For those of you who were not in on the thread that started all of this, CHECK THIS OUT to get an idea about how this started.

I've never shot 600 yards before. As mentioned in the above post, I have shot 300 on several occasions and had excellent results (from just slightly over moa to slightly under moa) on each attempt. At the Black Rifle Convention, I shot at the 450 yard steel plate and hit the 1'x 1' black center every time.

So I felt like I could do well at 600 even though I had never tried. Knowing I never actually tried, I was somewhat nervous, but at the same time inspired. One of the ranges I go to is just about to open up a 600 yard line. It isn't actually open yet, but the mangers of the range have been VERY accommodating in the past. When I told them what was happening, they arranged to let me use it a little early for the test. Big thanks to Andy and his dad Larry at Bradford County Sporting Clays for their cooperation and support!

Also need to thank Tommy at Georgia Precision Shooter Supply and Naked80 for talking with me about ammo selection and shooting out that far. I love to shoot, AR15's especially, but have never had any long distance training or coaching. All my training has been close quarters shooting. All I know about long shots I've gathered from books and what I've heard from more experienced shooters like them. I appreciate their help.

On to the day. Despite Tommy's suggestion to get there earlier and avoid wind, we got there right around 10. Problem was, there was a clay match going on. This meant we couldn't use the 600 range till 1pm! We decided to got to the 600 yard line to see what I was up against.

I'll admit walking all the way down (ALL THE WAY, man it was FAR!!!) was daunting. Shooting so well at 300 yards probably had me a little over confident. 600 yards was a whole nother story. We walked back up and took out some rifles to see what it looked like through the scopes. That had my confidence back up a little. The 4x ACOG didnt make it seem quite so far. The 10x LRM3 on the SPR was very nice. After talking a bit we put a man size B27 target up, and a 1'x 1' steel plate.

Before getting on to the shooting, a little bit about the gun. I was using a preban Bushmaster flat top with their 14.5" M4 barrel. It's chrome lined, 1/9 twist. The upper/barrel easily has about 17,000+ rounds through it. It has been run through at least 3 full auto torture tests. But its still a good shooter! It has a newer style Vortex Flash suppressor. It has an ARMS #58mod SIR FF rail system and is topped with a Trijicon TA31 ACOG using a ARMS #19s mount. There is a JP single stage trigger that I had JP install for me. It breaks very clean at about 2 1/2 pounds. I took the Surefire M900 off and used a Harries bipod with a ARMS #32 throw lever and pod lock. I'm also using a Magpul M93 stock and Houge grip if anyone cares?

On to the shooting. I had only a limited supply of ammo, and wanted to try and use the steel to see where I was hitting. I started out with some Q3131a to give me the clue at where I was going to have to hold. With my TA31 zeroed 1" high at 100 yards as per Bartholomew_Roberts most excellent Big ACOG BDC Chart post, I was somewhat consistently hitting when I put the steel plate between the 500 and 600 yard cross hairs. For the heck of it, I tried shooting 10 rounds of this ammo at the B27 target. Results werent terrible, but not good either. I guess this is what they mean by MOM (minute of man)! 9 shots were on paper, but all over! One was off the target all together. Overall, the group was low. This was my first shot at this range on a target like this so I attribute that mostly to myself. I needed to hold higher. 6 shots were in about a 12" cluster in the lower abdomen area. One more shot was just slightly off to the left of the target area but still on paper. One shot was a pretty good shot in the left of the 8 ring. One shot was right on the chin.

At least I know I can hit something and that I wont be totally just wasting ammo and everyone's time. So I start using the better ammo. I started with the new production Black Hills 69gr ammo. Took about 5 shots to the steel to see where I was going to be hitting. With the 69 gr ammo I was still a little high on the bullet drop compensated reticle in the ACOG, but not too bad. On to paper.

I shot 2 different groups with this ammo. The first group was primarily high, would have looked much better on the target had I aimed a little lower... 1 shot was just off to the right of the target area by the elbow, 2 other shots were good hits, one in the high part of the 9 ring, one high on the 7 ring. Other 2 shots were just to the left of the head off the target area. This was not good and I needed to do better.

Next group with this same ammo was worse. One shot off to the right of the head, one good shot high on the 8 ring, one shot in the left of the 9 ring, two total misses.

