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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:13:40 AM EDT
[#1]
6.8, go check out 68 forums.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:35:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.8, go check out 68 forums. Other than emptying my wallet faster and being harder to find, I don't see any significant difference between 7.62x39 and 6.8mm on paper. It's a ~120gr projectile going at ~2500 fps either way. I want to stick with more common cartridges. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:39:35 AM EDT
[#3]
At 300 yards, i'd say 5.56 is still more than sufficient really.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:40:48 AM EDT
[#4]
If you're already set up with ammo, mags, etc, why not just change your optic for the 300m max range you're now considering? A 16" civilian M4-style rifle is certainly capable out to 300m.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:45:55 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Other than emptying my wallet faster and being harder to find, I don't see any significant difference between 7.62x39 and 6.8mm on paper. It's a ~120gr projectile going at ~2500 fps either way. I want to stick with more common cartridges. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
6.8, go check out 68 forums. Other than emptying my wallet faster and being harder to find, I don't see any significant difference between 7.62x39 and 6.8mm on paper. It's a ~120gr projectile going at ~2500 fps either way. I want to stick with more common cartridges. I wouldn't say 7.62x39 is common, while its readily available there may be that point where current law ban it. Plus 7.62x39 is 300 BLK. for SHTF id do a 6.8/556/300 BLK combo and reloading. Making 6.8 your first line than 556 than 300 BLK |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:08:28 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Several months ago I moved from Massachusetts to Texas, and I'm looking to replace my 'shtf' rifle. Distances down here are a lot longer than they were in MA, and things aren't as heavily wooded for the most part. At what distances does 308 become a better choice than 5.56? Is 7.62x39 worth considering? From what I've seen, I'm thinking the maximum range I need to consider is 300 yards. Beyond that I don't have the skill to hit shit anyways. Currently I have a 16" AR-15 in 5.56mm with an aimpoint micro on top of it. I'm considering either: - Replacing the upper with a 20" 5.56mm version - Replacing the upper with a 7.62x39 version in either 16" or 20" - Replacing the entire gun with an AR-10 EDIT: I should have mentioned I want to stick with the AR platform and with a common cartridge. I'm not interested in a SCAR, AK, or wundergun in 6.5mm, 6.8mm, 5.7mm, 300 Blackout, or 7.5mm Zombie. 7.62x39 is best in an AK, so if you aren't going to consider the AK I would not consider the round. This is primarily due to magazines and the shape of the cartridge. I love the round for several reasons, one of them being that it is cheaper to shoot than my 9mm. When available, I might consider the new Rock Rivers gun that takes AK magazines and have been considering the new version of the SIG 556R, but I'll probably just stick with my AKs for shooting this round. Inside of 300 yards the 5.56 is just fine. I don't think you gain much by going to the trouble of replacing your 16" upper with a 20" upper. The gun and ammo are light weight so if you are doing any walking that is important. And honestly your optic is fine for that distance as well, though if you are in doubt, get a magnifier for the aimpoint or get an ACOG. A SR25 pattern gun in .308 would be great to have, but I don't think you should get rid of your ar15 for it. The gun and ammo are significantly heavier. I don't really put 308 in the same class as 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. They are intermediate rounds while the 308 is a full fledged rifle round. My vote would be for you to keep your AR15 and buy a SR25 pattern gun. Now you have two. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:15:28 AM EDT
[#7]
Again, go to 68 forums, there is a vast difference.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:27:01 AM EDT
[#8]
keep the rifle as it is and start using some MK262/5.56mm 77gr. OTM as your SHTF rounds. Consider adding a 3X magnifer to your rifle.
Welcome to Texas - remember to register to vote! |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:18:18 AM EDT
[#9]
5.56
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:20:22 AM EDT
[#10]
I think I'd agree with avoiding the 7.62x39 in the AR. Works great in an AK and Mini-30 tho. Seems that the suggestion for the 77gr 5.56 appears to be solid. Going with a 20" barrel would help velocities and accuracy.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:48:10 AM EDT
[#11]
I'm going to to replace the barrel either way. I currently have a no-flashhider/no-bayonet Massachusetts barrel. I like my fixed stock ( ACE entry length ), but I want a free-state barrel.
