Quoted: I still think he's a hero. I hope that the lies behind his death and the political banter don't shroud the fact that this was still a young man who gave up everything to serve his country and died in the process.

Absolutely.

The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The required gallantry, while of a lesser degree than that required for the Distinguished Service Cross, must nevertheless have been performed with marked distinction. www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm#SilverStar

How does Ranger Tillman's action at time of death rate a Silver Star?  Purple Heart?  Yes.  This may be the thread to pull to unravel the "lie".

Quoted: The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The required gallantry, while of a lesser degree than that required for the Distinguished Service Cross, must nevertheless have been performed with marked distinction. www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm#SilverStar How does Ranger Tillman's action at time of death rate a Silver Star?  Purple Heart?  Yes.  This may be the thread to pull to unravel the "lie".

You just quoted "why".

The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States...

According to the account of his actions, he was leading his men in a very forward leaning, hard-charging manner...

... while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force...

There WAS enemy being engaged at the time. It wasn't a range accident.

...or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The required gallantry, while of a lesser degree than that required for the Distinguished Service Cross, must nevertheless have been performed with marked distinction.

And apparently it was.

How can you claim otherwise?

Just because it was a US bullet that killed him while he was performing gallantly and courageously, does not make less the action.

Here is the Military's account for Tillman's Silver Star:

RELEASE NUMBER: 040430-01
DATE POSTED: APRIL 30, 2004

Army awards Silver Star to fallen Ranger

U.S. Army Special Operations Command Public Affairs Office

FORT BRAGG, N.C. (USASOC News Service, April 30, 2004) — An Army Ranger killed April 22 during combat in Afghanistan has been posthumously awarded the Silver Star, officials at the U.S. Army Special Operations Command here announced today.

Cpl. Patrick D. Tillman, an infantryman assigned to Company A, 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment at Fort Lewis, Wash., was awarded the medal for his selfless actions after his Ranger element was ambushed by anti-coalition insurgents during a ground assault convoy through southeastern Afghanistan.

The Silver Star is the Army’s third highest award for combat valor.  

During the Rangers’ combat patrol, Tillman's platoon was split into two sections.  Tillman, a team leader, was in the platoon’s lead section when the trail section began receiving mortar and small arms fire.  Because of the area’s cavernous terrain, the trail element was unable to maneuver out of the kill zone and it was difficult for the embattled trail section to target the enemy positions.

Although Tillman's element was already safely out of the area of the attack, he ordered his team to dismount and then maneuvered the Rangers up a hill near the enemy's location.  As they crested the hill, Tillman directed his team into firing positions and personally provided suppressive fire with an M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon machine gun.  

Through the firing, Tillman’s voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces emplaced on the dominating high ground.  

Only after Tillman’s team had engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear that the hostile fires directed at the Ranger trail section were diminished.
 
Leading his Rangers without regard for his own safety, Tillman was shot and killed while focusing his efforts on the elimination of the enemy forces and the protection of his team members.

As a result of Tillman’s combat leadership and his Soldiers’ efforts, the platoon’s trail section was able to maneuver through the ambush to positions of safety without taking a single casualty.

Link

Quoted: I would expect nothing less from the Mil./Gubment.  This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is why I never joined the Mil. My worst fear was to die in some foreign shithole, and have it covered up by some jackoff bureaucrat.

What an assinine excuse for not ponying up and helping defend freedom.

Nothing in that account has been determined to be false.
Compared to other Silver Star citations I have read, that one sounds legitimate.

Those who seek to belittle his actions and his sacrifice, only do so to further a pre-existing agenda (anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-government, Libertarian, etc.).

Quoted: I would expect nothing less from the Mil./Gubment.  This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is why I never joined the Mil. My worst fear was to die in some foreign shithole, and have it covered up by some jackoff bureaucrat.

Yeah, sure.

Quoted: I would expect nothing less from the Mil./Gubment.  This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is why I never joined the Mil. My worst fear was to die in some foreign shithole, and have it covered up by some jackoff bureaucrat.

I would expect nothing more from you.  Sadly.

One of the most patriotic men i have ever heard of gets TK'D...WTF!