I was feeling a little defeated. Groups were WAY bigger than I suspected. Lots of concentration, breathing, focus.. bla bla. Without much in the way of results I was fatigued. So we took a break, ate and let the barrel cool. Then I opened the Federal 69gr Gold Medal Match ammo. I wasnt quitting yet. Another 5 shots to the steel showed me I was hitting right on the 600 yard mark on my ACOG. So, off we go on the paper.

First 5 shots to paper did a lot to boost everyone's confidence. 2 shots in the 9 ring, one shot in the 8 ring, one shot above that just in the 7 ring, one shot just to the left of the 7 ring. The initial challenge called for consistently hitting a man size target at 600 yards and I finally did. My goal was to keep them all in the 7 ring and this had me on my way to that. In my book these are all good shots with the possible exception of the one outside the 7 ring. Crude measurement shows this group to be just over 11" from the centers of the two furthest shots. Just under 2moa.

So, with my confidence back up, I sent another 5 down range at a clean target. Wow, this was the best group of the day. Measuring just 7" from the center of the two shots furthest each other. Just a smidgen over moa! 4 of the 5 shots measure about 3 1/4 inches (about 1/2 moa)! One in the 10 ring, 3 more just to the left on the 9 ring and that 1 damn flier that opened the group up from 3" to 7", way off to the left just outside the 7 ring.

OK, I only have 5 more rounds of this ammo left, so I take shoot another group. While this was not the smallest group of the day, it was the best group on target. 4 shots in the 9 ring, one shot in the 8 ring. This group measures just slightly less than 9", or 1 1/2 moa. All inside the 7 ring and all good shots on a man size target.

Sad news is I was out of that ammo! I need to get some more and go back ASAP! I've got some pictures but I want to wait to post them until I get some good shots with the targets and a measuring tape. All I have here at my house is a broken plastic ruler!

John, (who is FL_AR15 here) was with me took most of the pictures and Andy who helps run that range (and who I think is a member here) were the only two who were really there to watch. Larry, the manager of the range was there for most of it as well (but he is not an AR15.com member!) Another guy from FDCC was there but he was off shooting his new shotgun and P220 to see most of this. If these two do not proove to be sufficient witnesses for nay sayers, I am EAGER to get out there with more of that ammo and do it again. I feel that because this was my first time shooting at that distance, I can only improve.  OK, sorry for the long post, I hope you all enjoy and don't call me a liar!

And FWIW, I shot the 20" SPR at 600 as well just because I had to! Hitting the 1'x1' steel plate was effortless. I let FLAR15 give it a go when we were packing it up. Once I told him where to hold the target in the cross hair, he hit 10 for 10 times, in what I would call somewhat rapid fire! What a breeze! I only had one target left but I shot a 4 shot group with this gun within 5 inches, 4 of the 5 shots were inside about 2 3/4"!!! Man, I got to get back out there and see what that thing can do!!!

OK, here's the pictures we took, not many, but hopefully enough to give you all a better idea of what happened.

This is what 600 yards looked like to us from the line
[img]www.fdcc.us/IM000385.JPG[/img]

Here is a picture taken from the target back to my truck. Yeah, tell me about it... what truck? I cant see squat!
[img]www.fdcc.us/IM000393.JPG[/img]

This is what the target looked like through the TA31, the target is just next to the reticle.
[img]www.fdcc.us/IM000388.JPG[/img]

This is what the target looked like through the 10x LRM3 on my SPR. Cool!!! The red stand to the left is the steel we used.
[img]www.fdcc.us/IM000389.JPG[/img]

Here is me shooting. The ground was a little wet and when someone suggested lying in the back of my truck, I thought the idea was too cool to pass on!
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p4fd962841ce87e737b99180a2f087cdb/fa59e0a0.jpg[/img]

A little closer look;
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p09ee55c2851a4e2f67cc358be5e6df73/fa59e0dc.jpg[/img]

Alan was trying to look for hits on the steel with my new SPRbine. MAn, I didnt even get a chance to shoot that rifle that day!
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p32f993008bf1de95ac2485093f6dc0e0/fa59e03d.jpg[/img]

