User Panel
Posted: 3/16/2015 8:02:46 PM EDT
Seeing the cold war is back on and early 1980's music is coming back in style (at least in my house) I wanted to take some time to pick everyone brains about NBC gear. Anyone else getting or have NBC gear scraped together? I have masks and NBC filters for the family, but I am thinking about getting at least a vintage Geiger counter and a few other preps. |
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I would be careful buying any of the old yellow radiation instruments. Many of these were in storage for years and years and are not calibrated.
When I worked for the state, we turned in pallets of the old equipment, and kept some for spare parts for instruments that were used for screening by small fire departments. Anyone with any kind of radiation hazard had modern Ludlum instruments. Regardless of the type, all of the instruments were on a calibration schedule. If you decide to move forward, be sure to find out about calibration period and costs. |
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Getting useful radiation data is not as easy as turn the instrument on and read the meter. Even if you are lucky and the instrument works correctly.
Most people without a background in this type of instrumentation and measurements will create fear where it may not be needed when they start hearing instruments click at a faster rate without any idea of what the radiation is or how dangerous it may or may not be. Me - I just have 30+ years of nuclear instrumentation experience. So what do I know? The 3 examples below are so different in measurement and instrumentation requirements that making sense out of your data can be difficult. To make it easy, radiation from door #3 can be so high and so deadly that even people who are in trained in these fields today would have a difficult time dealing with it. 1. Radiation from normal background. 2. Radiation found at Modern Nuclear Facilities 3. Radiation from a Nuclear Bomb Blast |
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I would be careful buying any of the old yellow radiation instruments. Many of these were in storage for years and years and are not calibrated. When I worked for the state, we turned in pallets of the old equipment, and kept some for spare parts for instruments that were used for screening by small fire departments. Anyone with any kind of radiation hazard had modern Ludlum instruments. Regardless of the type, all of the instruments were on a calibration schedule. If you decide to move forward, be sure to find out about calibration period and costs. View Quote How often do they need to be calibrated? Every couple of years generally? |
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Getting useful radiation data is not as easy as turn the instrument on and read the meter. Even if you are lucky and the instrument works correctly. Most people without a background in this type of instrumentation and measurements will create fear where it may not be needed when they start hearing instruments click at a faster rate without any idea of what the radiation is or how dangerous it may or may not be. Me - I just have 30+ years of nuclear instrumentation experience. So what do I know? The 3 examples below are so different in measurement and instrumentation requirements that making sense out of your data can be difficult. To make it easy, radiation from door #3 can be so high and so deadly that even people who are in trained in these fields today would have a difficult time dealing with it. 1. Radiation from normal background. 2. Radiation found at Modern Nuclear Facilities 3. Radiation from a Nuclear Bomb Blast View Quote I have no illusions about "walking the wastelands with my radiation detector strapped to my arm" Where do you suggest I go to start picking up just a bit of knowledge on the tools? |
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I have no illusions about "walking the wastelands with my radiation detector strapped to my arm" Where do you suggest I go to start picking up just a bit of knowledge on the tools? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Getting useful radiation data is not as easy as turn the instrument on and read the meter. Even if you are lucky and the instrument works correctly. Most people without a background in this type of instrumentation and measurements will create fear where it may not be needed when they start hearing instruments click at a faster rate without any idea of what the radiation is or how dangerous it may or may not be. Me - I just have 30+ years of nuclear instrumentation experience. So what do I know? The 3 examples below are so different in measurement and instrumentation requirements that making sense out of your data can be difficult. To make it easy, radiation from door #3 can be so high and so deadly that even people who are in trained in these fields today would have a difficult time dealing with it. 1. Radiation from normal background. 2. Radiation found at Modern Nuclear Facilities 3. Radiation from a Nuclear Bomb Blast I have no illusions about "walking the wastelands with my radiation detector strapped to my arm" Where do you suggest I go to start picking up just a bit of knowledge on the tools? Personally, I would not invest a ton of time, effort or money in it. I was on NBC teams for 10 years during the cold war and did the NBC defense NCO school in 1990. With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own. Sucks but that is just the harsh reality. Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear. Hell, I did it more than that and it still sucked balls. The most useful knowledge IMDO would be learning how to do OTE (optimum time of exit), basically it is a lot of number crunching so you want a calculator. It is how you determine the best time to leave after a nuke blast, to limit exposure based on among a ton of things, what type of structure/vehicle you are in, protective gear, distance to the blast, size of blast etc etc ad nauseum. Crunch all the numbers correctly and presto, you know the best time to leave your house, get in the car and drive far the fuck away. Or the best time to unass your Bradley and start walking. Even this is of limited usefulness, because you need to know the size and distance of the blast or the best estimate there of. The information contained on a CDM (Chemical Downwind Message) can be a factor and good luck getting that. The Army has issues getting that information out. An example, during desert storm, we got a CDM in January. That CDM was the only one we ever got despite me hounding the BN chem officer AND the AF pukes we worked with for one. THe only answer I ever got is, oh if you need one we will get you one. Doctrine at the time called for a new CDM every 6 hours. Because when the BC of NBC is in play, time is motherfucking critical and figuring out where that big cloud of Phosgene or Nerve Agent is heading accurately takes a lot of time. You can do a quick and dirty cheat to get an idea of if you need to unass the AO RFN, but plotting the shit out takes time. |
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X-nuke is something of an expert on Survey Meters and Geiger Counters, and has posted some excellent reviews of various models:
Eberline E-520 Ludlum 2401 series Radex 1503 Ludlum 25 Gamma-Scout Victoreen CD V-700 SE International MC1K Victoreen CD V715, CD-717 survey meters, V-742 dosimeter |
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X-nuke is something of an expert on Survey Meters and Geiger Counters, and has posted some excellent reviews of various models: Eberline E-520 Ludlum 2401 series Radex 1503 Ludlum 25 Gamma-Scout Victoreen CD V-700 SE International MC1K Victoreen CD V715, CD-717 survey meters, V-742 dosimeter View Quote Thanks. That is awesome. |
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Personally, I would not invest a ton of time, effort or money in it. I was on NBC teams for 10 years during the cold war and did the NBC defense NCO school in 1990. With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own. Sucks but that is just the harsh reality. Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear. Hell, I did it more than that and it still sucked balls. The most useful knowledge IMDO would be learning how to do OTE (optimum time of exit), basically it is a lot of number crunching so you want a calculator. It is how you determine the best time to leave after a nuke blast, to limit exposure based on among a ton of things, what type of structure/vehicle you are in, protective gear, distance to the blast, size of blast etc etc ad nauseum. Crunch all the numbers correctly and presto, you know the best time to leave your house, get in the car and drive far the fuck away. Or the best time to unass your Bradley and start walking. Even this is of limited usefulness, because you need to know the size and distance of the blast or the best estimate there of. The information contained on a CDM (Chemical Downwind Message) can be a factor and good luck getting that. The Army has issues getting that information out. An example, during desert storm, we got a CDM in January. That CDM was the only one we ever got despite me hounding the BN chem officer AND the AF pukes we worked with for one. THe only answer I ever got is, oh if you need one we will get you one. Doctrine at the time called for a new CDM every 6 hours. Because when the BC of NBC is in play, time is motherfucking critical and figuring out where that big cloud of Phosgene or Nerve Agent is heading accurately takes a lot of time. You can do a quick and dirty cheat to get an idea of if you need to unass the AO RFN, but plotting the shit out takes time. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Getting useful radiation data is not as easy as turn the instrument on and read the meter. Even if you are lucky and the instrument works correctly. Most people without a background in this type of instrumentation and measurements will create fear where it may not be needed when they start hearing instruments click at a faster rate without any idea of what the radiation is or how dangerous it may or may not be. Me - I just have 30+ years of nuclear instrumentation experience. So what do I know? The 3 examples below are so different in measurement and instrumentation requirements that making sense out of your data can be difficult. To make it easy, radiation from door #3 can be so high and so deadly that even people who are in trained in these fields today would have a difficult time dealing with it. 1. Radiation from normal background. 2. Radiation found at Modern Nuclear Facilities 3. Radiation from a Nuclear Bomb Blast I have no illusions about "walking the wastelands with my radiation detector strapped to my arm" Where do you suggest I go to start picking up just a bit of knowledge on the tools? Personally, I would not invest a ton of time, effort or money in it. I was on NBC teams for 10 years during the cold war and did the NBC defense NCO school in 1990. With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own. Sucks but that is just the harsh reality. Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear. Hell, I did it more than that and it still sucked balls. The most useful knowledge IMDO would be learning how to do OTE (optimum time of exit), basically it is a lot of number crunching so you want a calculator. It is how you determine the best time to leave after a nuke blast, to limit exposure based on among a ton of things, what type of structure/vehicle you are in, protective gear, distance to the blast, size of blast etc etc ad nauseum. Crunch all the numbers correctly and presto, you know the best time to leave your house, get in the car and drive far the fuck away. Or the best time to unass your Bradley and start walking. Even this is of limited usefulness, because you need to know the size and distance of the blast or the best estimate there of. The information contained on a CDM (Chemical Downwind Message) can be a factor and good luck getting that. The Army has issues getting that information out. An example, during desert storm, we got a CDM in January. That CDM was the only one we ever got despite me hounding the BN chem officer AND the AF pukes we worked with for one. THe only answer I ever got is, oh if you need one we will get you one. Doctrine at the time called for a new CDM every 6 hours. Because when the BC of NBC is in play, time is motherfucking critical and figuring out where that big cloud of Phosgene or Nerve Agent is heading accurately takes a lot of time. You can do a quick and dirty cheat to get an idea of if you need to unass the AO RFN, but plotting the shit out takes time. I will look into OTE. I dont mind number crunching. Or course getting information like size of blast and distance may be a bit of a guess. Communication will be very important post any kind of major event. Most of those scenarios seem to be "A nuke just went off, and I need to get from point A to B", when what I am looking for is "4-6 weeks after a bunch of bad stuff happened, and somehow I am not dead, I want to make sure that if I step outside I am not going to cook" or "Is this water safe to filter and then drink?" and "how much radiation is blowing in when it rains?" That being said, biological agents scare me more, and I think are more likely to be used in the future against Americans at home, but having some basic nuke gear and knowledge is not a bad thing in my book. |
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on the topic of naturally occurring radiation... those of you that live in hard rock mining or phosphate mining areas, have you checked your home for radon (Rn222)?... and if you smoke, check out the dangers from lead (Pb210) and polonium (Po210) in tobacco...
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With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own. Sucks but that is just the harsh reality. Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear. View Quote This. I wasn't an NBC NCO but when I went through BNOC we had a big block of instruction on setting up an NBC decon station. It was then that I realized we're FUBAR if we ever had to do this. The same system that cant seem to get a truck full of soldiers and a truck full of supplies to be at the same place at the same time ("Put your rucks on the deuce, we'll link up with it later"....riiiiight, famous last words before you spent the night without your ruck) had a very intricate set of plans for supplying all the required NBC decon gear, fresh MOPP gear and filters. Back then most of this gear had to be exchanged very frequently depending on levels of exposure. I think the newer gear has longer intervals. Either way, you still need a butt load of fresh gear on a regular basis nevermind a the resources to deal with all the contaminated gear, fluids & waste products etc. With the recent ebola situation in Dallas, I think we all saw first had how critical decon process and procedure is and one small mistake can be disastrous. In the military NBC stuff is taught and trained regularly (to much dismay..nobody enjoys it). Even then, most of the training is getting into the protective gear and there is a lot less time spent on actual removal & replacement of gear. In 10 years I only was put through a field decon station once and that was at JRTC where the NBC guys had to setup and do their thing as part of the situation at hand. Vast majority of us were 1st time NO-GO Best way to deal with NBC is don't be there when it happens which of course you have little to no control over. |
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If you want to have a geiger counter, I recommend you do something useful with it.
http://radiationnetwork.com/ |
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tag for later
I have one of the old civil defense ones. My grandfather was in a volunteer fire department and we had a couple of them when I was a kid no idea if it still works I've been thinking of getting a new one if I can find a reliable one that isn't too expensive there are supposed to be a variety of areas in WNY that have higher radiation than normal background levels and I'd like to confirm and also check areas I normally go to. Mainly just for curiosity |
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If I was to buy just one radiation measurement device, it would probably be a Ludlum 25.
It's small enough to carry with you almost anywhere, has excellent battery life, and is usable over a very wide range of radiation levels - all the way from "near-background" to "prepare-to-meet-your-maker". Typical uses would be: 1. Locating areas with the lowest radiation levels (survey meter) 2. Keeping a running tally of your personal radiation exposure (dosimeter) |
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People buy a $100 surplus survey meter and leave it in their basement.
