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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:38:14 PM EDT
[#1]
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LOL, no. They can't 'pull' the generators. It really doesn't work that way. You know how I know you have no clue how this works? |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:38:14 PM EDT
[#2]
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Where is Moonbeam? |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:38:25 PM EDT
[#3]
if they can get it low enough it may be better to intentionally breach the espillway when the water level is lower than it.... if its a solid not rubble core...
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:39:04 PM EDT
[#4]
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They were actively trying to clear the debris yesterday. Not sure how successful their efforts were. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:39:30 PM EDT
[#5]
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Bet you if they pulled the generators they could increase that number. Previous pics of an overspeeded turbine generator imply that it can't be done for months. They measure yards across at the impeller alone. No doubt someone will come along with a precise measurement but the real issue is did they leave an working crane with the capacity in the power house to do that? And if you do - aren't you opening a big hole into the tailstock pool that has become elevated? If they have gates to shut it off, then what do you have in the way of a new cover for the open hole? I never see those hanging from the ceiling in all the cool photos of hydroelectric dam turbine plants. It's all about the main spill way gates - which are good and big enough to handle it if managed properly. We will see on Wed/Thurs. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:40:06 PM EDT
[#6]
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so how are they going to clear out the trash that has the bottom drain plugged up? With heavy equipment, but not until the flow through the primary spillway is drastically reduced. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:40:28 PM EDT
[#7]
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Spillway looks much better than I expected it would. It doesn't appear that there has been progression of the erosion up the spillway. It does even with increase in flow |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:41:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Holy shit, mother nature really doesn't give a fuck. Pretty cool, actually.
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:41:32 PM EDT
[#9]
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I was wondering that too. They have vague descriptions of the other readings but not Riv Rel, and I would think it's important. River release probably |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:41:56 PM EDT
[#10]
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Lost another chunk of the spillway. It used to be at an angle at the bottom, now it's more or less square. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:42:21 PM EDT
[#11]
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http://i.imgur.com/aaREFMVh.jpg Wow. That erosion at the left side certainly causes ME to wonder if the base of that weir is toed into actual bedrock or not at that location. Also, some basic geology... mountains are rock that has heaved and been pushed up by forces. Its not rock in the shape of a mountain in perfect, uniform, homogeneous form. I can see what they're worried about there. If this is recent where are all those white bags of rock that the helicopters were dropping? |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:42:48 PM EDT
[#12]
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With heavy equipment, but not until the flow through the primary spillway is drastically reduced. Yeah, it's a bit hard to manage a dredge when dealing with a raging torrent of water! |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:43:07 PM EDT
[#13]
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Previous pics of an overspeeded turbine generator imply that it can't be done for months. They measure yards across at the impeller alone. No doubt someone will come along with a precise measurement but the real issue is did they leave an working crane with the capacity in the power house to do that? And if you do - aren't you opening a big hole into the tailstock pool that has become elevated? If they have gates to shut it off, then what do you have in the way of a new cover for the open hole? I never see those hanging from the ceiling in all the cool photos of hydroelectric dam turbine plants. It's all about the main spill way gates - which are good and big enough to handle it if managed properly. We will see on Wed/Thurs. They are designed to be serviceable and have the ability to pull them. If they don't have that ability, well then this dam was doomed from the start as it has no recourse for repairs. Google turbine replacement. It's a wearing component. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:44:03 PM EDT
[#14]
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No other choice. As you state they are not going to be able to get the storage capacity in time. When the rains come, they are either going to have to increase to well over 100K, or risk the emergency spillway again in which case the combined flow will still be over 100K. Reducing flows to protect the down stream feather river is no longer an option for this week and next week. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Which still means that it would take 150 hours, or 6.25 days, to lower the water level to the target of 850'. Also, like I stated on the last page, today's forecast calls for mid- to upper 60's temperatures which will lead to an increased inflow which will slow down the reduction of water storage. Yesterday and the day before seemed like relatively nice, dry days and the inflows were around 55k/cfs - I don't think it's unreasonable to expect similar numbers throughout the day today. I don't think that they will be able to continue to 100k/cfs when the rain starts coming in; I don't think the Feather River will be able to handle the outflow and the run-off at the same time. No other choice. As you state they are not going to be able to get the storage capacity in time. When the rains come, they are either going to have to increase to well over 100K, or risk the emergency spillway again in which case the combined flow will still be over 100K. Reducing flows to protect the down stream feather river is no longer an option for this week and next week. I understand. As someone said earlier, they seem to like to paint themselves into corners. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:45:33 PM EDT
[#15]
yep and that why these evacuess will be staying gone, likely for months...