This was some fierce shooting and some Fierce Grape Gatorade was in demand! BTW, Gatorade was created right here in Florida!
[img]www.fdcc.us/IM000390.JPG[/img]

Here is the first 10 shots with the Q3131a Is this what you call minute of man!?
[img]www.fdcc.us/IM000391.JPG[/img]

Here's my last shots with the Fed Gold Medal. While they were not the best group of the day, I think they were the best shots on target.
[img]www.fdcc.us/IM000394.JPG[/img]

John shooting the SPR with 77gr Black Hills reloads at the steel. Like I said man... effortless!
[img]www.fdcc.us/IM000395.JPG[/img]

Here's the first of the 69gr Gold Medal Match shots... I circled all the shots with a white paint pen. Measures 11 3/8" from shot to shot.
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pb28bc02423315827ad956f203ea6971e/fa59d33f.jpg[/img]

Second group with 69gr Gold Medal Match, and the best of the day. 5 shots measured 7" and 4 of them were inside 3 1/2"!
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/pd4ce19a06fceb9f7367174c190250cb1/fa59d345.jpg[/img]

Last group with the M4 with 69gr Federal Gold Medal, measuring 9 1/8" and the best group on target.
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p3ddc885e90f4d31f48ea78aa269ccf7b/fa59d337.jpg[/img]

Here's the 69gr Black Hills groups. Shots off the target but on paper ore circles in black.
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p11e56ec447cc9c1e029be5c808a9b96c/fa59de2f.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p899818176d92668f129ee7ce758a2f29/fa59ddce.jpg[/img]

And here is the SMOKIN four shot group with the SPR and 77gr Black Hills reloads measuring just 4 7/8"!
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid91/p9795b0eff1dd241aa46d8c51146a6dc4/fa59dd65.jpg[/img]

Excellent write-up and good shooting!

I'll be looking forward to the pics and more details on your SPR![:D]

I shoot 69gr SMK out of 16" carbines at the 500yrds line with Elcan or ACOG every year at the provinical service match, and I am competitive against those 20" rifles.  

I did some 600yrds two years ago with 1/7 16" M4 barrel but the vertical disperson is about 4 feet.  Maybe I just suck. lol.

Very good shooting at600yrds, NewAR guy!

What?! What?! You mean.....you hit a man size target consistantly at 600 yards! What! How can that be!? Its, its, its just impossible. Carbines cant do that. Er, People cant do that...er, uh, ummm......


Man, how I wish I could have made it. Would have liked to open the Dissi up and let her run at 600. We have to go back and do it again, and maybe really do some stuff with your SPR.

Great shooting, Neil.  And as usual, great reporting.  I'll have to give some of the Federal ammo a try from my RRA Varminter.

Great shooting / report [:D]

I'm not surprised the Fed GMM performed so well. It's been the most consistant performer in my .223 and .308 rifles.

Some rifles may shot better with black hills or Hornady. But all of my rifles will shot very well with Fed GMM

Neil,
Great writeup!  BTW are you going to try any of the heavy match rounds in your next test?  I'm thinking Black Hills 75 and/or 77gr OTM?

Great report as usual. I'd be interested in hearing your take on how well the ACOG BDC chart numbers (figured with a ballistics calculator) tracked with what you saw in actual practical use at that range.

I realize all of the different environmental factors mean it won't be a perfect match; but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

I did shoot the 77 gr Black Hills reloads at 600 with the SPR and the group I shot was FAN-friggin-TASTIC. 4 shots were 4 7/8" with three of them being 1 3/4!!! But like I said, I didnt shoot the 1/7 SPR lot and only 4 rounds for a grouping. Tommy also sent me 15 rounds of the 77rg NATO stuff. 5 I shot at steel and 5 more for a group. The 5 shot group was not as impressive at 7 3/4", but I am confident I can shave a ot off of that if I did not feel rushed to get off the range.

We shot probably 25 rounds or so of the 77gr blue box Black Hills on the 1' x 1' steel plate. Like I said, once we doped the scope, hitting the plate was literally [b][i][u]EFFORTLESS[/b][/i][/u]!!! I dont think FL_AR15 has ever shot a rifle like that, and certianly not at 600 yards. He was 10 for 10 in somewhat rapid fire (maybe one shot ever second?).