Some type of alarming dosimeter would alert you when living your normal life and allow you a chance to get home or get out. I have a RadEye for work and it appears quite capable, but pricey. You can use some of the better units to determine direction by using your body as a shield and turning...when the reading goes up, that's the direction. The survey meter I used to use had a source in the cap that you could do a quick check on accuracy. Your plan on reacting may be more important than detecting...the detecting piece may be taken care of by emergency broadcasts or obvious indications. |
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If I was to buy just one radiation measurement device, it would probably be a Ludlum 25. It's small enough to carry with you almost anywhere, has excellent battery life, and is usable over a very wide range of radiation levels - all the way from "near-background" to "prepare-to-meet-your-maker". Typical uses would be: 1. Locating areas with the lowest radiation levels (survey meter) 2. Keeping a running tally of your personal radiation exposure (dosimeter) View Quote For $560 it better be good. I do like they are out of sweetwater though. |
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i have a couple of meters that i got from scrapping out some decommissioned labs years ago. they work. one is smaller handheld the other is a larger unit with a remote probe.
fun to play with but to be honest virtually worthless as a prep item in the real world. if you find yourself in a location where you need one.. you are already screwed for the most part. this would be much more useful if you were outside the area and using it to check in coming people and supplies for contamination. even then without training and equipment it won't matter much. |
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if you find yourself in a location where you need one.. you are already screwed for the most part. View Quote That's why the "plan" is important. If you can figure out the dose rate, you can decide what to do. Low dose/rate, shelter and shield. High dose while sheltered? Sit and cook, relocate to better spot, drive like hell? I'm sitting in the basement at some lower lever rate in the mR range...ok, sit and wait. Higher? Now what? You have to know when the rate is going to kill you sooner than it will take for levels to drop on their own or you decide that the current rate and accumulated dose is going to be worth the risks of traveling out of the zone. Bottom line is there's more to buying a surplus meter and thinking you're good. |
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That's why the "plan" is important. If you can figure out the dose rate, you can decide what to do. Low dose/rate, shelter and shield. High dose while sheltered? Sit and cook, relocate to better spot, drive like hell? I'm sitting in the basement at some lower lever rate in the mR range...ok, sit and wait. Higher? Now what? You have to know when the rate is going to kill you sooner than it will take for levels to drop on their own or you decide that the current rate and accumulated dose is going to be worth the risks of traveling out of the zone. Bottom line is there's more to buying a surplus meter and thinking you're good. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
if you find yourself in a location where you need one.. you are already screwed for the most part. That's why the "plan" is important. If you can figure out the dose rate, you can decide what to do. Low dose/rate, shelter and shield. High dose while sheltered? Sit and cook, relocate to better spot, drive like hell? I'm sitting in the basement at some lower lever rate in the mR range...ok, sit and wait. Higher? Now what? You have to know when the rate is going to kill you sooner than it will take for levels to drop on their own or you decide that the current rate and accumulated dose is going to be worth the risks of traveling out of the zone. Bottom line is there's more to buying a surplus meter and thinking you're good. there is a good bit to know about moving around in a contaminated area even in an evac. in general if you are close enough to an event to be worried about rad levels your likely already in the dangerous levels area. coms will be down and the likely hood of knowing where or even which way to go at that time will be very limited. levels don't really come into play that much and money would be much better spent on enough PPE to get you through several days/weeks of foot travel. without PPE there will be NO "good time" to leave the area as your getting constant exposure and low levels over time are as bad as high levels as exposure tends to be cumulative in most cases. http://www.epa.gov/radiation/understand/health_effects.html What kinds of health effects does exposure to radiation cause? In general, the amount and duration of radiation exposure affects the severity or type of health effect. There are two broad categories of health effects: stochastic and non-stochastic. Stochastic Health Effects Stochastic effects are associated with long-term, low-level (chronic) exposure to radiation. ("Stochastic" refers to the likelihood that something will happen.) Increased levels of exposure make these health effects more likely to occur, but do not influence the type or severity of the effect. Cancer is considered by most people the primary health effect from radiation exposure. Simply put, cancer is the uncontrolled growth of cells. Ordinarily, natural processes control the rate at which cells grow and replace themselves. They also control the body's processes for repairing or replacing damaged tissue. Damage occurring at the cellular or molecular level, can disrupt the control processes, permitting the uncontrolled growth of cells cancer This is why ionizing radiation's ability to break chemical bonds in atoms and molecules makes it such a potent carcinogen. Other stochastic effects also occur. Radiation can cause changes in DNA, the "blueprints" that ensure cell repair and replacement produces a perfect copy of the original cell. Changes in DNA are called mutations. Sometimes the body fails to repair these mutations or even creates mutations during repair. The mutations can be teratogenic or genetic. Teratogenic mutations are caused by exposure of the fetus in the uterus and affect only the individual who was exposed. Genetic mutations are passed