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:47:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Another comparison of last night (water running over the e-spill)
This morning 
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:48:28 PM EDT
[#17]
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River release probably Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was wondering that too. They have vague descriptions of the other readings but not Riv Rel, and I would think it's important. River release probably yes, but its 17kcfs higher than the only functioning spillway. Where is that 17kcfs coming from? Or is this downstream somewhere below another water source? |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:48:29 PM EDT
[#18]
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It does even with increase in flow Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Spillway looks much better than I expected it would. It doesn't appear that there has been progression of the erosion up the spillway. It does even with increase in flow The erosion has gotten wider, it looks like it's now cutting more to the west. Hard to tell if the erosion is going further north up the spillway. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:49:20 PM EDT
[#19]
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They are designed to be serviceable and have the ability to pull them. If they don't have that ability, well then this dam was doomed from the start as it has no recourse for repairs. Google turbine replacement. It's a wearing component. Agreed - but pulled and left out completely? That's why I asked about the turbine delete plates to block off the open hole left in the power house. Replacement isn't the issue, really. It also goes to the outlets being "clogged," which means they can't run anything thru the turbine for some reason because the exhaust flow has no where to go, apparently. I suspect we will all get to know about hydroelectric plants a lot more. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:50:14 PM EDT
[#20]
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if they can get it low enough it may be better to intentionally breach the espillway when the water level is lower than it.... if its a solid not rubble core... Why do you think that would help? |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:51:22 PM EDT
[#21]
This is not going to be made right anytime soon, if at all.
Feel sorry for property owners in the lower areas, their property is now worthless. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:51:38 PM EDT
[#22]
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Hiding while trying to figure out how to blame a state owned dam on the feds and Trump. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Where is Moonbeam? Rubbing his hands together pleased to punish the conservative voters of northern California |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:54:29 PM EDT
[#23]
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If this is recent where are all those white bags of rock that the helicopters were dropping? They filled them and staged them, but then stopped when they got the e-spillway under control. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:55:12 PM EDT
[#24]
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yes, but its 17kcfs higher than the only functioning spillway. Where is that 17kcfs coming from? Or is this downstream somewhere below another water source? Depending upon what data you're looking at, it could be water entering the watershed from another dam, or water being let out to another one. Remember this is standard monitoring data... |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:55:34 PM EDT
[#25]
It seems unlikely that the damaged spillway can survive through the spring.
Every drop off runoff in that watershed is going down that spillway sooner or later. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:56:16 PM EDT
[#26]
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Nah...wasn't joking..i'm no expert in Pumps and sizes....sorry to make you 
You the expert ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Please tell me you are joking.