The reason I was rushed is their 600 yard line really isnt even open yet and there were other range members there pissed that I was getting to use it and they could not. While we were waiting for the Sporting Clay match to stop, one guy came up to me and insisted the range was closed and we would not be able to shoot on it. So I really just wanted to get this 14.5" barrel testing out of the way. My M4 barrel is a 1/9 and would not handle the 77 gr well out that far. And I didnt have a whole lot of time to test it just to see.

Bart, when that 600 yard range opens up for real, I will be glad to get out there and see how the BDC reticles line up with your calculations. Based on the results of the different ammo I was using, you're right, there is going to be a lot of variables. But man, the 69 gr Federals were spot on... sweet!

OK, I am home and have a tape measure, so Im going to go take some pictures. I'll be back soon to post them!

Another great report!
I have the exact same barrel configuration and it's good to know what it may be capable of, even though I may not be.

The biggest thing between many people and 600 yards is between their ears. [noclue]

From someone who has shot long ranges I can tell you thats some amazing shooting for a first time at 600 Neil.  The 77 grain Blue box you shot is the SMK and the NATO is the Nosler and the SMK is more accurate, so that was not a suprise to me.

So did you use more than one sand bag this time?  Did you use the bipod with the SPR or just sand bags up front?  

I will admit though after trying my 14.5 M4 at 300 using no support in an actual combat prone position with the mag as a monopod my groups get MUCH larger than a sand bagged shooting position.  Same with unsupported bipod on an SPR but not near as bad as an M4 with just the mag for support.

Dev, pics are up now, so you should be able to see I used the bi-pod up front and a sandbag under the stock.

It was a little funny, at one time I could not get a steady hold and I was wondering what the heck was going one... Turns out someone was using the truck to steady themselves so they could see the targets through one of the other scopes. It was hardly moving the truck, but through the scope I was bouncing all over!

How many shots did you guys do off hand?

Thanks

CRC

off hand... as in standing? None. All shots were taken from prone.

Yeah that is what I meant. Thanks

CRC

Damn fine shooting Neil

I'm glad to see someone separating truth from fiction.  I'm gonna be sure to link this thread the next time the statement comes up that a carbine can't reach out and touch someone.  ya hear this all ya bull-barreled twenty-inchers!

Nice range, those trees probably reduce wind to a non-factor on a calm day.

If the reticle in your ACOG wasn't glowing red maybe it would have been easier to make precise hits, if you get a chance to try again, use an NSN ACOG.

(By the way I shot a deer 30 seconds from the end of legal shooting hours at 175yds with my NSN ACOG, I was prone with my Harris bi-pod and ARMS mount.   The shot was within about a half inch of where I wanted to put it (right of the breast bone as the deer was facing me-  and the deer dropped dead in its tracks (that's just luck most often they run 35 yds or so even if you hit them in the heart.)

My reticle was glowing green or I wouldn't have been able to make the shot.  I was happy with the reticle.

The damage caused by the 50grain HPBT Match Blackhills bullet was minimal, (a mere pencil hole in the left lung). I wouldn't take them hunting again, I will use 75 grain TAP in the future- or a 62grain or heavier expanding bullet.

Good job, and good read.  Thanks for sharing.
Art in KY

Green, the glowing red donut had to be held way over the targets head and was not in the way what so ever. If you read the post you will see I was using the 600 yard cross hair in the center of the reticle.

I actually have a TAO1nsn and brought it along because I was considering using it... but I left it in the bag and used the TA31 when I saw the donut wasnt going to even be close to being in the way...

Hello Neil,
I guess no one is out right calling you a liar yet. I told you that you have a good rep here at ARF.com

I was there, and at first I was wondering if it could be done consistently at least. This was the first at 600 for me, and I wasn't even sure if a target could be seen that far let alone hit with a M4. So to say the least I was skeptical about the idea, but one thing is for sure, you can always learn something new if you are willing to.

Before the Federal 69 Gold Match took the cake with the M4, I thought it was almost hopeless to think it was going to work, but somehow was able to give some words of encouragement to Neil saying "you can do it. I have faith". Neil dug deep and KO the target with a pretty nice group compared to the previous attempts with the other ammo. The next group was even better. 1 shot hit the 10 ring while 3 others hit just left in the 9 ring. There was only one stray out left in the 7 that could have made a near perfect group with a 4x dot scope. After everything was said and done, I think it is safe to say that if you have the time to practice on it, 600 yards with a M4 is very realistic.

