User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/21/2015 2:51:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the ATF is more likely to lose this case than the Form 1 machinegun cases that will brought soon. They should have cut their losses. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1624460_ATF_ruling_may_have_opened_door_to_new_machine_guns__Pg9_Form_1_APPROVED_Pg18_ATF_call_audio.html I like seeing the BATFE on def. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2015 3:12:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like seeing the BATFE on def. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think the ATF is more likely to lose this case than the Form 1 machinegun cases that will brought soon. They should have cut their losses. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1624460_ATF_ruling_may_have_opened_door_to_new_machine_guns__Pg9_Form_1_APPROVED_Pg18_ATF_call_audio.html I like seeing the BATFE on def. Hit them on as many fronts as we can. It's time for their bullshit to be called out for what it is. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/22/2015 12:51:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hit them on as many fronts as we can. It's time for their bullshit to be called out for what it is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think the ATF is more likely to lose this case than the Form 1 machinegun cases that will brought soon. They should have cut their losses. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1624460_ATF_ruling_may_have_opened_door_to_new_machine_guns__Pg9_Form_1_APPROVED_Pg18_ATF_call_audio.html I like seeing the BATFE on def. Hit them on as many fronts as we can. It's time for their bullshit to be called out for what it is. Who wants to start a gofundme for an m855 law suit? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/23/2015 1:33:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who wants to start a gofundme for an m855 law suit? would if I knew how |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/23/2015 8:26:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Any new updates on this?
I expected to hear something by now, but I guess this will proceed at the speed of government. I really didn't expect the ATF to continue pushing this hard and potentially be forced to finally state what exactly constitutes a silencer. -Mike |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/26/2015 1:28:36 AM EDT
[#6]
I'll try to update the First post with links this weekend. Several motions have been filed arguing back and forth.
The Law Firm is hosting most documents at michellawyers.com/sig-sauer-v-batfe-new-hampshire/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2015 6:51:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Pretrial statements were due 5/4. Does anyone have them?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2015 10:21:32 PM EDT
[#8]
It appears both parties ask for a 60 Day extension on 4/29/2015 , judge set the following:
04/30/2015 TRIAL NOTICE: Bench Trial set for the two-week period beginning 8/4/2015 09:30 AM before Judge Paul J. Barbadoro. Final Pretrial Conference set for 7/21/2015 03:00 PM before Judge Paul J. Barbadoro.
Pretrial Statements due 7/1/2015. LR 16.2(d) Objections due 7/15/2015. (vln) (Entered: 04/30/2015) |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2015 1:51:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It appears both parties ask for a 60 Day extension on 4/29/2015 , judge set the following: Quote HistoryQuoted:
It appears both parties ask for a 60 Day extension on 4/29/2015 , judge set the following: 04/30/2015 TRIAL NOTICE: Bench Trial set for the two-week period beginning 8/4/2015 09:30 AM before Judge Paul J. Barbadoro. Final Pretrial Conference set for 7/21/2015 03:00 PM before Judge Paul J. Barbadoro.
Pretrial Statements due 7/1/2015. LR 16.2(d) Objections due 7/15/2015. (vln) (Entered: 04/30/2015) Damn it all.. Put on the gloves and get down to it already 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2015 4:11:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn it all.. Put on the gloves and get down to it already Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It appears both parties ask for a 60 Day extension on 4/29/2015 , judge set the following: 04/30/2015 TRIAL NOTICE: Bench Trial set for the two-week period beginning 8/4/2015 09:30 AM before Judge Paul J. Barbadoro. Final Pretrial Conference set for 7/21/2015 03:00 PM before Judge Paul J. Barbadoro. Pretrial Statements due 7/1/2015. LR 16.2(d) Objections due 7/15/2015. (vln) (Entered: 04/30/2015) Damn it all.. Put on the gloves and get down to it already |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2015 4:22:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What happened at Sig? It's as if one day they had a meeting and said, "You know what? Fuck the ATF." What happened here in the USA? It's as if one day all the citizens had a meeting and said, "You know what? Fuck the ATF." A.W.D. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2015 4:28:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No pics of the disputed device in OP or link. Fail. It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. Like those NFA regulated oil filter adapters that aren't suppressors until you put on a filter? A.W.D. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2015 5:32:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck.. Since the 1986 FOPA legislation, any part of a silencer is considered a silencer itself. Someone will be along shorty to expound to us all again how FOPA/Hughes was such a great thing. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2015 5:33:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No pics of the disputed device in OP or link. Fail. It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. Reminds me a lot of the ATF ruling on open bolt semi-autos. They are like the department of Pre-crime. It's banned because you might change it. Next they will ban penises because you might rape someone. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/23/2015 11:03:26 AM EDT
[#15]
What ended up happening?
