Even if what Dave_A says is the absolute truth and the BATFE was after this fellow because he's some kind of a "Straw" dealer, no way in hell should we tolerate or say "OK" to these kinds of methods and legal contortions to catch someone they deem a bad guy.  If he truly was a bad guy, then he broke a real law or a bunch of real laws, if he did so they MUST PROVE IT.  

A conviction not related to his supposed bad guy deeds based on "should have known" is pure bullshit, and anyone FOR this kind of stuff deserves it to happen to them ten fold.

Private citizens cannot racially profile.  For that matter, they cannot violate civil rights.  That's appiles only to govt employees.

You can refuse a sale for any reason you want to dream up.  Wrong color socks? Go for it.

ACtually, both  the TX chl and DL come with new security features.
Besides watermarks and such, it also has your birth date on your picture,
The one on your pic is raised (embossed, similar to a credit card, but a little less)
And the date listed with the other info is 2 tone, the left side of the letters are red, the right side is blue.

NOt sure if they fit the federal definition of secure ID cards. but much harder to fake than the old ones.

TXL

if i see a banger or someone that looks like a banger approaching to look at a gun i am selling, i'll take the price off my gunbox  and tell them it's $400 more than it's worth..
if they still still want it i'll make up another reason.. it's the beauty of not being in business..

Then, based on the article, why was he convicted?

I ain't getting this one.

Plus, you can be prosecuted for civil rights violations whether you are a private citizen or governmental entity, etc.

The classic examples were the KKK prosecutions decades ago.

That's racist. Avoid only the ones with sombreros, bullet bandoleers, huge mustaches, and a stubborn refusal to wear the badge that you offer them. Like this guy.



Anyone else, they're okay, you can sell to them. Ignore the wire coming out of their shoe, and the five white guys with sunglasses that are pretending not to be watching you for the last three hours.

agreed.. Ends do not justify the means.  I choose Jefferson over Machiavelli

Forced racism, brought to you by the obama justice department.

This is my shocked face.  

holy shit, I remember when this went down.

IIRC, there was a big hullabaloo over the ATF leaning on the show promoter to ban private FTF sales of firearms on the premises.

Well, DAVE A thinks it's kosher....

i remember that, but it was far more guns IIRC

ETA: this it?? http://www.correctionsone.com/arrests-and-sentencing/articles/2555352-Ex-FBI-agent-gets-2-years-in-Texas-gun-selling-case/

the gun show lost its regular location as the Local PD pressured the renter to no longer allow that location to support illegal activities.

If you sell a gun to an illegal you should have the book thrown at you.  Anyone that lives in a border state can tell illegal Mexicans apart Legal immigrants from Mexico. Yes their language, slang, demeanor, clothing, dental work, grooming, accent all comes it to play.  The differences are as clear as those between Dr Dre and Bryant Gumble.

I will never sell you a gun.

Fuck that. By that analogy if some felon goes to a dealer and fills out the paperwork with fake ID and passes every check and buys the gun the dealer is still busted for selling to a felon.



 

Are you God?

I'm just askin'.

No.  Just a wizard.

Seller has/had a shitty attorney.

You're right.  I was wrong.  I was stupid for posting such a thing.  My apologies to you.  Your reply was thoughtful, mine was the knee jerk reaction.

Soooo for a gun seller:  hispanic, spanish speaker, in cowboy clothing = proof buyer is illegal.

For Sheriff Joe: hispanic, spanish spkr, cowboy clothing = proof you are racially profiling
WTF?


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

So a private citizen was held  remiss and legally culpable because he didn't apply "profiling" of the sort that the government refuses to do ?

Defense attorney- "Give me this guy you got for DWI and I'll give you one later"

Prosecutor- "No problem, you know that guy that sold the gun? I want him."

Anyone from Texas here?  Anyone ever visited Texas?  Anyone here ever drove through Texas?

This is nothing unusual and no reason to doubt Texan citizenship.

Texas drivers license?  

Well, the jury are assholes.

And so is the judge.

If you don't want foreigners buying guns, don't give them drivers licenses.

This is why I only sell guns off through my local gun shop. To me it's worth it to pay a 15% commission. What ever money I make ends up going back to the gun shop for another gun anyway.

Did anyone check the chief's green card?  Is HE a citizen?  

Fuck this guy

But let me ask this...

If the Huerta's were being followed around, presumably because the LEO's knew they were not US citizens, why were they not arrested at the get go? Aliens attempting to illegally purchase guns.

Or was this not really just entrapment, an excuse to close the gun show, and to put the fear of ATF into any gun sellers?

There's no such thing as an illegal Cuban...



So he's at a minimum a legal, perminant-resident immigrant...



And shouldn't have had much trouble becoming a US Citizen.



 

They were confidential informants, and it's not entrapment...