Quoted: Quoted: Here is the Military's account for Tillman's Silver Star: RELEASE NUMBER: 040430-01 DATE POSTED: APRIL 30, 2004 Army awards Silver Star to fallen Ranger U.S. Army Special Operations Command Public Affairs Office FORT BRAGG, N.C. (USASOC News Service, April 30, 2004) — An Army Ranger killed April 22 during combat in Afghanistan has been posthumously awarded the Silver Star, officials at the U.S. Army Special Operations Command here announced today. Cpl. Patrick D. Tillman, an infantryman assigned to Company A, 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment at Fort Lewis, Wash., was awarded the medal for his selfless actions after his Ranger element was ambushed by anti-coalition insurgents during a ground assault convoy through southeastern Afghanistan. The Silver Star is the Army’s third highest award for combat valor.   During the Rangers’ combat patrol, Tillman's platoon was split into two sections.  Tillman, a team leader, was in the platoon’s lead section when the trail section began receiving mortar and small arms fire.  Because of the area’s cavernous terrain, the trail element was unable to maneuver out of the kill zone and it was difficult for the embattled trail section to target the enemy positions. Although Tillman's element was already safely out of the area of the attack, he ordered his team to dismount and then maneuvered the Rangers up a hill near the enemy's location.  As they crested the hill, Tillman directed his team into firing positions and personally provided suppressive fire with an M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon machine gun.   Through the firing, Tillman’s voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces emplaced on the dominating high ground.   Only after Tillman’s team had engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear that the hostile fires directed at the Ranger trail section were diminished.   Leading his Rangers without regard for his own safety, Tillman was shot and killed while focusing his efforts on the elimination of the enemy forces and the protection of his team members. As a result of Tillman’s combat leadership and his Soldiers’ efforts, the platoon’s trail section was able to maneuver through the ambush to positions of safety without taking a single casualty. Link And, uh, you have a problem with that....how? Still think that the US Military is handing out Silver Stars like gimmee hats at a minor league ball park? If so, why? If not, don't you have a lot of 'editing' to do? Eric The(ClearAndConcise)Hun

Did I say I had a problem with it?

Quoted: Quoted: Did I say I had a problem with it? Uh, yeah. Quoted: Isn't the fact the Army gave Tillman the Silver Star for heroically leading a charge and dying by enemy fire, when he really was killed by friendly-fire, a pretty good indicator that they tried to misrepresent what happened? That is your post from Page 1 of this thread, entitled 'Pat Tillman Death', at: http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=354283&page=1 Was Pat Tillman's  Silver Star citation based upon a 'misrepresentation' or not? Make a choice and stick with it. Eric The(HonestAsHell)Hun

You mean old Hun…

He dug himself a hole and thought nobody would notice.

Keep stomping on his dancing feet you mean old Hun.

Quoted: Quoted: Did I say I had a problem with it? Uh, yeah. Quoted: Isn't the fact the Army gave Tillman the Silver Star for heroically leading a charge and dying by enemy fire, when he really was killed by friendly-fire, a pretty good indicator that they tried to misrepresent what happened? That is your post from Page 1 of this thread, entitled 'Pat Tillman Death', at: http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=354283&page=1 Was Pat Tillman's  Silver Star citation based upon a 'misrepresentation' or not? Make a choice and stick with it. Eric The(HonestAsHell)Hun

I meant they tried to misrepresent how he died, not the details of his heroism. That was pretty obvious. You seem to enjoy twisting and misrepresenting what people say, as you seem to do it with nearly every one of my posts. Is your argument so weak that you must distort my stated position in an attempt to win the debate? Every discussion I've ever had with you boils down to me trying to correct you on how you misrepresented or exaggerated my position.


Perfect example below. Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved?

Quoted:
Quoted:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Sure. You kill a fellow soldier by accident and then burn his uniform and body armor to keep it from showing up on Ebay as the Military reports to the world that he was killed by enemy fire. Yep that makes sense to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Oh sure. It's the Bush Administration which orders the immediate burning of Tillman's uniform and body armor to keep it from being used to undermine its policies in Afghanistan...not Iraq....but its policies in Afghanistan...which very few Americans...or even non-Americans oppose!
Yeah, that makes excellent sense!



Get a grip, Sir!

