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Posted: 2/10/2015 7:48:46 AM EDT
[#1]
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Man, I can't ever see taking work that serious. I began working at a refinery in 1972. There were a few guys that had crossed the picket line many years ago. No one had spoken a word to them except for work-related critical information, for all those years. If a group of men were talking and the guy walked up, they would all turn around and walk off. He ate by himself as no one would eat with him. He couldn't leave anything personal unattended or it would be damaged. He led a miserable life. Not saying it was "right" (it wasn't), but that's how "scabs" were treated back in the day. You had to either honor the picket line or look for another job, as your work life would be miserable if you crossed it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you are in an organization that has the power to make you stop working at their command and go to a drastically reduced pay scale (strike pay), why does it seem like such a surprise and mystery when it happens? You put your quarter in the slot and pulled the handle. They arent making me do anything. I have every opportunity to go back to work if I choose. Yes, but will you? I'd cross that goddamned line in a heartbeat. I have before and I'd do it again. Man, I can't ever see taking work that serious. I began working at a refinery in 1972. There were a few guys that had crossed the picket line many years ago. No one had spoken a word to them except for work-related critical information, for all those years. If a group of men were talking and the guy walked up, they would all turn around and walk off. He ate by himself as no one would eat with him. He couldn't leave anything personal unattended or it would be damaged. He led a miserable life. Not saying it was "right" (it wasn't), but that's how "scabs" were treated back in the day. You had to either honor the picket line or look for another job, as your work life would be miserable if you crossed it. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 7:56:26 AM EDT
[#2]
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If you are in an organization that has the power to make you stop working at their command and go to a drastically reduced pay scale (strike pay), why does it seem like such a surprise and mystery when it happens? You put your quarter in the slot and pulled the handle. They arent making me do anything. I have every opportunity to go back to work if I choose. Yes, but will you? I'd cross that goddamned line in a heartbeat. I have before and I'd do it again. Man, I can't ever see taking work that serious. I began working at a refinery in 1972. There were a few guys that had crossed the picket line many years ago. No one had spoken a word to them except for work-related critical information, for all those years. If a group of men were talking and the guy walked up, they would all turn around and walk off. He ate by himself as no one would eat with him. He couldn't leave anything personal unattended or it would be damaged. He led a miserable life. Not saying it was "right" (it wasn't), but that's how "scabs" were treated back in the day. You had to either honor the picket line or look for another job, as your work life would be miserable if you crossed it. That's why I hate unions. The real scabs are the ones picketing. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 6:12:07 PM EDT
[#3]
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So you are saying the no matter where you went to work, you would join a union even if not required? You're also saying that you pay for everything you take part in? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Someone has to protect the incompetent. I belong to a union, and I can assure you that I and my fellow machinists are far from incompetent. I'll wager you couldn't do our job. Can you set up a six axis Mazak Integrex lathe, or mill? You realize that it is Union labor that manufactures the m119, m198, mk19, m1a1 and m1a2 weapon systems?  Oh the irony.... I'm a career machinist/programmer mostly (still do some g code on the old haas, vipers, johns fords, and pumas, but we're switching to all mazaks, mazatrol is a great interface) all Mazak lathes and mills. I was Union on gov contracts prior to my current industry, and yes unions protect incompetency. Not saying there isn't skilled professionals in unions just saying how unions operate. Of course to the unions I was a rat bc I lived in a right to work state at the time and refused to member up, and voted to disband once. Also a double whammy for me being a rat bc I'm a facility manager now, and unions hate management or any of their pawns who want something more than standing on a machine for 20 yrs. Couldn't give a fuck who makes "weapon systems or platforms", a union making them means the tax payers are prob getting fucked. To answer your question: I'll wager I've done your job a time or two. That's nice. I see you are a non-paying "member" here also. I guess letting everybody else pay for something that you use is just how you roll, huh? So you are saying the no matter where you went to work, you would join a union even if not required? You're also saying that you pay for everything you take part in? I waited about a year before I joined at my current job. I had one supervisor who was one of the biggest assholes I have ever met, fucker was a tyrant. Guy started fucking with us mercilessly, and wouldn't stop. I finally went to our steward for advise. I figured if I was going to utilize the union, it was only fair I should pay dues. Personally, for me, it seemed like the right thing to do. I always pay my own way, and would never expect anyone else to do it for me. No, I didn't have to, not all of my coworkers have chosen to join. That's their business, and no concern of mine. There is no coercion, and they must by law receive equal representation from the union. Just the way it is. I hang out with my steward quite a bit, he's a good guy and I value his wisdom. I can understand other peoples dislike of unions, but for me it's just not a big deal. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 7:27:01 PM EDT
[#4]
I'd have to check, but I have read that the law does NOT say the union has to represent you even if you aren't a member, it's just often in the union contract.