Neil, your SPR is absolutely a superb weapon. I could not believe my eyes when I was able to hit 10 for 10 at 600 yards. Granted the target was 1' x 1', but still a pretty good objective to complete considering that it was the first for me.

John

This is from the thread that started it all.



Seem to me, New-arguy did it, and is now back to talk about it....... I like friendly challenges, disagreements, competition, etc. But if you going to have the balls to call someone out, one should back it up.

Awesome post dude!

Thanks alot for all the time and energy you have spent sharing it on here.

Oh yeah, I am still waiting for pics of ColtCarbine and his out of spec rifle and sign.

Excellent post!! now if I can get my SPR out to a 600yd range.
   FREE

I know man!!!! I didnt get a chance to really shoot the SPR all that much, and thats the gun I have to shoot longer ranges. What little shooting I did do with it was phenominal for my experience. I was shooting great groups, but a few inches right. When I tried the 5 rounds of 77gr NATO pressure stuff, I tried for 5 head shots. If I would have made to propper adjustments and shifted the zero to the left a bit, I would have hit all 5 of them! 5 for 5 head shots at 600 yards! Man! I got to get out there and shoot the SPR at that range.

I have been in a great mood since Sunday because of this. But I wont get another chance to get to that range for at least a month. And I am not sure of the 600 yard line will even be open yet. I sure hope it is!

Great and fun post to read about Neil.  Now that we know it can (easily) be done with the right equipment and the right shooter- what is the next challenge...  

Night shooting without a light (illuminated reticle testing) ?
Night shooting with various SureFires and with/without reflective taped targets? (i.e. 6v vs 9v vs Turbohead...)
800yds....?

More fun for 2004!





GreenO how did you get a green TA01-NSN??

2004 is going to be a fun year indeed! [:D]

If I can find a way to get video on to the puter.....we'll really have some good stuff for everyone.

I know I'm coming in late on this one, but I'm just amazed at all the controversy over shooting a carbine at 600 yards!  
Anyone who actually had any experience with an AR Carbine should know that it's quite possible!

Hell, it's not at all impossible to shoot "minute of man" (I like that) with irons on a sandbag... at least at 500 yards anyway.

But oh well, some folks just gotta argue.

Ain't that the dying truth.

"I've never done it so it can't be done"
I believe this is how some people approach things.

If alot of shooters took a .22 rimfire out and shot a few hundred rounds at 200 yards their preceptions of ballistics might change.

Great shooting!
Unfortunately, if I shot my AR from a truck like that here in stupid NY they'd throw me in jail [:(]

The only reason new-arguy did it that way was because the range was not level shooting prone on the ground. There had to have been at least a two foot difference. Anyway, Florida is still a free state and better damn well stay that way.

LMAO - nuff said

Luck
Alac

BTW new-arguy, nice you put the rubber to the road. Respect your attitude on this -well done

Never done that, hafta try now.

When younger, we had a 4x8 plywood sheet we'd hang targets on at 100yds. Buddy had a old Webley .38, shot .38 S&W. End of a session he had a few rounds and thought we'd try to hit the board. Damned if he didnt hit it 4 straight times - we just listened for the "thud". Nextime we kept a box for the 100yd line. Never did that well again but we'd hit 3 outta 4 often.

For your ext trick, I would like to see a Palma course shot with a 14.5.

Luck
Alac

BTW new-arguy, cheers again

Hawkeye, I don't recall you having a dog in this fight.

new-arguy, I stand corrected, good shoot, great pics! you've changed my mind about you. I do apologize.

My only dog was that I knew it could be done and posted as such in the original thread, and I saw someone needlessly screaming bullshit on a very close friend of mine. You didnt think it could be done, and thats fine, but your attitude about it seemed a bit arrogant. I was supposed to be at the range with New-arguy to do the shoot, but my wife was very sick and I could not make it. I was looking at it as something fun to do, as I had no doubt it could be done. My post earlier was not meant to be malicious, and my apologies if it came across that way. I just know that had New-arguy NOT been able to do it, he would have posted as such just the same as he has posted that he did. Again, sorry if I came across a bit crass.

