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Posted: 2/25/2005 9:35:21 AM EDT
Who's got em? Got pics? Why go short?
This isn't one of those, "why would you have such a short barrel, that's stupid" bait thread, I swear.  I love the look of the short FALs (OSW from DSA is a perfect example), but I'm curious if going so short doesn't really degrade the point of the .308 round.I would assume anything 16" or less would be mainly for CQB and I'm all for punching bigger holes in the target, but what are the drawbacks of going short? TIA. |
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Posted: 2/25/2005 9:50:21 AM EDT
[#1]
Depending on the length, increased muzzle blast and flash. I am not aware of any Flash suppressors that were specifically designed with shorter than Standard and Para length barrels in mind. To sum, your FS might work fine, might not. If it doesn't, and your buddies have properly suppressed rifles, guess who the opponent will notice and focus his fire upon? The rear sight graduations will become increasingly out of whack as the barrel is shortened. You can still set up a Battle Sight Zero (BSZ) but it will be shorter than the standard, due to the lessened velocity of the bullet. And if you want to shoot at another distance, forget using the rear sight graduations to help. Frankly, and in IMHO, unless you have an overriding reason to bob the barrel on an MBR, it's a bad idea 99% of the time . Recall that the Para rifles were a variant designed to fit in small spaces (the interior of an aircraft), and for lightness in weight. My guess is that many a Para-equipped soldier would have traded for a standard rifle once on the ground. |
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Posted: 2/25/2005 11:20:26 AM EDT
[#2]
Were the para length rifles really that short? Would have thought they'd be in the 18" length. Just guessing though...
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Posted: 2/25/2005 1:11:10 PM EDT
[#3]
The Para barrels are 17.xx inches or so.
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Posted: 2/25/2005 3:48:24 PM EDT
[#4]
I did it purely for looks. I'm not planning on taking it to any combat zones in my lifetime.
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Posted: 2/25/2005 4:46:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Some of the Argentine para's were 21" IIRC... |
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Posted: 2/25/2005 5:39:56 PM EDT
[#6]
My 16" l1a1 carbine.. why a short 308 - bottom line more firepower in a portable package.. I like the thump it makes at 200 and 300m on the gongs and can easiliy shoot it offhand. I figure I'm loosing a couple hundred feet per second but it still has all the energy to punch that 30cal deep inside the target. Range to extend out to 500m and penetration power .... I like the fal so much that it has replaced the AR and AK in my collection as my primary carbine.... I wouldnt go any shorter though, this one is just about right....
Was considering a SOCOM 16, AR10 carbine and PTR91 but went FAL and am glad I did... http://members.cox.net/cancun1/fal.jpg No impact to accuracy to boot.... http://members.cox.net/cancun1/falg.jpg |
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Posted: 2/25/2005 6:02:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Very good! |
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Posted: 2/25/2005 8:44:50 PM EDT
[#8]
I recently finished an inch, 16" barrel the FH brings it to around 18" or so. I will be test firing it tomorrow. I had to do some tweeking on it from the last test fire. Mine is mainly inch but I took what I liked from different meteric/inch and built something just for me.
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Posted: 2/26/2005 11:03:33 AM EDT
[#9]
FN cataloged para in 3 barrel lenghts per blake's bible
50-61 (steel lower) & 50-64 (alloy lower) in 533mm (20.984") 50-63 @ 436mm (17.165") 50-64 @ 458mm (18.031") |
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Posted: 2/26/2005 12:36:15 PM EDT
[#10]
 That's my 16" DSA Para. With the Steyr short FS, flash is a non-issue. As far as MV...I picked up a copy of G&A's Combat Arms issue, in which there is a review of the DSA Para Carbine 16". The chronograph data is as follows: Radway Green 150gr FMJ 2497 Rem-UMC 150gr FMJ 2542 Cor-Bon 125gr JHP 2813 Federal 168gr Gold Medal 2401 Hornady 168gr OTM 2421 Hornady 168gr TAP 2462 Black Hills 175gr OTM 2402 That's not a big loss considering the vastly improved handling you get with a short tube like this. |
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Posted: 2/26/2005 5:41:19 PM EDT
[#11]
Wow, that Cor-Bon is a bit hot for a FAL. I think I would leave that stuff out of a gas gun.
