.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: As my best friend says, "Let me shoot you with a 9mm +P and then a .45, and you tell me which one hurts the most." That argument is as fscking stupid today as it was when it was first uttered. "Well, let me run you over with a Civic and then with a Ram and you tell me which hurts the most."  Geeze, oh, please! If your determining factor is either, "this is cheaper to practice with" or "shooting this hurts my pussy" then fsck you.  May you be removed from the gene pool before you procreate. Fucking pansies. mmmmm....Okay DeCaf, DeCaf, DeCaf

Hmmm, haven't had any caffeine in at least three days.  However, the argument still stands.  If you're spending so much time on sub-.40-caliber apologetics, take the cost of one case of 9mm and invest it in freeweights and a backbone!  

/inadvertant double-tap/

According to a balistician on this website good self defense ammo in all the auto calibers aside from 10 mm will deposit almost exactly the same energy in a target.  With in 10% of each other.  So as long as you have decent ammo it really is personal preference.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Considering the criteria you listed, it amazes me all the people who actually voted for the .45 which is the worst of the bunch for items 2-5 No personal defense ammo is cheaper than a 9mm No semi-auto of equal size and weight can hold more rounds than the 9mm No ammo of any type other than .22LR is easier to find than 9mm No personal defense ammo is easier to shoot well (for wives or anybody else) than the 9mm. If the right ammo is used and the shot is well placed, a 9mm will stop a person just as easily as a .40 or .45. If shot placement is poor, a .40 or .45 is just as ineffective as a .22LR. Don't fall for all of the bigger is better BS. #2 Cost is subjective. What is your life worth? #3 8 rounds of 45 with good shot placement is 8 kills (with 7 round mags, 9 with 8 round mags), where as the Miami shoot out showed that more than 2 rouns of 9mm were required to stop the bad gun, so that is only 7.5 bad guys for 15 founds, 8 if you top of w/16 in a 15 round gun. #2 he didn't ask "value of ammo". If he had then maybe you would have an argument about it being subjective. He asked "cost of ammo". There is no argument about whether the 9mm is the least expensive #3 15-17 rounds of good JHP 9mm with good shot placement is 15-17 kills. It is a fallacy to believe that a BG can't be taken out with one 9mm round. But let's assume for a minute you are right, it takes two shots of 9mm for every one shot of a .45. How many of us here will ever go up against 8 BG's? If someone did, the chances of you being able to get a clean shot off on all 8 of them is slim to none. You'd be better off trying to use suppressing fire at them to either keep them at bay or to get the hell out of there. Either way 15-17 rounds of anything will be more useful than 7-8 rounds of anything else. How does one achieve proper shot placement? Practice, practice, practice! You can say all you want about "what is your life worth" but in the real world, most of us have a limited budgets that we have no choice but to consider. Most people can not afford to practice with .45 ammo anywhere near as much as they can with 9mm. I have no problem with you guys who prefer the .45 for whatever your reasons are. What you guys need to keep in mind is, just because it may be the right choice for you, that doesn't mean that it is the right choice for everybody else. Given Nate's criteria, it seems clear to me that the 9mm is the right choice for him.

WTF OVER?

Ok first of all I think you need to get some practice shooting in a stressed environment.  You think you're going to shoot 15 bad guys, all in the head or cns with a 9mm when your hands shake so bad you could mix paint between the shelf and the register?  If you have 15 people on your ass standing your ground is not an option.  

Suppressing fire?  This isnt rambo.  You are accountable for every round that leaves your barrel.  You CANNOT fire indiscrimanently in the general direction.  When you shoot billy, his grandma and thier dog instead of handing some crack head your wallet what do you think the judge will say when your explanation is "suppressing fire"?

Just carrying more rounds in a pistol does not qualify it as better.  You only need 2-5.  In 99% of defensive shootings no more than 3 rounds are fired.  In 99% of gun fights no more than 6 rounds are exchanged.  What good do those extra 9 rounds do you in your mag if you wont use them?

.45 is too expensive?  You cant afford $2 more a box?  WTF!  I realize people are on a budget but its $2!  Thats bullshit. You do need to practice with the same ammo you carry but you dont need to do that exclusivly.  Surplus .45 is available at very low prices.


