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Posted: 12/3/2012 2:31:42 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I found it mostly boring and hated the woman teaching it. Me and my gf left after lunch.

Didn't do well, huh.

No offense, but you seem to be hung up on "the patch".
From what I gather, it's about learning technique, fundamentals, and heritage rather than making the patch the main goal.

True. But it is a goal worthy of striving to achieve none the less.

IME, most folks who poo-poo the Appleseed events either can't shoot well enough to achieve the patch and/or don't have the patience to learn to shoot well. Their egos make them quit. Since they were unable to achieve the patch Appleseed sucks.

Posted: 12/3/2012 2:44:29 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I went to one and I thought it sucked. The instructors were making fun of my rifle , Stag M4, and one of the instructors wouldn't leave me alone. They said my rifle is for "kicking doors down" and not for shooting long distance. I countered and mentioned that its a good thing we are only shooting at 25 yards.

Sounds like a buncha fudds running the event at that location. The two I've attended (TX and OK) were nothing like that.

The first one I went too was full of .mil, contractors and TimJ from here. It was awesome. The next two not so much. I somewhat dislike the nostalgia for the old school service rifle and the hate for the AR that sometimes comes from the appleseeds. Mostly out of insecure instructors not really having a clue what to tell you if it is not "dragging wood" or proper sling setup. I went with a two point sling one year and got the instructors all sorts of confused. It is a great time though. Well unless you are shooting and someone runs out of the pit during live fire. or the guy next to you lights up your target and you don't have a chance to ever see how you shot at 400yards because you don't know what shot is yours.

Posted: 12/3/2012 2:45:25 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I went to one and I thought it sucked. The instructors were making fun of my rifle , Stag M4, and one of the instructors wouldn't leave me alone. They said my rifle is for "kicking doors down" and not for shooting long distance. I countered and mentioned that its a good thing we are only shooting at 25 yards.

Did you earn the patch?

No. No patch was earned.

Posted: 12/3/2012 2:50:52 PM EDT

[#4]

I actually would have preferred even more focus on learning rather than 7 or 8 aqt's in rapid succession, just trying to hope foe a good one.

I would like to see:

-starting by firing a series of groups prior to instruction from each position. Keeping those targets and studying them.

-A group demo on a given position.

-Then head back to line and practice the technique extensively for 15-20 minutes. During this tine there is no live fire. Just working on applying what the position demo showed. Get into position, shift around, adjust slings, rifles, etc. Ask questions. Prepare mats. Etc.

-Instructors roam line, examining and helping and .nswering questions. Moving your feet around, etc.

-then fire groups using the technique. Compare targets. Look for patterns like stringing. Adjust sights. Etc.

-Then work on New position in same manner.

-maybe do 3 aqts to end it.

Posted: 12/3/2012 2:55:47 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
I plan on doing my 3rd one next year, maybe take my wife along for her first time, but she's really really new to guns, so I dunno if she's quite ready for the intensity of it.

My first two 'seeds I did with a horribly inaccurate AR15 with .223. The second was with a horribly unreliable .22 Conversion kit in a different AR.

I have a Marlin Mod 60 that I might use if I can figure out a good way to load that dang tube mag quickly. I'm a bit gunshy about doing another one with the 'wrong' rifle. I am really fighting the urge to just go buy a 10/22 and set it up right as a proper LTR just for Appleseed...

At the Appleseeds I've been to they always ask at the beginning if someone intends to use the Marlin Model 60. There's nothing wrong with it, they'll just give you slightly different directions for handling the course of fire.

There is no "wrong" rifle as long as it can be safely handled and fired. I've heard from one of the instructors that a guy managed Expert with a single-shot bolt rifle.

Posted: 12/3/2012 3:09:25 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I actually would have preferred even more focus on learning rather than 7 or 8 aqt's in rapid succession, just trying to hope foe a good one.

I would like to see:

-starting by firing a series of groups prior to instruction from each position. Keeping those targets and studying them.

-A group demo on a given position.

-Then head back to line and practice the technique extensively for 15-20 minutes. During this tine there is no live fire. Just working on applying what the position demo showed. Get into position, shift around, adjust slings, rifles, etc. Ask questions. Prepare mats. Etc.

-Instructors roam line, examining and helping and .nswering questions. Moving your feet around, etc.

-then fire groups using the technique. Compare targets. Look for patterns like stringing. Adjust sights. Etc.

-Then work on New position in same manner.

-maybe do 3 aqts to end it.

There just isn't enough time to do this in one day, number of AQTs shot/scored notwithstanding. I sympathize- and actually felt the same way after my first Appleseed- but it's not practical.