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Posted: 2/26/2005 6:23:53 PM EDT
[#12]
Nah. The TAP 110 is faster yet, but you can just turn the gas down a bit. Besides, look at the weight. |
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Posted: 2/26/2005 8:34:38 PM EDT
[#13]
That is one sweet FAL. What is the barrel length on it? I want to model my FAL after yours. 
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Posted: 2/26/2005 9:33:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Dang Quiet, that is truly some gun porn you've got there!
 Thanks for the responses. |
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Posted: 2/27/2005 12:31:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Why?
Because I could, the shorty is my answer to the M-14 SOCOM, it's fast and perfect for closer engagements. 
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Posted: 2/27/2005 5:36:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Wayne, it's an STG built on an Imbel. 16 inch barrel, plus Austrian flash supp.
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Posted: 2/27/2005 10:30:26 AM EDT
[#17]
Thank you sir. |
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Posted: 2/27/2005 5:20:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Didn't notice the 125g bullet weight. Doh! |
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Posted: 2/27/2005 5:23:12 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 2/27/2005 5:30:22 PM EDT
[#20]
i love my para with 16" barrel. i keep planning actually to cut it to 14" and add a belgian combo device for legal barrel length.
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Posted: 2/27/2005 5:58:19 PM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 2/27/2005 6:03:25 PM EDT
[#22]
Is that the DSA short gas system? That's sexy. You need the short rail now! |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 2:31:21 AM EDT
[#24]
Sounds like FUN to me!! 
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Posted: 3/1/2005 9:22:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Gunslinger,
nice wood! |
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Posted: 3/2/2005 6:45:40 PM EDT
[#26]
QS what type of FHs are you using on your M4 and your Para? Remman |
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Posted: 3/2/2005 6:55:00 PM EDT
[#27]
M4 is a Gemtech Bi-lock on a 14.5" M4 firing Q3131a
FAL is a Steyr Austrian short FS on a 16" Para FAL firing Aussie ball. |
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Posted: 3/2/2005 7:18:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Wow that was a fast response. Thanks QS Remman |
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Posted: 3/3/2005 6:29:20 AM EDT
[#29]
Nice rifle. How's that handguard? Pretty solid? |
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Posted: 3/3/2005 8:05:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Shawnr1, is that flash hider a Phoenix?
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Posted: 3/3/2005 8:16:12 AM EDT
[#31]
Very solid. |
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Posted: 3/3/2005 11:41:49 AM EDT
[#32]
Yep. Short rail system is on the list. I was trying not to get the rail sytem and scope mount........wanted to keep the weight down. I can't resist anymore. 
Yep. I had it made to fit my 13" metric barrel. A couple more pics here |
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Posted: 3/4/2005 5:55:46 PM EDT
[#33]
StG58C
 SA58C 
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Posted: 3/4/2005 6:09:43 PM EDT
[#34]
I left the muzzle brake on my SA58 carbine, as I shoot mostly for fun in 3-gun matches and the recoil reduction is worth the extra blast. Upgrades are Ergo pistol grip, heat-shield in handguards, extra-long Rhodesian buttstock and Para rear-sight:
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Posted: 3/5/2005 9:53:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Exactly. This contradicts your other statements saying that short barrels are a bad idea 99 percent of the time. There are applications for short barreled rifles besides being lighter and really cool looking. So let's just say they are a bad "some of the time." The barrel length does not solely determine flash signature, rather it is also the flash suppressor and type of ammo. If they ever make a Vortex for the 13 inch OSW--you won't see any flash (Smith-Enterprises is missing out on lots 'o business by not offering Vortexes for .308s). The steyr flash suppressor on a 16 inch FAL will give you the same flash signature as a 16 inch AR with an A2 flash hider. As for it being loud--all battle rifles are loud  . Wear earplugs.