I'll likely be replacing the entire upper and sending the old ones (plus pre-94 mags) to a friend of mine in MA who just got his license. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:07:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Several months ago I moved from Massachusetts to Texas, and I'm looking to replace my 'shtf' rifle. Distances down here are a lot longer than they were in MA, and things aren't as heavily wooded for the most part. At what distances does 308 become a better choice than 5.56? Is 7.62x39 worth considering? From what I've seen, I'm thinking the maximum range I need to consider is 300 yards. Beyond that I don't have the skill to hit shit anyways. Currently I have a 16" AR-15 in 5.56mm with an aimpoint micro on top of it. I'm considering either: - Replacing the upper with a 20" 5.56mm version - Replacing the upper with a 7.62x39 version in either 16" or 20" - Replacing the entire gun with an AR-10 EDIT: I should have mentioned I want to stick with the AR platform and with a common cartridge. I'm not interested in a SCAR, AK, or wundergun in 6.5mm, 6.8mm, 5.7mm, 300 Blackout, or 7.5mm Zombie. If that is the case there is no need to do anything. A 16" AR is more than adequate enough to make good hits on targets at 300meters - a 20" will only give you more length and weight to worry about. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:09:10 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I'd agree with avoiding the 7.62x39 in the AR. Works great in an AK and Mini-30 tho. Seems that the suggestion for the 77gr 5.56 appears to be solid. Going with a 20" barrel would help velocities and accuracy. Not necessarily, especially if one is using optics. I'd also suggest the 75gr Hornady OTM over the 77gr SMK. The SMK has a slight edge on accuracy (nothing you'll notice at 300M) but has better (and more consistent) terminal performance. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:14:00 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
, I don't see any significant difference between 7.62x39 and 6.8mm on paper. It's a ~120gr projectile going at ~2500 fps either way. . Then you're not looking at any data. the 6.8 outclasses the 7.62x39 by several hundred fps (find a 120gr 7.62x39 load that runs 2600-2500fps they are usually in the 2200 to 2300fps range). the 6.8 also has better ballistic coefficients, far superior in terminal performance, and unlike the 7.62x39 feeds incredibly reliable in the AR platform. The 6.8 from a 16" WILL fragment out to 500M with 110gr OTMs and VMAX rounds. The only real downside is cost if you don't reload. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:11:18 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.56 maybe get an acog? good easy out to 500yds and can id targets better than a red dot |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:14:49 AM EDT
[#16]
Since you already have the 5.56 ARs, no reason to switch. As others have said out to 300 yards, you're gtg. Only reason to switch to a 7.62x39 would be if you'd be shooting through heavy brush that would deflect the 5.56. 5.56 is, I believe, a much flatter shooter than the 7.62x39 at 300 yards.
An 18" or 20" barrel would give you better velocities than the 16", making it better for the longer range. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:21:08 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Several months ago I moved from Massachusetts to Texas, and I'm looking to replace my 'shtf' rifle. Distances down here are a lot longer than they were in MA, and things aren't as heavily wooded for the most part. At what distances does 308 become a better choice than 5.56? Is 7.62x39 worth considering? From what I've seen, I'm thinking the maximum range I need to consider is 300 yards. Beyond that I don't have the skill to hit shit anyways. Currently I have a 16" AR-15 in 5.56mm with an aimpoint micro on top of it. I'm considering either: - Replacing the upper with a 20" 5.56mm version - Replacing the upper with a 7.62x39 version in either 16" or 20" - Replacing the entire gun with an AR-10 EDIT: I should have mentioned I want to stick with the AR platform and with a common cartridge. I'm not interested in a SCAR, AK, or wundergun in 6.5mm, 6.8mm, 5.7mm, 300 Blackout, or 7.5mm Zombie. 5.56 is fine out to 300. What is the current upper/lower you have? Why do you just want to get a new upper and not a complete rifle? |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:43:48 AM EDT
[#18]
.223 / 5.56.
