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Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:14:45 AM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
That didn't take long  

What do Hilton Yam and Larry Vickers know?
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As was pointed out on another board Yam is now selling M&P mods and parts, and as has been demonstrated on Outdoor TV. Vickers will pimp HK last week, Nighthawk next quarter, Daniel Defense on Thursday, and Bill Wilson when the check clears.

In regard to guns, I have seen enough and listened to the bitching of users and armorers to know the world is full of shitty guns and guns that have been improved by the user or the maker until hereto for unknown problems suddenly start appearing.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:15:25 AM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:


I doubt they have been more reliable.   People that buy a $2000 gun usualy try to cover up its deficiencies by saying it needs to break it, or they need to clean it.

I paid ~$1100 for a shit gun.   I will admit that.

The best 1911s I have seen were Springfield Mil-Specs and RIAs.
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I had not seen the 80% fail rate.


MARSOC tested 5 guns.    4 failed before reaching the requirments.   MARSOC then changed the requirements.  

Google MARSOC 1911 failures
Frames were cracking worse than Whitney Houston on a Saturday night.


Yup, the Marines have been having constant problems with them. But the ones going to civilian gunshops have been a bit more reliable. Still aint worth freaking 2000+ dollars


I doubt they have been more reliable.   People that buy a $2000 gun usualy try to cover up its deficiencies by saying it needs to break it, or they need to clean it.

I paid ~$1100 for a shit gun.   I will admit that.

The best 1911s I have seen were Springfield Mil-Specs and RIAs.


This.  I can't believe how well my RIA's shoot.  I'm on my 3rd one.  I'd carry it before my Kimber in a heartbeat.  I like the Kimber, it's just that I've had enough jams with it not to trust it.  I'd carry it before my Dan Wesson, same rationale as the Kimber.

The RIA, with CM mags, go's bang every time. No perceptable "break in" period.  Just "bang" every time.  I cannot recall a jam with an RIA, ever, using CM mags (one or two with the ones that came with it, which I think are Mec gar?).
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:19:00 AM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
I would take a Hilton 1911 over an M&P, but would take a M&P over any factory 1911 without even thinking twice. This is coming from a guy that carried 1911 for many years. I'm sold on the M&P. Glocks are a very good choice as well.
View Quote



I really like my M&P9.  I haven't had the chance to shoot one in 45, but have considered getting one.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:22:32 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:


As was pointed out on another board Yam is now selling M&P mods and parts, and as has been demonstrated on Outdoor TV. Vickers will pimp HK last week, Nighthawk next quarter, Daniel Defense on Thursday, and Bill Wilson when the check clears.

In regard to guns, I have seen enough and listened to the bitching of users and armorers to know the world is full of shitty guns and guns that have been improved by the user or the maker until hereto for unknown problems suddenly start appearing.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
That didn't take long  

What do Hilton Yam and Larry Vickers know?


As was pointed out on another board Yam is now selling M&P mods and parts, and as has been demonstrated on Outdoor TV. Vickers will pimp HK last week, Nighthawk next quarter, Daniel Defense on Thursday, and Bill Wilson when the check clears.

In regard to guns, I have seen enough and listened to the bitching of users and armorers to know the world is full of shitty guns and guns that have been improved by the user or the maker until hereto for unknown problems suddenly start appearing.


This
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:24:53 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:25:49 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:



I really like my M&P9.  I haven't had the chance to shoot one in 45, but have considered getting one.
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I would take a Hilton 1911 over an M&P, but would take a M&P over any factory 1911 without even thinking twice. This is coming from a guy that carried 1911 for many years. I'm sold on the M&P. Glocks are a very good choice as well.



I really like my M&P9.  I haven't had the chance to shoot one in 45, but have considered getting one.


Had one, liked it, sold it. Had two problems with it:

a) It was huge. Seriously. Glock 21 huge if not bigger. Impossible to CCW unless it's winter or you dress like a hobo with at least three layers on at all times.

b) The model I had, had the ambi thumb safety (like a 1911). I liked the commonality of the manual of arms when drawing and firing, but the safety was so easy to flick on and off that it may as well not have been there. When carrying it in winter the safety would get swept off by my coat, putting on a seat belt...anything really.