You can do this at any time when "everyone else" is shooting their AQTs and/or other drills (so long as you're hands-off and cleared when the actual cease-fire/unload/dress is called, the only difference is that you aren't shooting and don't have live ammo with you). You don't HAVE to live-fire and/or stress about the restrictive timings if you don't want to. I actually did "skip" a couple AQTs so I could practice getting into positions during the entire "hot range" time; you get a whole 10 minutes during the final prone slow-fire string of the test- why not use it the way you want to then? I think you can even handle your guns during "cold range" (but NOT when others are down-range) if you get permission ahead of time.

All the other stuff you listed are just variations of what the instruction/practice is supposed to be during the "black square" periods. Did you not shoot 1" black squares at 25 yards? That's a major deviation from what I believe to be standard practice, if true.

Posted: 12/3/2012 3:17:31 PM EDT

[#7]

Yes, we shot squares.

It was more like this:

Group demo.
Go back to line.
"shooters prep"
(by the time you barely have slung up and are just getting into position, they are now calling load . )

"load"
"Fire."
Then they sorta walk the line and tell you things as you are firing. But at that point, you have a lot on your plate.

In my mind, The time is better spent practing dry with feedback, rather than launching rounds before you even practice the position.

---------
Crap, I wish I would have thought of
ot shooting the aqt in favor of just practicing positions to see what was more stable.

I did sit out a couple aqt's only because I knew I was losing focus after the 5th straight one. It seemed a little pointless to continue.

Posted: 12/3/2012 3:37:22 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Anyone that I talk to in person that scoffs at Appleseed I tack up a one inch square at 25 yards and have them try to make the hit. Frontiersmen could do it with a smoothbore black powder rifle 200 years ago, You certainly should be able to.

I have doubts that this would be possible repeatable with smoothbore muskets. (rifles have rifling) .

I Need to do some reading up.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2010/09/23/featured_rifles_bess_092407/

Interesting tests and the following excerpt :

From rifleshooternag.com:
"Accuracy of the smoothbore musket was acknowledged, even at the period, to be somewhat lacking. In the 1814 To All Sportsmen, Colonel George Hanger wrote, “A soldier’s musket, if not exceedingly ill-bored (as many are), will strike a figure of a man at 80 yards; it may even at a hundred; but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, providing his antagonist aims at him; and as to firing at a man at 200 yards with a common musket, you may as well fire at the moon and have the same hope of hitting him. I do maintain and will prove…that no man was ever killed at 200 yards, by a common musket, by the person who aimed at him.”

The concept of "marksmanship" as we apply it here is not really appropriate for military doctrine of the day, to include the American militia and especially the Continental Army. With that said, the few (very few) rifle shooters took a heavy toll on British officers where they were employed and the engagements where militia with smoothies fired from cover/ambushed the Redcoats led to the "marskmanship" legend we know so well today. It is true that the American frontiersman/farmer would be much more familiar with his "fowling piece" (which is what they were armed with before French supplies and captured Besses became common) and used to actually aiming, and using concealment and stealth, than his British counterpart, who knew little of that but was a stone-cold, disciplined, killer.

The Appleseed Project from what I gather sort of mixes the mythology and patriotism of the 1770s with the riflemanship doctrines of the 1930s-1940s US military. Which is a great combination, really. But it's not a historical reenactment of Bunker Hill.

Posted: 12/3/2012 3:51:12 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Anyone that I talk to in person that scoffs at Appleseed I tack up a one inch square at 25 yards and have them try to make the hit. Frontiersmen could do it with a smoothbore black powder rifle 200 years ago, You certainly should be able to.

I have doubts that this would be possible repeatable with smoothbore muskets. (rifles have rifling) .

I Need to do some reading up.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2010/09/23/featured_rifles_bess_092407/

Interesting tests and the following excerpt :

From rifleshooternag.com:
"Accuracy of the smoothbore musket was acknowledged, even at the period, to be somewhat lacking. In the 1814 To All Sportsmen, Colonel George Hanger wrote, “A soldier’s musket, if not exceedingly ill-bored (as many are), will strike a figure of a man at 80 yards; it may even at a hundred; but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, providing his antagonist aims at him; and as to firing at a man at 200 yards with a common musket, you may as well fire at the moon and have the same hope of hitting him. I do maintain and will prove…that no man was ever killed at 200 yards, by a common musket, by the person who aimed at him.”

The concept of "marksmanship" as we apply it here is not really appropriate for military doctrine of the day, to include the American militia and especially the Continental Army. With that said, the few (very few) rifle shooters took a heavy toll on British officers where they were employed and the engagements where militia with smoothies fired from cover/ambushed the Redcoats led to the "marskmanship" legend we know so well today. It is true that the American frontiersman/farmer would be much more familiar with his "fowling piece" (which is what they were armed with before French supplies and captured Besses became common) and used to actually aiming, and using concealment and stealth, than his British counterpart, who knew little of that but was a stone-cold, disciplined, killer.