The spillway is running at ~100,000 cfs. The biggest pumps they could fly in there are ~16000gpm which is ~35.6 cfs That's a whopping increase of 0.036%, similar to spitting in the ocean. Nah...wasn't joking..i'm no expert in Pumps and sizes....sorry to make you
You the expert ? You don't need a pump to pump the water. Just some big ass pipes to build a siphon and a pump to prime it. You could run a few six foot concrete sewer pipes up and over the parking lot and around the edge of the weir and down the slope past the damaged area. Given enough time, you could run the pipes all the way down to the river and around the transmission towers. OK, maybe thats a bit optimistic but here's a calculator I found with gravity flow rates for concrete pipes. With the right size pipe and the right lengths you can get some amazing flow rates. I just don't know what numbers are realistic. http://www.calctool.org/CALC/eng/civil/hazen-williams_g |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:56:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are designed to be serviceable and have the ability to pull them. If they don't have that ability, well then this dam was doomed from the start as it has no recourse for repairs. Google turbine replacement. It's a wearing component. Of course they are. But the facilities are equipped for planned, sequential repairs. They fix one turbine. Then the next. I watched videos of the construction and that area is blasted/carved into solid bedrock. They do not have the room in there to remove all the turbines at once in my opinion. Not to mention they're not doing shit with the main spillway flowing at 100k + CFS, and a pile of debris at the bottom of the spill backing water up and over the power station outlets. Resources, conditions, equipment, personnel. I don't see any of it being feasible in terms of taking the turbines out of play for flow there. They've got bigger more pressing projects right now. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:56:40 PM EDT
[#28]
When PBS does the Oroville Dam Disaster 3 night documentary and has that narrator with the uber serious voice narrating...will OP be referred to as AR15.COM member Mr Poopie Pants and his videos make him a butt load of "DAM" cash?
Interview goes like this... Well I was reloadin when I heard the TV say something bout the damn dam...so I loads up my quad copter with the go pro zoom lenz, looked at some TOW PO maps and hiked my ass on over there...then all of a sudden the gates opened up and the sirens started screaming and I says...ohhhh the noes...I gotta get my ass outta here... |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:57:20 PM EDT
[#29]
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The news guy on KRCR just said they would like to get the lake level 50 ft. below the top of the e-spillway to reduce the pressure on it. That would be nice, but not feasible anytime soon. At current flow rates it would take over 7 days to get it down that far. The accuweather forecast for the watershed, is 1.97 inches Wednesday Night, and 0.87 inches on Thursday, 0.11 Thursday night. 0.63 Friday, 0.47 Friday Night. 4 inches in 48 hours. That's 682,000 acre feet in rainfall alone, not factoring in normal runoff and snow melt, enough to raise the reservoir by 44 ft. If the weather forecast holds, at most they'll be able to lower the levels 30-40ft before that new wall of water hits, and the extended forecast for next week has rain and showers in the forecast also. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:57:57 PM EDT
[#30]
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Previous pics of an overspeeded turbine generator imply that it can't be done for months. They measure yards across at the impeller alone. No doubt someone will come along with a precise measurement but the real issue is did they leave an working crane with the capacity in the power house to do that? And if you do - aren't you opening a big hole into the tailstock pool that has become elevated? If they have gates to shut it off, then what do you have in the way of a new cover for the open hole? I never see those hanging from the ceiling in all the cool photos of hydroelectric dam turbine plants. It's all about the main spill way gates - which are good and big enough to handle it if managed properly. We will see on Wed/Thurs. Typically hydropower houses have permanent gantry cranes that can unstack the generator and turbine assembly and both upstream and downstream dewatering gates for maintenance. I would be surprised if this was not the case. ETA, already addressed. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:58:19 PM EDT
[#31]
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if they can get it low enough it may be better to intentionally breach the espillway when the water level is lower than it.... if its a solid not rubble core... Nope,at this stage of the game they cannot allow any breach of the the water holding line anywhere. If they put a hole in it it only peel like a banana. Everything MUST HOLD! as long as possible and then it will fail. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 12:59:19 PM EDT
[#32]