Now all that being said, I voted for 9mm being that its potent enough to do what you need to do and cheap which met your criteria.  I personally carry .45 because I like the round, I like the gun and it meets my criteria.  I would carry a 9mm, I have before.  I dont have one to carry at the moment anyway.  I just bought a .40 and we'll see if I like carrying that one.  Id feel no less protected with any of them.  I'm going to have to check out 10mm here in the future to see what I can do with it and if its a viable option for me.  When I compete I plan on using .357 sig +p just for the flat trajectory.  If what ever pistol I have in .357 sig doesnt group like I want it I'll use my 1911 that I carry since I can shoot the president off a dime with it.

The best self-defense caliber is the largest you can shoot effectively with confidence.  I'm a bigger guy and prefer the .45 ACP.  In the end, the only important factor is shot placement.

Quoted: Quoted: As my best friend says, "Let me shoot you with a 9mm +P and then a .45, and you tell me which one hurts the most." That argument is as fscking stupid today as it was when it was first uttered. "Well, let me run you over with a Civic and then with a Ram and you tell me which hurts the most."  Geeze, oh, please! If your determining factor is either, "this is cheaper to practice with" or "shooting this hurts my pussy" then fsck you.  May you be removed from the gene pool before you procreate. Fucking pansies.

What crawled up your ass and died. Both arguments that you're crapping upon are valid. For smaller people or people who plain can't get to the range as often as they like, then a smaller more controllable caliber is totally viable. Plus, I don't have a damn money tree growin' in my backyard. I'd rather spend what money I do have on the most I can get instead of goin' to the range, shooting a box and then packin' up. A J frame smith in the hands of a person who knows how to use it is more lethal than a 1911 in the hands that have just fired a couple a shots because they couldn't afford some real practice time.

+1
for the middle of the road .40.

Shove the assumptions, thankyouverymuch.

Assuming that someone with a more effective round is going to practice less is just silly.  Sure, it's cheaper to shoot .22 than it is to punch paper with .44, but don't apply that as a univeral constant, for Chrissakes!

Dry-fire drills can more than compensate (cost-wise) for lack of stand-up, paper-punching range time.  Dry-fire is a very effective and riduculously overlooked training technique.  The same can be said for having a weaker pistol (i.e. .22lr or 9mm) for bagging the B-27's and a "major" caliber for daily carry.  So long as the models are similar, the muscle memory will pertain.

Hell, I KNOW a four-banger would be more efficient for my daily commute.  Does that mean I'm going to trade my V8/4wd any time soon?  Negative, ghostrider.  I'll hang onto my true iron, thanks.  It's far better to have it and not need it than vice-versa.

Just get a 9mm and be done with it. You've got hundreds of different guns to choose from and you can pick up a Carbine at a later date or even just get a new upper for your AR(you do have an AR, don't you?) and a mag block and convert it. Plus there are 9mm like the Glock 26 that'll fit in the palm of your hand and tuck away nicer then even a 38 snub.  Recoil is no big deal, ammo is world wide and modern hollow points are as effective as just about anything out there.  

I may have a couple of evil bullet hoses, but though they are all chambered in 5.56...

So all I need for a 9mm AR is a 9mm complete upper, magwell adapter, and mags to go with a standard lower?

Right now I'm leaning toward aquiring a Springfield XD subcompact, but other projects keep draining available funds... (see above)

Write in vote for .50!  

Quoted: Write in vote for .50!

Let me guess, .50 BMG...

In my Navy Seal days when we were off duty on leave we carried around Uzi's and Mac 10's because those were what we trained with.  But whenever I had to kill somebody I always used hand to hand combat. *swings arms around and makes ninja sounds*

What?
No votes for .380 ?

22 magnum

BEST revolver cartr.=357MAG (.)                                                                                                       BEST auto Cartr.=......357SIG  (.)                                                                                                      Ultimately it does boil down to user confidence.

Bigger is better, i don't care what anyone says.  .45 ACP all the way!

Quoted: 45-70 from a Magnum Research.

Ya know, I think someone actually makes a derringer for that caliber.  Imagine the felt recoil from that!