Of course, there may be state laws saying this, so I don't know. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 7:35:45 PM EDT
[#5]
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I'd have to check, but I have read that the law does NOT say the union has to represent you even if you aren't a member, it's just often in the union contract. Of course, there may be state laws saying this, so I don't know. Nope, it is an NLRB requirement. However, how much they really "try" to help you is another matter. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 7:40:41 PM EDT
[#6]
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What am I lying about? The government is elbow deep in interfering with free markets. Including special protections for Unions but also special protections for certian industries. It goes both ways. Corporations are people now. The truth isn't black and white. Corporations = Good. Unions = Evil. Unions can be as greedy as corporations and vice versa. Mostly it is just about making money. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How does it feel to hate free markets?  The carteling of skilled labor is not anti free market. In fact it is very definition of free market economics. The majority is GD's hatred for Unions is borne out of labor's alignment with Democrats who are anti gun and the co-oping of labor by commies and progressives which started in the 1920s. It is a bit disingenuous to argue that Union greed (which certainly exists same as corporate greed) has had an effect on the American economy in the last 30 years. Union membership is like 11% if you take out public sector civil service unions I bet it is less than 5%. The irony to me is a lack of pensions is going to herald in more socialist federal spending programs in the long run. I am in my 30s. I know plenty of people in their 50s and 60s who have little to no savings. They sure as hell are going to vote for whomever promises them money when they have none. Your first statement is a lie. It's specifically that. Only someone brainwashed or with an agenda would say that. If it wasn't, it would not take the power of the government to keep it happening. Txl What am I lying about? The government is elbow deep in interfering with free markets. Including special protections for Unions but also special protections for certian industries. It goes both ways. Corporations are people now. The truth isn't black and white. Corporations = Good. Unions = Evil. Unions can be as greedy as corporations and vice versa. Mostly it is just about making money. Don't they teach the Sherman Anti-Trust Act in school anymore, or that does not fit the communist agenda? I cannot believe you think cartels are part of the free market economy when in fact, these are illegal. I agree with your last statements though. The federal government has been interfering with the free market regarding pensions to further their agenda of socialism and communism. The workers who are seriously out of luck are those in the age group you quote where they spent their first 1/3 working in a market of private pensions. It's the first 1/3 is where all the money is made for the pension annuities. |
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Posted: 2/10/2015 8:02:42 PM EDT
[#7]
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Nope, it is an NLRB requirement. However, how much they really "try" to help you is another matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd have to check, but I have read that the law does NOT say the union has to represent you even if you aren't a member, it's just often in the union contract. Of course, there may be state laws saying this, so I don't know. Nope, it is an NLRB requirement. However, how much they really "try" to help you is another matter. "I may have to represent you but I don't have to do it well." "Write out your complaint in detail on a piece of paper to include specific dates & times that the incident occurred." Take paper, write on grievance form "see attached," identify specific contractual violations on form (if any), then hand it to the manager & ask for his written response. Give written response back to non-member, problem solved, you've been represented. Unions are not required to take forward complaints that have no merit; there is no requirement that every complaint has to go to binding arbitration. |
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Posted: 2/11/2015 7:17:53 PM EDT
[#8]
On day 4 of the strike.
I think the number of refineries on strike is at 11 now. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 11:51:06 AM EDT
[#9]
It doesnt sound like anything was accomplished in national negotiations this week. I would expect to see at least 2 more decent sized refineries put on strike this weekend based off the trend so far.
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Posted: 2/13/2015 12:27:06 PM EDT
[#10]
We used to calculate how much money we were losing each day of the strike to find out how long we would be off before we could not make-up the wages lost even at a higher wage.
It was a distressingly short time. You are probably past the point of no return already. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 12:28:27 PM EDT
[#11]
I "crossed" the "picket line" yesterday. Lazy union pigs are so lazy they won't even show up to their own picket line.
There was a grand total of 10 people there. They had signs and bullhorns, and spent more time harassing the traffic passing than trying to berate those of us who "crossed." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 12:38:12 PM EDT
[#12]
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I "crossed" the "picket line" yesterday. Lazy union pigs are so lazy they won't even show up to their own picket line. There was a grand total of 10 people there. They had signs and bullhorns, and spent more time harassing the traffic passing than trying to berate those of us who "crossed." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thats a good thing, right?. People have been going in and out of certain gates every day. I think if people are conducting themselves well then it makes us look less like "union thugs" and gives a positive perception of what we are trying to accomplish. As far as the picket lines go, we have been starting to do every other day rotations at 4 hour shifts. You will see the number diminish a little bit as time goes one, but at least one person will always be there. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 12:41:39 PM EDT
[#13]
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We used to calculate how much money we were losing each day of the strike to find out how long we would be off before we could not make-up the wages lost even at a higher wage. It was a distressingly short time. You are probably past the point of no return already. We dont even know what our pay is going to do once a contract is signed. We gave them our proposals of what USW is asking for, but USW wont even discuss it further until the safety concerns/staffing levels are addressed. Personally, my pay can fluctuate +/- $20K per year depending on how much OT I feel like working. So whenever we get back to work, I really wont notice a huge difference. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 12:49:00 PM EDT
[#14]
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Thats a good thing, right?. People have been going in and out of certain gates every day. I think if people are conducting themselves well then it makes us look less like "union thugs" and gives a positive perception of what we are trying to accomplish. As far as the picket lines go, we have been starting to do every other day rotations at 4 hour shifts. You will see the number diminish a little bit as time goes one, but at least one person will always be there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They had signs and bullhorns, and spent more time harassing the traffic passing than trying to berate those of us who "crossed." Thats a good thing, right?. People have been going in and out of certain gates every day. I think if people are conducting themselves well then it makes us look less like "union thugs" and gives a positive perception of what we are trying to accomplish. As far as the picket lines go, we have been starting to do every other day rotations at 4 hour shifts. You will see the number diminish a little bit as time goes one, but at least one person will always be there. I'm not so sure. You're protesting against your employer. You want to call public attention and support to your cause, but if you end up pissing off the neighbors, you lose that support. The guys crossing the picket line already dislike you. You ain't changing that. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 1:05:39 PM EDT