Effective on any living target in North America within reasonable ranges and with proper shot placement. 300 yds./meters is well within the limits of .223 / 5.56 for self defense. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:07:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going to to replace the barrel either way. I currently have a no-flashhider/no-bayonet Massachusetts barrel. I like my fixed stock ( ACE entry length ), but I want a free-state barrel. I'll likely be replacing the entire upper and sending the old ones (plus pre-94 mags) to a friend of mine in MA who just got his license. Glad you made it to a free state. If you are dead set on getting a new upper, my recommendation is going to be a BCM cold hammer forged barrel 16" mid length gas system with a 13" Troy handguard. Because that is what I have a like it the best. ;) 
Pic because this thread feels like it needs it. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:43:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't say 7.62x39 is common, while its readily available there may be that point where current law ban it. Plus 7.62x39 is 300 BLK. for SHTF id do a 6.86.5 Grendel /556/300 BLK combo and reloading. Making 6.8 6.5 Grendel your first line than 556 than 300 BLK Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
6.8, go check out 68 forums. Other than emptying my wallet faster and being harder to find, I don't see any significant difference between 7.62x39 and 6.8mm on paper. It's a ~120gr projectile going at ~2500 fps either way. I want to stick with more common cartridges. I wouldn't say 7.62x39 is common, while its readily available there may be that point where current law ban it. Plus 7.62x39 is 300 BLK. for SHTF id do a 6.86.5 Grendel /556/300 BLK combo and reloading. Making 6.8 6.5 Grendel your first line than 556 than 300 BLK Now we're talking some capability. 
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Posted: 4/23/2014 12:36:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Keep the carbine length barrel.
Keep the 5.56 Maybe Buy another optic: ACOG as suggested. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 1:02:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
7.62x39 is best in an AK, so if you aren't going to consider the AK I would not consider the round. This is primarily due to magazines and the shape of the cartridge. I love the round for several reasons, one of them being that it is cheaper to shoot than my 9mm. When available, I might consider the new Rock Rivers gun that takes AK magazines and have been considering the new version of the SIG 556R, but I'll probably just stick with my AKs for shooting this round. Inside of 300 yards the 5.56 is just fine. I don't think you gain much by going to the trouble of replacing your 16" upper with a 20" upper. The gun and ammo are light weight so if you are doing any walking that is important. And honestly your optic is fine for that distance as well, though if you are in doubt, get a magnifier for the aimpoint or get an ACOG. A SR25 pattern gun in .308 would be great to have, but I don't think you should get rid of your ar15 for it. The gun and ammo are significantly heavier. I don't really put 308 in the same class as 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. They are intermediate rounds while the 308 is a full fledged rifle round. My vote would be for you to keep your AR15 and buy a SR25 pattern gun. Now you have two. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Several months ago I moved from Massachusetts to Texas, and I'm looking to replace my 'shtf' rifle. Distances down here are a lot longer than they were in MA, and things aren't as heavily wooded for the most part. At what distances does 308 become a better choice than 5.56? Is 7.62x39 worth considering? From what I've seen, I'm thinking the maximum range I need to consider is 300 yards. Beyond that I don't have the skill to hit shit anyways. Currently I have a 16" AR-15 in 5.56mm with an aimpoint micro on top of it. I'm considering either: - Replacing the upper with a 20" 5.56mm version - Replacing the upper with a 7.62x39 version in either 16" or 20" - Replacing the entire gun with an AR-10 EDIT: I should have mentioned I want to stick with the AR platform and with a common cartridge. I'm not interested in a SCAR, AK, or wundergun in 6.5mm, 6.8mm, 5.7mm, 300 Blackout, or 7.5mm Zombie. 7.62x39 is best in an AK, so if you aren't going to consider the AK I would not consider the round. This is primarily due to magazines and the shape of the cartridge. I love the round for several reasons, one of them being that it is cheaper to shoot than my 9mm. When available, I might consider the new Rock Rivers gun that takes AK magazines and have been considering the new version of the SIG 556R, but I'll probably just stick with my AKs for shooting this round. Inside of 300 yards the 5.56 is just fine. I don't think you gain much by going to the trouble of replacing your 16" upper with a 20" upper. The gun and ammo are light weight so if you are doing any walking that is important. And honestly your optic is fine for that distance as well, though if you are in doubt, get a magnifier for the aimpoint or get an ACOG. A SR25 pattern gun in .308 would be great to have, but I don't think you should get rid of your ar15 for it. The gun and ammo are significantly heavier. I don't really put 308 in the same class as 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. They are intermediate rounds while the 308 is a full fledged rifle round. My vote would be for you to keep your AR15 and buy a SR25 pattern gun. Now you have two. Hard to argue with these suggestions. Spot on. 
