Is .45 185 loaded hot able to do most of wht a 10mm can do in a woods carry situation?

Seems penetration and capacity is slightly reduced over the 10mm but generally they are close?

45 acp energy tops out at like 450 ftlbs, were as 10mm can be 700 ftlbs or more and 15 shots in a glock 20 so that's the icing on the cake.

Generally speaking 10mm is known to be deeper penetrating than .45acp, making it usually preferable in the woods where penetration is more desirable than expansion in most situations.

For woods  load I'd probably load a .45 with 255gr hardcast. I'd prefer hot 200-220gr 10mm hardcast or 180gr Trophy Bonded but for anything under a brown bear I'm not sure how bad I'd feel with a .45 and a good 185 or 230gr bullet.

5pins did a test with various.45 ACP and 10mm and the 10mm penetrated way more (though .45 did about 30in with hardcast whicu isn't bad, especially if not for brown bears). Im on my phone but later tonight I'll try to get a link.

Also some more experienced hunters can chime in but I'm not sure how bad 9mm with 147gr Gold Dots or 147gr XTP would do against a cougar or dog.

Op.. NO. Not realy.
200ft/lbs more energy. More magazine capacity. Better sectional density for penetration.

Bears and Hogs..10mm probably has a real advantage. Everything else..? 450-500 ft/lbs of energy delivered to target in any caliber.. ? Probably does not matter. 9mm and up can achieve 500 ft/lbs @ the muzzle.
IMO there is no substitute for energy delivered to target. Wether it gets used to the best potential is a different problem. However if you start with a deficit you can not make it up. Gear up towards the goal or need !

Carrying because you want or may need that extra measure of energy delivered to target.. 10mm.
Potential Kenetic energy available (Ft/lbs) is the only yard stick we have. Where you start has an affect on where it ends. Everything else is Backround noise that humans ponder over incessantly.

Like kev10mm said the 10mm out classes the .45 for pure penatration. The question is, how much do you need and is the .45 enough?

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/double-tap-10mm-and-45-acp-woods-loads

A 45 with the right bullet is probably enough for anything you will run into in Ohio. I have shot jack rabbits and one coyote with a 45. The jacks hardly showed any reaction for a few seconds until they tipped over. I had to run after the coyote and hit him a few more times until I put him down. Probably the ammunitions fault. I should have gone for a hard cast with a big flat nose. Now I carry the Glock 29 as my primary mountain gun.

Under real world conditions I imagine the .45 loaded with a 255 hard cast could do anything the 10mm can.

Due to sectional density, the 10mm wins.

But in practical terms, I doubt there will be any difference. Especially when using specialty boutique loads for both like heavy hard cast.

Depends on what you mean by "most of."

Will it easily take care of anything smaller than a Black Bear? Yeah, without a doubt. Get yourself a 255gr Hard Cast round from someone like Underwood and i would have no problem with it in backcountry without bears.

With bears, i prefer a 10mm. More penetration and much more energy. Would a +P 255gr hardcast 45 work on a bear? Yeah, probably. I just prefer the extra energy and penetration that the 10mm provides as i usually hike solo, so i'd rather not risk it.

In the real world? If you shoot a 45 a lot better than a 10mm, go with the 45.

Nope.

In addition to the 10mm's better penetrative ability (due to its higher sectional density), it imparts a way higher degree of ballistic energy.  You can push 200gn and  220gn hardcast loads to 1250fps-1275fps -  which yields 720-ish to 760-ish FPE.

A 185gn .45 can't get anywhere near that even from a 5" tube. Understand, I'm not saying that a 'hot' 185gn 45acp load won't work for your individual application, but it's just not comparable to what a 'heavy & fast' 10mm can do.

Nope ... Not close, assuming you're talking about 'real' 10mm ammo.

The .45 & 10mm only look 'close' if you're comparing the watered-down '.40-level types of mainstream 10mm junk.  For full-power 10mm ammo, avoid the .40-duplicating junk loads. For general 'outdoors'/'woods carry' ammo in 10mm, look at Underwood, Buffalo Bore, or Double Tap - especially these companies'  heavy & fast  hardcast stuff.

Since the OPs question was, can a .45 do most of what a 10mm can? I would argue that with specialized ammo from Buffalo Boar/Underwood (like what's required for the 10mm), yes, a .45 with a 255 grain hard cast CAN do most of what a 10mm can.

Doesn't matter to me though....I have a .357 mag which when I use Buffalo Boar, outclasses both the 10mm and .45 in energy and penetration. Remember, a 180 grain .357 bullet has a greater sectional density than a 220 10mm.