If S&W made a G19 sized M&P in pretty much any caliber, it would sell like hotcakes. It's trigger is IMO way better than anything Glock can offer, and I prefer it's grip angle.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:33:57 AM EDT
[#7]
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Yes, and if you continue googling, you'll find that the frames were a rush job, and that they had milled out a lightening cut in the frame, under where the rail was. The recoil spring and guide rod were bowing and entering that lightening cut, and on recoil were effectively being folded in half and bypassed, which led to the failures.

They no longer make that lightening cut, and the failures went away.
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I had not seen the 80% fail rate.


MARSOC tested 5 guns.    4 failed before reaching the requirments.   MARSOC then changed the requirements.  

Google MARSOC 1911 failures
Frames were cracking worse than Whitney Houston on a Saturday night.


Yes, and if you continue googling, you'll find that the frames were a rush job, and that they had milled out a lightening cut in the frame, under where the rail was. The recoil spring and guide rod were bowing and entering that lightening cut, and on recoil were effectively being folded in half and bypassed, which led to the failures.

They no longer make that lightening cut, and the failures went away.


You are correct on the oblong lightening cut in the dust cover and it causing the 1 gun of 10 to lock up, the other broken guns were slide and frame cracks.

The testing was redone with the new guns, Colt was allowed to make another adjustment midstride in the test and all the previous failures were thrown out and than they waived the mean round between failure requirement (less than 1 per 300 rounds) .  Than when adopted they realized over a quarter of the 50K mags we had were an older style and caused failures to feed and had to be replaced also.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:34:01 AM EDT
[#8]
Yam loves 1911s as a personal gun. He hates them as a department issued gun.

You guys need to learn to read.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:37:59 AM EDT
[#9]

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Quoted:
Had one, liked it, sold it. Had two problems with it:



a) It was huge. Seriously. Glock 21 huge if not bigger. Impossible to CCW unless it's winter or you dress like a hobo with at least three layers on at all times.



b) The model I had, had the ambi thumb safety (like a 1911). I liked the commonality of the manual of arms when drawing and firing, but the safety was so easy to flick on and off that it may as well not have been there. When carrying it in winter the safety would get swept off by my coat, putting on a seat belt...anything really.



If S&W made a G19 sized M&P in pretty much any caliber, it would sell like hotcakes. It's trigger is IMO way better than anything Glock can offer, and I prefer it's grip angle.
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Quoted:


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I would take a Hilton 1911 over an M&P, but would take a M&P over any factory 1911 without even thinking twice. This is coming from a guy that carried 1911 for many years. I'm sold on the M&P. Glocks are a very good choice as well.






I really like my M&P9.  I haven't had the chance to shoot one in 45, but have considered getting one.




Had one, liked it, sold it. Had two problems with it:



a) It was huge. Seriously. Glock 21 huge if not bigger. Impossible to CCW unless it's winter or you dress like a hobo with at least three layers on at all times.



b) The model I had, had the ambi thumb safety (like a 1911). I liked the commonality of the manual of arms when drawing and firing, but the safety was so easy to flick on and off that it may as well not have been there. When carrying it in winter the safety would get swept off by my coat, putting on a seat belt...anything really.



If S&W made a G19 sized M&P in pretty much any caliber, it would sell like hotcakes. It's trigger is IMO way better than anything Glock can offer, and I prefer it's grip angle.
M&P45 isn't that big. It is basically the same dimensions as the G21, and only .4 inches longer than the M&P9 (all other dimensions are the same). I carry the M&P9 all year round, I would carry the 45 but I can't find any defensive ammo for it.

 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:39:00 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
You are correct on the oblong lightening cut in the dust cover and it causing the 1 gun of 10 to lock up, the other broken guns were slide and frame cracks.