Eric The(Un-fricking-believable)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: I meant they tried to misrepresent how he died, not the details of his heroism. Then say it clearly and without equivocation! What you were 'saying' was simply part and parcel of the Left's attack on this President and his Administration. And they are using the tragic death of Pat Tillman to do so! They thought he was a chump for leaving a multi-million dollar job to go fight in the President's 'War for Oil', yet, now, they applaud his heroism and bemoan his fate.... There's a Leftist agenda going on here, and I am trying to lead you away from it...not further into it! That was pretty obvious. I only wish the truth was more obvious to everyone. You seem to enjoy twisting and misrepresenting what people say, as you seem to do it with nearly every one of my posts. It appears that many have misunderstood your posts. So, I ain't the Lone Ranger, stranger! Is your argument so weak that you must distort my stated position in an attempt to win the debate? Then say what you mean and mean what you say and DO NOT regurgitate the puke that the Leftists say about these matters, and I will NOT have any reason to 'twist' your words.... Every discussion I've ever had with you boils down to me trying to correct you on how you misrepresented or exaggerated my position. Sorry, but I am not one to take these matters lightly. The fate of the Republic is in the balance, IMHO. Just consider that I am causing you to rethink your views, or, at the very least, learn how to rephrase them to get across your views in a coherent fashion. Eric The(NoExtraCharge!)Hun

You are the King of the Strawman


Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:


Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Examples of Straw Man

Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

"Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved?

You said:

It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception.

The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush.
You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right?

Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right?

So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military.

Here is my .02.  [rant on]

The military brass has more than its fair share of politicians, they stink to high heaven.  We dealt with it in Iraq, and it caught us in the but.  Right after we left (the 101st) in Feb 04, the shit hit the fan.  Of course our highers, gunning for stars, had been bullshitting the whole year we were there about how it was "over" and that the Iraqi people were well trained to defend themselves... while we in the trenches knew it was bullshit.  So we left, and in April it all went to hell, and the Iraqis Forces refused to fight, etc., basically we got complacent.

How about Jessica Lynch (I will get to Pat Tillman, bear with me)?  We knew she didn't do shit, she was unconcious during the fight.  But there were soldiers in her unit that fought valiantly and were virtually ignored.  Was it her fault?  No.  Did the Army whore her out and make a BS story about her for publicity?  Hell yes, that still pisses me off.  Fucking politicians with stars making bullshit up while ignoring the all the other Soldiers living and dying valiantly.

Pat Tillman... who here knows the Ranger motto?  Sua Sponte, latin for "Of Our Own Accord."  EVERY RANGER is a volunteer.  Not just a "volunteer" that enlisted, but someone who volunteered for the toughest training, the most dangerous missions, and the hardest lifestyle the Army had to offer.  People who would not quit.  And the fact that Pat Tillman left his life as a football player to become a Ranger makes him the ultimate volunteer, someone who sacrificed A LOT to do what he did.  Just him volunteering made him a hero in my eyes, that act alone says a lot.  Not that any other soldier does not sacrifice or leave behind family or friends.  The way he was killed sucked.  It really sucked, but it is part of war.  The fact that the Army decision makers in charge waffled and tried to BS their way out of it sucks even more, and shows a LACK OF MORAL COURAGE IN OUR NATIONAL LEADERS AND POLICY MAKERS.  The whole lot of those gutless cowards and the way they lie about our troops, ignore our heros, and use tragedy for political capital makes me sick.
[/rant off]

Quoted: Here is my .02.  [rant on] The military brass has more than its fair share of politicians, they stink to high heaven.  We dealt with it in Iraq, and it caught us in the but.  Right after we left (the 101st) in Feb 04, the shit hit the fan.  Of course our highers, gunning for stars, had been bullshitting the whole year we were there about how it was "over" and that the Iraqi people were well trained to defend themselves... while we in the trenches knew it was bullshit.  So we left, and in April it all went to hell, and the Iraqis Forces refused to fight, etc., basically we got complacent. How about Jessica Lynch (I will get to Pat Tillman, bear with me)?  We knew she didn't do shit, she was unconcious during the fight.  But there were soldiers in her unit that fought valiantly and were virtually ignored.  Was it her fault?  No.  Did the Army whore her out and make a BS story about her for publicity?  Hell yes, that still pisses me off.  Fucking politicians with stars making bullshit up while ignoring the all the other Soldiers living and dying valiantly. Pat Tillman... who here knows the Ranger motto?  Sua Sponte, latin for "Of Our Own Accord."  EVERY RANGER is a volunteer.  Not just a "volunteer" that enlisted, but someone who volunteered for the toughest training, the most dangerous missions, and the hardest lifestyle the Army had to offer.  People who would not quit.  And the fact that Pat Tillman left his life as a football player to become a Ranger makes him the ultimate volunteer, someone who sacrificed A LOT to do what he did.  Just him volunteering made him a hero in my eyes, that act alone says a lot.  Not that any other soldier does not sacrifice or leave behind family or friends.  The way he was killed sucked.  It really sucked, but it is part of war.  The fact that the Army decision makers in charge waffled and tried to BS their way out of it sucks even more, and shows a LACK OF MORAL COURAGE IN OUR NATIONAL LEADERS AND POLICY MAKERS.  The whole lot of those gutless cowards and the way they lie about our troops, ignore our heros, and use tragedy for political capital makes me sick. [/rant off]

I agree with you 100%!