[#15]
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I'm not so sure. You're protesting against your employer. You want to call public attention and support to your cause, but if you end up pissing off the neighbors, you lose that support. The guys crossing the picket line already dislike you. You ain't changing that. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They had signs and bullhorns, and spent more time harassing the traffic passing than trying to berate those of us who "crossed." Thats a good thing, right?. People have been going in and out of certain gates every day. I think if people are conducting themselves well then it makes us look less like "union thugs" and gives a positive perception of what we are trying to accomplish. As far as the picket lines go, we have been starting to do every other day rotations at 4 hour shifts. You will see the number diminish a little bit as time goes one, but at least one person will always be there. I'm not so sure. You're protesting against your employer. You want to call public attention and support to your cause, but if you end up pissing off the neighbors, you lose that support. The guys crossing the picket line already dislike you. You ain't changing that. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I couldnt agree more. We havent gotten any noise complaints or the like from the community. If we do, it will be taken care of immediately. They are on our side and we want it to stay that way. Hell, we had a few guys leave the line yesterday and go two streets down and shovel a ladies driveway for her. As far as the blue... I can only speak for what I know about this area. Yes, there are people that are more than happy to cross the line. Thats their choice and Im no one to tell a man how to make a living. However, some of the local unions will be forced to provide manpower in the coming days. Most of them are under a contract they signed before the refinery would allow their members to work inside. The contract says (not verbatim) that the unions can respect the picket lined for XX amount of days. After that time frame if they do not provide manpower they get fined something crazy like 10K per shift. Again, these are union members from area locals. Some will choose not to cross and work somewhere else, some will cross. They wont be met with hostility or people blocking the gates. Its their choice. As a side note, Im on the right side of the political spectrum. By rights I should be totally anti union. I certainly have voiced my opinion on some of the dumb shit Ive seen in our union, but overall its the best one I've been in. This is my first real look at Union -vs- Industry when it comes to negotiations. I've been on this site long enough that I think its safe to say that even the most staunch union haters would be insulted by how these companies are addressing these safety issues. Knowing you are a number and being told you are a number is a very different feeling. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 4:59:35 PM EDT
[#16]
For those who care for truth and facts instead of mindless ignorant rhetoric.
http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17631/oil_workers_on_strike |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 5:05:27 PM EDT
[#17]
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For those who care for truth and facts instead of mindless ignorant rhetoric. http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17631/oil_workers_on_strike That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 5:19:37 PM EDT
[#18]
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You say "you" as if its my idea. Trust me, its not... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Steel ? Oil You are involved in the oil industry and you are going on strike? That doesn't seem very wise with the current price of oil. You say "you" as if its my idea. Trust me, its not... Hmmm, who shows up to work? Is it your job or the union's? Personally, I don't take marching orders from anybody. If I want to work, I'll go to work. If not, I won't. Whether or not you strike is ENTIRELY within your own control. Letting some union fuck in a suit dictate whether or not you lace your boots up is pretty fucking weak, if you ask me. If you want to join the strike, then join the strike. If you don't, then don't. Either way, own that shit. Don't act like a victim who doesn't have choices. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 5:21:27 PM EDT
[#19]
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That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For those who care for truth and facts instead of mindless ignorant rhetoric. http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17631/oil_workers_on_strike That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 5:25:33 PM EDT
[#20]
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Hmmm, who shows up to work? Is it your job or the union's? Personally, I don't take marching orders from anybody. If I want to work, I'll go to work. If not, I won't. Whether or not you strike is ENTIRELY within your own control. Letting some union fuck in a suit dictate whether or not you lace your boots up is pretty fucking weak, if you ask me. If you want to join the strike, then join the strike. If you don't, then don't. Either way, own that shit. Don't act like a victim who doesn't have choices. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Steel ? Oil You are involved in the oil industry and you are going on strike? That doesn't seem very wise with the current price of oil. You say "you" as if its my idea. Trust me, its not... Hmmm, who shows up to work? Is it your job or the union's? Personally, I don't take marching orders from anybody. If I want to work, I'll go to work. If not, I won't. Whether or not you strike is ENTIRELY within your own control. Letting some union fuck in a suit dictate whether or not you lace your boots up is pretty fucking weak, if you ask me. If you want to join the strike, then join the strike. If you don't, then don't. Either way, own that shit. Don't act like a victim who doesn't have choices. Read the rest of my posts. At no point have I acted like the victim. I meant that comment as to mean I personally didnt call a strike, in response to his post. As of now, I stand with the decision that was made because of the issues on the table that need to get resolved. If at any point those reasons for striking dont align with my moral compass, I'll change my stance. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 5:27:51 PM EDT
[#21]
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I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For those who care for truth and facts instead of mindless ignorant rhetoric. http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17631/oil_workers_on_strike That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. But, but,but.....ARF has told me that union members are the lowest form of life on the planet. Even worse than dirt and Nancy Pelosi. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 5:30:41 PM EDT
[#22]
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This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. From reading that interview, it seems to be a lot more about holding non-signatory parties (new company owners) hostage to the agreements you've extorted, not letting independent contractors near your rice bowl, and getting more time off because you're too tired. 