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Posted: 4/23/2014 1:06:48 PM EDT
[#23]
My.02 cents based on personal experience.
I have a PWS MK114. It has a 14.5 in barrel with a pinned muzzle brake to make it legal. I have shot it out to 650 yards with 75 gr Hornady TAP from the prone position with a 10x scope. My recommendation is to upgrade to a better scope and use 75 grain quality ammo. If you are interested in a illuminated1-4x variable scope that's good to about 450 yards I would recommend a Vortex Viper PST 1- 4x scope. Here is a pic with the 2.5 - 10 x scope setup. 
and one with the 1-4x setup. Mine is in the back. My friends rifle in the front is an 5.56 LMT with an ACOG 
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Posted: 4/23/2014 1:12:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going to to replace the barrel either way. I currently have a no-flashhider/no-bayonet Massachusetts barrel. I like my fixed stock ( ACE entry length ), but I want a free-state barrel. I'll likely be replacing the entire upper and sending the old ones (plus pre-94 mags) to a friend of mine in MA who just got his license. You can get the barrel threaded (by ADCO) for a flash hider...or a suppressor!
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Posted: 4/23/2014 1:15:51 PM EDT
[#25]
I agree with many above: There's no need to do anything.
If EVERYTHING else is in order, it can be fun and even a little useful to expand. My first choice (to EXPAND options, not trade your 5.56) would be .308 for perimeter security, with appropriate glass. An AK would be good to own for two reasons: 1. Familiarization with the "platform;" 2. Versatility if you find a stash of ammo after SHTF. In terms of efficiency, there's nothing better than a reliable 16in AR in 5.56. Personally, in your shoes, my next step would be ANOTHER 16in AR in 5.56, set up with an ACOG, maybe a more accurate setup than just a blaster (SS barrel, crisp refined trigger) along with ammo/mags. But as I say, if you've got everything covered-- vehicle, fuel, food, etc etc- plus night vision, plus plus plus-- then it can be fun to get into new platforms and calibers. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 1:16:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not necessarily, especially if one is using optics. I'd also suggest the 75gr Hornady OTM over the 77gr SMK. The SMK has a slight edge on accuracy (nothing you'll notice at 300M) but has better (and more consistent) terminal performance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think I'd agree with avoiding the 7.62x39 in the AR. Works great in an AK and Mini-30 tho. Seems that the suggestion for the 77gr 5.56 appears to be solid. Going with a 20" barrel would help velocities and accuracy. Not necessarily, especially if one is using optics. I'd also suggest the 75gr Hornady OTM over the 77gr SMK. The SMK has a slight edge on accuracy (nothing you'll notice at 300M) but has better (and more consistent) terminal performance. On paper I have 't noticed much difference between the 5.56mm 77 gr. OTM and the 75 gr. 5.56mm TAP - I can get the 77 gr. easier and Cabelas routinely has the MK262 factory seconds in stock. I'd be happy with either |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 1:23:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On paper I have 't noticed much difference between the 5.56mm 77 gr. OTM and the 75 gr. 5.56mm TAP - I can get the 77 gr. easier and Cabelas routinely has the MK262 factory seconds in stock. I'd be happy with either Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think I'd agree with avoiding the 7.62x39 in the AR. Works great in an AK and Mini-30 tho. Seems that the suggestion for the 77gr 5.56 appears to be solid. Going with a 20" barrel would help velocities and accuracy. Not necessarily, especially if one is using optics. I'd also suggest the 75gr Hornady OTM over the 77gr SMK. The SMK has a slight edge on accuracy (nothing you'll notice at 300M) but has better (and more consistent) terminal performance. On paper I have 't noticed much difference between the 5.56mm 77 gr. OTM and the 75 gr. 5.56mm TAP - I can get the 77 gr. easier and Cabelas routinely has the MK262 factory seconds in stock. I'd be happy with either These are all good choices; however, if you're serious about MOA at longer distances, you will have to choose one-- or keep track of settings for POA/POI for various rounds. They will each be different. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:47:15 PM EDT
[#28]
A concealable pistol can solve about 95% of problems that are solvable with a gun.
