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Posted: 10/28/2020 1:27:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Carry what you want. I'm opposite of you as clothing goes. Being an ex-cop I've seen bullets do all kinds of things like a 147 black talon go through a t-shirt and both lungs and fail to expand. A 180gr Hydrashock from a G22 through a t-shirt into abdomen and out the buttock failing to expand. Both suspects made it to the hospital but died the next day. A 180gr gold dot from G22 to head and bullet fully expanded causing the head to come apart like a rifle round had hit it. How about the 14 year old who took a .177 pellet rifle piece of lead to the heart from 10 feet.
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Posted: 10/28/2020 1:28:50 AM EDT
[#2]
+P never a bad idea.
I use Hornady Critical Duty +P 135 gr |
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Posted: 10/28/2020 1:29:25 AM EDT
[#3]
Depends but hst g2g. And to be honest talks of ballistics are overrated. If you have to shoot someone, in the chest. They will stop doing whatever it is that made you shoot them.
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Posted: 10/28/2020 8:58:37 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends but hst g2g. And to be honest talks of ballistics are overrated. If you have to shoot someone, in the chest. They will stop doing whatever it is that made you shoot them. This! I don't want to get shot with anything... hollow point, round nose, practice ammo, anything. It doesn't matter. It's going to hurt really, really bad. |
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Posted: 10/28/2020 9:18:06 AM EDT
[#5]
124gr +P Gold Dot in my carry guns in all seasons. 147gr HST in my suppressed house pistol.
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Posted: 10/28/2020 9:18:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Unless you are talking "winter clothing" like Alaska with 3 heavy coats and 5 sweaters I think standard summer ammo would do just fine.
Also assuming you are not talking about a .380 or 32 or something marginal at best. Then maybe FMJ. *Disclosure: I live in FL were "winter clothing" is socks with my flip flops. |
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Posted: 10/28/2020 9:18:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Dupe
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Posted: 10/28/2020 9:20:32 AM EDT
[#8]
ive seen some weird stuff bulletwise...
one of the weirdest was a time i responded to my livestock being attacked by 2 extremely large stray mastiff mix type dogs on the farm. i fired a round at the head of the first( 9mm hollowpoint probably wimhester) and it rolled... shot the second it was drt. the first jumps up and comes at me catching a second shot to the face and drt. aar...looked them over and the first hollowpoint i fired is actually wrapped around the metal buckle of first dogs collar. buckle stopped it cold. moral of the story, plan on keep shooting until attacker stops attacking. |
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Posted: 10/28/2020 3:18:47 PM EDT
[#9]
The ammo choices you suggest are all perfectly suitable for use all year round.
Don't worry about it, there's nothing you can do about it. You putting those rounds where they need to go is far more important. That said, I suppose the hornady critical loads with their polymer tips are supposed to perform much better through various junk. IIRC, they just don't perform as well in lighter clothing. In reality, I'd carry them with just as willingly as any of the above. |
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Posted: 10/28/2020 6:46:40 PM EDT
[#10]
There should never be a question of changing winter ammo from summer ammo. If it doesn’t penetrate enough in the winter, why would you carry it in the summer?
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Posted: 10/28/2020 10:19:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Any quality standard duty loading will perform regardless of season. If anyone can provide an example of an LE agency whether it be local, state or federal that changes loadings by season I'd love to hear about it. A CBP officer freezing his stones off at a border port in Sault St. Marie in January is carrying the same loading as a CBP officer sweating his balls off in Lukeville, AZ in July.
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Posted: 10/28/2020 10:23:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless you are talking "winter clothing" like Alaska with 3 heavy coats and 5 sweaters I think standard summer ammo would do just fine. Also assuming you are not talking about a .380 or 32 or something marginal at best. Then maybe FMJ. *Disclosure: I live in FL were "winter clothing" is socks with my flip flops. I'd like to know what someone wearing 5 sweaters and 3 heavy winter coats do to you aside from falling on you and smothering you to death. |
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Posted: 10/29/2020 7:39:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to know what someone wearing 5 sweaters and 3 heavy winter coats do to you aside from falling on you and smothering you to death. Like I said I'm in FL and dont know how HEAVY heavy clothing can get. This "winter ammo" topic comes up often enough that it makes me wonder what you Northern dudes are up against. |
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Posted: 11/1/2020 5:29:59 PM EDT
[#14]
The key design feature you’re referring to is anti-clog design of the nose of the projectile. This is a legit concern given the current popularity of Canada Goose jackets and other puffy coats. This has given rise to “plugged” JHPs like the Hornady Critical Duty/Defense or Speer Gold Dot G2. The wide nose cavity of the Federal HST is also highly resistant to clogging. My agency (Minnesota, so we know all about winter) has used the HST for the last 4 years, and the Federal Tactical Bonded JHP before that for ~8 years, and the Hydra-Shok before that. We have numerous OIS’s in winter with all of those loads. All have worked well enough, but the HST has been the most consistent in terms of expansion of recovered bullets.