The testing was redone with the new guns, Colt was allowed to make another adjustment midstride in the test and all the previous failures were thrown out and than they waived the mean round between failure requirement (less than 1 per 300 rounds) .  Than when adopted they realized over a quarter of the 50K mags we had were an older style and caused failures to feed and had to be replaced also.
View Quote


The mag thing doesn't surprise me; the full tapered lips work well with ball but there's better designs out there, that work with a larger variety of round types and weights. The original mags were designed around the original 1911, without a throated barrel or action job, which I'm pretty sure the Colts have now as issued, integrated into the build process....
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:41:21 AM EDT
[#11]
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M&P45 isn't that big. It is basically the same dimensions as the G21, and only .4 inches longer than the M&P9 (all other dimensions are the same). I carry the M&P9 all year round, I would carry the 45 but I can't find any defensive ammo for it.  
View Quote


The G20/21 is too big for a CCW piece, is my point...it's bigger than a 1911, and that's really the upper limit IMO. I would consider a G17 or M&P 9 to be too large for me to comfortably CCW as well. But, that's just me, YMMV.

Can't find defensive ammo for it? Do they not sell hollowpoints in Virginia?
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:50:27 AM EDT
[#12]

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The G20/21 is too big for a CCW piece, is my point...it's bigger than a 1911, and that's really the upper limit IMO. I would consider a G17 or M&P 9 to be too large for me to comfortably CCW as well. But, that's just me, YMMV.



Can't find defensive ammo for it? Do they not sell hollowpoints in Virginia?
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Quoted:

M&P45 isn't that big. It is basically the same dimensions as the G21, and only .4 inches longer than the M&P9 (all other dimensions are the same). I carry the M&P9 all year round, I would carry the 45 but I can't find any defensive ammo for it.  




The G20/21 is too big for a CCW piece, is my point...it's bigger than a 1911, and that's really the upper limit IMO. I would consider a G17 or M&P 9 to be too large for me to comfortably CCW as well. But, that's just me, YMMV.



Can't find defensive ammo for it? Do they not sell hollowpoints in Virginia?
I guess they do sell them, but damn if I can find any Gold Dots, HSTs or Rangers.

 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:51:13 AM EDT
[#13]
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Didn't the Marines just get Colt 1911's?  
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This is a pretty common thing.  

Most agencies gave up Model Ts also.  
Didn't the Marines just get Colt 1911's?  

Only MARSOC.  USMC wide still uses M9.  It is also worthy to note that MARSOC also field glocks.  The 1911 is simply one tool in the tool box, and based on anecdotal evidence from speaking to a few of the CSOs 1911 thing was not the rank and files choice.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:55:57 AM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:
I saw 1911s crap out frequently back when I was going to classes all the time. But people are emotional about guns and gear and there are always excuses "those were cheap guns" "those were modified guns" "those were poorly maintained guns"
View Quote


I love 1911's, but you are right. There are always 1911 people giving every excuse in the book if their gun fails. Like it or not, when it comes down to it a 1911 will rarely prove to be as reliable as a Glock or M&P. That's just a fact. Yes, some 1911's have proven to be reliable as hell, but many require tuning to get to that point. If you understand what a 1911 is and needs, it is a fantastic gun, but it is not a simple point and shoot type gun like a Glock.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:56:17 AM EDT
[#15]
Kimber 1911's =
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 2:59:09 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm not a department or a squad or agency so I don't care.
I've owned many number of 1911s of reputable make, and some not so much. I've had some that never failed and some that were straight turds from day one. Right now I'm out of 1911 for some reason, and it's just the only style of pistol that leaves a big empty hole in my safe, where I just realize all the time that I need another 1911. I love Glocks and other types of pistols and revolvers- But damn there's nothing like the feel of a sweet shooting 1911. I'm always going to love one as a personal weapon. I don't get butt hurt about a failure prone gun though, I just trade it off or sell it.





Never been a Kimber man though, and never owned one. Never will.
 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:00:52 AM EDT
[#17]
Iirc he wrote a similar article 2 years ago about not filling ourselves visavis serviceability and reliability
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:23:52 AM EDT
[#18]
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Yam loves 1911s as a personal gun. He hates them as a department issued gun.

You guys need to learn to read.
View Quote


You're obviously new here.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:24:11 AM EDT
[#19]
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Iirc he wrote a similar article 2 years ago about not filling ourselves visavis serviceability and reliability
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Maybe two years worth of serviceability and reliability problems changed his mind.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:30:50 AM EDT
[#20]

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Ok



But I want capacity too



Now what ?
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Quoted:

Do you want a gun that works or a gun that is pretty and has the right "feel" for you?



I like guns that work.