The Appleseed Project from what I gather sort of mixes the mythology and patriotism of the 1770s with the riflemanship doctrines of the 1930s-1940s US military. Which is a great combination, really. But it's not a historical reenactment of Bunker Hill.

There are no mythological tales. "Legendary" tales, maybe...but that still implies that there's no hard, documented truth behind them- and there is.

You're right, though- no reenactment of Bunker Hill. You do get to attend free if you wear period garb, though.

Posted: 12/3/2012 3:58:09 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Yes, we shot squares.

It was more like this:

Group demo.
Go back to line.
"shooters prep"
(by the time you barely have slung up and are just getting into position, they are now calling load . )

"load"
"Fire."
Then they sorta walk the line and tell you things as you are firing. But at that point, you have a lot on your plate.

In my mind, The time is better spent practing dry with feedback, rather than launching rounds before you even practice the position.

---------
Crap, I wish I would have thought of
ot shooting the aqt in favor of just practicing positions to see what was more stable.

I did sit out a couple aqt's only because I knew I was losing focus after the 5th straight one. It seemed a little pointless to continue.

I hated the sitting/kneeling positions...so I ended up practicing them a lot more. Ended up using an entire AQT's worth of shooting time ONLY from the sitting position to help me get it to work. It made a HUGE difference; becoming relatively proficient in the sitting style was what helped me get the score (and confidence) required to make Expert...and if I can do it, anyone should be able to!

Posted: 12/3/2012 4:05:58 PM EDT

[#11]

You'd think they'd tell people to do that sort of thing.

"for this next shoot.... Choose your weakest position. Take the entire aqt in that position and practice subtle changes. If you are comfortable with your positions, you may shoot it for score using the standard method. "

Posted: 12/3/2012 4:19:38 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I found it mostly boring and hated the woman teaching it. Me and my gf left after lunch.

Didn't do well, huh.

No offense, but you seem to be hung up on "the patch".

From what I gather, it's about learning technique, fundamentals, and heritage rather than making the patch the main goal.

True. But it is a goal worthy of striving to achieve none the less.

IME, most folks who poo-poo the Appleseed events either can't shoot well enough to achieve the patch and/or don't have the patience to learn to shoot well. Their egos make them quit. Since they were unable to achieve the patch Appleseed sucks.

I shoot pretty good and I think I could earn the patch, but dont read too much into my post. I really disliked the woman that was leading the class and chose to leave. I would like to do it again at another location that is led by someone else (male or female). My girlfriend thought the same so we shrugged shoulders and said lets get the hell out of this heat. I was glad my money went towards the Appleseed.

Posted: 12/3/2012 4:25:14 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I found it mostly boring and hated the woman teaching it. Me and my gf left after lunch.

Didn't do well, huh.

No offense, but you seem to be hung up on "the patch".

From what I gather, it's about learning technique, fundamentals, and heritage rather than making the patch the main goal.

After learning technique and the fundamental the patch and beyond should be your goal.

That and absorbing the heritage and recognizing the very similar path we now find ourselves on

Posted: 12/3/2012 4:31:12 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I plan on doing my 3rd one next year, maybe take my wife along for her first time, but she's really really new to guns, so I dunno if she's quite ready for the intensity of it.

My first two 'seeds I did with a horribly inaccurate AR15 with .223. The second was with a horribly unreliable .22 Conversion kit in a different AR.

I have a Marlin Mod 60 that I might use if I can figure out a good way to load that dang tube mag quickly. I'm a bit gunshy about doing another one with the 'wrong' rifle. I am really fighting the urge to just go buy a 10/22 and set it up right as a proper LTR just for Appleseed...

At the Appleseeds I've been to they always ask at the beginning if someone intends to use the Marlin Model 60. There's nothing wrong with it, they'll just give you slightly different directions for handling the course of fire.

There is no "wrong" rifle as long as it can be safely handled and fired. I've heard from one of the instructors that a guy managed Expert with a single-shot bolt rifle.

We had a 14 year old girl shoot rifleman this weekend with a bolt rifle.

Posted: 12/3/2012 4:35:51 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They are more for less experienced shooters. .

Not at all true. We have had Distinguished High Power shooters attend and enjoy the day. Scores of very experienced shooters have attended and enjoyed themselves. The drills are valuable to most everyone.

+1 Appleseed shows alot of people they are less experienced shooters.

Ain't that the truth.

There's a lot of folks who think they are "experienced" or "good" when they are in fact 20MOA shooters on a good day.

Posted: 12/3/2012 4:41:46 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I plan on doing my 3rd one next year, maybe take my wife along for her first time, but she's really really new to guns, so I dunno if she's quite ready for the intensity of it.