I have seen pretty bad clogging issues with bullets like the Federal Hydra-Shok, which is a problem when you want the bullet to inflict maximum damage through wound channel. As others have said, the bullet will still go through the body and do body damage, even if it clogs. I would just prefer to have the bullet expand properly and make the hole be twice as large. |
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Posted: 11/4/2020 12:30:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The key design feature you’re referring to is anti-clog design of the nose of the projectile. This is a legit concern given the current popularity of Canada Goose jackets and other puffy coats. This has given rise to “plugged” JHPs like the Hornady Critical Duty/Defense or Speer Gold Dot G2. The wide nose cavity of the Federal HST is also highly resistant to clogging. My agency (Minnesota, so we know all about winter) has used the HST for the last 4 years, and the Federal Tactical Bonded JHP before that for ~8 years, and the Hydra-Shok before that. We have numerous OIS’s in winter with all of those loads. All have worked well enough, but the HST has been the most consistent in terms of expansion of recovered bullets. I have seen pretty bad clogging issues with bullets like the Federal Hydra-Shok, which is a problem when you want the bullet to inflict maximum damage through wound channel. As others have said, the bullet will still go through the body and do body damage, even if it clogs. I would just prefer to have the bullet expand properly and make the hole be twice as large. I would expect the big puffy down jackets to do much less to bullets than duck cotton, leather being the toughest. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 1:02:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There should never be a question of changing winter ammo from summer ammo. If it doesn’t penetrate enough in the winter, why would you carry it in the summer? This is the answer that should have ended the thread. Clothes are not the only obstacle your bullet might need to overcome, season notwithstanding. |
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Posted: 12/5/2020 2:23:55 PM EDT
[#17]
When I first started carrying & was switching ammo a lot. For a while I started carrying the Glaser safety bullets (blue tip). Then I learned they made another variety designed for more penetration through thicker winter type clothing (white tip) so I added those. Now back then (maybe still are) they were sold in packs of 6 & were about $1.25 a bullet when most regular JHP was well under 30 cents per round. To fill one mag required buying at least 3 packs, not cheap for a college kid fresh out of the army. I eventually decided the cost of them was too high to be able to train with & quit carrying them. I've now settled on Hornady Critical Duty for my G23. They are designed to get good penetration through thick clothes or other material (expansions suffers a bit though) and if the person is only wearing light clothes the expansion increases & the penetration is reduced. Really most any good JHP is going to put whoever you hit with one in a hurt bag, use whatever you are able to find & afford in this current situation. Luckily I stocked up on Critical Duty before it hit & have about 500 rounds of it on hand, would've liked to got more, but it's damn hard to find, especially at the 45-50 cents per round I was getting it for.
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Posted: 12/6/2020 7:51:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Maybe practice more headshots.
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Posted: 12/7/2020 4:12:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Well, everyone is wearing masks now.
What defensive round works best with those? If you are going to focus on head shots, mask usage plays a roll................... |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 4:36:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, everyone is wearing masks now. What defensive round works best with those? If you are going to focus on head shots, mask usage plays a roll................... I guess I need to get some kevlar masks. |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 6:12:59 PM EDT
[#21]
I've never understood seasonal carry ammo. Why not just carry what works in the winter all the time.
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Posted: 12/7/2020 6:15:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, everyone is wearing masks now. What defensive round works best with those? If you are going to focus on head shots, mask usage plays a roll................... |
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Posted: 12/7/2020 6:26:56 PM EDT
[#23]
heads and hips, never know what's under that coat
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Posted: 12/9/2020 10:43:48 PM EDT
[#24]
I carry HPs year round. Worst case in winter, they get clogged and perform has FMJ.