Entrapment involves an agent of the government trying to badger you into committing a crime you were not pre-disposed to commit...



This guy was obviously pre-disposed to sell guns to folks who are prohibited.



 

Honestly, between the ATF actively going after essentially law abiding citizens, and the Justice Department giving preferential treatment to illegal aliens over citizens, this is ****ing insane. Add this into all the rest of the injustices going on, even those only targeting gun owners, and if "go time" hasn't already come and gone it never will. You're in a bad divorce and your ex-wife has a grudge? 'He hit me,' boom your guns are gone. You're trying to make some cash at a gun show? 'Here's my license Mr. Thanks.' Boom, felony, your guns are gone. You walk up to a suspicious parked car in front of your business? Boom, you're dead.

Holy fucking moses, what the fuck kind of stupid fucking bullshit is this shit.  I hope this goes all the way to the supreme court.

ETA:  Ok, my WTF is a bit less if this guy regularly operates a table at a gun show and "advertises" verbally that he can get you a gun w/o paperwork.

I live in Austin

I was born in Austin



Let me explain



This town was a town, now it is a CITY and slowly turning into a piece of shit because every Californian that can gets the fuck out of that state and runs to Texas because the jobs are here and the cost of living is cheap. I could go on but



After speaking with many cops in APD most of them seem to hate ART "piece of shit" ACEVEDO

he turns down people that have "great knowledge and real life experience for pussy as straight out of college frat boys that end up fucking everything up" - quote from APD officer during a discussion we had after I got pulled over (I talked my way out of that ticket )

Except that he didn't commit a crime at all.  The law says you can't KNOWINGLY sell to a prohibited person.

Their argument was that he should be convicted on a point of law that doesn't exist.

I'm no lawyer, but his conviction looks like an easy overturn to me.

Here is the Federal Guidelines:


Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition?
Yes, a person who —

1.Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
2.Is a fugitive from justice;
3.Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
4.Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
5.Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
6.Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
7.Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship;
8.Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
9.Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
10.Cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm.

Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information.

[18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 478.32]

So it sounds like he could be guilty of breaking Federal law.  But he was convicted under a Texas statute in State court?

eta: Of course, I don't buy the idea that cowboy hat + brown skin = reason to suspect that a person is an illegal immigrant.

Guys, is there a link to the case or case number on this one?

Just searched the Texas Western District for all of Sam Spark's cases and there are none with "Gun" or "Copeland" in them for 2000-2010 that are relevant.  There was another case heard on 7/20/2010...

Court Doc Search Linky



only one with "Copeland" in the tile:



only one with "gun":

Hey, Bama, don't hold back.  Tell us what your really think about the APD Cheif.

True, there is no real hard number, like you sell 6 guns and you're ok but 7 makes you a dealer.  Actually the ATF doesn't look and how many guns you sell, but rather how many you buy then quickly sell.  The crime is not selling guns, but dealing guns, which is buying then selling on a regular basis.

If you had a personal collection of 200 guns that you've owned for years and decided to start selling them to pay off bills, you could rent tables at gun shows and sell them all and the ATF couldn't touch you.  It's when you are regularly buying guns, then turning around and selling them in a short period of time (weeks or months) that the ATF considers you are "engaging in the business" and need an FFL.

Look, if you bought a new car to drive around every year or two, then sold it when you bought a new one, you're not a car dealer.  But if every month you bought a car just to turn around and sell it a month later, then you ARE a car dealer.

Over the last few decades I've been to gun shows in Texas, and specifically Saxet (Texas spelled backwards, in case you didn't know) shows, and I saw a lot of regular sellers at their tables with professionally made plastic signs proclaiming "No Paperwork" and it always gave me the willies.

I don't know the details of this case.  But from the report posted here I do know that there is a whole lot of info here being left out.  I think he was one of those guys, and the number guns he was buying and then selling was way over anything that could be considered "collecting for personal use."  I also think this whole hispanic issue is just a smoke screen.

As we frequently encounter with most firearm laws, it's very vague and up to interpretation. This is how the BATF gets away with what they get away with.  What does "reasonable" mean when it comes to believing that a person is on the prohibited list? I would say if they have a Texas drivers license, that means they presented the required documentation to the Dept of Public Safety to obtain that drivers license. Does DPS give a drivers license to someone that cannot produce documentation that shows they are in the US legally? I'm guessing no.

HaHaHa, so it's okay to require "reasonable suspicion" when it suits their needs but when it's to keep the stupid illegals out of the country Libtards and XPCustom get their panties in a bunch and scream Racist. People make me sick.

Now I wonder if I'm safe even after the PICS/NICS call and approval.

What if the ID is Stolen ?

What if the ATF says "the guy was a felon" and he passed the BR check anyway?

Can they arrest me?