Heh, I don't even goto the "range" anymore when I want to get some long range shooting in.


What I do now, thanks to having a mil-dot scope, is take my target stand out with a set of calibration dots on it so that I can get easy to read mil values when viewed through the scope.

Hell, even placing a 8x14 piece of legal paper on the target stand is enough for me to range off of.   The last time I did this, my friend brought his GPS unit along to check my accuracy.   I put the target out at an unknown distance, drove back to the other side of this valley, got down to estimate my range and came up with a rough estimate of 500 yards.   I shot my 5 shot group, which had all 5 shots in an extreme spread of no more than 8 inches with 2 shots hitting my 4inch square aiming point.    After we were all done, he marks my shooting position as waypoint number 1 and once we drive to the target stand he marks it as waypoint number 2.    The output, get this, was .28 miles.   Doing the math on that, it winds up as 495 yards.   Even if the GPS unit was rounding up from .275 or down from .285, and accounting for any inaccuracy in the GPS unit, I likely wasn't off by much more than 10 yards give or take.


LOVE the mil-dot reticle.   Combine that with a Mildot Master slide rule and you got yourself one ABSO-FING-LUTELY fantastic setup.

I'm just about ready to write off going to the range for long range shooting practice, I got lots and LOTS of rolling foot hills around here where I can safely take the range out to 800+ yards if I wanted to.    Shooting at unknown ranges and practicing my skills in range estimation, that is getting to be a damn fun challenge.


Ofcourse it's nice to have a range with known distances for the purposes of establishing zero's and working to see if your trajectories for handloads are what they should be.    But damn, putting the mil-dots to use and actually having them work for you is just great.


I should mention, the reason I'm so stoked about this is because since getting my long range rifle I have only had 3-4 opportunities to take the rifle out and properly put it through it's paces and get to wring out the mil-dot while shooting for groups at longer ranges.


Can't wait to field a second mil-dot scope on my AR15s as a spotter's rifle role for my friends to use while I use the primary long range rifle.   That way we can call mil readings for the other shooter and make adjustments all that much easier.

Well that's big of ya Colt to admit when you're wrong (not alot of posters would have the balls to do it)!  Look at this thread as a good thing, maybe it'll stop the string of presuppositions that are interpreted as fact.  The lesson here:  KNOW before you post...

This is exactly why my post count is so low. I learned many many months ago that there is so much to learn about AR's that no matter what I think I may know, there is always something I don't know.

Hawkeye,
I am sorry to hear your wife is not feeling well. Maybe next time you can make it. Since I was down range checking targets last time, maybe you can take up the slack there. lol

FYI
For anyone that has never heard the sound of a bullet headed your way, it sounds like a loud snap followed quickly by a thud and the distant sound of a gun being fired.

I've been shot at.  I didn't hear the snap but heard a whoosh like air going by my ear then the thud.  In fact, I didn't even realize it was gunfire until the second shot.

DAMN!! thats very impressive I would have never belived it until I saw the pics.
Good Shooting!!
   FREE

[buttkick]

LOL!! I haven't seen that one.
    FREE

That is a lot closer than I would ever want to be. In fact, I was behind quite a bit of cover and still was nervous about it. I would have had a nervous break down if I was any closer. lol.

Thanks ARguy!


very cool!


It was expecially interesting to see what the TA31 and Leupold 10x looks like at 600 yards.

Thanks a bunch!

Well I had my back to the shooter.  I saw my partner dive for cover and I did the same, not knowing why until I heard the second report.  It wasn't until I reflected on the night's events that I reaffirmed my belief in God. *smile*

WOW! Someone on this board that will admit he was wrong AND apologize for it. I'm shocked.

Congrats new-arguy. I knew you would do it. You've made all of us in the FDCC very proud once again.

M4REAL

I failed to mention that in my earlier post. Stand up indeed.

"GreenO how did you get a green TA01-NSN??"

Its a standard black anodized acog (the reticle gloes yellow/green in low light) and at least to me it appears to glow totally green when it is nearly dark.  It was glowing green when I took the shot.