ETA: I see the MPX for sale now, does that mean sig won, or did they just change the design? And when will they offer it in 300 BLK? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/23/2015 11:08:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What ended up happening? ETA: I see the MPX for sale now, does that mean sig won, or did they just change the design? And when will they offer it in 300 BLK? No the case isn't over. The MCX is available in .300 and has been for several months. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/23/2015 11:12:31 AM EDT
[#17]
They changed the design, either a pistol or a SBR, no title one rifles are offered with standard A2ish muzzle device. As far as .300 BO MPX, never, as it is a pistol caliber pistol/carbine.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/29/2015 2:02:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Is it July 1 yet?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2015 2:24:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Updated court record from today:
RESCHEDULING NOTICE of Hearing. Final Pretrial Conference set for 7/17/2015 04:00 PM beforeJudge Paul J. Barbadoro. (vln) |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2015 6:24:20 PM EDT
[#20]
The Motion hearing was held 7-17:
Minute Entry for proceedings held before Judge Paul J. Barbadoro. MOTION HEARING held on 7/17/2015 re[18] MOTION for Summary Judgment , [19] MOTION for Summary Judgment . Order to issue.
(Court Reporter: Sandra Bailey) (Pltfs Atty: Stephen P. Halbrook) (Defts Atty: William Ryan) (Total Hearing Time: 2:40) (vln) |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2015 8:13:58 PM EDT
[#21]
So was there a summary judgement? I assume not since we haven't heard anything.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2015 11:45:39 PM EDT
[#22]
No ruling yet. Each side argued to the judge that their view is correct and there is no need for a trial because they are right. Links to the motions are in the first post. The judge will make a ruling that someone is correct or it will go to trial. I believe the trial date is currently set for the week of 8/4/2015.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/22/2015 11:50:05 PM EDT
[#23]
Well, shit. I had my dealer order a P320, I'll get him to order a few spare mags too. Go Sig!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/6/2015 11:29:08 AM EDT
[#24]
Checked for updates this morning and this is what I got when I went to download the Transcript.
Full docket text for document 31:
TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings for Motion Hearing held on 7/17/2015. Court Reporter: Sandra Bailey, Telephone # XXXXXXXXXX. Transcript is available for public inspection, but may not be copied or otherwise reproduced, at the Clerk's Office for a period of 90 days. Additionally, only attorneys of record and pro se parties with an ECF login and password who purchase a transcript from the court reporter will have access to the transcript through PACER during this 90day period. If you would like to order a copy, please contact the court reporter at the above listed phone number. NOTICE: Any party who requests an original transcript has 21 days from service of this notice to determine whether it is necessary to redact any personal identifiers and, if so, to electronically file a Redaction Request. Redaction Request Follow Up 8/28/2015. Redacted Transcript Follow Up 9/8/2015. Release of Transcript Restriction set for 11/2/2015.(vln) |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/6/2015 11:31:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to seeing the transcript.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/6/2015 11:46:24 AM EDT
[#26]
Thanks for keeping this current. This case is a big deal, more than many of us can understand at this point.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2015 7:30:15 PM EDT
[#27]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2015 7:42:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for keeping this current. This case is a big deal, more than many of us can understand at this point. I'm guessing ATF made a mistake going after someone with $$ to fight them... |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2015 7:56:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryThanks for the link. It appears someone went to the court house to read the transcript. No "Court" document updates online. From the Article: The federal judge presiding over a case alleging a Sig Sauer muzzle device was misclassified as a silencer by federal regulators shot down the government’s argument but he didn’t exactly buy the company’s argument either, so he’s likely going to ask the feds to revise their ruling.