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Posted: 2/13/2015 5:35:12 PM EDT
[#23]
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I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For those who care for truth and facts instead of mindless ignorant rhetoric. http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17631/oil_workers_on_strike That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. I never said any such thing, nor do I believe it. I once was a member of the OCAW at a large refinery in Port Arthur. And as a result, I know that sometimes the Union officials were not doing what I wanted them to do. In fact, once they were going against the will of the majority of union members. We had to force a vote to go back to work, against the very firm opposition of the union leadership. Often times the union leadership likes to be "in charge" and the are most in charge when they are leading a strike. They didn't care that it was killing some of us that were trying to pay a house note and raise a family. They wanted what they wanted, not what the membership wanted. Not saying that is the case in this situation, but it sometimes happens. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:04:16 PM EDT
[#24]
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I never said any such thing, nor do I believe it. I once was a member of the OCAW at a large refinery in Port Arthur. And as a result, I know that sometimes the Union officials were not doing what I wanted them to do. In fact, once they were going against the will of the majority of union members. We had to force a vote to go back to work, against the very firm opposition of the union leadership. Often times the union leadership likes to be "in charge" and the are most in charge when they are leading a strike. They didn't care that it was killing some of us that were trying to pay a house note and raise a family. They wanted what they wanted, not what the membership wanted. Not saying that is the case in this situation, but it sometimes happens. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For those who care for truth and facts instead of mindless ignorant rhetoric. http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17631/oil_workers_on_strike That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. I never said any such thing, nor do I believe it. I once was a member of the OCAW at a large refinery in Port Arthur. And as a result, I know that sometimes the Union officials were not doing what I wanted them to do. In fact, once they were going against the will of the majority of union members. We had to force a vote to go back to work, against the very firm opposition of the union leadership. Often times the union leadership likes to be "in charge" and the are most in charge when they are leading a strike. They didn't care that it was killing some of us that were trying to pay a house note and raise a family. They wanted what they wanted, not what the membership wanted. Not saying that is the case in this situation, but it sometimes happens. Thats true. Luckily I havent seen (and Ive been looking) for that mentality out of our guys. I havent seen it yet, but its always possible that it could start going that way after long enough. At that point I will have to make a decision if it comes to it. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:07:58 PM EDT
[#25]
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From reading that interview, it seems to be a lot more about holding non-signatory parties (new company owners) hostage to the agreements you've extorted, not letting independent contractors near your rice bowl, and getting more time off because you're too tired. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. From reading that interview, it seems to be a lot more about holding non-signatory parties (new company owners) hostage to the agreements you've extorted, not letting independent contractors near your rice bowl, and getting more time off because you're too tired. I have seen 2 people in my craft line get seriously injured in the last 2 years as a result of being fatigued. One guy cut 2 of his fingers off, the other got caught in between a 22,000 pound fin fan and a hand rail and broke his pelvis and some ribs. These guys were on 16 hour days for over a 2 weeks in a row. Ive worked to the point of true fatigue. Its worse than being drunk and trying to do the same task. Add that factor into a place that boils oil and hydrocarbons and bad things always happen. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:14:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesnt sound like anything was accomplished in national negotiations this week. I would expect to see at least 2 more decent sized refineries put on strike this weekend based off the trend so far. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:18:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We dont even know what our pay is going to do once a contract is signed. We gave them our proposals of what USW is asking for, but USW wont even discuss it further until the safety concerns/staffing levels are addressed. Personally, my pay can fluctuate +/- $20K per year depending on how much OT I feel like working. So whenever we get back to work, I really wont notice a huge difference. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We used to calculate how much money we were losing each day of the strike to find out how long we would be off before we could not make-up the wages lost even at a higher wage. It was a distressingly short time. You are probably past the point of no return already. We dont even know what our pay is going to do once a contract is signed. We gave them our proposals of what USW is asking for, but USW wont even discuss it further until the safety concerns/staffing levels are addressed. Personally, my pay can fluctuate +/- $20K per year depending on how much OT I feel like working. So whenever we get back to work, I really wont notice a huge difference. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:21:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But, but,but.....ARF has told me that union members are the lowest form of life on the planet. Even worse than dirt and Nancy Pelosi. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For those who care for truth and facts instead of mindless ignorant rhetoric. http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17631/oil_workers_on_strike That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. But, but,but.....ARF has told me that union members are the lowest form of life on the planet. Even worse than dirt and Nancy Pelosi. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:28:44 PM EDT
[#29]
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The problem is many of there "safety concerns" are bullshit. Like them calling for companies to have to use Union contractors where they never have before because USW says its a "safety concern". And the staffing levels they want for some areas is ridiculous. The USW is attempting to make more good little Union thigs places to collect paychecks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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We used to calculate how much money we were losing each day of the strike to find out how long we would be off before we could not make-up the wages lost even at a higher wage. It was a distressingly short time. You are probably past the point of no return already. We dont even know what our pay is going to do once a contract is signed. We gave them our proposals of what USW is asking for, but USW wont even discuss it further until the safety concerns/staffing levels are addressed. Personally, my pay can fluctuate +/- $20K per year depending on how much OT I feel like working. So whenever we get back to work, I really wont notice a huge difference. Yes and No. Firstly, I dont look at any group and assume their intentions are 100% honest. I look at the unions the same way, but I can only go off of what I know, not speculation. If they were to use non union workers or even outside union workers, they would be trained just like we are. The union contractors would go in there and immediately demand a contract for that facility. The non union contractors would be run around as the company sees fit and after enough people get killed and hurt, they would also be wanting a contract. The non union side of things is more regulated by other area unions more so than us. We have no language in our contract that says they cant us non union labor. The other locals have certain stipulations on non union companies working inside union staffed mills/refineries/etc. The non union companies will sign a contract with those unions to hire XX amount of union workers per XX non union. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:28:53 PM EDT