on to offspring. Non-Stochastic Health Effects Non-stochastic effects appear in cases of exposure to high levels of radiation, and become more severe as the exposure increases. Short-term, high-level exposure is referred to as 'acute' exposure. Many non-cancerous health effects of radiation are non-stochastic. Unlike cancer, health effects from 'acute' exposure to radiation usually appear quickly. Acute health effects include burns and radiation sickness. Radiation sickness is also called 'radiation poisoning.' It can cause premature aging or even death. If the dose is fatal, death usually occurs within two months. The symptoms of radiation sickness include: nausea, weakness, hair loss, skin burns or diminished organ function. Medical patients receiving radiation treatments often experience acute effects, because they are receiving relatively high "bursts" of radiation during treatment. Is any amount of radiation safe? There is no firm basis for setting a "safe" level of exposure above background for stochastic effects. Many sources emit radiation that is well below natural background levels. This makes it extremely difficult to isolate its stochastic effects. In setting limits, EPA makes the conservative (cautious) assumption that any increase in radiation exposure is accompanied by an increased risk of stochastic effects. Some scientists assert that low levels of radiation are beneficial to health (this idea is known as hormesis). However, there do appear to be threshold exposures for the various non-stochastic effects. (Please note that the acute affects in the following table are cumulative. For example, a dose that produces damage to bone marrow will have produced changes in blood chemistry and be accompanied by nausea.) Exposure(rem) Health Effect(without treatment)Time to Onset 5-10 changes in blood chemistry 50 nausea hours 55 fatigue 70 vomiting 75 hair loss 2-3 weeks 90 diarrhea 100 hemorrhage 400 possible deathwithin 2 months 1,000 destruction of intestinal lining internal bleeding and death 1-2 weeks 2,000 damage to central nervous system loss of consciousness; minutes and death hours to days how long will it take your family on foot to travel 25-50+ miles miles wearing PPE and carrying supplies? 2-3 days? longer? even if your on the low end of the exposure curve in that time you have enough to be pushing lethal longer term levels. mix in the 100's or thousands of others moving out with you and an expectation of advanced care is pretty much nil. surviving an initial blast is easy. surving a few weeks after the event is the hard part. nukes are really one of those event where if it affects you, your fucked. many techs at fukushima died even getting to PPE with a small reactor event. anything large scale is pretty much game over for any expectation of long term survival. frankly i'd prefer to eat a bullet than die that way. jmho |
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If I was to buy just one radiation measurement device, it would probably be a Ludlum 25. It's small enough to carry with you almost anywhere, has excellent battery life, and is usable over a very wide range of radiation levels - all the way from "near-background" to "prepare-to-meet-your-maker". Typical uses would be: 1. Locating areas with the lowest radiation levels (survey meter) 2. Keeping a running tally of your personal radiation exposure (dosimeter) View Quote where could I buy one? |
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The most useful knowledge IMDO would be learning how to do OTE (optimum time of exit), basically it is a lot of number crunching so you want a calculator. It is how you determine the best time to leave after a nuke blast, to limit exposure based on among a ton of things, what type of structure/vehicle you are in, protective gear, distance to the blast, size of blast etc etc ad nauseum. Crunch all the numbers correctly and presto, you know the best time to leave your house, get in the car and drive far the fuck away. Or the best time to unass your Bradley and start walking. Even this is of limited usefulness, because you need to know the size and distance of the blast or the best estimate there of. View Quote http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/618130__ARCHIVED_THREAD____today_s_hypothetical_scenario_tac_nuke_goes_off_25_miles_away__your_next_10_moves__WITH_HOW_TO___.html http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/607398__ARCHIVED_THREAD____today_s_hypothetical_scenario__tac_nuke_goes_off_25_miles_away__your_next_10_moves__UPDATES__PG_4_.html ar-jedi |
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If I was to buy just one radiation measurement device, it would probably be a Ludlum 25. It's small enough to carry with you almost anywhere, has excellent battery life, and is usable over a very wide range of radiation levels - all the way from "near-background" to "prepare-to-meet-your-maker". Typical uses would be: 1. Locating areas with the lowest radiation levels (survey meter) 2. Keeping a running tally of your personal radiation exposure (dosimeter) where could I buy one? From the manufacturer. |
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I have 34 years of experience handling radioactive materials every day, all day. I just retired from over 31 years of service with a branch of the U.S. Government. Besides my formal schools at major Medical Centers I have completed schools at Sandia Proving Grounds, Oak Ridge and the Nevada Test Site. During my career I cleaned up radioactive spills of almost every medical isotope used in the United States. This includes 99mTc, Sr89, Ga67, Tl201 and many others. The worst was Strontium 89(used for pain treatment of bone mets) in drywall. Most of the spills were due to the carelessness of Physicians who ignored their training. Toward the end of my career I started performing the mechanical parts of the physicians job(of course with the physician "supervising") just to prevent the radioactive spills. We had the fancy digital Geiger counters which we call survey meters. We never called them Geiger Counters. My first task every morning was to check the function and calibration of all of our survey meters. Anyway, we had the fancy digital ones but when it came down to the nitty gritty of real spills to a man all of us(Techs, Physicists and Radiation Safety Officers) always picked up a Ludlum 14C with a Pancake probe.