My first two 'seeds I did with a horribly inaccurate AR15 with .223. The second was with a horribly unreliable .22 Conversion kit in a different AR.

I have a Marlin Mod 60 that I might use if I can figure out a good way to load that dang tube mag quickly. I'm a bit gunshy about doing another one with the 'wrong' rifle. I am really fighting the urge to just go buy a 10/22 and set it up right as a proper LTR just for Appleseed...

At the Appleseeds I've been to they always ask at the beginning if someone intends to use the Marlin Model 60. There's nothing wrong with it, they'll just give you slightly different directions for handling the course of fire.

There is no "wrong" rifle as long as it can be safely handled and fired. I've heard from one of the instructors that a guy managed Expert with a single-shot bolt rifle.

We had a 14 year old girl shoot rifleman this weekend with a bolt rifle.

Yeah, I skimmed a few posts at the appleseed forums, and they have tubers load 11 rounds, and simply eject one to 'simulate' having to change mags and get back in position. So, honestly, I think a set of Techsights and one of those Spee-D Loaders and my Marlin will be just fine. I know it is accurate enough. And, I have a huge stack of AQT targets, so I can practice all I want, and then go get my Patch!

And, when I don't get The Patch, I can blame the Marlin! Win Win, right?

Posted: 12/3/2012 4:42:37 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I plan on doing my 3rd one next year, maybe take my wife along for her first time, but she's really really new to guns, so I dunno if she's quite ready for the intensity of it.

My first two 'seeds I did with a horribly inaccurate AR15 with .223. The second was with a horribly unreliable .22 Conversion kit in a different AR.

I have a Marlin Mod 60 that I might use if I can figure out a good way to load that dang tube mag quickly. I'm a bit gunshy about doing another one with the 'wrong' rifle. I am really fighting the urge to just go buy a 10/22 and set it up right as a proper LTR just for Appleseed...

Gimme a holler. The offer of a loaner LTR still stands.

Very cool. I will probably take you up on that. Either as a backup gun, or if I convince the wife to go with me.

Posted: 12/3/2012 4:59:28 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I plan on doing my 3rd one next year, maybe take my wife along for her first time, but she's really really new to guns, so I dunno if she's quite ready for the intensity of it.

My first two 'seeds I did with a horribly inaccurate AR15 with .223. The second was with a horribly unreliable .22 Conversion kit in a different AR.

I have a Marlin Mod 60 that I might use if I can figure out a good way to load that dang tube mag quickly. I'm a bit gunshy about doing another one with the 'wrong' rifle. I am really fighting the urge to just go buy a 10/22 and set it up right as a proper LTR just for Appleseed...

Gimme a holler. The offer of a loaner LTR still stands.

If either of you guys in interested in coming down to Pittsburg, KS let me know and I'll add you to our notification list. We usually host 3 Appleseeds a year. Due to "the problems" at ASHQ we've been bringing in the former AS instructors (now USRA) to run a very similar program.

ETA - Our instructors have 5 or 6 LTR loaners they bring along as well if they are needed. A shooter would just need to supply ammo.

Posted: 12/3/2012 5:02:09 PM EDT

[#19]

Can anyone post a link to a decent sling for a 10/22 that would work well for an Appleseed shoot?

Posted: 12/3/2012 5:11:14 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Yes, we shot squares.

It was more like this:

Group demo.
Go back to line.
"shooters prep"
(by the time you barely have slung up and are just getting into position, they are now calling load . )

"load"
"Fire."
Then they sorta walk the line and tell you things as you are firing. But at that point, you have a lot on your plate.

In my mind, The time is better spent practing dry with feedback, rather than launching rounds before you even practice the position.

---------
Crap, I wish I would have thought of
ot shooting the aqt in favor of just practicing positions to see what was more stable.

I did sit out a couple aqt's only because I knew I was losing focus after the 5th straight one. It seemed a little pointless to continue.

My wife and I have a local, master, Appleseed instructor who we usually work with at Appleseeds in our area. This is how he does it. We have a "dry practice" time after any major instruction.

Posted: 12/3/2012 5:14:16 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Can anyone post a link to a decent sling for a 10/22 that would work well for an Appleseed shoot?

Military surplus canvas sling

replace the metal buckles with uncle mikes qd sling swivels cheap and effective. You will just need to put sling studs on your rifle if it does not have them.

Posted: 12/3/2012 5:23:51 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes, we shot squares.

It was more like this:

Group demo.
Go back to line.
"shooters prep"
(by the time you barely have slung up and are just getting into position, they are now calling load . )

"load"
"Fire."
Then they sorta walk the line and tell you things as you are firing. But at that point, you have a lot on your plate.

In my mind, The time is better spent practing dry with feedback, rather than launching rounds before you even practice the position.

---------
Crap, I wish I would have thought of
ot shooting the aqt in favor of just practicing positions to see what was more stable.