[#30]
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I have seen 2 people in my craft line get seriously injured in the last 2 years as a result of being fatigued. One guy cut 2 of his fingers off, the other got caught in between a 22,000 pound fin fan and a hand rail and broke his pelvis and some ribs. These guys were on 16 hour days for over a 2 weeks in a row. Ive worked to the point of true fatigue. Its worse than being drunk and trying to do the same task. Add that factor into a place that boils oil and hydrocarbons and bad things always happen. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. From reading that interview, it seems to be a lot more about holding non-signatory parties (new company owners) hostage to the agreements you've extorted, not letting independent contractors near your rice bowl, and getting more time off because you're too tired. I have seen 2 people in my craft line get seriously injured in the last 2 years as a result of being fatigued. One guy cut 2 of his fingers off, the other got caught in between a 22,000 pound fin fan and a hand rail and broke his pelvis and some ribs. These guys were on 16 hour days for over a 2 weeks in a row. Ive worked to the point of true fatigue. Its worse than being drunk and trying to do the same task. Add that factor into a place that boils oil and hydrocarbons and bad things always happen. Illinois has an anti-fatigue law. You can work 7, 12's in a row, but not 8. You have to have at least 48 hours off between what they call "work sets". In a way it is good. I have heard of some guys volunteering for an overtime shift in the middle between work sets. Then when the weekend comes up, they can't be forced to work over time. From what I have heard, since oil is priced so low now, or that the difference between WCS and WTI is not as much, the refineries are looking to not be as profitable this year. In 2014, a local refinery had a profit of $285 million. This year it is projected at only $90 million. So they are looking to cut costs in maintennance. That will only work so long until something leaks, catches fire, or blows up. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:30:10 PM EDT
[#31]
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How can you claim to have concern for the safety of the community you work in yet walk away from a running refinery? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For those who care for truth and facts instead of mindless ignorant rhetoric. http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17631/oil_workers_on_strike That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. But, but,but.....ARF has told me that union members are the lowest form of life on the planet. Even worse than dirt and Nancy Pelosi. We absolutely did not just drop what we were doing and walk away. We have a 24 hour turnover period from the time the strike notice is given. If at any time there is a unit upset during that time, our operations personnel stay until the problem is fixed and then continue with the turnover process. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:31:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my CEO gave up his entire salary, every employee would get $312/year more. His leadership is worth a lot more than that to me. I'd even pay more if we could be guaranteed a CEO who performed even better. I'd trivially make it back with the increase in share price of my company stock. Your comment drives right to the heart of what people say about Obama: "Small men fret over how to split up the pie. Big men focus on creating more pie." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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We got fucked and our CEO got a new house in Tahoe and a 100% raise. Your comment drives right to the heart of what people say about Obama: "Small men fret over how to split up the pie. Big men focus on creating more pie." Well put. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:36:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The carteling of skilled labor is not anti free market. In fact it is very definition of free market economics. The majority is GD's hatred for Unions is borne out of labor's alignment with Democrats who are anti gun and the co-oping of labor by commies and progressives which started in the 1920s. It is a bit disingenuous to argue that Union greed (which certainly exists same as corporate greed) has had an effect on the American economy in the last 30 years. Union membership is like 11% if you take out public sector civil service unions I bet it is less than 5%. The irony to me is a lack of pensions is going to herald in more socialist federal spending programs in the long run. I am in my 30s. I know plenty of people in their 50s and 60s who have little to no savings. They sure as hell are going to vote for whomever promises them money when they have none. Unions serve in as a check. They are not perfect. Nor is corporate America. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How does it feel to hate free markets? The carteling of skilled labor is not anti free market. In fact it is very definition of free market economics. The majority is GD's hatred for Unions is borne out of labor's alignment with Democrats who are anti gun and the co-oping of labor by commies and progressives which started in the 1920s. It is a bit disingenuous to argue that Union greed (which certainly exists same as corporate greed) has had an effect on the American economy in the last 30 years. Union membership is like 11% if you take out public sector civil service unions I bet it is less than 5%. The irony to me is a lack of pensions is going to herald in more socialist federal spending programs in the long run. I am in my 30s. I know plenty of people in their 50s and 60s who have little to no savings. They sure as hell are going to vote for whomever promises them money when they have none. Unions serve in as a check. They are not perfect. Nor is corporate America. Derppppp, union is the opposite of free market, it's price fixing. If I call up all the other businesses in my industry and tell them all not to pay. Anyone over $8, is that free market too? |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:39:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What am I lying about? The government is elbow deep in interfering with free markets. Including special protections for Unions but also special protections for certian industries. It goes both ways. Corporations are people now. The truth isn't black and white. Corporations = Good. Unions = Evil. Unions can be as greedy as corporations and vice versa. Mostly it is just about making money. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How does it feel to hate free markets? The carteling of skilled labor is not anti free market. In fact it is very definition of free market economics. The majority is GD's hatred for Unions is borne out of labor's alignment with Democrats who are anti gun and the co-oping of labor by commies and progressives which started in the 1920s. It is a bit disingenuous to argue that Union greed (which certainly exists same as corporate greed) has had an effect on the American economy in the last 30 years. Union membership is like 11% if you take out public sector civil service unions I bet it is less than 5%. The irony to me is a lack of pensions is going to herald in more socialist federal spending programs in the long run. I am in my 30s. I know plenty of people in their 50s and 60s who have little to no savings. They sure as hell are going to vote for whomever promises them money when they have none. Your first statement is a lie. It's specifically that. Only someone brainwashed or with an agenda would say that. If it wasn't, it would not take the power of the government to keep it happening. Txl What am I lying about? The government is elbow deep in interfering with free markets. Including special protections for Unions but also special protections for certian industries. It goes both ways. Corporations are people now. The truth isn't black and white. Corporations = Good. Unions = Evil. Unions can be as greedy as corporations and vice versa. Mostly it is just about making money. You're real heavy on the derp. What if a union isn't working for a corporation? 