“My strong preference would be and current intention would be to remand the matter so that the (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives) could consider the issue under a correct standard,” said Judge Paul J. Barbadoro, according to the transcript of the hearing between Sig and the ATF in a New Hampshire federal court last month. Such a ruling would afford the ATF to once again classify the item as a silencer – devices that are heavily regulated – and provide a better argument to support such a decision. Barbadoro said the agency’s classification was just because the item contained features necessary for the function of a silencer but superfluous for a muzzle brake. But he would not defer to the ATF’s ruling because the agency failed to prove that Sig intended to circumvent federal law by mislabeling the item. “It looks to me like they manufactured the internal part of a silencer, they welded it to the gun to get it above 16 inches, and you just need to put a sleeve over it and you’ve got your standard issued silencer, that’s what it looks to me as a layperson, but that’s not the issue I’m talking to (the ATF) about,” the judge said of the device, which is a 9.5 inches long piece welded onto a 6.5-inch barrel. ....snip.... “It does appear to me that you guys (Sig and the ATF) know very well that this is a silencer part, and it does appear to me that this is not likely to have a significant market as a muzzle brake,” Barbadoro said. “So, whether that means it’s a silencer or not is an issue that the ATF should decide, but they need to do it under the correct standard, and they need to do it in a way that’s not arbitrary and capricious" |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2015 8:18:41 PM EDT
[#30]
More bullshit. I wish we could just kill the NFA already.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 2:09:54 AM EDT
[#31]
"I think substantively it’s a very important issue, this statute is a very significant statute, and I am not going to be the one to say without holding any trial, receiving any evidence, making any findings of fact, that I’m concluding as a matter of law that this is not a silencer and you can go ahead and sell it around the world. I’m not going to do that. That would – that is a – something that requires very careful consideration of evidence,” he said. Cliff notes: I'm not putting my name on this case. Too sticky to touch. 3 judges in appeals are more likely to take this on factually. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 4:22:24 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"I think substantively it’s a very important issue, this statute is a very significant statute, and I am not going to be the one to say without holding any trial, receiving any evidence, making any findings of fact, that I’m concluding as a matter of law that this is not a silencer and you can go ahead and sell it around the world. I’m not going to do that. That would – that is a – something that requires very careful consideration of evidence,” he said. Cliff notes: I'm not putting my name on this case. Too sticky to touch. 3 judges in appeals are more likely to take this on factually. He knows it's a silencer part, despite what sig says, but he also knows the law makes a distinction between "only" a silencer part and "can be used" as a silencer part. He's just not willing to stick his neck out either way. If you take anything that can be used as a silencer part and make it illegal I'm screwed, I have bins of fender washers and a bunch of pipes in the shop. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 8:24:12 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you take anything that can be used as a silencer part and make it illegal I'm screwed, I have bins of fender washers and a bunch of pipes in the shop. I wouldn't worry. The "muzzle brake" walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. A bin full of of fender washers and some pipe neither walks nor quacks. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 8:32:22 AM EDT
[#34]
"...they need to do it under the correct standard, and they need to do it in a way that’s not arbitrary and capricious" Yeah... but... that's kinda the way that the ATF works... |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 8:42:46 AM EDT
[#35]
hopefully sig appeals.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 8:44:42 AM EDT
[#36]
Shocker... FATF
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 8:55:07 AM EDT
[#37]
What a pile of horse shit.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 9:03:40 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "I think substantively it’s a very important issue, this statute is a very significant statute, and I am not going to be the one to say without holding any trial, receiving any evidence, making any findings of fact, that I’m concluding as a matter of law that this is not a silencer and you can go ahead and sell it around the world. I’m not going to do that. That would – that is a – something that requires very careful consideration of evidence,” he said. Cliff notes: I'm not putting my name on this case. Too sticky to touch. 3 judges in appeals are more likely to take this on factually. That's not what he's saying. And appeals courts are triers of law, not fact. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 9:08:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mono-core comes from the suppressor world. The majority of suppressor use a stack of baffles pressed against each other inside of a tube. Some newer suppressors use a mono-core design where one piece of metal is cut to make all of the baffles in a one piece stack. Brake's are pretty much all one piece, their might be some oddballs around that are assembled from multiple pieces but they are unusual. The terms is being used because a couple companies have started making dual purpose muzzle brake/baffle stack designs. We'll find out in time whether they get to keep making them as unregulated parts or not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SNIP