I did sit out a couple aqt's only because I knew I was losing focus after the 5th straight one. It seemed a little pointless to continue.

My wife and I have a local, master, Appleseed instructor who we usually work with at Appleseeds in our area. This is how he does it. We have a "dry practice" time after any major instruction.

A lot depends on the number of shooters at the event and their skill level. If you have a lot of new shooters you don't get as many AQT's in or time to dry practice. If there are only a couple of shooters and they are fairly proficient you can get more dry practice time or "dry runs" on the AQT.

It really does depend on the instructors on how they "run" the line.

There were 14 people signed up for this weekends shoot including myself and there were only 4 shooters total that showed up. Two of us had been to several seeds and the other two were actually LEO. So we were able to proceed pretty quickly through the basics/safety ect. and moved on to shooting sight in squares and practicing positions before doing the AQT's.

Posted: 12/3/2012 5:25:41 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Anyone that I talk to in person that scoffs at Appleseed I tack up a one inch square at 25 yards and have them try to make the hit. Frontiersmen could do it with a smoothbore black powder rifle 200 years ago, You certainly should be able to.

I have doubts that this would be possible repeatable with smoothbore muskets. (rifles have rifling) .

I Need to do some reading up.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/2010/09/23/featured_rifles_bess_092407/

Interesting tests and the following excerpt :

From rifleshooternag.com:
"Accuracy of the smoothbore musket was acknowledged, even at the period, to be somewhat lacking. In the 1814 To All Sportsmen, Colonel George Hanger wrote, “A soldier’s musket, if not exceedingly ill-bored (as many are), will strike a figure of a man at 80 yards; it may even at a hundred; but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, providing his antagonist aims at him; and as to firing at a man at 200 yards with a common musket, you may as well fire at the moon and have the same hope of hitting him. I do maintain and will prove…that no man was ever killed at 200 yards, by a common musket, by the person who aimed at him.”

The concept of "marksmanship" as we apply it here is not really appropriate for military doctrine of the day, to include the American militia and especially the Continental Army. With that said, the few (very few) rifle shooters took a heavy toll on British officers where they were employed and the engagements where militia with smoothies fired from cover/ambushed the Redcoats led to the "marskmanship" legend we know so well today. It is true that the American frontiersman/farmer would be much more familiar with his "fowling piece" (which is what they were armed with before French supplies and captured Besses became common) and used to actually aiming, and using concealment and stealth, than his British counterpart, who knew little of that but was a stone-cold, disciplined, killer.

The Appleseed Project from what I gather sort of mixes the mythology and patriotism of the 1770s with the riflemanship doctrines of the 1930s-1940s US military. Which is a great combination, really. But it's not a historical reenactment of Bunker Hill.

There are no mythological tales. "Legendary" tales, maybe...but that still implies that there's no hard, documented truth behind them- and there is.

You're right, though- no reenactment of Bunker Hill. You do get to attend free if you wear period garb, though.

Mythology, in the strict definition, does not mean untruthful or undocumented.

I like to think there's some American mythology around those singular days, and all the better if that mythology can be historically documented.

I was invited to give a presentation at one downstate (er, Metro Detroit) in my F&I Highlander getup, but was afraid of taking fire with that big, red coat.

Actually, just ended up moving away -- would love to attend one in period dress and give the ol' King's Pattern musket a workout.

Posted: 12/3/2012 6:02:59 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Yes the weekends can seem rushed. Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast when working an event with anything less than a 1:1 instructor/student ratio.

However, if you have a range back home you can easily order a stack of the AQT targets cheaply from Fred's and take all the practice time you need to.

Posted: 12/3/2012 6:08:54 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Can anyone post a link to a decent sling for a 10/22 that would work well for an Appleseed shoot?

This is your generic dirt cheap GI Parade/Silent Sling that will work fine when used as a "Hasty Sling" for shooting in the AS program and anytime you need a quick way of stabilizing the rifle.

A blogger goes over a few other styles of slings here.

Midway USA has tons of options.

These are the sling studs and swivels you need for a wood stocked 10/22.

The 10/22 butt plate sucks because it slips all over your shoulder instead of staying still. This butt pad will eliminate that and stretch the stock out to fit an adult man (plus tame the brutal recoil of the .22LR

).

Adding length to the stock can be a problem if a smaller woman or kid is using the rifle. I cut a 10/22 stock down and installed a flat rubber pad to fix that for my kids. Another solution would be to use rubber cement to glue some of that grippy rubber stuff used in cabinet shelves to the factory plastic stock.

Posted: 12/3/2012 6:12:38 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Yes the weekends can seem rushed. Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast when working an event with anything less than a 1:1 instructor/student ratio.