   
""Hmmm, haven't had any caffeine in at least three days. However, the argument still stands. If you're spending so much time on sub-.40-caliber apologetics, take the cost of one case of 9mm and invest it in freeweights and a backbone! ""


Actually, I used to be in this mindset untill I couldn't find a 1911 that worked right out of the box.  Not caring for the size and feel of other .45 handguns, I went with a 9mm. I'm not saying I'm some high speed/ low drag gunfighter or anything but I can put more rounds on target  faster with a 9mm than I could with a .45. You can say say what you want about my manhood or whatever. After  having such good results with the 9mm I am even thinking about selling my last .45 so I can buy more mags and I'm certianly not going to call someone a pussy for not likeing my opinion.

Quoted: Shove the assumptions, thankyouverymuch. Assuming that someone with a more effective round is going to practice less is just silly.  Sure, it's cheaper to shoot .22 than it is to punch paper with .44, but don't apply that as a univeral constant, for Chrissakes! Dry-fire drills can more than compensate (cost-wise) for lack of stand-up, paper-punching range time.  Dry-fire is a very effective and riduculously overlooked training technique.  The same can be said for having a weaker pistol (i.e. .22lr or 9mm) for bagging the B-27's and a "major" caliber for daily carry.  So long as the models are similar, the muscle memory will pertain. Hell, I KNOW a four-banger would be more efficient for my daily commute.  Does that mean I'm going to trade my V8/4wd any time soon?  Negative, ghostrider.  I'll hang onto my true iron, thanks.  It's far better to have it and not need it than vice-versa.

OK - well lets shove the stupid analogies as well then shall we?

My points as to why the 9mm is the right choice, considering the original poster's stated requirements\concerns, still stand and have yet to be debunked, silly 4x4 comparisons aside.

But let's turn this around for a minute for all you .45 nuts... Aside from the same old tired "bigger is better" BS, explain to me exactly what you think it is that a .45 can do that a 9mm can't? Does shooting someone with a .45 some how make them more dead?

   I have always been a 45 ACP buff.  But speaking with several law enforcement folks I am coming to believe that the 9mm can be just as effective.  Granted you will get more tissue damage from a larger caliber but a 9mm to the heart (or head) has the same effect as a 45.  Also keep in mind one of the reasons the army decided to go to a large caliber pistol back around WW1 was the fact that some armies still used cavalry and the Army needed a round that could halt a charging horse!  I have never been in a gunfight but if I ever am in that unfortunate situaton I will be putting more than one round into my adversary, be it a 9mm or 50 AE!  

I will have to admit that I am a bigot, concerning handguns and calibers.
If it ain't a 1911 platform, not plastic either, and chambered for .45acp it is inferior.... ok I done with that!
Based on these atatements it should be easy enough to tell what my favorites are.....

Now I think just about every caliber has its place and purpose. As far far as what is "Best" that is a very subjective and personal descision in my opinion.

I have several pistols, several in different calibers, and each has a "best" purpose. That best purpose my be for ease of concealment in a give circumstance or high round count when not concealed.
It varies.  The whole point is what is best for me may not be best for you. What is deemed by some beuracrats to be best for our military and or police doesn't necesarily make it "The Best".

As a free, non military or LEO, citizen I have the option to choose.

Military personnel don't as a whole have the option. The same is true of many law enforcements agencies and police departments.

All handgun cartridges are inherrantly weak and the ones in discussion (9, 40,45 and even both 357s) have about the same ability to penetrate organs from non-optimal angles, therefore the one most likely to hit the vitals by the shooter is the better round.

However, the 9mm rounds (this includes .357s) with the best hollowpionts in the best of circumstances, have a maximum expansion of about .65 of an inch; again this is the best.  Yet the best 45 (under the same conditions) expands to .75...

I feel the gain in frontal diameter (however slight) is an advantage, as this increases the possibility of a vital hit; but this statement is based soley on the shooters abilities.

Essentially, I believe in the philosophy of shoot the biggest round you can fire accurately and repeatedly!!  

Just food for thought....

Quoted: .40 for me, Have 2 XD .40's already ( sub-compact and service) and going to buy a 3rd (tactical). I like the size of the pistol, the diameter the .40 expands to and the capacity of the magazines. Yep, I took the middle road, fits me best as far as versatility goes without buying a bunch of different calibers.

  +1