Add an AR15 and you're up to about 98%. 100% if you limit the range to 300y. I think you should spend your cash on training or other holes in your food, gear, and home. If you must buy more weapon-related gear, I'd look at an optic with some magnification, followed by a suppressor. Those items offer extra capability, and add to enjoyment of just shooting for the hell of it ... which if we're all lucky is what our guns will be used for until the day we die in our sleep at age 112. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:30:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A concealable pistol can solve about 95% of problems that are solvable with a gun. Add an AR15 and you're up to about 98%. 100% if you limit the range to 300y. I think you should spend your cash on training or other holes in your food, gear, and home. If you must buy more weapon-related gear, I'd look at an optic with some magnification, followed by a suppressor. Those items offer extra capability, and add to enjoyment of just shooting for the hell of it ... which if we're all lucky is what our guns will be used for until the day we die in our sleep at age 112. This dude nailed it! ^ |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:10:20 PM EDT
[#30]
A 20" AR upper, with 1:7 or 1:9 twist, 62 to 69 grain ammo, and a free float tube or quad rail, bipod, a decent 1-4x or 4-14x or 4-16x optic, and good buttstock will fit all your needs nicely!
For under 600 yards not much can dominate an AR15. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:11:10 PM EDT
[#31]
a 16" 5.56 is capable of 300yds just fine,no need for a 20"
perhaps a 3Xmagnifier for the aimpoint or 4x scope instead of the aimpoint or 4x scope and keep the aimpoint and use a 45degree mount |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:29:19 PM EDT
[#32]
Not to beat a dead horse from 300 yds out, but another vote for keeping with the 5.56 and improving your optics and ammo.
7.62x39 is great and cheaper to shoot, but better in the intended platform imho. I just dove into the .308 world last week but with a bolt action and a high powered optic, with the intention of learning and practicing 500-1000 yds out. 300 in and I would be perfectly comfortable using my 16 in LWRC with ACOG. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:45:25 PM EDT
[#33]
If you want to go further than 300yds you could try a rainier or Noveske stainles barrel (14.5 or 16). Both are very accurate, but as has been said repeatedly, your current setup is adequate for sub 300yds. I might consider a little more glass like a vortex 1-4x or 2.5-10x... whatever floats your boat.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 12:47:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Several months ago I moved from Massachusetts to Texas, and I'm looking to replace my 'shtf' rifle. Distances down here are a lot longer than they were in MA, and things aren't as heavily wooded for the most part. At what distances does 308 become a better choice than 5.56? Is 7.62x39 worth considering? The 5.56/.223 is easily effective out to 600yds, if you have the right barrel and ammo. My 16" 1:9 bbl is good out to 300yds, but isn't necessarily a tack driver (I shoot iron sights, so an optic would probably shrink my groups...a little) It's fine for defense, but I would need an optic and a handloaded hunting bullet to trust it hunting. My 20" 1:8 bbl will shoot sub-MOA at 600yds all day long. (Again, I am shooting iron sights. This is my NMA4 that I use for high power competition.) The biggest difference is that the shorter bbl is not able to get as high velocities, which effects your ballistics down range. The higher twist rate helps stabilize the heavier bullets, but the velocity is the big difference. I have shot 77gr in my 16" 1:9 and it stabilized them fine. The shorter radius of the iron sights coupled with the lower velocity opened my group up at 200yds. The 20" 1:8 makes a nice tiny group with the same bullets. From what I've seen, I'm thinking the maximum range I need to consider is 300 yards. Beyond that I don't have the skill to hit shit anyways. It's good to know that 300yds is your "max" distance, but what kind of shooting are you doing? If you want hunting accuracy and will be staying near one location for your shooting, then get an AR upper that has a heavy 20" 1:8 bbl. This gives you the ability to shoot from about 52gr to 77gr ammo very accurately. If you plan on walking a lot with your rifle slung, I would still get the 20" 1:8, but not a heavy. People have already mentioned the extra 4" of barrel weight. You won't notice this if you're just in the field, but you definitely notice every ounce of weight in your gun if you practice room clearing every day. Even my 16" bbl gets heavy after a couple days of holding it "at the