Are there lots of brakes that are not cut from single pieces of steel? I've never heard of a mono-core brake, it doesn't make sense, what is it the core of? Brake's are pretty much all one piece, their might be some oddballs around that are assembled from multiple pieces but they are unusual. The terms is being used because a couple companies have started making dual purpose muzzle brake/baffle stack designs. We'll find out in time whether they get to keep making them as unregulated parts or not. I believe that most of the linear compensator type muzzle devices are produced from multiple pieces that are welded together. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 9:12:41 AM EDT
[#40]
will they go after the sig brace too? who saw that and didn't immediately think "stock"
if this muzzle brake "could" be used as a suppressor, then the brace "could" be used as a stock and should be illegal as well. may as well go after all guns since they "could" be used in crime. ATF sucks. Sig rules. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 2:38:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not what he's saying. And appeals courts are triers of law, not fact. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "I think substantively it’s a very important issue, this statute is a very significant statute, and I am not going to be the one to say without holding any trial, receiving any evidence, making any findings of fact, that I’m concluding as a matter of law that this is not a silencer and you can go ahead and sell it around the world. I’m not going to do that. That would – that is a – something that requires very careful consideration of evidence,” he said. Cliff notes: I'm not putting my name on this case. Too sticky to touch. 3 judges in appeals are more likely to take this on factually. That's not what he's saying. And appeals courts are triers of law, not fact. I may have been mistaken. Is this just the request for summary judgment? If so then I stand corrected and defer to your view. Help us understand your second point on tiers of law. i don't understand that concept. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/21/2015 3:55:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
will they go after the sig brace too? who saw that and didn't immediately think "stock" if this muzzle brake "could" be used as a suppressor, then the brace "could" be used as a stock and should be illegal as well. may as well go after all guns since they "could" be used in crime. ATF sucks. Sig rules. The difference is that the brake is indeed a silencer part where the brace was actually meant to be a brace. The question is if you never make a silencer with the brake should it be regulated. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2015 8:55:20 AM EDT
[#43]
No new updates.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2015 9:07:52 AM EDT
[#44]
This is the rub:
"The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication." If that brake is intended only for use in a silencer, it meets this definition. If it serves other purposes, it does not (to me). |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2015 9:16:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah... but... that's kinda the way that the ATF works... Quote HistoryQuoted:
"...they need to do it under the correct standard, and they need to do it in a way that’s not arbitrary and capricious" Yeah... but... that's kinda the way that the ATF works... I'd really like to see their "minimal work/8 hours in a machine shop" standard destroyed that they pulled with the airsoft confiscations. You could make a machine gun from raw materials in 8 hours. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2015 9:49:36 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd really like to see their "minimal work/8 hours in a machine shop" standard destroyed that they pulled with the airsoft confiscations. You could make a machine gun from raw materials in 8 hours. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"...they need to do it under the correct standard, and they need to do it in a way that’s not arbitrary and capricious" Yeah... but... that's kinda the way that the ATF works... I'd really like to see their "minimal work/8 hours in a machine shop" standard destroyed that they pulled with the airsoft confiscations. You could make a machine gun from raw materials in 8 hours. Would it be legal to own a mold/press used by GM's Guide Lamp Division to make M3 Grease Guns if someone wanted to make semi-auto versions? Are those tools destroyed? |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/18/2015 10:42:44 AM EDT
[#47]
OST
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/26/2015 10:21:14 PM EDT
[#48]
MEMORANDUM AND ORDER pdf
...snip...
IV. CONCLUSION
The ATF’s classification of Sig Sauer’s device as a firearm silencer was not “arbitrary, capricious, . . . or otherwise not in accordance with law.” 5 U.S.C. § 706(2)(A). Accordingly, I grant ATF’s motion for summary judgment (doc. no. 18), and I deny Sig Sauer’s motion for summary judgment (doc. no. 19). The clerk shall enter judgment accordingly and close the case. SO ORDERED. /s/Paul Barbadoro
Paul Barbadoro United States District Judge |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/26/2015 10:26:34 PM EDT
[#49]
Will they appeal?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/26/2015 10:29:21 PM EDT
[#50]
Move along, peasants.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