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My reply was too long for one post. Here is Part 2 of my reply: My favorite Ludlum 14C was over 40 years old but the more I used it the better it worked. The 14C runs off of 2 D cell batteries. There are two things necessary to check on the 14C every day: battery test and accurate meter reading to a known radioactive check source. The normal check source is a 1 micro-curie Cs-137 plastic button source. As a non-industry person without a NRC license I do not think that it is legal for you to purchase or possess this type of source but there are legal ways to obtain a check source. I will not mention exact details of how to obtain your own check source but you can do an internet search and find the information. There are certain products available to everyone that will read just like that Cesium 137 button source, At work we had our source attached to a wall in a flip open lead holder manufactured for that purpose. Many people actually have it attached to the side of their survey meter with double-sided tape. The 14C is dependable but does not give a running total of your exposure. The funny thing is that no matter where I travelled for schools or work(Oak Ridge, Nevada or New Mexico) every facility utilized that Ludlum 14C with a Pancake probe made in Sweetwater, TX.
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This. I wasn't an NBC NCO but when I went through BNOC we had a big block of instruction on setting up an NBC decon station. It was then that I realized we're FUBAR if we ever had to do this. The same system that cant seem to get a truck full of soldiers and a truck full of supplies to be at the same place at the same time ("Put your rucks on the deuce, we'll link up with it later"....riiiiight, famous last words before you spent the night without your ruck) had a very intricate set of plans for supplying all the required NBC decon gear, fresh MOPP gear and filters. Back then most of this gear had to be exchanged very frequently depending on levels of exposure. I think the newer gear has longer intervals. Either way, you still need a butt load of fresh gear on a regular basis nevermind a the resources to deal with all the contaminated gear, fluids & waste products etc. With the recent ebola situation in Dallas, I think we all saw first had how critical decon process and procedure is and one small mistake can be disastrous. In the military NBC stuff is taught and trained regularly (to much dismay..nobody enjoys it). Even then, most of the training is getting into the protective gear and there is a lot less time spent on actual removal & replacement of gear. In 10 years I only was put through a field decon station once and that was at JRTC where the NBC guys had to setup and do their thing as part of the situation at hand. Vast majority of us were 1st time NO-GO Best way to deal with NBC is don't be there when it happens which of course you have little to no control over. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own. Sucks but that is just the harsh reality. Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear. This. I wasn't an NBC NCO but when I went through BNOC we had a big block of instruction on setting up an NBC decon station. It was then that I realized we're FUBAR if we ever had to do this. The same system that cant seem to get a truck full of soldiers and a truck full of supplies to be at the same place at the same time ("Put your rucks on the deuce, we'll link up with it later"....riiiiight, famous last words before you spent the night without your ruck) had a very intricate set of plans for supplying all the required NBC decon gear, fresh MOPP gear and filters. Back then most of this gear had to be exchanged very frequently depending on levels of exposure. I think the newer gear has longer intervals. Either way, you still need a butt load of fresh gear on a regular basis nevermind a the resources to deal with all the contaminated gear, fluids & waste products etc. With the recent ebola situation in Dallas, I think we all saw first had how critical decon process and procedure is and one small mistake can be disastrous. In the military NBC stuff is taught and trained regularly (to much dismay..nobody enjoys it). Even then, most of the training is getting into the protective gear and there is a lot less time spent on actual removal & replacement of gear. In 10 years I only was put through a field decon station once and that was at JRTC where the NBC guys had to setup and do their thing as part of the situation at hand. Vast majority of us were 1st time NO-GO Best way to deal with NBC is don't be there when it happens which of course you have little to no control over. I was in a medical unit when I did the NBC thing. It was also during the cold war. So we trained doing decon a lot(You think a detailed troop decon sucks? Try deconning litter casualties.). It