NO.   Truthfully I feel the .45 is better than 10mm because it punches a bigger hole.   Too many people get wrapped up in ft-lbs of energy, and that's not a good thing, hell it's just a calculation.  I've seen deer drop like a sack of spuds from a well placed .40 and .45, so no, a 10mm isn't necessary at all, it just appeals to people too wrapped up in the energy game.    But I will say, for penetration purposes, I'd not choose a 185gr .45 ACP load, stick to 230gr.

Plus if you want more power the.45 Super is the same exact dimensions as the .45 ACP, just higher pressure.  I've handloaded .45 Super to over 1,000 ft-lbs and it can run anywhere from a 185gr JHP up to a 300gr hardcast.   The 10mm is good, I'm not going to knock it, but the .45 Super is better and the ACP is every bit as good.

I agree with you about the energy thing but deeper penetration is sometimes needed. For something like a bear, the size of the hole isn't what is going to stop him immediately. Penetration through hide, bones, muscle, and fat to his organs is what will and a 10mm will out-penetrate a .45 ACP, SWC, or Super every time due to it's smaller diameter and similar weight in hard cast loads that have more velocity.

Because bears keep being brought up as the litmus test. This is from another thread in this forum. Link at bottom to the article explains each case a little deeper. As in most cases shot placement, using your head, and coolness under extreme pressure is more important than caliber.(within reason)

To summarize, we have found 37 verified cases where pistols were used to defend against bear attacks. Included, for complete data reporting, are two cases where bears were shot at with both rifles and pistols, making it difficult to determine the efficacy of pistols alone.

Of the 35 strictly pistol defense cases, one was a clear failure. That is the use of the .357 against an Alaskan grizzly by a geologist on 20 June, 2010. It is likely the bear was not hit in that incident.

There are four successful defenses with 9 mm pistols. The three grizzly bears were killed, the black bear was wounded and ran off.

Two of the three uses of the .357 were successful. One was against a grizzly that was stopped with one shot, but then escaped. The other grizzly was killed with six shots fired.

There were three uses of .40 caliber pistols, all against black bears, all successful, all of the bears were killed.

There was one use of a 10 mm pistol against a grizzly. 4 or 5 shots were fired. It was successful and the bear was killed.

There were two uses of .41 magnum revolvers. Both were against grizzly bears, both were successful and the bears were killed.

There were twelve uses of .44 magnum revolvers. All were successful. One was against a black bear, it was mortally wounded but finished off with shotgun slugs. Eleven were against grizzly bears. Two were driven of with “warning shots”. One was driven off, without evidence of being wounded. One was wounded and not recovered. One was wounded and finished off at the scene with a shotgun slug. Six were killed without further assistance.

There were four uses of .45 caliber pistols against bears. All were successful. One was against a black bear, which was killed with additional shots, probably from another handgun. The other three were grizzly bears killed with multiple hits from the .45 caliber pistols.

There was one use of a .45 Super pistol. It was successful. The grizzly bear was killed with one shot.

There was one use of a .454 Casull revolver. 4 or 5 shots were fired and the grizzly bear was finished off at the scene with a rifle brought by the defender's wife.

There were three cases of pistol defenses against bears where the pistol caliber was not identified. One was a grizzly, which ran off. It was not determined if the bear was wounded or not. The other two were black bears that were killed with the pistol fire.

There was one case where both .357 magnum and .44 magnum revolvers were used. The grizzly bear was killed.

In total, there were 8 defenses against black bears and 27 defenses against grizzly bears.

One pistol failure out of 35 cases translates to a 97% success rate for the use of handguns against bears.

Successful bear defenses with a pistol are probably under-reported, much like successful firearm defenses against criminals. If a predatory black bear is shot and runs off, there are strong incentives for the shooter not to report the incident. Incidents, where no human is injured, are seldom considered news. This creates a strong selection bias against successful pistol defenses against bears.

Predatory black bear attacks are the most common fatal black bear attacks in North America. Only 8 of the pistol defenses listed above are defenses against black bears or 23%. It is reasonable to believe there should be about twice that number. Black bear predatory attacks often give potential victims good opportunities to use a pistol effectively.

I have two reported instances of successful bear defenses with a .38 special revolver. One against a black bear, and one against a grizzly. I have not been able to verify either. I have found two more reported cases of the successful use of the 10 mm pistol, and one more for the .357 magnum, but have not been able to verify them.