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3 years ago we got flooded out. (I don't live in a flood zone). It had been raining for days, the river (1/4 mile away) was RAGING. normally 6000cfs at high flow, was well over 50,000cfs. I started packing up. Moved the cars to high ground, got hte RV aired up (air brakes) and moved to high ground so I could load it, moved all the tools up in the garage (garage sits lower than the house). Had a friend come over to help pack stuff into his truck too. he pulls up and says "hey, there's water coming over your road" what? 20 minutes later there was 2' of water coming over the road and we all drove out. I was the ONLY person on my block who packed, saved their cars, didn't get everything wiped out that was low, and didn't lose any cars and didn't have to be evacuated, hell some people didn't even get their pets (cops had to come get them) This is a rather rural little neighborhood, not your usual suburbia and yet still no action. People plan for the best instead of the other way around. No cop cars came down the street, the emergency sirens (that is less than 100' away) NEVER went off. (they claimed conveniently afterwards that they were tornado sirens, bullshit). You are on your own when the shit hits the fan and it's way better to be early and wrong than late and wrong. and OP deserves the arfcom medal of valor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Watching the news last night with some of the evacuee interviews had me shaking my head. Alarms came on, evac notice sent out and all they grabbed was family and pets. These people have known for a few days that there are issues with the spillways. Why the hell would they not have their important stuff packed up and in the car, or a least packed and ready to grab, in case of an evac notice? Fucking dumbasses. 3 years ago we got flooded out. (I don't live in a flood zone). It had been raining for days, the river (1/4 mile away) was RAGING. normally 6000cfs at high flow, was well over 50,000cfs. I started packing up. Moved the cars to high ground, got hte RV aired up (air brakes) and moved to high ground so I could load it, moved all the tools up in the garage (garage sits lower than the house). Had a friend come over to help pack stuff into his truck too. he pulls up and says "hey, there's water coming over your road" what? 20 minutes later there was 2' of water coming over the road and we all drove out. I was the ONLY person on my block who packed, saved their cars, didn't get everything wiped out that was low, and didn't lose any cars and didn't have to be evacuated, hell some people didn't even get their pets (cops had to come get them) This is a rather rural little neighborhood, not your usual suburbia and yet still no action. People plan for the best instead of the other way around. No cop cars came down the street, the emergency sirens (that is less than 100' away) NEVER went off. (they claimed conveniently afterwards that they were tornado sirens, bullshit). You are on your own when the shit hits the fan and it's way better to be early and wrong than late and wrong. and OP deserves the arfcom medal of valor. This. Years ago my county got nailed by a large brush fire. Even though we couldn't see a really clear path to where the fire would migrate into our neighborhood, we were right on the edge of the mandatory evacuation zone. We started preparations, kinda gathering up some clothes, making sure we knew where important documents were, getting duffle bags and pet carriers out and staged. I went and gassed up both cars, jump started my extra truck and gassed it up too. (FWIW, all were at 1/2 tank+ anyway because that is how I roll). When I went to get gas there wasn't too many people out, little busier then usual but nothing chaotic. Then the news started delivering contradictory information. One network had extended the evac zone to include us, another didn't have us in it. We started packing, putting bags by the door and had both cars up next to the house. Plan was to load the spare truck with tools and other expensive stuff from the garage and leave it in the middle of a shopping center parking lot down the street (big wide open asphalt lot), load the other cars and GTFO. Lucky for us the fire never made it across the main road a mile away but it was pretty crazy for a while. ETA: During hurricane Sandy, I was talking to a buddy of mine who lived on Long Island via facebook. He had sent me pics of the water overtopping the canal in his backyard. During the conversation he mentioned the water was coming around the front of his house. I mentioned "hey dude, you might want to move your new car". I got "Oh shit, be back in a few". He parked his car in a parking structure a few blocks away and came back. Next morning there was a boat in his front yard right where his car had been. Other then the basement, his house didn't get flooded but his car would have been toast. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:00:00 PM EDT
[#33]
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Agreed - but pulled and left out completely? That's why I asked about the turbine delete plates to block off the open hole left in the power house. Replacement isn't the issue, really. It also goes to the outlets being "clogged," which means they can't run anything thru the turbine for some reason because the exhaust flow has no where to go, apparently. I suspect we will all get to know about hydroelectric plants a lot more. Another thing I don't understand about the hydroplant "The turbine exhaust has no where to go" ??? There is a 600+' head of water above the channel. The heck it won't come out. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:00:10 PM EDT
[#34]