[turn on sarcasm] But we can't discuss it because it's wrong to say anything that doesn't show 100% support of the Bush administration and the military. We are all supposed to be mindless robots just nodding our heads at anything that is pro-Right and shake our heads at anything that is anti-Right. That appears to be how some on this board expect us to be.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right? So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military.

So when you said "It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception"....

...you were referring to the military?

So the miltary IS the "government", but the Bush Administration is NOT the "government".

If you say so.
Personally, I think you full of shit.

Quoted: [turn on sarcasm] But we can't discuss it because it's wrong to say anything that doesn't show 100% support of the Bush administration and the military. We are all supposed to be mindless robots just nodding our heads at anything that is pro-Right and shake our heads at anything that is anti-Right. That appears to be how some on this board expect us to be.

Those of you who are whining about the Tillman case are doing nothing more than highlight your ignorance about the military.
It's beginning to appear as though that ignorance comes from some form of contempt.

The Amry COULD NOT tell the Tillmans that it was "friendly fire" until the investigation was complete. Period.  They said that he "died in action against the enemy".  That's true.
Even though they KNEW that it was friendly fire, they could not say so until the investigation was complete.
Sorry.
That's the way it goes.
There are no ways around it.
It's the regulations.

Did some of his fellow Rangers try to hide the fact that it was Friendly Fire?
Apparently.
Regardless.
The info presented to his parents is EXACTLY the info that would have been presented to the parents of an anonymous farmboy or kid from the ghetto.

You people are SO obsessed with celebrities, that you assume the regulations can just be ignored because it's PAT TILLMAN.
Wrong.
Do you really think that the Rangers who tried to cover up the circumstances of his death were awed by his celebrity?
Hell no.
They liked him because he was a good soldier.  They covered up the death because of misguided loyalty and personal flaws.
Was it "Government deception"?
Hell no.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right? So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military. So when you said "It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception".... ...you were referring to the military? So the miltary IS the "government", but the Bush Administration is NOT the "government". If you say so. Personally, I think you full of shit.

Maybe I meant the Post Office when I said "govt deception"???  Or maybe (let's put our thinking caps on)since the US Military was the "Govt. entity" that was conveying all the information about Tillman's death, wouldn't you think that would be who I was talking about when I said "govt" ??????????????????

Quoted: Those of you who are whining about the Tillman case are doing nothing more than highlight your ignorance about the military. It's beginning to appear as though that ignorance comes from some form of contempt. The Amry COULD NOT tell the Tillmans that it was "friendly fire" until the investigation was complete. Period.  They said that he "died in action against the enemy".  That's true. Even though they KNEW that it was friendly fire, they could not say so until the investigation was complete. Sorry. That's the way it goes. There are no ways around it. It's the regulations.

No to butt in this discussion, but...

Certain elements of the military chain of command really don't deal with the public very well.  Jessica Lynch was a prime example of this.  That was complete bullshit, we knew it, and they knew that we knew it.  They could have handled the Pat Tillman situation better, even if they were telling the "truth", it was evasive.

This is not a shot at the Administration, the Military, and definitely not .gov.  Just certain elements.  

That's true.
One of the reasons why incomplete info (such as a finding of fact before the investigation had even began) is not allowed to be conveyed in Casualty Calls, is because of just that.
The military is not always good at PR.

Quoted: Quoted: [turn on sarcasm] But we can't discuss it because it's wrong to say anything that doesn't show 100% support of the Bush administration and the military. We are all supposed to be mindless robots just nodding our heads at anything that is pro-Right and shake our heads at anything that is anti-Right. That appears to be how some on this board expect us to be. Those of you who are whining about the Tillman case are doing nothing more than highlight your ignorance about the military. It's beginning to appear as though that ignorance comes from some form of contempt. The Amry COULD NOT tell the Tillmans that it was "friendly fire" until the investigation was complete. Period.  They said that he "died in action against the enemy".  That's true. Even though they KNEW that it was friendly fire, they could not say so until the investigation was complete. Sorry. That's the way it goes. There are no ways around it. It's the regulations. Did some of his fellow Rangers try to hide the fact that it was Friendly Fire? Apparently. Regardless. The info presented to his parents is EXACTLY the info that would have been presented to the parents of an anonymous farmboy or kid from the ghetto. You people are SO obsessed with celebrities, that you assume the regulations can just be ignored because it's PAT TILLMAN. Wrong. Do you really think that the Rangers who tried to cover up the circumstances of his death were awed by his celebrity? Hell no. They liked him because he was a good soldier.  They covered up the death because of misguided loyalty and personal flaws. Was it "Government deception"? Hell no.