Even in the age of the Internet, reports can become difficult to find after a few years. I recall an incident where an Alaskan State Trooper killed a grizzly bear with his duty pistol, while an associate with a 12 gauge shotgun did not fire. I have not been able to find that report. It may have been the 2013 incident where unarmed Thomas Puerta was killed and eaten. I am not certain.

If anyone has sources for that incident, or of others not recorded here, either successes or failures, please let us know.

Pistol defense failures against bears should be widely reported. When humans are injured by bears, it is news.

In this compilation of incidents, one was a failure. The .357 magnum was fired three times. The shooter was mauled after the first shot and after the second and third shots. It seems likely the shooter missed all three shots. It is the only bear defense with a pistol, that failed, that we have found.

One failure out of 35 incidents is better than a 97% success rate for pistol defenses against bears. Using a pistol to defend against bear attacks seems to be a viable option.

The often cited Efficacy of firearms for bear deterrence in Alaska by Tom S. Smith, Stephen Herrero, and others, included 37 instances of a handgun being present when a bear attacked a human. The instances collected were from 1883 to 2009. They recorded 6 failures to stop the attack out of the 37 instances. That is an 84% success rate. Pistol and ammunition technology have greatly improved since 1883.

The authors of the Efficacy of firearms have not released their data. There could be as many as six instances of overlap between the Efficacy of firearms data set and our collection, so a combination of the data is not useful unless the Effficacy of firearms data set is released. We cannot know how many of the six “failures” of the efficacy study might be because the handgun was never attempted to be used, was unable to be accessed because it was buried in a pack, or for other reasons.

All of the instances cited in this article can be verified independently.

©2018 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5TRfatjsf

I agree, the 10mm penetrates more than .45, but under real world conditions and using proper .45 ammo (not 185 grain), the .45 can absolutely do MOST of what a 10mm can.

Instances where the increased penetration of the 10mm was a 100% factor in the difference of the two rounds during an encounter would be extremely rare. Therefore, "yes to MOST" is the correct answer.

The 10mm is not some hammer of thor that people think it is. It's not as powerful as a .44 mag. It's not as powerful as a .41 mag.  Ballisticially it's more like a shallower penetrating .357 mag because it has similar energy to the .357, but less sectional density.

I still have and prefer a 10mm for my woods gun, but...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gtTEEm1-1A

moral of the story from what I got out of this data. If you shoot the thing it will die or run away. if not, you lose. Caliber doesn't seem to matter.

Some of you guys are just plain clueless as to what a .45 cal bullet can be capable of.

Example: A 255 grain hard cast flat nose that delivers 1300 fps and 957 ft lbs of energy - https://www.underwoodammo.com...

If a guy wants to drop down to 185 grain in .45 cal he can easily 'store buy' ammo that will deliver 1575 fps and 1019 ft lbs of energy - https://www.underwoodammo.com...

Uhhh.. those are .460 Rowland loads.  The discussion is about .45 ACP.   That’s like comparing .44 special to .44 mag

The penetration of the 10mm coupled with the sectional density advantage leads me to believe that it would do a better job of breaking a bone and continuing to break bone afterward, that is important in stopping a potentially lethal animal charge. Neither will bounce off, use what you want. If I was told that a grizzly was going to charge me in one minute and I had to choose between a six-shot .44, a .45 ACP semi, or a 10mm semi with an equal amount of rounds as the .45 ACP all loaded with "good" ammo, I would choose the 10mm most likely, double points if it is a fifteen shot Glock that weighs less than the other options. Again, even a 9mm with Gold Dots could drastically change the game for you, everything else is just icing on the cake. Shoot what you like.

Really the biggest advantage of 10mm is the greater magazine capacity.

While on paper the 10mm is better I don't think there will be a huge difference between a hot heavy 45 vs 10mm and I say that as a 10mm fan (with a 10mm avatar).

More like comparing 22LR and 223.  Same caliber, and way different.

.45 super would be better to compare. I can shoot it in my 1911s with minimal changes. Which I change regardless.

A 255 hard cast at 1075 is a controllable load that shoots great in my edc

1911 wise - About the only difference between the 45 Super and the Rowland is the compensator. Both have fairly strong brass and 'should' have a well supported chamber. The little stuff like springs and different radius FPS's are generally done on both platforms.

460 Rowland conversions are easily (and fairly inexpensively) done on many platforms now including Glock, S&W M&P, FN, 1911's, etc...

A guy with a gun properly set up for 460 Rowland can always 'down load' so he could get to 'real' 10mm power levels.