You may not know this but you can have both.  With a little effort you don't have to be stuck with ugly ill fitting guns.

 






Ok



But I want capacity too



Now what ?

Now live in the modern age?



 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:33:45 AM EDT
[#21]
I yak with him and people in his circle on the face books occasionally, so watching the fallout on the boards has been fucking hilarious to me.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:36:30 AM EDT
[#22]

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As was pointed out on another board Yam is now selling M&P mods and parts, and as has been demonstrated on Outdoor TV. Vickers will pimp HK last week, Nighthawk next quarter, Daniel Defense on Thursday, and Bill Wilson when the check clears.



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Quoted:



Quoted:

That didn't take long  



What do Hilton Yam and Larry Vickers know?





As was pointed out on another board Yam is now selling M&P mods and parts, and as has been demonstrated on Outdoor TV. Vickers will pimp HK last week, Nighthawk next quarter, Daniel Defense on Thursday, and Bill Wilson when the check clears.









 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:38:42 AM EDT
[#23]
Ive owned several 1911's and I've never had one problem and I put quit a few rounds through them.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:39:34 AM EDT
[#24]
When you take the 1911 and throw out JMB's original design, then try to make it what it is not (a bullseye gun), the reliability will of course suffer.


Are there better alternatives today? Probably.


And I am a die hard 1911 guy. Great design, and still is, but it is what it is, those that try to "tweak" the original to get more from it, makes it suffer. The same could be said and done with any other pistol out there.

My 1911s just keep running.  Any problem I have ever had, was the result of deviations from the original design.




 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:39:37 AM EDT
[#25]

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Ive owned several 1911's and I've never had one problem and I put quit a few rounds through them.
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You should totally tell Hilton that.



 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:42:08 AM EDT
[#26]

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Quoted:


When you take the 1911 and throw out JMB's original design, then try to make it what it is not (a bullseye gun), the reliability will of course suffer.

Are there better alternatives today? Probably.

And I am a die hard 1911 guy. Great design, and still is, but it is what it is, those that try to "tweak" the original to get more from it, makes it suffer. The same could be said and done with any other pistol out there.

View Quote
Or, they get super bad ass, absurdly reliable pistols, that go above any beyond what people would expect them to be capable of.



Shoot a couple open IPSC guns, and perspectives change...



 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:44:01 AM EDT
[#27]
... idiot, Somalian
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:47:02 AM EDT
[#28]



Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
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Or, they get super bad ass, absurdly reliable pistols, that go above any beyond what people would expect them to be capable of.
Shoot a couple open IPSC guns, and perspectives change...



 
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Quoted:



When you take the 1911 and throw out JMB's original design, then try to make it what it is not (a bullseye gun), the reliability will of course suffer.



Are there better alternatives today? Probably.



And I am a die hard 1911 guy. Great design, and still is, but it is what it is, those that try to "tweak" the original to get more from it, makes it suffer. The same could be said and done with any other pistol out there.



Or, they get super bad ass, absurdly reliable pistols, that go above any beyond what people would expect them to be capable of.
Shoot a couple open IPSC guns, and perspectives change...



 
Sure, but those are very expensive, lots of money to get there--doubt the military will go there.  And those have HUGE maintenance costs. And those are so far from the 1911 design, hard to call them 1911s any more



The simple 1911 is a fine gun, any reliability problems I have seem (anecdotal all the way) can be traced to changes in the original design because everybody (even some dude in a Pakistani cave) is making a 1911.



People refer to the 1911 as if it was singly manufactured product, not a pistol design.


My favorite is when someone says, "I had a 1911, it sucks. Never could get it to feed worth a crap."


"Really? Who made it?"


"It was a 3" 9mm model."


That is not a 1911, it is an experiment with the design.
 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:48:50 AM EDT
[#29]
I dont like them either.  They look cool, but I dont like them other than that.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:49:41 AM EDT
[#30]
If I remember correctly, Yam announced his decision to take a hiatus from 1911 smithing so that he could focus on other areas. This may have helped this revelation.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 3:57:38 AM EDT
[#31]
I've prettymuch paralleled his transition and agree with him.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:00:21 AM EDT
[#32]
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:00:38 AM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:02:10 AM EDT
[#34]

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Sure, but those are very expensive, lots of money to get there--doubt the military will go there.  And those have HUGE maintenance costs. And those are so far from the 1911 design, hard to call them 1911s any more

The simple 1911 is a fine gun, any reliability problems I have seem (anecdotal all the way) can be traced to changes in the original design because everybody (even some dude in a Pakistani cave) is making a 1911.

