Hi there,

I've progressed on reloading to the point that I'm looking at annealing and possibly neck turning.  I had a couple of questions and hoped that some here would be able to offer some insights or opinions.

The big question is does annealing make a difference?  I think it does, but would welcome any anecdotal or empirical information.  I understand it should save brass and probably lessen run out.

If you anneal, what do you use and how happy are you with it?  I'm looking at the annealeez because I can't justify $1500 on an AMP, especially when I don't know the real benefits myself yet.  I know the adage, "buy once, cry once" but in this case, I'm just not ready for that.  Are there others that people use and like?

Neck turning - Does this make a difference?  I believe that it helps create uniform neck tension, correct?  Annealing is probably not for every reloader, but am I just a whole bunch of crazy to want to turn necks too?  Again, same questions as above?  What do you use and is there any data to support a position?

Finally, where do you anneal and/or neck turn in the process?  Below is a rough approximation of my current steps

1) inspect and deprime brass
2) lube and resize case
3) trim case
4) wet tumble case
5) rinse and dry
6) prime case
7) measure powder
8) seat bullet

Always appreciate the responses.  Thanks in advance.

What kind of results are you getting now, both on target and over the chrono?

What powder measure/thrower are you using?

Are you uniforming primer pockets?

I assume you're already using premium brass, bullets, and primers.

Yes, I anneal and turn necks, I think both help, but neither is going to take a 1 MOA rifle and make it into a .1 MOA rifle...Both can help, both are quite a bit of work..each person has to decide if its worth the time and energy used...I made a thread on my methods...might give you some ideas, considerations....

A thread that shows my process....
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/My-long-range-reloading-process-/10-8957/

Assuming that you've got a decent rifle and decent brass where the primer pocket is better than reasonably centered I would not worry about turning neck unless you're a bench rest competitor.

I tumble, size and deprime, check length, load and fire. Repeat except only neck size, repeat until brass shows sign of a brittle neck.

I only really shoot for groups at 300 yards and I'm getting 1 1/16" to 1 1/4" groups. 223 remington, 6mm remington, 358 norma magnum.

There's another ongoing thread over in the standard reloading forum about this, so my response may come across as a bit repetitive.

For context I'm an F-Class (F-T/R specifically) shooter. High Master at Mid-Range, and Master at LR. My discipline shoots 20 rounds for score with a minimum ~7 second delay between shots, not 5-10 for groups in the span of 20 seconds (LR BR). We borrow a lot of the same practices from the BR folks (they're basically identical), but the 'games' are very different.

Does an AMP (or any kind of consistent annealing) do anything to reduce group size? I'd say that's a difficult question to answer; I can definitively tell you that it will not make a drastic difference, and that's using the best/most expensive annealer out there.

The 'drastic' differences you'll see will come on the reloading bench. You will see your shoulder bumps get more consistent, you won't have to adjust your dies as brass ages, and your seating force will be more consistent between pieces of brass. i.e. you can actually measure a reduction in your shoulder bump ES across a batch of cases, and assuming you have a force measuring arbor, you can measure more consistent bullet seating.

The same could be said for neck turning. I have a 21st century powered lathe and turn all my 308 Palma brass to .014". You do feel a difference in seating pressure consistency, but I can't definitively show a correlation on target.

I believe the above improvements on the bench do translate into consistency improvements on target, however they're going to be small. If you forced me to put a number to it, and all things being equal (they're never equal), I'd guess you'd see a ~2-5% improvement on score at 1,000 if someone were to conduct a viable test. The problem with being able to conduct a real test though is you're dealing with a number of more influential variables that are always changing (wind, barrel condition, bullet/primer/powder lots, your ability to tune etc.).

Here's kind of where I settled: I can't definitively prove any of this with data, but I can tangibly feel & see a lot of this stuff on the bench, the top shooters in my discipline are all doing it, and the theory behind it is sound. That tells me there's merit to it, and it's why I choose to continue doing it. Is any of this stuff going to net me my LR HM while shooting F-T/R, probably not...but it's not going to hurt, and every time I shoot a 9 thats a mm away from being a 10, I won't be wondering 'what if'.