It took 5 weeks for the US Military to tell the truth about how Tillman Died?? Yet in the case of 2 RAF pilots being killed by a US missile, it was reported within 2 days. That shoots your "investigation must be performed first" theory all to hell.

Tillman Killed: April 22
Silver Star: April 30th
Report released May 31st that he was killed by friendly fire

March 22: A British Royal Air Force (RAF) Tornado jet is accidentally shot down by a US Patriot missile. The Tornado's two crew are killed.
Reported 2 Days Later after incident

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right? So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military. So when you said "It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception".... ...you were referring to the military? So the miltary IS the "government", but the Bush Administration is NOT the "government". If you say so. Personally, I think you full of shit. Maybe I meant the Post Office when I said "govt deception"???  Or maybe (let's put our thinking caps on)since the US Military was the "Govt. entity" that was conveying all the information about Tillman's death, wouldn't you think that would be who I was talking about when I said "govt" ??????????????????

Maybe.  But I'll stand by my initial impression.

Name one false piece of info that was passed to the Tillmans regarding their son's death.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right? So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military. So when you said "It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception".... ...you were referring to the military? So the miltary IS the "government", but the Bush Administration is NOT the "government". If you say so. Personally, I think you full of shit. Maybe I meant the Post Office when I said "govt deception"???  Or maybe (let's put our thinking caps on)since the US Military was the "Govt. entity" that was conveying all the information about Tillman's death, wouldn't you think that would be who I was talking about when I said "govt" ?????????????????? Maybe.  But I'll stand by my initial impression. Name one false piece of info that was passed to the Tillmans regarding their son's death.

DUH!!! That he was killed by the enemy. Did you really miss that the military was telling his family that?

Incase you missed the dozens of news stories

Anyone here ever been trained as a Casualty Calls Officer? I have. You have very limited information when you first make the call.

Given what I know. I highly doubt there was any intentional deception on the part of the military.

Seems like most posters who are critical of the military think the government operates as one big well-oiled machine. It does not, I assure you. Ever play telephone? How quickly did information change. Now multiply that by 10,000 miles and limited information because of an ongoing investigation. There is bound to be inconsitancies until the investigation is complelte and the full facts are available.

Report finds Army initially hid truth about Pat Tillman's death
Investigators knew that ex-NFL star was killed by own troops, but kept lid on facts
Josh White, Washington Post

Wednesday, May 4, 2005


Washington -- The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of gross negligence, but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.

A new Army report on the death shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John Abizaid, were told that Tillman's death was "fratricide" days before the service.

Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of U.S. bullets as he took shelter behind a boulder during a firefight on a canyon road near the Pakistani border, according to nearly 2, 000 pages of interview transcripts and investigative reports obtained by the Washington Post.

The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from his brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack on April 22, 2004, but did not witness it.

Writing the report in response to questions from Tillman's family and from Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones concluded that there was no official reluctance to report the truth. But, he added, "Nothing has contributed more to an atmosphere of suspicion by the family than the failure to tell the family that Cpl. Pat Tillman's death was the result of suspected friendly fire, as soon as that information became known within military channels."

In interviews with Jones, soldiers who were with Tillman when he died said they immediately reported that other Rangers, riding in a humvee, emptied their weapons at his position on a hill without first identifying who they were shooting. Perceiving they were in a heated firefight, the soldiers rounded a corner and used several high-powered weapons to kill an Afghan Militia Force soldier working with the Rangers before pausing and turning their guns on Tillman. About 65 meters away, Tillman had been waving his arms and throwing a smoke grenade to signal that he was not an enemy fighter.

Tillman's death was an enormous blow to the image of the Army and the special forces because of his storybook personal narrative. The San Jose native turned down a multimillion-dollar contract with the Arizona Cardinals to enlist in the Army after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. He and his brother joined the elite Army Rangers and deployed to Iraq and later Afghanistan, hunting the Taliban and al Qaeda through mountainous terrain.