was still going to be a nightmare if we were ever expected to use it. And the logistics sucked. During Desert storm we were doing all of the medical decon for KKMC and evacuees to there. We had enough STB to set up 1 decon station and it was not going to last long if it started getting used heavily. When I asked about more I was told meh, if we need it we'll get it. Since we had the same mopp suits through the entire war I was not confident. Another interesting thing about NBC. The army did a huge exercise in full mopp back in the 80's and made a training film on it. Once you hit mopp4 50% of all casualties were friendly fire. Bottom line, NBC fucking sucks and is about the only thing that scares the shit out of me, other than a nun with a ruler. |
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I was in a medical unit when I did the NBC thing. It was also during the cold war. So we trained doing decon a lot(You think a detailed troop decon sucks? Try deconning litter casualties.). It was still going to be a nightmare if we were ever expected to use it. And the logistics sucked. During Desert storm we were doing all of the medical decon for KKMC and evacuees to there. We had enough STB to set up 1 decon station and it was not going to last long if it started getting used heavily. When I asked about more I was told meh, if we need it we'll get it. Since we had the same mopp suits through the entire war I was not confident. Another interesting thing about NBC. The army did a huge exercise in full mopp back in the 80's and made a training film on it. Once you hit mopp4 50% of all casualties were friendly fire. Bottom line, NBC fucking sucks and is about the only thing that scares the shit out of me, other than a nun with a ruler. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own. Sucks but that is just the harsh reality. Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear. This. I wasn't an NBC NCO but when I went through BNOC we had a big block of instruction on setting up an NBC decon station. It was then that I realized we're FUBAR if we ever had to do this. The same system that cant seem to get a truck full of soldiers and a truck full of supplies to be at the same place at the same time ("Put your rucks on the deuce, we'll link up with it later"....riiiiight, famous last words before you spent the night without your ruck) had a very intricate set of plans for supplying all the required NBC decon gear, fresh MOPP gear and filters. Back then most of this gear had to be exchanged very frequently depending on levels of exposure. I think the newer gear has longer intervals. Either way, you still need a butt load of fresh gear on a regular basis nevermind a the resources to deal with all the contaminated gear, fluids & waste products etc. With the recent ebola situation in Dallas, I think we all saw first had how critical decon process and procedure is and one small mistake can be disastrous. In the military NBC stuff is taught and trained regularly (to much dismay..nobody enjoys it). Even then, most of the training is getting into the protective gear and there is a lot less time spent on actual removal & replacement of gear. In 10 years I only was put through a field decon station once and that was at JRTC where the NBC guys had to setup and do their thing as part of the situation at hand. Vast majority of us were 1st time NO-GO Best way to deal with NBC is don't be there when it happens which of course you have little to no control over. I was in a medical unit when I did the NBC thing. It was also during the cold war. So we trained doing decon a lot(You think a detailed troop decon sucks? Try deconning litter casualties.). It was still going to be a nightmare if we were ever expected to use it. And the logistics sucked. During Desert storm we were doing all of the medical decon for KKMC and evacuees to there. We had enough STB to set up 1 decon station and it was not going to last long if it started getting used heavily. When I asked about more I was told meh, if we need it we'll get it. Since we had the same mopp suits through the entire war I was not confident. Another interesting thing about NBC. The army did a huge exercise in full mopp back in the 80's and made a training film on it. Once you hit mopp4 50% of all casualties were friendly fire. Bottom line, NBC fucking sucks and is about the only thing that scares the shit out of me, other than a nun with a ruler. yup.. i was on the bio side of the house and anyone that thinks they are going to live and work in this stuff for a few days is living in a fantasy land. a few hours is literally debilitating to someone not used to wearing it everyday. |
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I like the Ludlum analog meters. Having to manually change the scale is a reminder that things are getting more interesting.
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