As far as where in the process do you anneal, my process goes like this:

Deprime
Wet tumble ~10-15 mins
Walnut tumble 2-3hrs to dry cases out.
AMP anneal
Lube
Resize
Walnut Tumble 2-3 hrs
Giraud trim
Prime cases
Lube necks w/ Imperial graphite lube
Charge w/ powder
Seat
Box

As far as when to neck turn, I think you can do it on new or fired brass. It doesn't really matter all that much. If you're going to be turning into the shoulder, you'd probably want to turn fired brass (so you can bump it consistently), and it needs to be very clean inside the necks.

Edit: Oh, and neck turning isn't necessarily a one time thing either. If/when you get a neck turner, turn some cases and go get 3-4x firings on them. Then size them down and mandrel back up to put on the turner. I'd bet money you remove some brass the 2nd time you try to turn them.

Edit2: I have zero experience with annealers outside of an AMP; honestly I'd be hesitant to use them because I'd be concerned I couldn't get the consistency right. I'll also tell you that Lou Murdica & Speedy Gonzales will tell you to use an AMP or don't anneal at all. That said, lots of guys were using Benchsources and the like before the AMP came out....so it's hard to say.

I use the Benchsource annealer. Works great and the brass is lasting well. It seems to add consistency to the neck tension. I anneal every other loading. As far as neck turning, I haven't done a round since I left bench rest years ago. In my opinion, IF you are using good brass, the only benefit of turning would be if you had the chamber cut for a small neck.

Make sure your case inspection routine includes checking the web on the inside for incipient case head separation.  Annealing brass might lead you to inadvertently cycling it more than you really should.  I use a length of wire that I put a bend on the end, to drag the inside of the web to see if it catches on a groove being formed.  I follow this inspection step with all of my belted magnum cases, as they seem more likely to stretch at the web when repeatedly subjected to full length resizing.  This can also become an issue with rounds that are consistently used in semi autos and always full length resized.

I agree. I'm at about the same place with comments. I don't loose sleep if I don't anneal. Seating forces tell me if I need to cull a round, and sighters in MR or LR matches help correct small batch to batch issues.
At 600, I don't see much of an issue, but at 1000 any processing slop will show.

Well said.

Just taking the last reply to offer my thanks to everybody who has posted here.  I'm completely self-taught on reloading thus far and live in NJ where long ranges and this lifestyle is less prevalent.

My particular thanks to AKSnowrider and SuperDutyMikeMC who offered thoughtful and fulsome responses.  And to Strat81 for reminding me about pocket primers.  Some of the responses opened up new questions around mandrels and bushing dies: I recently bought the sinclair expander die and 21st century expanders but I have not played with a bushing die.  Should I get that and are there resources on how to create consistent neck tension?

I'm not sure I'm any closer to a decision on annealing and neck turning, but without a doubt have more information to consider than I did previously.  Still not prepared to drop $1500 on an AMP.

Here's some things I know:
- I'm mostly stuck to 300yds at a local range although this coming year, I'll be hitting a 600yd more often.  1000yds just doesn't really exist nearby and the 600yd is 90 minutes away.
- I know I'm still working on doing my part by becoming a better shooter.  I shoot MOA but only occasionally do I get to 1/2 MOA which I know my rifle is more than capable of doing all the time.  My precision rifle is patient with me.
- I have a bias towards having shiny cases.  Irrational I know, but if I'm going to all the trouble to make them accurate, I'd like them to look awesome too.
- I want to spend 24 hours a day doing this stuff....

Thanks again - will take any other input and appreciate everyone sharing the knowledge.

Should you get a bushing die? Yes - Bushing dies are very very nice to have, however they're going to accomplish the same thing you're doing with the 21st century expander mandrels (assuming both are setup correctly). I'm partial to Whidden FL bushing dies, but they all pretty much do the same thing. The one big benefit a bushing die will offer you (especially if you aren't annealing) is you won't be working the necks near as much as a FL/mandrel operation.  Will you see a difference on target? Probably not a big one. The big benefit is being able to tune neck tension to what the load likes.