However, if you have a range back home you can easily order a stack of the AQT targets cheaply from Fred's and take all the practice time you need to.

I don't know any ranges that will let us do those positions or transitions.

Around here it seems to be real simple. Shoot from the bench, one round at a time. No more than one round in the mag at a lot of the ranges.

:(

Posted: 12/3/2012 8:35:48 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Yes the weekends can seem rushed. Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast when working an event with anything less than a 1:1 instructor/student ratio.

However, if you have a range back home you can easily order a stack of the AQT targets cheaply from Fred's and take all the practice time you need to.

I don't know any ranges that will let us do those positions or transitions.

Around here it seems to be real simple. Shoot from the bench, one round at a time. No more than one round in the mag at a lot of the ranges.

:(

Where in washignton are you?

Posted: 12/3/2012 8:55:40 PM EDT

[#28]

at the one I've been though we could only attend the first day

Didn't even get though a single AQT

Plan to hit another one sometime

Posted: 12/3/2012 9:27:13 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Can anyone post a link to a decent sling for a 10/22 that would work well for an Appleseed shoot?

Cotton M-1 web sling

This is what the Appleseed instruction is designed for, and they're a dang good sling to have anyways. You can also use a leather Turner-style sling but they're a) more expensive, and b) slower to adjust and a bit awkward to me.

That said, almost any normal cotton (not nylon!) 2-point sling with a buckle will be enough to do what you need to.

Posted: 12/3/2012 9:31:36 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Yes the weekends can seem rushed. Unfortunately that is the nature of the beast when working an event with anything less than a 1:1 instructor/student ratio.

However, if you have a range back home you can easily order a stack of the AQT targets cheaply from Fred's and take all the practice time you need to.

I don't know any ranges that will let us do those positions or transitions.

Around here it seems to be real simple. Shoot from the bench, one round at a time. No more than one round in the mag at a lot of the ranges.

:(

Where in washignton are you?

Apparently somewhere awfully oppressed.

Posted: 12/3/2012 9:47:13 PM EDT

[#31]

Thanks guys!

Posted: 12/4/2012 2:44:31 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I plan on doing my 3rd one next year, maybe take my wife along for her first time, but she's really really new to guns, so I dunno if she's quite ready for the intensity of it.

My first two 'seeds I did with a horribly inaccurate AR15 with .223. The second was with a horribly unreliable .22 Conversion kit in a different AR.

I have a Marlin Mod 60 that I might use if I can figure out a good way to load that dang tube mag quickly. I'm a bit gunshy about doing another one with the 'wrong' rifle. I am really fighting the urge to just go buy a 10/22 and set it up right as a proper LTR just for Appleseed...

Gimme a holler. The offer of a loaner LTR still stands.

If either of you guys in interested in coming down to Pittsburg, KS let me know and I'll add you to our notification list. We usually host 3 Appleseeds a year. Due to "the problems" at ASHQ we've been bringing in the former AS instructors (now USRA) to run a very similar program.

ETA - Our instructors have 5 or 6 LTR loaners they bring along as well if they are needed. A shooter would just need to supply ammo.

May do that! My club (Pioneer) used to host a couple a year. But, per the forums, apparently there was a Big Mess, and Missouri somehow got basically no shoots in 2012, and may or may not have many in '13. Which is sad, considering one of the shoots I went to had 60 shooters, which was MO's biggest, and one of the biggest across the country....

So, I'll have to look up this USRA. What do they do differently/better?

Posted: 12/4/2012 3:07:59 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

How do you plan on hitting a target with broken sights?

http://i50.tinypic.com/1fd6s7.jpg
Was gonna try this.

A deprimed 223 cut in half and taped onto receiver. It seemed to work well.

http://i50.tinypic.com/5fokle.jpg

Then I took the gun to a range and it worked ok with rear sight as is.

Posted: 12/4/2012 5:34:11 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
at the one I've been though we could only attend the first day

Didn't even get though a single AQT

Plan to hit another one sometime

Yeah, the first day can be very rushed, especially if there are a lot of students. Depending on the overall proficiency of the group and the student/instructor ratio, it's possible that there won't be enough time to get everybody up to the point that they can shoot an AQT. The last Appleseed I went to, we had 10 students and 4 orange and 2 red hats, but between the shorter winter days and the overall abilities of the students, we barely manage to get through 2 AQTs before it got too dark and cold to shoot.

Posted: 12/4/2012 6:41:22 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Can anyone post a link to a decent sling for a 10/22 that would work well for an Appleseed shoot?

Cotton M-1 web sling

This is what the Appleseed instruction is designed for, and they're a dang good sling to have anyways. You can also use a leather Turner-style sling but they're a) more expensive, and b) slower to adjust and a bit awkward to me.

That said, almost any normal cotton (not nylon!) 2-point sling with a buckle will be enough to do what you need to.