People refer to the 1911 as if it was singly manufactured product, not a pistol design.

My favorite is when someone says, "I had a 1911, it sucks. Never could get it to feed worth a crap."

"Really? Who made it?"

"It was a 3" 9mm model."

That is not a 1911, it is an experiment with the design.

 
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snip

 
Sure, but those are very expensive, lots of money to get there--doubt the military will go there.  And those have HUGE maintenance costs. And those are so far from the 1911 design, hard to call them 1911s any more

The simple 1911 is a fine gun, any reliability problems I have seem (anecdotal all the way) can be traced to changes in the original design because everybody (even some dude in a Pakistani cave) is making a 1911.

People refer to the 1911 as if it was singly manufactured product, not a pistol design.

My favorite is when someone says, "I had a 1911, it sucks. Never could get it to feed worth a crap."

"Really? Who made it?"

"It was a 3" 9mm model."

That is not a 1911, it is an experiment with the design.

 
So? Pay to play.



Never said simple 1911's were NOT fine (though many brands are due to poor design and QC).



Funny though, Colt 3" defenders have always ran pretty good...



 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:04:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:05:52 AM EDT
[#36]
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This is a pretty common thing.  

Most agencies gave up Model Ts also.  
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Agreed.  Let the relic have a place of honor in a museum and quit trying to fucking re-invent the goddamned wheel. The gun was useful many fucking decades ago.
Let it die a dignified death.  
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:07:31 AM EDT
[#37]

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So? Pay to play.



Never said simple 1911's were NOT fine (though many brands are due to poor design and QC).



Funny though, Colt 3" defenders have always ran pretty good...

 
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I don't know how an IPSC pistol would hold up under dirt, grime, poor maintenance and such.

I have a 3" RI that runs anything any time.

But it sure did not start out that way.



 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:07:34 AM EDT
[#38]
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:12:07 AM EDT
[#39]
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This is a pretty common thing.  

Most agencies gave up Model Ts also.  
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alot of departments around here are giving up their glocks and going back to the 1911.
primarily springfields.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:14:04 AM EDT
[#40]
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Based on my experience, the problem is KIMBER, not the 1911 as a design.
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Say it ain't true!

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=6631&utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=my-personal-path-away-from-the-1911


"The longer I was involved in this effort, the more failures I saw in the concept of the 1911 in a role as service pistol over more modern designs.  One agency with whom I had a close relationship required some assistance getting their fleet of Kimber 1911srunning correctly.  Fast forward 4 years and a lot of visits and phone calls to help troubleshoot broken down guns, and I was eventually able to convince this agency to discontinue the use of their team 1911s and have the team use the M&P issued to the rest of the agency.  The phone has been very quiet since they went to the M&P. "






Did a search but didn't find anything...



Based on my experience, the problem is KIMBER, not the 1911 as a design.

and this here
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:14:47 AM EDT
[#41]
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Do you want a gun that works or a gun that is pretty and has the right "feel" for you?

I like guns that work.

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ARFCOM, get both
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:16:18 AM EDT
[#42]
I've never had a single failure in any of my 1911's


Granted I don't do 800 round intense training sessions with them either.


I lug them to the range.   Sometimes I'll carry them if I'm feeling saucy.   Sometimes they sit next to me on a nice summer evening out on the deck.

I typically only shoot or carry quality ball ammo.   I'm comfortable with shooting assholes with ball in 45.   I'd carry JHP but I don't have the budget to test the feeding to a round count im comfortable with in 45 when I have proven JHP pill swallowers in 9mm


97% of the time I'm carrying a G17 or M&P FS.   It's not because of the reliability.  It's capacity, weight, and training.  But would trust the 1911's fully if I had to carry them.  However I have no doubt that if I did a weekend course with my 1911's,  shit would eventually break or foul up.  The observations by others provide enough of a statistical sample to prove it to me.   For most use, the 1911 will eat it up though.  The 1911's trump card is it's trigger, which can be trained around for very similar results with a few of the more common combat handguns on the market.  Once you get past the trigger, you have slimness and looks.  Advantages fade quickly after that.