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Posted: 12/10/2020 12:39:31 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've never understood seasonal carry ammo. Why not just carry what works in the winter all the time. Cause some of us may actually not want a bullet that over penetrates. |
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Posted: 12/10/2020 1:37:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cause some of us may actually not want a bullet that over penetrates. What bullet doesn’t over penetrate in the winter but does so in the summer? There is no such thing. |
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Posted: 12/10/2020 2:17:50 AM EDT
[#27]
When I first started carrying, I was all about the "best ammo" and gel tests, etc. Now I have carry mags with 3 different kinds of ammo in the mag. I have a different carry gun that will only feed FMJ for the first couple of rounds in a full mag, so its JHP, 2 FMJ then more JHP. I rotate my carry ammo and if I don't shoot everything in the mag, that ammo back into the mag for the next time. The only rule I seem to be experiencing is that no matter what JHP I choose to carry, the next time I go to buy, that particular ammo is unobtanium, so I am happy if I can find SOMETHING in at least the same bullet weight.
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Posted: 12/10/2020 10:09:55 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cause some of us may actually not want a bullet that over penetrates. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've never understood seasonal carry ammo. Why not just carry what works in the winter all the time. Cause some of us may actually not want a bullet that over penetrates. How do you define overpenetration? Overpenetration of your target after a hit, or overpenetration of peripheral objects in the event of a miss? If the former; I've never heard of it being an actual problem outside the musings of armchair tacticians, the latter might be a concern in home defense though. |
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Posted: 12/10/2020 10:15:38 AM EDT
[#29]
I carry Underwood +P defenders all year round, but I'm thinking of switching to the penetrators. Tim at the Military Arms Channel did a video on these, and I was sold. These bullets DGAF about barriers.
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Posted: 12/10/2020 4:09:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you define overpenetration? Overpenetration of your target after a hit, or overpenetration of peripheral objects in the event of a miss? If the former; I've never heard of it being an actual problem outside the musings of armchair tacticians, the latter might be a concern in home defense though. This! 100 percent spot on. Every miss is an over penetrator. Almost every shooting has a high percentage of a miss or misses occurring. It has never been a thing in the past until hollow points were marketed. And even with hollow points, the best ones fail to expand and penetrate over 20 inches in gel and behave like a FMJ at times. |
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Posted: 12/12/2020 7:18:48 PM EDT
[#31]
meh., just use good carry ammo.
in 9mm, i carry the ranger 147gr in my little guns and the ranger 124gr+P in my bigger guns. |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 1:35:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Carry a more powerful handgun in the winter, problem solved.
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Posted: 12/13/2020 11:01:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Carry a more powerful handgun in the winter, problem solved. Or carry a 10mm pistol daily, loaded with real 10mm ammo. Then you can ignore what season it is.  To a 10mm, ... every target is like 'buddar.'  |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 11:03:24 AM EDT
[#34]
147 HSTs don’t care. All year carry
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Posted: 12/13/2020 11:15:56 AM EDT
[#35]
Last year I helped do the testing for my Dept for 9mm duty ammo.
When family or friends ask me for ammo recommendations I always have the same answer Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot across the board in every caliber and bullet weight are a good choice. We tested to FBI protocols which includes heavy clothing (4 layers of denim) laminated auto glass at an angle, sheet metal, etc... We went with HST 124+P as it performed a little better and functioned the G17.5 with reliability |
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Posted: 12/13/2020 9:21:31 PM EDT
[#36]
I upsize to a bigger caliber. Switch from a Glock 19 to a 20 or 21 in winter.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 11:17:33 AM EDT
[#37]
I have carried Winchester Ranger 147 grain HP in 9mm on duty for over 20 years. The Canadian police force I work for conducted many tests with heavy cold weather clothing and such and the greatest concern was penetration through multiple layers of clothing. The 147 grain was the choice for that reason. I have seen multiple shootings and the round has been effective in every regards in each instance. I use it with complete confidence. Would I use it if I could choose my own duty load? Sure. Is there something better out there? Probably - perhaps. Well-placed rounds still are more important than the rounds themselves in many instances.
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Posted: 1/13/2021 12:04:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Same as in the summer.
Carry a high quality JHP and stop overthinking it. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 12:12:27 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or carry a 10mm pistol daily, loaded with real 10mm ammo. Then you can ignore what season it is. To a 10mm, ... every target is like 'buddar.' I’ve yet to see a serious advocate of 10mm actually shoot enough to rise to a level of acceptable proficiency. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 1:44:46 PM EDT
[#40]
The same issues that will plague 9mm Hollow Points due to bad ammunition will plague 10mm Hollow Points due to bad ammunition. Bad ammunition that under penetrates because of early full expansion going through many layers of clothing or over penetrates due to no expansion at all is bad ammunition no matter what the caliber.