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They can't empty the lake from the bottom they can only go to the bottom of the spillway gates If they emptied enough water to the point where no more comes out of the main spillway, what is that water level? 850 feet? 800 feet? It sounds like the water emptying via the power generation portion of the main dam is not available now and I have not heard when it will come on line. How far do they need to lower the water level to be able to accept worst case water inflow during the coming months and not reach the emergency spillway? |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:00:34 PM EDT
[#35]
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You don't need a pump to pump the water. Just some big ass pipes to build a siphon and a pump to prime it. You could run a few six foot concrete sewer pipes up and over the parking lot and around the edge of the weir and down the slope past the damaged area. Given enough time, you could run the pipes all the way down to the river and around the transmission towers. OK, maybe thats a bit optimistic but here's a calculator I found with gravity flow rates for concrete pipes. With the right size pipe and the right lengths you can get some amazing flow rates. I just don't know what numbers are realistic. http://www.calctool.org/CALC/eng/civil/hazen-williams_g Many of the airports I work at use box culvert that is massive. That calculator shows you could theoretically flow 40,000cfs through one. Wonder if its worth piecing together a few box culverts all the way down to the river and diverting water through them? It will take some time but they'll have to do something prior to the spring runoff.... |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:00:54 PM EDT
[#36]
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Nope,at this stage of the game they cannot allow any breach of the the water holding line anywhere. If they put a hole in it it only peel like a banana. Everything MUST HOLD! as long as possible and then it will fail. If the water is below the espillway base and they breach it, if the water get to that height against it will be a progressive release through the gap as water levels rise, vs a 30 foot wall of held back water flushing. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:06:23 PM EDT
[#37]
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Another thing I don't understand about the hydroplant "The turbine exhaust has no where to go" ??? There is a 600+' head of water above the channel. The heck it won't come out. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:06:53 PM EDT
[#38]
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Rubbing his hands together pleased to punish the conservative voters of northern California Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Where is Moonbeam? Rubbing his hands together pleased to punish the conservative voters of northern California Yup. Butte County is about 50-50 Placer, Sutter and Yuba Counties are mostly red |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:07:07 PM EDT
[#39]
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Live Feeds ABC KRCR Ch.7 Website: https://livestream.com/KRCR/events/3724366 Media Player: http://livestream-f.akamaihd.net/i/10262876_3724366_21538261_1@130528/index_2320_av-p.m3u8?sd=10&dw=100&rebase=on&hdntl=exp=1487034023~acl=%2fi%2f10262876_3724366_21538261_1%40130528%2f*~data=hdntl~hmac=9c6f5e6e738cf0e346082bbed8356f3e4a5843e4abf86c9ac2b5bd347a3d3c85 CBS Ch.13 Website: http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/show/live-video/ Media Player: http://play-prod1.live.anvato.net/server/play/cbslocal-kovrx-dfp/master.m3u8 NBC KCRA Ch.3 Website: http://www.kcra.com/nowcast FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/KCRA3/ FOX KTXL Ch.40 Website: https://livestream.com/accounts/9486720/events/3245377 Media Player: https://dai.google.com/linear/hls/event/DbrOivejTLmmcfcDWFbTHA/variant/cc66bae58548746f217767465846591a/stream/95b94368-4123-4200-ac54-281f2e11ed35:CBF/bandwidth/694272.m3u8 Lake Oroville Live Cam Website: http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=29411 Butte County Sheriff, Cal Fire, Chico and Paradise Police/Fire Scanner Website: http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/1929/web Media Player: http://relay.broadcastify.com/400803170.mp3 Simjedi Multi-Stream Feed https://youtu.be/yhzKVdSnPmg |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:07:14 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:08:00 PM EDT
[#41]
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Previous pics of an overspeeded turbine generator imply that it can't be done for months. They measure yards across at the impeller alone. No doubt someone will come along with a precise measurement but the real issue is did they leave an working crane with the capacity in the power house to do that? And if you do - aren't you opening a big hole into the tailstock pool that has become elevated? If they have gates to shut it off, then what do you have in the way of a new cover for the open hole? I never see those hanging from the ceiling in all the cool photos of hydroelectric dam turbine plants. It's all about the main spill way gates - which are good and big enough to handle it if managed properly. We will see on Wed/Thurs. The shaft for these are 4 stories tall and a meter across. The top floor is a HUGE open space with a monster crane to pull each one. The last time they pulled one it took years to complete. I've seen them with my own eyes spinning, and it's quite the experience. They are SUPER wide. They are one off, and take literally years to pull, refurb and install. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:08:31 PM EDT
[#42]
I dont understand why they dont use both lanes for evacuation.