I'm not completely ready to jump off a platform based on one article.  Even from Yam or any other top smith, trainer, etc.   however Yam didn't go M&P overnight.  He's been knee deep in them for a long time.   So it's not some sudden revelation that DD/Wilson/sig/etc is suddenly the best and forget everything about the past like it is with other folks.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:17:19 AM EDT
[#43]
Should I be embarrassed that I have no idea who Hilton Yam is?
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:18:15 AM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I love 1911's, but you are right. There are always 1911 people giving every excuse in the book if their gun fails. Like it or not, when it comes down to it a 1911 will rarely prove to be as reliable as a Glock or M&P. That's just a fact. Yes, some 1911's have proven to be reliable as hell, but many require tuning to get to that point. If you understand what a 1911 is and needs, it is a fantastic gun, but it is not a simple point and shoot type gun like a Glock.
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Quoted:
I saw 1911s crap out frequently back when I was going to classes all the time. But people are emotional about guns and gear and there are always excuses "those were cheap guns" "those were modified guns" "those were poorly maintained guns"


I love 1911's, but you are right. There are always 1911 people giving every excuse in the book if their gun fails. Like it or not, when it comes down to it a 1911 will rarely prove to be as reliable as a Glock or M&P. That's just a fact. Yes, some 1911's have proven to be reliable as hell, but many require tuning to get to that point. If you understand what a 1911 is and needs, it is a fantastic gun, but it is not a simple point and shoot type gun like a Glock.

14'r
I'v seen more glocks fail in qualifications and training then 1911's.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:19:01 AM EDT
[#45]
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Should I be embarrassed that I have no idea who Hilton Yam is?
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Yes
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:23:09 AM EDT
[#46]


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I've seen my fair share of 1911's shit the bed. I certainly won't argue that they're a good option for everybody.





A chunk of the failures I've seen on the range, though, have been operator error. Show up to a 3,000 round, 5 day handgun course with a 1911 that's bone dry. Experience failures in the first 200 rounds fired. Rageface.





Show up at an 800 round 2 day course with a 3 grand Nighthawk (way the fuck overpriced if you ask me) that the guy is shooting the cheapest steel-cased Russian .45 ACP he can find through. Experiences a squib, doesn't properly clear it, bulged barrel. Rageface.





Etc.





There are so few people out there who understand what makes a 1911 work properly, and so few potential customers who can inspect a 1911 intelligently and maybe avoid some of the guns that are badly assembled or just badly made that most would be better off not buying a 1911. If somebody doesn't know how to tension an extractor or spot an improperly shaped extractor hook then odds are the 1911 isn't for them. A bunch of people building 1911's are doing so with no real solid understanding of why, exactly, they're making things as they are. Why, for instance, would one use a firing pin stop that is curved at the bottom rather than one that is square? There are valid reasons for each approach depending on the application...but how many people putting out 1911's can intelligently explain the difference between the two choices?





With flat-wire springs coming on strong for 1911's the maintenance issue (aside from lubrication which will always be an issue on an all steel gun) is decreasing somewhat. Magazines are pretty much as good as they're going to get in the new series of Wilson mags, although the 47D's still work beautifully if you can live with 7 rounds.





Then there's the expense. An all metal gun made from quality steel is going to be expensive. Having competent people who really know the gun and can build and properly inspect them is expensive. Having the engineering knowledge on staff that understands the proper way to build the guns is going to be expensive...and the kicker is that the customer walking in the door of a gunshop won't be able to really tell the difference between a gun built by a firm that has all that going for it and a gun built by a firm that doesn't based on looks and handling the pistol. The proof won't come until the shooting, and most people don't shoot the guns anywhere near as much as people say on the internet.





These days if I was buying a 1911 I'd buy one from Colt, Wilson Combat, or Springfield Armory's custom shop.
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Quoted:


I saw 1911s crap out frequently back when I was going to classes all the time. But people are emotional about guns and gear and there are always excuses "those were cheap guns" "those were modified guns" "those were poorly maintained guns"






I've seen my fair share of 1911's shit the bed. I certainly won't argue that they're a good option for everybody.