Add a couple QD heavy duty sling swivels and you're GTG.

Posted: 12/4/2012 2:11:51 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can anyone post a link to a decent sling for a 10/22 that would work well for an Appleseed shoot?

Cotton M-1 web sling

This is what the Appleseed instruction is designed for, and they're a dang good sling to have anyways. You can also use a leather Turner-style sling but they're a) more expensive, and b) slower to adjust and a bit awkward to me.

That said, almost any normal cotton (not nylon!) 2-point sling with a buckle will be enough to do what you need to.

Add a couple QD heavy duty sling swivels and you're GTG.

Tech Sights also sells them. I know, just I just added a 1" one to my order of sights for the Marlin.

Also, the Appleseed folks themselves Appleseed Store and so does the founder Fred: Fred

Posted: 12/5/2012 6:08:09 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

May do that! My club (Pioneer) used to host a couple a year. But, per the forums, apparently there was a Big Mess, and Missouri somehow got basically no shoots in 2012, and may or may not have many in '13. Which is sad, considering one of the shoots I went to had 60 shooters, which was MO's biggest, and one of the biggest across the country....

So, I'll have to look up this USRA. What do they do differently/better?

As of right now US Rifleman's Association is a near carbon copy of Appleseed that uses slightly different targets (mini-zombies and such). The big split as best I can figure was over Appleseed refusing to let instructors deviate from the script and "do this then that" regardless of class competency.

Because of this schism Appleseed lost just about all of their instructors in MO & KS plus quite a few in IL and other fly over states. Our last AS had to bring a shoot boss from Minnesota and it was a last second thing whether they would have one at all.

Posted: 12/5/2012 6:22:55 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Can anyone post a link to a decent sling for a 10/22 that would work well for an Appleseed shoot?

Cotton M-1 web sling

This is what the Appleseed instruction is designed for, and they're a dang good sling to have anyways. You can also use a leather Turner-style sling but they're a) more expensive, and b) slower to adjust and a bit awkward to me.

That said, almost any normal cotton (not nylon!) 2-point sling with a buckle will be enough to do what you need to.

Guys. That is the only sling you should be purchasing. Unless you plan on or already own another cuff styled sliing such as a tac intevention or the like .. This is the sling that everyone will be using. You must have a sling to shoot appleseed. This is the sling they will teach you to use, it is the one they know how to mess with to help those people who don't have the proper sling studs already setup (such as substituting the FSB on an AR for example)

The cotton grips better on your arm above the bicep which is critical when shooting this style in order to prevent teh interruption of blood flow if it drops down to low on the bicep. And unless you guys are planning on wearing a shooting jacket that allows youto clip in then these 8 dollar slings are a better fit trust me.

Technically a 1907 would work as well but they are complicated and you will not be used to the method in which they are suppposed to be used.

the bucks also allows for fast one handed length adjustments in order to maintain proper tension when transition from standing to sitting to prone, no other sling does this function as well.

BUY THAT SLING

They are available everywhere, if not from the CMP then check freds or any other retailer. If that doesn't work pm me I ahve about 6 of them now. have fun, shot straight and don't drag wood

Posted: 12/5/2012 3:10:04 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:

May do that! My club (Pioneer) used to host a couple a year. But, per the forums, apparently there was a Big Mess, and Missouri somehow got basically no shoots in 2012, and may or may not have many in '13. Which is sad, considering one of the shoots I went to had 60 shooters, which was MO's biggest, and one of the biggest across the country....

So, I'll have to look up this USRA. What do they do differently/better?

As of right now US Rifleman's Association is a near carbon copy of Appleseed that uses slightly different targets (mini-zombies and such). The big split as best I can figure was over Appleseed refusing to let instructors deviate from the script and "do this then that" regardless of class competency.

Because of this schism Appleseed lost just about all of their instructors in MO & KS plus quite a few in IL and other fly over states. Our last AS had to bring a shoot boss from Minnesota and it was a last second thing whether they would have one at all.

Good info, thanks! Sad to see an organization suffer because of internal politics/control freaks. Especially as one as volunteer driven and important as Appleseed.

I also found a USRA that stood for US Rimfire Association. It appeared to be basically Benchrest for .22. (There are approx 14 Billion orgs that have USRA for an acronym, btw. Heh.)

Posted: 12/5/2012 5:32:45 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

May do that! My club (Pioneer) used to host a couple a year. But, per the forums, apparently there was a Big Mess, and Missouri somehow got basically no shoots in 2012, and may or may not have many in '13. Which is sad, considering one of the shoots I went to had 60 shooters, which was MO's biggest, and one of the biggest across the country....

So, I'll have to look up this USRA. What do they do differently/better?