I have a Glock 20 and 21. I feel confident in the woods with either but the 20 is usually my choice.

I think a .45acp would just fine , here in Co..

I've carried my M629 3" barreled .44Mag for a while as my go to Woods Gun" at our family mountain home in Highlands North Carolina that borders the Nantahala National Forest. We have a rather pissy Black Bear that is constantly ripping our gutters/down spouts off, attempting to dig into the crawlspace; trying to get into our garage to get after our garbage cans, dropping deuces all around our house.... to try and show dominance. It isn't afraid of us/man nor our German Shepherds so I most definitely deem it as a "Problem Bear"... so I always carry. My M629-5 is usually stoked with hot 255grain Hard Cast Keith's in .44Special from Underwood and it's a hell-of-a round... but after shooting completely thru some thick pine trees during target practice up there recently with my CZ97B using Underwood's 255 Hard Cast Keith .45acp+Ps... I'm thinking I'm going going to just start carrying the CZ for the 10+1 capacity and much faster reloads. They pack more than plenty enough ass behind them to punch thru Smokey's pelt, shoulder blades and then again deep into the vitals due to it's hard cast construction, power, and flat nose Meplat design nature & characteristics... Look at what Alaskan fishing guide Phil Shoemaker did with his compact 3rd Gen Smith filled with Buffalo Bore's hard cast 9mm "Outdoorsman" loads. If that will punch 36 inches Plus into the ass of a pissed off Grizzly... then a hard cast .45acp+P is going to perform very similar if not a touch better due to the pill having 100 more grains of weight behind it compared to the 147gr 9mm...

10mm Hard Cast pills loaded by Underwood and Buffalo Bore are going to be more than adequate for Black Bears... So are their .45acp Hard Cast Kieth's in 255grain weight as well and even more so their .45Super options... If I were in Brownie territory though... It's absolutely Underwood's 305grain Hard Cast Keith's rated at 1325fps that clock a cunt hair over 1200fps out of my 3" Mountain back Packer. I'd be comfortable using them against Yeti! YMMV...

Look into the 460 rowland drop in barrel from Clark custom it is  a 45 with almost double the energy and fps.. 10mm loaded correctly with 15rds (g20) is hard to beat in a woods gun.

So, what happens to you when you have to shoot a bear with your pistol?  Depends on the person, I'm sure.

I know a guy who killed a black bear with a 1911 .45 acp.

He was very proud of himself.  I asked him about it.  He told me he walked up on the bear, it got up, scared the hell out of him, he pulled the 1911 and shot it.  I asked him how many times he shot it.  He said, "I emptied the first clip and loaded another one and emptied it, too."  Then I said, "No, how many times did you hit it?"  His reply, "I don't know, I just know I emptied the first clip and then reloaded and emptied the second clip."

I think I could almost see him beginning to sweat just remembering the incident.

I never shot one.  Saw a few while riding ATVs.  Some fairly close (they were already running away when I saw them) and some farther off.  I carried a 4" .357 Ruger with 158 grain soft points in it.  When I carried the Colt Combat Commander I carried 230 grain hardball in it.  Of course, the bear would have to catch me first.  As we used to say, if he didn't have me by the time I hit 2nd gear (Honda 350X) he wasn't going to catch me.

Anyone putting an RMR on their "woods gun"?  Or just relying on the iron sights out there under the trees/leaves in the low light conditions?

There are those who are  'loaded for bear,'  ... and then there are those who are merely 'bear food' waiting-to-happen.

Choose wisely.

What is your target?

Four legs or two?

If not already mentioned, try Underwood's 255grain Hard Cast .45acp+P... It's a warm "Keith" style pill with a large meplate and functions great from my 97B and drives deep! It's rated a 935fps but I think that may be a touch of a low ball fps rating.

for you guys that have to worry about 4 legged critters that wanna to eat you....why not just carry a 44 mag?

or do you feel the need for more than 6?

You could always drop in a 400 corbon barrel and get some Underwood penetrators.

This guy gets it. Energy is nothing more than mathematics. PERIOD. Is any one here aware that a 55 gr., 224" bullet travelling 3000 fps has about 50% more energy than the most potent 10mm load? Does that mean it kills as well as a 10mm? Unequivocally NO.

Let me try to put this into perspective...you think a 10mm is the end all, be all? It is the rough equivalent of the ancient 38 WCF (38-40) fired from a rifle. Said cartridge/caliber is GTG for game about the size of deer and hog.

Yes, penetration is important, but bullet diameter is of paramount importance.

In a word, yes.