ready." Currently I have a 16" AR-15 in 5.56mm with an aimpoint micro on top of it. I'm considering either: - Replacing the upper with a 20" 5.56mm version - Replacing the upper with a 7.62x39 version in either 16" or 20" - Replacing the entire gun with an AR-10 Don't forget to add in the cost of reloading components (or loaded ammo) for your round. The .308 will easily open your range to 1000yds, and be legal for hunting most animals in most states, but it uses a LOT more powder to lob that heavy projectile. Brass, bullet, powder, and primer are all bigger, and therefore cost more. If you can afford to feed it, the AR-10 would be fun. Otherwise I like your option for a 20" 5.56 version (hopefully with a 1:8 twist.) EDIT: I should have mentioned I want to stick with the AR platform and with a common cartridge. I'm not interested in a SCAR, AK, or wundergun in 6.5mm, 6.8mm, 5.7mm, 300 Blackout, or 7.5mm Zombie. One more thing to consider, you may eventually get a bolt gun in the same caliber for more accurate hunting. Many of the .223 bolt guns are 1:12 twist rates, which prefers the lighter 40gr to 55gr rounds. You can find a couple of good options in .223 bolt guns with 1:9 twists: Savage, Rem 700, and Tikki are at the top of the list. The Rem700 can be outfitted with bottom metal to accept AR15 style mags (I think the Savage can too, but I'm not 100% sure off the top of my head). Of course, the .308 family has MANY options in bolt guns; so you could be very versatile there too. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 1:43:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
keep the rifle as it is and start using some MK262/5.56mm 77gr. OTM as your SHTF rounds. Consider adding a 3X magnifer to your rifle. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 7:28:07 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 4/24/2014 7:33:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If that is the case there is no need to do anything. A 16" AR is more than adequate enough to make good hits on targets at 300meters - a 20" will only give you more length and weight to worry about. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Several months ago I moved from Massachusetts to Texas, and I'm looking to replace my 'shtf' rifle. Distances down here are a lot longer than they were in MA, and things aren't as heavily wooded for the most part. At what distances does 308 become a better choice than 5.56? Is 7.62x39 worth considering? From what I've seen, I'm thinking the maximum range I need to consider is 300 yards. Beyond that I don't have the skill to hit shit anyways. Currently I have a 16" AR-15 in 5.56mm with an aimpoint micro on top of it. I'm considering either: - Replacing the upper with a 20" 5.56mm version - Replacing the upper with a 7.62x39 version in either 16" or 20" - Replacing the entire gun with an AR-10 EDIT: I should have mentioned I want to stick with the AR platform and with a common cartridge. I'm not interested in a SCAR, AK, or wundergun in 6.5mm, 6.8mm, 5.7mm, 300 Blackout, or 7.5mm Zombie. If that is the case there is no need to do anything. A 16" AR is more than adequate enough to make good hits on targets at 300meters - a 20" will only give you more length and weight to worry about. This. And if you do want to go with a heavier load, 6.5 Grendel ftw. :) |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 12:15:07 AM EDT
[#38]
At 300 yards or less id be fine with an sbr and acog or eotech and magnifier. 70 grain tsx or 77 grain otm and call it good.
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Posted: 4/25/2014 3:03:12 AM EDT
[#39]
Add a 308 and scope your current 5.56 + add a free state upper to it.
Being in Texas there ought to be some ranges where you can stretch the legs of your current setup. |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 3:46:44 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.8, go check out 68 forums. Only if you like a trajectory like a rainbow. |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 5:36:50 AM EDT
[#41]
Hey Skibane, Where is the 5.56 on the top chart? |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 6:09:43 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keep the carbine length barrel. Keep the 5.56 Maybe Buy another optic: ACOG as suggested. This At 300yds your current setup with an ACOG or 1-6 scope will do the job |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 6:25:48 AM EDT
[#43]
I'd build a 16 or 18 inch stainless 5.56 precision upper with a 3x9 on it and use some variant of a 77gr SMK. Mil rounds are "cheap" compared to commercial. You can get IMI Mk262 for <$17 per 20 rounds. I would think that you would be good out to 500 with that. I'm not a ballistics expert, though it seemed to work out okay for the military with Mk12s.