The same applies to bullet weight of the same caliber. A bad 147 gr 9mm bullet will be worse than a properly designed 124 gr bullet. Heavier weight being better for the most part mostly applies to hunting bullets that do not expand designed for maximum penetration. A good 10mm and a 9mm will both penetrate in the 12 to 18 inch gel window. |
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Posted: 1/13/2021 8:55:53 PM EDT
[#41]
One round, year round carry.
HST or G2 Golddot. "Don't over think it" ....excellent advice to listen to. Ranger T-series failed too many tests for me to feel comfortable with. My department still issues that unfortunately. Now that I'm retired I carry better ammo. Anyone seen tests on the newer Win. Ranger One ammo? Oh, and. 10mm for the win....... |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 9:41:58 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +P never a bad idea. I use Hornady Critical Duty +P 135 gr Actually it seems it is a bad idea most of the time. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 9:48:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve yet to see a serious advocate of 10mm actually shoot enough to rise to a level of acceptable proficiency. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Or carry a 10mm pistol daily, loaded with real 10mm ammo. Then you can ignore what season it is. To a 10mm, ... every target is like 'buddar.' I’ve yet to see a serious advocate of 10mm actually shoot enough to rise to a level of acceptable proficiency. LOL seriously? I carry my full sized 10mm 1911 often in the winter. I shoot it in IDPA plenty....I honestly don't see much different between a 10 mm and a .45 out of a 1911. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 9:57:09 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL seriously? I carry my full sized 10mm 1911 often in the winter. I shoot it in IDPA plenty....I honestly don't see much different between a 10 mm and a .45 out of a 1911. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 10:11:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL seriously? I carry my full sized 10mm 1911 often in the winter. I shoot it in IDPA plenty....I honestly don't see much different between a 10 mm and a .45 out of a 1911. Yes seriously... Post your classification card. |
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Posted: 1/18/2021 11:45:26 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is your classification? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: LOL seriously? I carry my full sized 10mm 1911 often in the winter. I shoot it in IDPA plenty....I honestly don't see much different between a 10 mm and a .45 out of a 1911. I never shot a classifier until this past September. I shoot with my carry guns (all 1911's except a JFrame BUG). My CDP classifier was SS....but that was with a .45 ACP 1911. For fucks sake, a classifier isn't that difficult. I have spent a lifetime shooting heavy recoiling handguns. A 10 mm out of a full sized steel framed 1911 (mine is a Springfield) isn't that big of a deal. YMMV. Edit...have you shot a 10 mm in something other than a Glock? I shot a friends Glock 10 mm, and it did jump around a bit. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 12:14:07 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never shot a classifier until this past September. I shoot with my carry guns (all 1911's except a JFrame BUG). My CDP classifier was SS....but that was with a .45 ACP 1911. For fucks sake, a classifier isn't that difficult. I have spent a lifetime shooting heavy recoiling handguns. A 10 mm out of a full sized steel framed 1911 (mine is a Springfield) isn't that big of a deal. YMMV. Edit...have you shot a 10 mm in something other than a Glock? I shot a friends Glock 10 mm, and it did jump around a bit. |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 12:28:34 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To 45-Seventy's point, just because you carry something and shoot comps with it doesn't mean you are proficient with it. I knew a guy that carried a S&W 500. Without a frame of reference your post is irrelevant. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I never shot a classifier until this past September. I shoot with my carry guns (all 1911's except a JFrame BUG). My CDP classifier was SS....but that was with a .45 ACP 1911. For fucks sake, a classifier isn't that difficult. I have spent a lifetime shooting heavy recoiling handguns. A 10 mm out of a full sized steel framed 1911 (mine is a Springfield) isn't that big of a deal. YMMV. Edit...have you shot a 10 mm in something other than a Glock? I shot a friends Glock 10 mm, and it did jump around a bit. OK Here’s a thought... I wouldn’t carry it if I wasn’t competent with it. A 10 mm is hardly the same as carrying a S&W 500. Good luck |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 12:30:55 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK Here's a thought... I wouldn't carry it if I wasn't competent with it. A 10 mm is hardly the same as carrying a S&W 500. Good luck |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 7:16:04 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Define competent. And good luck with what? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OK Here's a thought... I wouldn't carry it if I wasn't competent with it. A 10 mm is hardly the same as carrying a S&W 500. Good luck Why? Because a couple internet guys say I can't? LOL. Fucking comical. Sometimes I wonder if 1/2 the people on here even shoot the guns they pretend to own. |
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