I've used both for woods carry, but prefer 10mm.  10mm = higher velocity, greater energy, deeper penetration.  It also shoots pretty flat out to about 100 yards.

10mm is my favorite handgun cartridge.

Full house 44 magnums are very large handguns (especially with barrels long enough to mitigate some of the muzzle blast).  They are also difficult for people to master.

10mm semi-autos aren't as abusive, and are generally smaller / more likely to be carried / easier to carry.

To my thinking, your best chance is a first round hit and for me this is most easily accomplished with a semi-auto (especially something like a Dan Wesson 10mm Valor).

All "Man Card" jokes aside, I would much rather have 16 rounds of 10mm on tap from a lighter gun that is easier to shoot and put as many rounds as possible as quickly as possible on an advancing predator than 6 rounds of .44 magnum in a much heavier gun that takes more time and training to master. That is what led me to selecting a G20 stocked with Underwood as my woods gun; cheaper, lighter, higher capacity, less recoil, faster follow-up shots, and 10mm hard cast offers plenty of penetration.

That said...an old school S&W M29 is still on my list, because "reasons".

Energy doesnt really mean anything at handgun velocities.  Both calibers are capable of penetrating to the vitals on the largest of bears.  10mm gives you extra capacity so that's always a plus.  In a legit charge you wont have time to shoot them all anyhow though.  I'll take my 44 mag.

10mm ammo test

Take a look at the expansion and penetration data then compare it to the .45ACP data. is 16-rounds of 10mm better than 14 rounds of .45acp? Maybe.  Depends on what you want to do and careful ammo selection.

Deleted.

45ACP is no slouch

I have killed big midwestern deer with 230gr Gold-dot 45ACP handloads, 45SUPER handloads, and winchester ranger 230gr +p

all worked well

I was impressed with the large exit holes the Ranger +P made

I use .45 Super for my woods carry gun. All I did was install the Wilson combat shock buffer and 20 lb recoil spring in my Springfield operator and test fired a few different types of ammunition. Everything works fine and between the stronger recoil spring plus the shock buffer, I do not feel like I am destroying my pistol just from firing the occasional .45 super loads. I would probably go to a 25 pound hammer spring and a 22 pound recoil spring if I really wanted to shoot the .45 super all the time. My FNX 45 also eats the .45 super with no modifications at all, I just replace the factory recoil spring a little more often.

All that being said, I only occasionally shoot or carry the .45 super and normally I just carry my 230 grain HST's. If I really needed more power against larger predators, I have a 4.5" Ruger Redhawk in 44 Magnum that I can load with buffalo bore or my hot hand loads.

The Buffalo bore load is there.

Just remember if you compare the 10mm to .45 you need to remember that the test .45 had a 3.6" barrel.

Buffalo Bore 10mm 200 Gn non expanding flat nosed bullet at advertised 1200 FPS is there. If that is not an "appropriate" example of 10mm bear defense ammunition , I have to ask, what factory ammo is?

You're right I made an error in my post.

So true about the 460 Rowland the power and can do more then any 10mm. All it takes is a barrel swap and recoil guide.

OP for anyone that says get a wheel gun you can still keep the 45 caliber bullet take a look at 45 long colt round it has taken every North American game and guessing a lot in Africa also! I have been looking at that Ruger Redhawk in 45 LC/ 45ACP. I'd like to see one that can also use 460 Rowland.

Nope, my M629 "Mountain Back Packer" with 305grain "Keith" hard cast pills will penetrate any pelt, skull, shoulder, and spine of the biggest the America's has to offer and I've become damned good with mine. Anyone that thinks they are going to get off more than 3-4 rounds from a charging beast is really pushing the limit. I got off 4 shots with a charging hog out of the brush before she got to us, once! Anyways, .45ACP Hardcast, 10mmHardcast, and most certainly .44Special and .44Magnum Hardcast will more than do the job. Just get comfortable with what you carry, it's fast presentation, and putting into action/putting rounds in center mass... Below is what I've been carrying for the last 2 years with the aforementioned Underwood 305 grain pills... and it carries and presents as fluid and sheds a holster as fast as Alyssa Millano can shed a uterus lining when in-heat... with just a modiCUM of practice!

A 45 ACP or really any standard auto cartridge loaded with hard cast, will penetrate any living creature in the lower 48... or more.. reference dude who shot and killed an attacking griz with his 9mm in Alaska a couple years ago.

I tend to agree. But won’t a quality FMJ of the same bullet weight at the same velocity penetrate just as deep?