This way you keep a round that is as easily available and common as any other in the US and useable in any of your setups. It's relatively cheap compared to 308 and 6.8. If you're itching for something new, I would build the .308. That also keeps you to a common US round and, I believe, gives you the best range of the group. That's my opinion, current philosophy, and current direction. YMMV. |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 8:30:28 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only if you like a trajectory like a rainbow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
6.8, go check out 68 forums. Only if you like a trajectory like a rainbow. 
5.56 75gr OTM 7.62x51 147gr FMJ 6.8 SPC 110gr OTM and 6.5 Grendel 123gr SMK All have the same trajectory to 500y - which is 66% further than the OP's specifications. Now go troll elsewhere. |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 8:45:07 AM EDT
[#45]
I'll add a couple points to the discussion:
(1) A longer barrel does not make your rifle "more accurate." Longer barrels provide faster velocities, which may make a flatter trajectory, but generally does not increase accuracy. (2) Before choosing what rifle is best suited for shooting targets at a given distance, you should identify what size target you're attempting to engage. If shooting a 39" E-Type or an 18"x30" full size IPSC is your thing, you can get it done with 5.56. If you want to live in the real world, you need to accept that nobody just stands there in the open during a gunfight. In real combat, you'll be attempting to engage blobs of men laying in the prone and these targets are closer to 8-10" plates. I think most will find this a much harder target with 5.56 at 300yds. (3) Most AR15s are 2-3 MOA guns - so if you're attempting to hit men in the prone at 300yds, you're already at the limits of the weapon's capabilities (nevermind your own skill). Most ARs have chrome lined barrels which gives plenty of barrel life, but sucks for accuracy. Add to this that most people shoot non-match factory ammo through them... it doesn't really set you up well for precision shots necessary to hit men in the prone at 300yds. (4) Lastly, I learned on one of my adventures that magnification is really important - if for nothing else than identifying the enemy at distance. Nothing is more frustrating than not being able to figure out who's shooting at you. I run a Vortex Razer HD 1-6x. Gives me the best of both worlds (1x for close quarters, magnification for distance targets). There are cheaper optics out there. Bushnell has a decent 1-6, but I personally don't care for the reticle. Any magnified optic is better than nothing in my opinion. The best ones let you zoom back down to 1x. (5) Anytime you attempt to build something that's "good at everything" it ends up being good at nothing. Choose the right tool for the right job. If I want the capablity to shoot head shots at 300 (which is what I want), I know an AR15 is not going to give me first shot hits for that. Choose a different tool for that. Good luck with your search. |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 12:02:11 PM EDT
[#46]
training>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any rifle on the planet
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Posted: 4/25/2014 10:06:37 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In real combat, you'll be attempting to engage blobs of men laying in the prone and these targets are closer to 8-10" plates. I think most will find this a much harder target with 5.56 at 300yds. (3) Most AR15s are 2-3 MOA guns - so if you're attempting to hit men in the prone at 300yds, you're already at the limits of the weapon's capabilities (nevermind your own skill). Most ARs have chrome lined barrels which gives plenty of barrel life, but sucks for accuracy. Add to this that most people shoot non-match factory ammo through them... it doesn't really set you up well for precision shots necessary to hit men in the prone at 300yds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
In real combat, you'll be attempting to engage blobs of men laying in the prone and these targets are closer to 8-10" plates. I think most will find this a much harder target with 5.56 at 300yds. (3) Most AR15s are 2-3 MOA guns - so if you're attempting to hit men in the prone at 300yds, you're already at the limits of the weapon's capabilities (nevermind your own skill). Most ARs have chrome lined barrels which gives plenty of barrel life, but sucks for accuracy. Add to this that most people shoot non-match factory ammo through them... it doesn't really set you up well for precision shots necessary to hit men in the prone at 300yds. That's a marksmanship, ammo, or barrel problem, not a caliber problem (within reason ... 22lr won't get it done). Quoted:
(5) Anytime you attempt to build something that's "good at everything" it ends up being good at nothing. Choose the right tool for the right job. If I want the capablity to shoot head shots at 300 (which is what I want), I know an AR15 is not going to give me first shot hits for that. Choose a different tool for that. That different tool is going to have to be a quality barrel, decent ammo, probably a decent optic, and a competent marksman. Why can't it be an AR15? I don't see how the AR15 platform is the problem here. I'd argue that it's the ideal platform. Accurate enough, semi-auto, good magazine capacity, low recoil for easy followup shots. What tool would you prefer? |
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Posted: 4/26/2014 2:35:26 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: training>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any rifle on the planet That said, I would prefer AR-15 for mobile and close (<300 yards) and 7.62 x 51 for fixed and longer distances. |
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Posted: 4/26/2014 1:47:20 PM EDT
[#49]
When you look at a ballistics coefficient chart, most of the .224 bullets have higher BC's at higher velocities. The BC can be thought of as a reference for flight stability based on that bullet's profile and velocity. Therefore, the higher velocities achieved by the longer barrels MAY increase accuracy. I qualify that with "may" because the right powder-primer combo may help you achieve a decent velocity in a 16" bbl (not as much as the 20", but enough to maintain the higher BC for a longer distance)
You also need to consider that velocity in your terminal ballistics. Hollow points, soft points, frangibles, etc. They all have a velocity range that they perform best at. When you are hunting you need a hunting bullet. The military shoots FMJ for "humanitarian" reasons, not because it's the best for terminal ballistics. The "mil-spec" accuracy for an M4 is 2 MOA. Keep in mind that 2 MOA at 300 yds is roughly 6 inches. I would also add that this is for "mil-spec" ammo (M193, M855) which is not nearly as accurate as handloaded hunting rounds. When you add that consistent bullet (either reloaded or quality factory), you are sub-MOA all day long. As many others have stated, an AR15 can shoot sub-MOA at 600yds. You could not only get your "head shots" at 300yds, you could get "eye ball" shots. I bring this all up because I was thinking about the guys that I know that hunt feral hogs. I have not been myself, but they say you need great shot placement to bring them down. They are mean and can take multiple rounds of .223. Just something else to think about. |
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Posted: 4/26/2014 3:05:18 PM EDT
[#50]
AJ Royer is right.
With anything - shot placement is always KEY. Regardless of caliber. My friend (another arfcommer) and I were shooting our 5.56mm with 69gr Sierra Match Kings at a 18"x18" steel at 730 yards today. We had a blast doing it too! If you cannot achieve precise shot placement, don't bother with hunting - it won't be humane. Same with deer hunting. I've heard countless people tell me, "You need at least a 308 or 30-06, but preferably a 300 Win Mag for deer..." They usually then tell me something completely ignorant to qualify their statement with an anecdotal tale of how they (or their uncle, cousin, whatever) shot a buck with their 7mm Magnum, 'Hit him right in the shoulder and he got right back up and ran off!' As if it's some complete MYSTERY the animal took a hit in an APPENDAGE - a THICK shoulder blade, and NOT in any vital organs, and NOT any Central Nervous System or Circulatory System organs were damaged, and it scurried off to die a horrible, agonizing death or infection... Thus they think somehow shooting it with a 300-WinMag is some magical solution to their piss-poor marksmanship & choice for the point of impact! 
You shoot ME in the shoulder, you bet your ass I'll either shoot back or run like hell! No surprise or mystery about it! Shooting me with a 9mm instead of a 22 LR won't make much difference. It won't kill me. Choose your shot placement wisely! Use an effective bullet for the purpose at hand, and make damn sure you practice enough to make an incredibly accurate 1-shot Kill! I dropped a 233 pound (dressed weight) 12 pointer with ONE shot from my 223 AR-15 with shorty 14.5" barrel! Dropped him right there. Died instantly. Surgical shot to the CNS. Spliced his spine about 8" forward of the shoulder area. STUDY THE ANATOMY of your prey, learn where the best shots are, and precisely where (underneath all that muscle mass) vital organs, and central nervous system elements are located! Once you have shot placement down, you need a bullet with adequate terminal ballistics to inflict the damage upon the prey required to kill it quickly & humanely. For 223, I use Federal Law Enforcement T3 Bonded Core Tactical. |
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