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:09:36 PM EDT
[#43]
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If the water is below the espillway base and they breach it, if the water get to that height against it will be a progressive release through the gap as water levels rise, vs a 30 foot wall of held back water flushing. They have seen up to 290kcfs inflow into the reservoir. If they were to breach the espillway they would have no way to control that release. If you just breached a few feet of it, it would likely all wash out as the water rises- creating basically the same situation they tried to avert last night. If you take out the whole thing, you've just eliminated about 20 x 15800 acre feet of storage control. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:09:52 PM EDT
[#44]
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The shaft for these are 4 stories tall and a meter across. I've seen them with my own eyes spinning, and it's quite the experience. They are SUPER wide. They are one off, and take literally years to pull, refurb and install. @ Bonneville Dam we spent about 16mo per unit. Had room for 1 runner to be out at a time. ETA: Had room at 1 end of powerhouse for a runner, and floor space at the other end for stator frame. I don't see them unstacking all their turbines to add additional flow, when the spillway can theoretically push 250kCFS |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:11:55 PM EDT
[#45]
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@ Bonneville Dam we spent about 16mo per unit. Had room for 1 runner to be out at a time. How often do they need a refurb? |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:14:03 PM EDT
[#46]
I'm told there will be an avatar with the cool aid man and the dam?
I'm totally stoked about this. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:15:25 PM EDT
[#47]
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How often do they need a refurb? Complete tear-down refurb? Not often. It's a HUGE undertaking. They rebuilt the Oregon powerhouse starting in 1997, and finished 2010 I believe? WAYYY over budget and behind schedule. It is my understanding this is the first time since it was built, that the units have been torn down completely. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:18:33 PM EDT
[#48]
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The erosion has gotten wider, it looks like it's now cutting more to the west. Hard to tell if the erosion is going further north up the spillway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Spillway looks much better than I expected it would. It doesn't appear that there has been progression of the erosion up the spillway. It does even with increase in flow The erosion has gotten wider, it looks like it's now cutting more to the west. Hard to tell if the erosion is going further north up the spillway. Wider is actually better, as it means the water has spread out and is not as deep. Deep running water is fast and will erode at a fast pace. Shallow but wide running water does not erode as fast. |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:18:40 PM EDT
[#49]
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Hiding in a safe-space, transgender-approved, environmentally-friendly, non-judgmental public restroom while trying to figure out how to blame a state owned dam on the feds and Trump. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Where is Moonbeam? FIFY 
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Posted: 2/13/2017 1:19:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The shaft for these are 4 stories tall and a meter across. The top floor is a HUGE open space with a monster crane to pull each one. The last time they pulled one it took years to complete. I've seen them with my own eyes spinning, and it's quite the experience. They are SUPER wide. They are one off, and take literally years to pull, refurb and install. And probably old... Spares will be such fun to source... |
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