As far as 300 yards, you can have a lot of fun at that distance, and depending on the target size it can be a LOT more difficult than you'd expect.  Get some 300 yard F-Class targets and try to shoot 20 rounds for score on those things; it'll make 300 yards challenging (shoot your sighters up in the top left 7 ring to avoid screwing up the x-ring, then 'go for record' on the x-ring face for 20 rds and count those that fall out).

A word of caution about 'shiny caes'. I like them too, so I get it. That said, be wary of your wet tumbler. That thing WILL peen your case mouths, and will cause the case mouth to roll over ever so slightly, resulting in greater/inconsistent neck tension. You'll notice in my process I listed in my last post, I said 10-15 minutes of time in the wet tumbler. I strictly adhere to that these days, because I've had cases damaged in there. It's also going to remove carbon from your necks, so you'll need to reapply/lube again in some form. 10-15 in the wet tumbler, and drying in a walnut tumbler get me stupid bright/shiny/clean brass, and it doesn't seem to damage the case mouths.

If you're trying to 'improve' your accuracy & consistency, let me just give you the answers to the test now.


Improvements on the bench are your 'fine adjustment'. There's no piece of reloading equipment that is going to make drastic differences in your results on target (they may make things monumentally easier on the bench though). You'll never prove this, but I STRONGLY suspect most match winners would have the same results if they'd done everything on the bench using all Lee gear.

What made the biggest improvements for me has always been the rifle, and not just a new barrel either (obviously the biggest help). I started in F-Class shooting Savages and rebarreled 700s. The 700s shot better than the Savages because the 700s had triggers that could get down in the 2oz ranges, and the bolts were smoother; both actions had bartleins on them. I then progressed into customs, and now I've got two Pandas that I shoot better than the 700s. I assume that's because of the bolt being so smooth it doesn't disturb the rifles position, and my gun handling being better on their stocks (McMillan XITs, vs. McMillan A5s on 700s).

Gun handling makes a HUGE difference in your group, probably more than you realize. Stock fit is critical, and making sure your rifle is setup in the bags appropriately. Lots of vertical dispersion can come from how you're handling the rifle.

This really goes hand in hand with the rifle, but do yourself a huge favor and just shoot the appropriately weighted Bergers/Sierras (with the edge going to Bergers). You will spend so much more money chasing your tail trying to 'save money' by shooting Hornadys & Noslers etc. I'm not saying non-berger bullets can't shoot accurately, because they 100% can, however the level of consistency from Berger intra-lot is significantly higher. They will all vary between lots, so buy in bulk.

Optics - This made a bigger difference than I'd of expected. That whole 'aim small, miss small' thing is absolutely true. 27-32x optics can be shot accurately, but it's a whole lot easier to shoot tight groups at LR & MR distances with 1/8th MOA and 55-60 power.

Edit: This goes hand in hand with the 'shoot bergers/sierras' thing, but I had an interesting experiment this weekend. I was 'fire forming' new Lapua Palma .308 brass in a small club match in preparation for the LA state match next month. I didn't have any expectations of being competitive, so I was shooting some cheaper 175 SMKs with shooters world powder; this isn't exactly a combo that would be considered competitive. I knew this combo shot well, but still it's not going to hang with 200/210/215gr loads.

First match of the day, I bang out a clean (200 - i.e. perfect score) and I'm in the lead against a couple really good TR shooters.  Match 2/3 the winds start to pick up, and you can start to see how much of an advantage those bullets (and their weight/BC) offer. I'd shoot my match and then be behind the spotter scoring while they shot. They could be sloppier with their wind calls, and they were still keeping high X-counts. That wasn't the case at all for me; these were switchy ~5-12mph winds, and I was using every bit of that 10 ring.

Now, had I been shooting my usual 200.20x Bergers, the story would have been very very different. They just offer you so much more forgiveness it's not even funny.

Everything can be accurate/consistent at 100, pretty much the same at 300, but at 600 yards and beyond (especially beyond), you'll see some big differences.

Edit2: You really shoot look to see if you've got any competitions around you. I'm partial to F-Class (look for High Power or Palma matches), but PRS is another option. Getting into the competitive world is the absolute fastest way to grow your skills in your situation. Everyone is going to be friendly/helpful/non judgmental. You'll learn more in your first 2-3 matches than you would in 2 years of doing this on your own. Seriously.

I really appreciate the time and input and take it to heart.