As of right now US Rifleman's Association is a near carbon copy of Appleseed that uses slightly different targets (mini-zombies and such). The big split as best I can figure was over Appleseed refusing to let instructors deviate from the script and "do this then that" regardless of class competency.

Because of this schism Appleseed lost just about all of their instructors in MO & KS plus quite a few in IL and other fly over states. Our last AS had to bring a shoot boss from Minnesota and it was a last second thing whether they would have one at all.

Good info, thanks! Sad to see an organization suffer because of internal politics/control freaks. Especially as one as volunteer driven and important as Appleseed.

I also found a USRA that stood for US Rimfire Association. It appeared to be basically Benchrest for .22. (There are approx 14 Billion orgs that have USRA for an acronym, btw. Heh.)

I hate to say this, but I will guarantee that the appleseed program will not be able to survive another year the way its going, there isn't a doubt in my mind. I believe NY as well currently is not offering a single appleseed even at all until further notice. Anyone who has tried to offer to help volunteeer as an instructor has to know what im talking about. They were out of their minds as far as I was concerned, which is hwy nota single person is available to run a line currently

Posted: 12/5/2012 6:18:00 PM EDT

[#41]

I was suppose to attend one a few months ago but couldn't make it so we rain checked it. I can and have been shooting Rifleman with no sling at all. I am interested to see if they teach anything different then what I do already. I never use a sling to shoot so that will be new. But other wise I am mostly in it for the patch

Posted: 12/5/2012 7:15:52 PM EDT

[#42]

US Rifleman's Association website!

Proper sling useage definitely has its place to help stabilize your rifle, Billy. I'd recommend trying "their way" then figuring out how to modify or adapt that to your rifle and circumstances.

Posted: 12/5/2012 7:32:27 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
US Rifleman's Association website!

Proper sling useage definitely has its place to help stabilize your rifle, Billy. I'd recommend trying "their way" then figuring out how to modify or adapt that to your rifle and circumstances.

I've been shooting damn near my whole life but am able to keep a some what open mind about new stuff. So yeah, I'll go with an open mind and a sling to learn their way and take what I want and make my own. Now I should say I do know how to shoot with a sling, I most often choose not to.

Shit, I took my old 10/22 and did some work on it. Sanded the stock, free-floated the barrel, took the barrel band off and smoothed out that step in the stock, added tech sights, added sling stud mounts and even stippeled the plastic butt stock cap.

It shoots much nicer then my other factory 10/22 with notch sights.

I've zeroed it nice and tight and so far for best groups CCI 36gr MiniMags are it's favorite. I zeroed it on 40gr Blazer but won't use that ammo but have shot Rifleman with Blazer. I need to try 40gr MiniMags too but just haven't done it yet.

I shot a practice AQT last weekend, first time shooting since July, got a 194 with 36gr Winchester 525 pack and my 10/22 shoots that stuff the worst. But even still on the bottom row, 2nd target I put 2 through the same hole

The bottom row got me, my groups were tight but just too low. I'll blame the ammo for that lol

Posted: 12/6/2012 6:21:55 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Shit, I took my old 10/22 and did some work on it. Sanded the stock, free-floated the barrel, took the barrel band off and smoothed out that step in the stock, added tech sights, added sling stud mounts and even stippeled the plastic butt stock cap.

It shoots much nicer then my other factory 10/22 with notch sights.

I've zeroed it nice and tight and so far for best groups CCI 36gr MiniMags are it's favorite. I zeroed it on 40gr Blazer but won't use that ammo but have shot Rifleman with Blazer. I need to try 40gr MiniMags too but just haven't done it yet.

I shot a practice AQT last weekend, first time shooting since July, got a 194 with 36gr Winchester 525 pack and my 10/22 shoots that stuff the worst. But even still on the bottom row, 2nd target I put 2 through the same hole

The bottom row got me, my groups were tight but just too low. I'll blame the ammo for that lol

Shooting under the small targets gets all of us! I imagine you're using a center hold zero like I am (point of impact is the top of the front sight post). Trying to differentiate between half the target visible (dead center POA) and all of the target visible (6 o'clock POA) is VERY difficult and requires really good eye sight and focus with irons. My solution is to start aiming with the front sight low (I can see white between my sight and the target) then raise my sight until the target disappears THEN bringing my front sight back down so I can see a sliver of the target (dead center POA). You may have to repeat that process a few times before you find the right amount of sliver of target.

Most of the Appleseed'ers use a 6 o'clock hold zero (front sight at bottom of target and POI at center of smallest target). This is a "gamer" approach to Appleseed which works for targets that are all at the same distance or are all known size and distance with sight adjustments and holdover amounts memorized for each distance (i.e. Hi-Power competition shooters). As a personal quirk I'd rather learn a sighting method with less variables.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - doing an appleseed shoot tomorrow (Page 3 of 3)

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