperhead, only way I will miss a match at Copperhead is if I am so sick I can't get out of bed.

Jim, if you need a hand with the match at Copperhead let me know I will glad to help you in anyway.

Don

Yes we do! LaRue does it with style!

 

Yes

As I have stated, I'm putting together a Texas 3 Gun Match.  



To lock in Copper Head. I will need Money.  

 I will keep working the issue. and planning the match.



I hope  I can raise money and Sponsorship. to be able to lock in the April 2015 dates.

Open up registration.  That will get a little cash flowing into the project.