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Posted: 3/6/2005 4:06:47 AM EDT
[#36]
There are other aspects of short-barreled rifles which render them less desirable (usually) than their longer barreled original versions. For example there is the already-mantioned increased flash and muzzle blast; the one revealing your position in the nighttime, the other during the day. Seldom do the sights work as originally intended. In fact, usuallu only a BSZ can be set. Agreed, there are sometimes flip apertures of slightly different ranges available, but these are not common. I do not say they are always bad. I admit that there may be some uses for SBRs for which the standard rifle, pistol, SMG, shotgun, and grenade may not serve as well, if not better; I just cannot name them right off, that's all. Let's be honest with ourselves, shall we? Most people converting their perfectly serviceable standard length battle rifles into semi-neutered short-barreled versions are doing it for the novelty aspect, not becauuse of any legitimate need. Such people would be far better off, under any circumstances imaginable, in using the money spent on their newest "cool-looking" rifle on extra ammo and time at the range.
Smith used to offer a far wider assortment of FS and MB units than now appears on their web site. Some of them can be had, still, if you know where and how.
There are a number of factors influencing muzzle flash, as you have noted, not all of which are under the shooter's control at any given moment. One thing's for sure: the less, the better. Why bob the barrel of your rifle and automatically start out behind? As for the rest of your claims, I look forward to your providing some substantion of same.
MMmmmmmmmmmmm, not quite. If you had taken the time to research the matter, you would know that the longer-barreled rifles of the WW I era are distinctly easier on the ear than their shorter-barreled descendants of WW II. Please do at least a little research before claiming things that are patently untrue. |
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Posted: 3/6/2005 6:40:02 AM EDT
[#37]
" using the money spent on their newest "cool-looking" rifle on extra ammo and time at the range"
But what about all those people like me who won't go to the range without a cool looking rifle?
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Posted: 3/6/2005 11:33:04 AM EDT
[#38]
 i've recently added a flash suppressor not pictured... |
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Posted: 3/6/2005 8:49:07 PM EDT
[#39]
For my use, and for the use of virtually any non-military or police SWAT member these considerations are irrelevant. I hope you are aware that no ARFCOM member will encounter any situation where what you state is realistic or relevant. I don't need to hide my position at the range--which is the only place most of us shoot our rifles. Anyways--Long barreled rifles also have flash during nighttime (without a vortex or phantom) and muzzle blast during daytime hours which could also reveal position. If I ever find myself in a domestic urban warfare situation (I know, it won't happen)-a bobbed rifle could come in very handy.
So what? Who cares if it isn't common? I happen to prefer a BSZ.
Nice try Ace. You said that they were bad 99 percent of the time. That's pretty damn close to always. Keep backpedaling.
Well golly gee, aren't you supposed to be the EXPERT? If you can't think of any what kind of authority are you? Thanks for helping to make my point.
There you go again, making silly blanket statements like "under any circumstances imaginable." There are legitimate needs for short barreled rifles. Appearances also count for everything from women to cars and believe it or not guns. Also, have you ever heard of collectors? You can't have too many rifles is my motto.
Why don't you share this with the board? What's the big secret?
I wouldn't call what you provided or stated to be any type of substantiation.
Please let me know when they pull that huge stick out of your ass. Are you always this condescending and obnoxious? For the record I wasn't talking about World War one rifles. The discussion is about modern rifles. I don't think anyone ('cept you of course) was interested in such rifles. THIS IS NOT THE CURIOS AND RELICS FORUM---THIS IS THE FAL FORUM P.S. Most of what we are discussing here relates to OPINION and TASTE. Just because others don't share your opinion doesn't mean that they are fools or don't have uses for their SBRs. We get it. You don't like SBRs. BUT, I do and so do thousands of other gun owners. And you know what? We get LOTS of enjoyment out of our "bobbed rifles." GUNS ARE FUN! And, you, obviously are NOT fun. Lighten up, Francis. |
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Posted: 3/7/2005 8:43:09 AM EDT
[#40]
Talk about a blanket statement. Are you positive about this?
Not always true. The M1917 and some of the older Arisakas were notably flash-free, due to the length of their barrels. The Japanese rifles, in particular, gave US troops a hard time, as their lacking blast and flash made the well-camouflaged Japanese shooter very difficult to find.