A chunk of the failures I've seen on the range, though, have been operator error. Show up to a 3,000 round, 5 day handgun course with a 1911 that's bone dry. Experience failures in the first 200 rounds fired. Rageface.





Show up at an 800 round 2 day course with a 3 grand Nighthawk (way the fuck overpriced if you ask me) that the guy is shooting the cheapest steel-cased Russian .45 ACP he can find through. Experiences a squib, doesn't properly clear it, bulged barrel. Rageface.





Etc.





There are so few people out there who understand what makes a 1911 work properly, and so few potential customers who can inspect a 1911 intelligently and maybe avoid some of the guns that are badly assembled or just badly made that most would be better off not buying a 1911. If somebody doesn't know how to tension an extractor or spot an improperly shaped extractor hook then odds are the 1911 isn't for them. A bunch of people building 1911's are doing so with no real solid understanding of why, exactly, they're making things as they are. Why, for instance, would one use a firing pin stop that is curved at the bottom rather than one that is square? There are valid reasons for each approach depending on the application...but how many people putting out 1911's can intelligently explain the difference between the two choices?





With flat-wire springs coming on strong for 1911's the maintenance issue (aside from lubrication which will always be an issue on an all steel gun) is decreasing somewhat. Magazines are pretty much as good as they're going to get in the new series of Wilson mags, although the 47D's still work beautifully if you can live with 7 rounds.





Then there's the expense. An all metal gun made from quality steel is going to be expensive. Having competent people who really know the gun and can build and properly inspect them is expensive. Having the engineering knowledge on staff that understands the proper way to build the guns is going to be expensive...and the kicker is that the customer walking in the door of a gunshop won't be able to really tell the difference between a gun built by a firm that has all that going for it and a gun built by a firm that doesn't based on looks and handling the pistol. The proof won't come until the shooting, and most people don't shoot the guns anywhere near as much as people say on the internet.





These days if I was buying a 1911 I'd buy one from Colt, Wilson Combat, or Springfield Armory's custom shop.
OK, you do know they make 47D's with 8 rounds don't you?











http://www.midwayusa.com/product/644241/wilson-combat-magazine-with-base-pad-1911-government-commander-45-acp-8-round-stainless-steel?cm_vc=subv1644241





 
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:23:32 AM EDT
[#47]
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Yes
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Should I be embarrassed that I have no idea who Hilton Yam is?



Yes




Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:24:46 AM EDT
[#48]
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The best performing 1911's I've used and owned have been super loose.  I don't understand the insane obsession with SUPER TIGHT TOLERANCES.
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I had not seen the 80% fail rate.


MARSOC tested 5 guns.    4 failed before reaching the requirments.   MARSOC then changed the requirements.  

Google MARSOC 1911 failures
Frames were cracking worse than Whitney Houston on a Saturday night.


Yup, the Marines have been having constant problems with them. But the ones going to civilian gunshops have been a bit more reliable. Still aint worth freaking 2000+ dollars


I doubt they have been more reliable.   People that buy a $2000 gun usualy try to cover up its deficiencies by saying it needs to break it, or they need to clean it.

I paid ~$1100 for a shit gun.   I will admit that.

The best 1911s I have seen were Springfield Mil-Specs and RIAs.


The best performing 1911's I've used and owned have been super loose.  I don't understand the insane obsession with SUPER TIGHT TOLERANCES.


EXACTLY
The WW I and WW II guns were made by three or four different companies and were designed to be able to swap parts.
There were some problems with the parts swapping early on.
These were not tight fit guns.
They ran and continue to do so today.
I think the worst thing ever done to the 1911 was to tighten the tolerances up.
For a race gun or competition gun, yes.
Those guns will get the attention that a it will require.
For a combat gun, not as necessary.
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:29:34 AM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 3/7/2014 4:33:15 AM EDT
[#50]
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..............

The 8 round mags use the same body as the 7 rounders. They get 8 rounds in them with a weaker spring, which takes a set pretty easily and requires frequent replacement. The 7 round spring is more robust.
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Can you use an 8 round mag in a gun rated for 7 rounds?
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