I'm pretty tall (6'5") and I've been thinking about the fit of the rifle to me a lot, but don't know how to go about adjusting length of pull to make a difference.  I imagine that I need to extend my stock but haven't done so yet.  Is there a method that is not trial and error that you can recommend? I agree on gun handling and recently have spent time focusing on removing cant on the bipod that may show up after shooting a few rounds.  Ultimately, focusing on becoming a better shooter is the most important thing...

For optics, I ended up with a Z-Comp and am pretty happy with it.  Not an f-class guy so am very happy with mrad over moa.  If I were to do again (and I probably will), I'll be looking at a 7-35 though as I get older and look to go longer distances 1k yds +.

For bullets, I've been pretty happy with 140gr ELD-match and plan to continue through the life of this barrel.  Are Bergers that much better? I think it's hard to make a definitive case on that and in the end, they can't be that much more expensive anyway.  Still, when a new barrel comes on, I will reevaluate bullets at that time.  And yes bulk - I picked up a thousand last time.

Thanks.

I'm right there with you on stock fit. I'm 6'4" and you'd think that I'd want my stocks longer, but I shoot better with a relatively short LOP. My XITs are setup with a 13.5" LOP, and I've got a RAD 2A recoil absorber that extends it maybe an inch? Point being that it's not always intuitive.

I'm not one of those guys that thinks everyone needs to be doing what I'm doing, so glad mils is working out for you. Zeiss makes great optics.

Regarding the Hornady's, they're accurate bullets no doubt. I've been lured into running them because of the price and the accuracy I've gotten in short strings. That said, I'm up to seeing blowup #4 on them in person (where it's nowhere near 300k RPM), so I don't recommend them, and that's a real common theme with the folks I shoot with. Conversely Rob (the mod of these forums, and a higher level PRS shooter) probably runs them damn near exclusively with great results.  Probably something environmental, and probably something to do with our given applications.

I will say if you look at F-Class and Benchrest equipment lists (the two more popular disciplines that rely heavier on mechanical accuracy) you'll see a heavy preponderance of Berger bullets (if they're shooting factory), with some occasional Sierras...but you won't see many other makers factory bullets.

Good luck to ya!

I thought long and hard about getting into annealing.  I decided against it.  in my bolt actions i neck size only and try not to work the brass too much.  Sure the necks get brittle and eventually crack but not until 15 reloads at least.  I’d rather the neck go than the head.  i will replace any premature failures and when the whole lot reaches 20 reloads successfully i retire it all and start fresh.  

I decided against neck turning as well.  If I had any custom barrels it might be worth it but in your average factory chamber i doubt it’d be worth the added effort.

Visiting this thread that I started some time ago to give an update since I received some very different but universally helpful advice.  

I think I've made every mistake in the book because I have been completely self taught with no mentor to help me avoid pitfalls.  The nice thing is that I've gotten a buddy started and he'll hopefully benefit from my mistakes.


1 - I had never thought about playing with the pocket primers.  But this thread convinced me to give it another look and purchased the Lyman case prep too which I have loved.  It's another step, but I think the chamfer and deburr has helped a bit on neck tension and the pocket uniforming has added to the consistency of the process.
2 - annealing - I went cheap with the annealeez and have been very happy with it thus far.  Just getting the brass a bit softer after a couple of reloads has made a huge difference.  It's not hard to set up and goes relatively fast.
3 - bushing die.  This has been perhaps the biggest difference.  The die gives me so much more control and provides more consistent neck tension.  Combined with the above two points, I think this has made an overall difference in the shooting.  Most of my groups are sub moa at 100yds, but not by much.  I just had a .419" with a standard deviation of 6.8 fps on a 5 shot group, so I know it's making a difference.  All of my other test loads were around a .5 or with a deviation in single digits.
4 - neck turning.  Have fiddled with it, but put it down for a while.  It's interesting but I'm not ready go all in on it quite yet.  

Thanks again for the advice and input.

I anneal and can feel the difference in seating consistency.

The two most satisfying but unverified impacts were a wet tumbler and a FX-120I with auto trickler. They will make you smile.

Totally agree on the wet tumbler.  Haven't gone that deep on the auto trickler yet!