That is good for you, I guess, as that's all you're likely to get. Some of us prefer adjustable rear sights.
I stand by what I said.
I make no claim to "authority" or "expert" status. I, again, stand by what I said.
"Legitimate needs"? What might they be that they are not better handled by other means? Still waiting for a listing of these "needs". As for appearance, I adhere to the "form follows function" school of aesthetics, and the SBR, having few, if any legitimate uses that cannot be done better by other means, has a form which follows no legitimate function. Hence, it is ugly in my eyes. You mention collectibility; I can't think of very many items which, after being bastardized, are more valuable than they were in their original form.
If you had left the barrel alone, you wouldn't need one quite so much, now would you?
I think I've provided some historical examples to back up my case. Basic physics should take care of the rest. You however, have provided nothing in the way of substantiation.
I think I must have struck a nerve. Maybe it's you who should chill out. It's only the internet, you know. |
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Posted: 3/7/2005 10:55:13 AM EDT
[#41]
Ignore raf, JRussell. Here's a good review of the 11 and 13 inch OSW FALs by DSA. www.dsarms.com/pdf/SOF1002.pdf It is by Soldier of Fortune Mag. A quote from that article: "muzzle blast and flash varied by load but was substantially less than an 11 inch 5.56" And that is with an OSW with MUZZLE BRAKE! Muzzle breaks tend to be much louder--they can increase noise by 12dB. |
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Posted: 3/7/2005 11:15:37 AM EDT
[#42]
Uh, ThunderStick? If you read JRussell's entire post, he's asking for opinions on the pros and cons of chopping the FAL barrel. That's what I gave him, my opinion. Continue reading below, and you will see what I mean.
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Posted: 3/7/2005 11:22:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Well, I just ordered another Fal kit. I'm sending the barrel off the Moses to cut it to 14.75" and perm attach a DSA short styer FH. Oh, and he's gonna turn down the bbl to a M14 profile, should save about 4 or 5 oz.'s.
I built a similar FAL last year and put Izzy Furniture on it. The bbl was cut to 15" and a short stoll brake was added.............Of course in perfect dumbass fashion, I sold it.{  (BTW: It sold in five minutes. I got more than 30 emails from people who wanted it....guess Im not the only one)But I still got a pic.   Short barrel FAL?.......Me Likey!!  
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Posted: 3/7/2005 11:31:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Edited for length and clarity-I hope.
HELLOOOO! Are you slow? This is the FAL Forum. The comparison should be between FALs of varoius barrel lengths. We need to compare 21 inch FALs to 18 inch, to 17.25 inch, to 13 inch to 11 inch barrels--ALL of which are offered by DSA. The original poster isn't going to buy an ARISAKA, genius. For the record Japaneses soldiers were experts at concealment. To say it was because of the Arisaka rifle is idiotic. There were Japanese soldiers still hiding out decades after the war was over.
Actually, I use optics. But that's neither here nor there.
Thanks for admitting that you are not an expert. Neither am I.
I get all I need from my shorty FAL on the range. What are your needs? What uses are practical for a civilian that cannot be provided by such rifles? Personally, I have rifles and shotguns and pistols of many types. I guess I am not as limited as you. I can pick and choose for the purpose. You sound like some anti-gunner.
It ain't bastardized if it is sold that way--by the manufacturer.
This leads me to believe that you are full of crap. This means you can't actually find these items. You were posting BS. I repeat I didn't touch the barrel, genius, I bought it that way.
You have not provided anything. Show me a decibel level comparison for 11", 13", 16" and 21 inch FALs. APPLES TO APPLES.