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:40:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes and No. Firstly, I dont look at any group and assume their intentions are 100% honest. I look at the unions the same way, but I can only go off of what I know, not speculation. If they were to use non union workers or even outside union workers, they would be trained just like we are. The union contractors would go in there and immediately demand a contract for that facility. The non union contractors would be run around as the company sees fit and after enough people get killed and hurt, they would also be wanting a contract. The non union side of things is more regulated by other area unions more so than us. We have no language in our contract that says they cant us non union labor. The other locals have certain stipulations on non union companies working inside union staffed mills/refineries/etc. The non union companies will sign a contract with those unions to hire XX amount of union workers per XX non union. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We used to calculate how much money we were losing each day of the strike to find out how long we would be off before we could not make-up the wages lost even at a higher wage. It was a distressingly short time. You are probably past the point of no return already. We dont even know what our pay is going to do once a contract is signed. We gave them our proposals of what USW is asking for, but USW wont even discuss it further until the safety concerns/staffing levels are addressed. Personally, my pay can fluctuate +/- $20K per year depending on how much OT I feel like working. So whenever we get back to work, I really wont notice a huge difference. Yes and No. Firstly, I dont look at any group and assume their intentions are 100% honest. I look at the unions the same way, but I can only go off of what I know, not speculation. If they were to use non union workers or even outside union workers, they would be trained just like we are. The union contractors would go in there and immediately demand a contract for that facility. The non union contractors would be run around as the company sees fit and after enough people get killed and hurt, they would also be wanting a contract. The non union side of things is more regulated by other area unions more so than us. We have no language in our contract that says they cant us non union labor. The other locals have certain stipulations on non union companies working inside union staffed mills/refineries/etc. The non union companies will sign a contract with those unions to hire XX amount of union workers per XX non union. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:44:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We absolutely did not just drop what we were doing and walk away. We have a 24 hour turnover period from the time the strike notice is given. If at any time there is a unit upset during that time, our operations personnel stay until the problem is fixed and then continue with the turnover process. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That is actually the opinions of a union member and a union staffer. A member of management might have slightly different takes on the issues. I work at one of the refineries soon to join the fold and I basically agree with the article and their point. This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. People can mouth off all you want about how ALL union members are pieces of shit. One could say the same about any group and you'd be wrong and you know it. But, but,but.....ARF has told me that union members are the lowest form of life on the planet. Even worse than dirt and Nancy Pelosi. We absolutely did not just drop what we were doing and walk away. We have a 24 hour turnover period from the time the strike notice is given. If at any time there is a unit upset during that time, our operations personnel stay until the problem is fixed and then continue with the turnover process. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 6:50:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From reading that interview, it seems to be a lot more about holding non-signatory parties (new company owners) hostage to the agreements you've extorted, not letting independent contractors near your rice bowl, and getting more time off because you're too tired. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is NOT about wages. It is about safety. Our safety. The safety of the communities we work in. From reading that interview, it seems to be a lot more about holding non-signatory parties (new company owners) hostage to the agreements you've extorted, not letting independent contractors near your rice bowl, and getting more time off because you're too tired. Extortion? It's fucking called NEGOTIATION. Too tired? You work 13 12 hour shifts ON and one day off and after 2 months of that come and talk to me. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 7:02:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derppppp, union is the opposite of free market, it's price fixing. If I call up all the other businesses in my industry and tell them all not to pay. Anyone over $8, is that free market too? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How does it feel to hate free markets? The carteling of skilled labor is not anti free market. In fact it is very definition of free market economics. The majority is GD's hatred for Unions is borne out of labor's alignment with Democrats who are anti gun and the co-oping of labor by commies and progressives which started in the 1920s. It is a bit disingenuous to argue that Union greed (which certainly exists same as corporate greed) has had an effect on the American economy in the last 30 years. Union membership is like 11% if you take out public sector civil service unions I bet it is less than 5%. The irony to me is a lack of pensions is going to herald in more socialist federal spending programs in the long run. I am in my 30s. I know plenty of people in their 50s and 60s who have little to no savings. They sure as hell are going to vote for whomever promises them money when they have none. Unions serve in as a check. They are not perfect. Nor is corporate America. Derppppp, union is the opposite of free market, it's price fixing. If I call up all the other businesses in my industry and tell them all not to pay. Anyone over $8, is that free market too? You mean like apple, google, and adobe did: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/apple-google-intel-adobe-reach-new-deal-employee-poaching-suit-n287241 My guess is those 4 companies aren't the first ones to agree to not hire each others employees and exchange salary information. They were just the first ones who got caught and had a suit brought against them. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 7:34:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mean like apple, google, and adobe did: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/apple-google-intel-adobe-reach-new-deal-employee-poaching-suit-n287241 My guess is those 4 companies aren't the first ones to agree to not hire each others employees and exchange salary information. They were just the first ones who got caught and had a suit brought against them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How does it feel to hate free markets? The carteling of skilled labor is not anti free market. In fact it is very definition of free market economics. The majority is GD's hatred for Unions is borne out of labor's alignment with Democrats who are anti gun and the co-oping of labor by commies and progressives which started in the 1920s. It is a bit disingenuous to argue that Union greed (which certainly exists same as corporate greed) has had an effect on the American economy in the last 30 years. Union membership is like 11% if you take out public sector civil service unions I bet it is less than 5%. The irony to me is a lack of pensions is going to herald in more socialist federal spending programs in the long run. I am in my 30s. I know plenty of people in their 50s and 60s who have little to no savings. They sure as hell are going to vote for whomever promises them money when they have none. Unions serve in as a check. They are not perfect. Nor is corporate America. Derppppp, union is the opposite of free market, it's price fixing. If I call up all the other businesses in my industry and tell them all not to pay. Anyone over $8, is that free market too? You mean like apple, google, and adobe did: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/apple-google-intel-adobe-reach-new-deal-employee-poaching-suit-n287241 My guess is those 4 companies aren't the first ones to agree to not hire each others employees and exchange salary information. They were just the first ones who got caught and had a suit brought against them. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 7:41:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derppppp, union is the opposite of free market, it's price fixing. If I call up all the other businesses in my industry and tell them all not to pay. Anyone over $8, is that free market too? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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How does it feel to hate free markets? The carteling of skilled labor is not anti free market. In fact it is very definition of free market economics. The majority is GD's hatred for Unions is borne out of labor's alignment with Democrats who are anti gun and the co-oping of labor by commies and progressives which started in the 1920s. It is a bit disingenuous to argue that Union greed (which certainly exists same as corporate greed) has had an effect on the American economy in the last 30 years. Union membership is like 11% if you take out public sector civil service unions I bet it is less than 5%. The irony to me is a lack of pensions is going to herald in more socialist federal spending programs in the long run. I am in my 30s. I know plenty of people in their 50s and 60s who have little to no savings. They sure as hell are going to vote for whomever promises them money when they have none. Unions serve in as a check. They are not perfect. Nor is corporate America. Derppppp, union is the opposite of free market, it's price fixing. If I call up all the other businesses in my industry and tell them all not to pay. Anyone over $8, is that free market too? Like this? Or this? Let's not pretend this shit doesn't happen |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 7:47:15 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know people working strike duty, they are more understaffed than the levels your union says are unsafe either your union lied or you guys left the remaining workers and community in a more unsafe position. In 1984 or so we had a strike that lasted 8 months. I was in management by then and worked the strike, 12 hours a day for 8 months. We had about one-forth as many workers as usual. Accidents went way down. Mean time between failure went way up. Productivity went way up. Profitability went way up. The union taught management something that it really didn't want management to learn.........That we had too many people. It resulted in a huge layoff when the strike was over, and all crafts were consolidated into a Mastercraft position. Strikes do not always work as intended. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 7:50:24 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In 1984 or so we had a strike that lasted 8 months. I was in management by then and worked the strike, 12 hours a day for 8 months. We had about one-forth as many workers as usual. Accidents went way down. Mean time between failure went way up. Productivity went way up. Profitability went way up. The union taught management something that it really didn't want management to learn.........That we had too many people. It resulted in a huge layoff when the strike was over, and all crafts were consolidated into a Mastercraft position. Strikes do not always work as intended. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I know people working strike duty, they are more understaffed than the levels your union says are unsafe either your union lied or you guys left the remaining workers and community in a more unsafe position. In 1984 or so we had a strike that lasted 8 months. I was in management by then and worked the strike, 12 hours a day for 8 months. We had about one-forth as many workers as usual. Accidents went way down. Mean time between failure went way up. Productivity went way up. Profitability went way up. The union taught management something that it really didn't want management to learn.........That we had too many people. It resulted in a huge layoff when the strike was over, and all crafts were consolidated into a Mastercraft position. Strikes do not always work as intended. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 8:32:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've heard similar stories from those that worked that strike. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I know people working strike duty, they are more understaffed than the levels your union says are unsafe either your union lied or you guys left the remaining workers and community in a more unsafe position. In 1984 or so we had a strike that lasted 8 months. I was in management by then and worked the strike, 12 hours a day for 8 months. We had about one-forth as many workers as usual. Accidents went way down. Mean time between failure went way up. Productivity went way up. Profitability went way up. The union taught management something that it really didn't want management to learn.........That we had too many people. It resulted in a huge layoff when the strike was over, and all crafts were consolidated into a Mastercraft position. Strikes do not always work as intended. No doubt that has happened before. Meanwhile, one of the refineries on strike shut down because it didnt have the manpower within management to complete the maintenance work necessary to keep it running. Each place has its own unique circumstances because of the work needed to stay operating and the people that are in there who are supposedly capable of performing the work. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 9:28:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats a good thing, right?. People have been going in and out of certain gates every day. I think if people are conducting themselves well then it makes us look less like "union thugs" and gives a positive perception of what we are trying to accomplish. As far as the picket lines go, we have been starting to do every other day rotations at 4 hour shifts. You will see the number diminish a little bit as time goes one, but at least one person will always be there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I "crossed" the "picket line" yesterday. Lazy union pigs are so lazy they won't even show up to their own picket line. There was a grand total of 10 people there. They had signs and bullhorns, and spent more time harassing the traffic passing than trying to berate those of us who "crossed." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thats a good thing, right?. People have been going in and out of certain gates every day. I think if people are conducting themselves well then it makes us look less like "union thugs" and gives a positive perception of what we are trying to accomplish. As far as the picket lines go, we have been starting to do every other day rotations at 4 hour shifts. You will see the number diminish a little bit as time goes one, but at least one person will always be there. wait, people only picket for 4 hours every other day? did I read that right? way to show the employer that the union is united and determined you all should be there every day you'd normally be working for the normal length of time you'd be working the grievance might be legitimate but if I was an employer and the full union membership couldn't even show up every day for full days I'm not sure how fast I'd be willing to go to the table |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 9:40:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wait, people only picket for 4 hours every other day? did I read that right? way to show the employer that the union is united and determined you all should be there every day you'd normally be working for the normal length of time you'd be working the grievance might be legitimate but if I was an employer and the full union membership couldn't even show up every day for full days I'm not sure how fast I'd be willing to go to the table Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I "crossed" the "picket line" yesterday. Lazy union pigs are so lazy they won't even show up to their own picket line. There was a grand total of 10 people there. They had signs and bullhorns, and spent more time harassing the traffic passing than trying to berate those of us who "crossed." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Thats a good thing, right?. People have been going in and out of certain gates every day. I think if people are conducting themselves well then it makes us look less like "union thugs" and gives a positive perception of what we are trying to accomplish. As far as the picket lines go, we have been starting to do every other day rotations at 4 hour shifts. You will see the number diminish a little bit as time goes one, but at least one person will always be there. wait, people only picket for 4 hours every other day? did I read that right? way to show the employer that the union is united and determined you all should be there every day you'd normally be working for the normal length of time you'd be working the grievance might be legitimate but if I was an employer and the full union membership couldn't even show up every day for full days I'm not sure how fast I'd be willing to go to the table Sure, but keep in mind that a lot of these people have families. They are now allocating their time to help their spouse with day to day stuff. I have no kids and my wife works most of the day, so I can make it out there whenever I please. Some people are the only source of income and have found side work while this is getting handled. Then there are the people that have no intention on crossing the line or coming to picket. Im not one to judge someone elses situation, but everyone has their reason whether I agree with it or not. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 9:50:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Served,
Have you seen or do you know of any of the union members crossing the lines to work? If so, wat are the picketers saying about them? |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 9:56:57 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope, it is an NLRB requirement. However, how much they really "try" to help you is another matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'd have to check, but I have read that the law does NOT say the union has to represent you even if you aren't a member, it's just often in the union contract. Of course, there may be state laws saying this, so I don't know. Nope, it is an NLRB requirement. However, how much they really "try" to help you is another matter. DFR |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 10:03:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Served, Have you seen or do you know of any of the union members crossing the lines to work? If so, wat are the picketers saying about them? As of now there have been no in house union guys that have crossed the lines. There have been some local pipefitters, teamsters and operators (craneman) that have. The attitude is split 50/50 I think. Half think like me and know we cant judge a man by how he supports his family, the other half is upset/angry (mostly the older members), but I think they understand it how I do. No violence or heckling (other than under their breath) We are choosing to strike, we cant choose what others do. We've made our stand. |
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Posted: 2/13/2015 10:13:40 PM EDT
[#49]
I hope enough people cross the line to keep the refineries up and running.
That way they can make the strike last for a long time. That should starve out the union strikers. If the "safety" conditions are so bad call OSHA. If the pay is less than you think you're worth, why wouldn't you just go work somewhere else instead of pouting and "demanding" that for which you feel entitled? As I said before, I just hope its a long strike and the union loses. I'm just not a union supporter.
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Posted: 2/13/2015 10:53:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope enough people cross the line to keep the refineries up and running. That way they can make the strike last for a long time. That should starve out the union strikers. If the "safety" conditions are so bad call OSHA. If the pay is less than you think you're worth, why wouldn't you just go work somewhere else instead of pouting and "demanding" that for which you feel entitled? As I said before, I just hope its a long strike and the union loses. I'm just not a union supporter. What!!?
You dont say?! |
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