No you haven't struck a nerve, you have only shown ignorance and irrelevance. raf, where are your links or references proving the muzzle blast and flash shortcomings of the shorty FAL? Give me an internet link or a book title and page number. decibel levels of various rifle calibers home.sprynet.com/~frfrog2/miscelli.htm Remember--muzzle brakes add a great deal of noise to shooters ears. Pain Threshold 140dB 7mm 158dB .30-06 163 dB .44Magnum 164dB .357Magnum 165dB shotgun 170dB rocket launch 180dB All battle rifles have a report of greater than 140 dB which is the human pain threshold. Bitching about short barrel blast is irrelevant. All gunfire can and will damage your hearing. Wear hearing protection at all times when firing weapons. |
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Posted: 3/7/2005 11:51:41 AM EDT
[#45]
Damn, why am I engaging in a virtual tit for tat with raf? Why do I care what some unknown guy thinks? Why did I waste valuable time looking up a favorable OSW review and rifle caliber decibel levels? I don't see how some of you guys find the time to post thousands of times!
I guess I just don't understand the gall of somebody commenting on a rifle he doesn't own or shoot. I would think someone who owns and has experienced shooting the rifle is more pertinent on the subject. Muzzle flash--not a problem. Muzzle blast--not a problem unless you use a muzzle brake. In the final analysis, my opinion, which is worth more than raf's (he wouldn't stoop so low as to own a worthless SBR) since I actually own two DSA PARAs (16" regular and 13" with shortened gas system). BUY IT!! You won't regret it. They are beautiful rifles and a lotta fun! |
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Posted: 3/8/2005 6:30:58 AM EDT
[#46]
 Waaaaaahh!! Im such a freakin Idiot!!!! neversellarifleneversellarifleneversellarifleneversellarifleneversellarifleneversellarifle....... |
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Posted: 3/8/2005 7:20:17 AM EDT
[#47]
The principle remains the same regardless of the make of rifle. We are talking basic physics here.
LTC John George (U.S.A., Merril's Marauders) in his book "Shots Fired in Anger", seems to disagree with you. Read some history. And some physics, while you're at it.
Again, the principle remains the same. Your optics are only good for a BSZ. To the extent you chop the barrel, any bullet drop compensator device (either mechanical or optical) will be increasingly worthless.
That has become evident.
I have a few firearms, also. But I am always reminded of the old saying: "Beware of the one-gun man" . There's some truth to that adage. Why is it that some people equate mere ownership with skill and knowledge?
Junk comes off the assembly line all the time. Ever see a Yugo?
Chaps your butt I won't tell you, doesn't it? Maybe if you had been a bit more civil...
Who, besides you, cares about decibel levels in this thread? I've mentioned muzzle flash and muzzle blast as my concerns. There was a thread in the Armory forums within the last few days showing pix of all sorts of rifles with and w/o FS devices and comps. different length barrels as well. If you had seen that thread, you might not have posted some of the things you have.
Dude, you make my hair hurt. I can understand ignorance, I can even understand stupidity. What I've never been able to understand is willful ignorance in the face of facts. Enjoy your SBRs. And pray that you never have to face a skilled opponent with a longer barrel. Best of luck to you. |
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Posted: 3/8/2005 6:42:43 PM EDT
[#48]
You guys are screwing up this thread. Seriously....
More pics of short FAL's please! |
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Posted: 3/9/2005 4:14:11 AM EDT
[#49]
+1! this pic has been pimped out all over the net, but I never get tired of it. 
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Posted: 3/9/2005 10:52:17 AM EDT
[#50]
Come on guys, who really fracking cares (yes, I’m a Battlestar Galactica geek too)
Ya’ll can argue the merits, or lack there of, of a short(er) barreled 7.62 weapon (SBR), but it’s pointless. I’ll bet the majority of the folks here, say 99% (couldn’t resist) are armchair warriors and will never intentionally go after man or beast with a short FAL; it’s not the brightest idea going. So that would make the other 1% of the people here real live operators with some kind of co-dependency thing going on; really, if you’re that much of an operator, what in the hell are you doing here with all the other gun dorks and wannabes.
ThunderStick, I gotta tell ya, don’t believe everything in gun rags like SOF, those guys are full of shit. There’s no way in hell my 10-inch arf is even remotely close in blast/concussion/whatever to my 11-inch FAL. Ultimately, the FAL is a very durable and reliable weapon, there are many very cool configurations, the carbine and SBR are just a couple. Back to the p0rn.   |
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