Jones found that the operation on April 22, 2004, was a routine "confirm or deny" trip to determine whether enemy combatants were in the town of Manah. Commanders did not think hostile forces were in Manah, the report said, but an order to hurry up and get troops on the ground there before dusk was passed on because "we were trying to get them back and save them for the next part of the fight," an unnamed officer said in redacted documents.

Tillman's platoon had to split up because of a broken humvee. Tillman's half went ahead toward the town. When the second half of the platoon followed through the canyon, it reportedly came under enemy fire. Tillman grabbed another Ranger and the Afghan soldier and got into position to lend fire support. When the second half of the platoon rounded a corner, it mistook the trio as foes.

The soldiers who fired on Tillman cited many reasons for the confusion: The sun was going down and lighting was bad; soldiers shot where they saw muzzle flashes but did not appropriately determine a target; they shot in the same direction as their team leader, assuming that he was firing at the enemy.

After the shooting, Tillman's brother was not told about what had happened and was flown back to the United States with his brother's body. Officers told the soldiers not to talk about the incident to prevent rumors and news reports.

The first report about Tillman's death within Army channels -- sent at 4:40 p.m. April 22 -- said Tillman died in a clinic after his vehicle came under direct and indirect fire, attributing the gunshot wounds he received to enemy forces. An investigation was immediately launched, and several documents show that the local chain of command was largely convinced it was fratricide from the beginning.

The next day, Tillman's Ranger body armor was burned because it was covered in blood and was considered a biohazard. His uniform was also burned. Jones noted that this amounted to the destruction of evidence.

Soldiers reported they burned the evidence because "we knew at the time, based on taking the pictures and walking around it, it was a fratricide. ... We knew in our hearts what had happened, and we weren't going to lie about it. So we weren't thinking about proof or anything."

An initial investigation found fratricide just days later. Top commanders within the U.S. Central Command, including Abizaid, were notified by April 29 -- four days before Tillman's memorial service in San Jose.

The family learned about Tillman's fratricide over Memorial Day weekend, several weeks later. Commanders felt they could not hold onto the old version because the Rangers were returning home and "everybody knows the story," the documents show.

Seven soldiers were reprimanded for their actions, the most serious of which were for dereliction of duty and failing to exercise sound judgment and fire discipline in combat operations.

Link

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right? So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military. So when you said "It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception".... ...you were referring to the military? So the miltary IS the "government", but the Bush Administration is NOT the "government". If you say so. Personally, I think you full of shit. Maybe I meant the Post Office when I said "govt deception"???  Or maybe (let's put our thinking caps on)since the US Military was the "Govt. entity" that was conveying all the information about Tillman's death, wouldn't you think that would be who I was talking about when I said "govt" ?????????????????? Maybe.  But I'll stand by my initial impression. Name one false piece of info that was passed to the Tillmans regarding their son's death. DUH!!! That he was killed by the enemy. Did you really miss that the military was telling his family that?

I knew you'd avoid the question.  (your link is the google results for "pat tillman")  THAT is not an answer.

Show me one solitary single quote from the army to the Tillmans that was false.  Show me where they said he was killed BY THE ENEMY.

They didn't say "killed by the enemy".  That would be false.

They said "Killed in Action against the enemy" That is true.

Give me a quote.
Stop your bending of the truth.
It's starting to stink.

Quoted: Anyone here ever been trained as a Casualty Calls Officer? I have. You have very limited information when you first make the call. Given what I know. I highly doubt there was any intentional deception on the part of the military.

So have I.

You are right.

To someone who is unfamiliar with how it works, it would appear as though you are hiding information.
It's not the case.  You are specifically forbidden to speculate on any info regarding the casualty.

Example:

A Marine was Very Seriously Injured.  
I informed his Next Of Kin.  At the time he was in a field hospital in Iraq.
Everyone knew that he would be moved to Germany.  And he was.
Even his NOK knew how it went. But when they asked me: "will he be moved to Germany?"...

I said:  "I don't know.  When we have more complete information, we'll let you know."

Did I lie or deceive?  No.

I was not allowed to tell them more, because it was not yet a fact.  It was speculation.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right? So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military. So when you said "It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception".... ...you were referring to the military? So the miltary IS the "government", but the Bush Administration is NOT the "government". If you say so. Personally, I think you full of shit. Maybe I meant the Post Office when I said "govt deception"???  Or maybe (let's put our thinking caps on)since the US Military was the "Govt. entity" that was conveying all the information about Tillman's death, wouldn't you think that would be who I was talking about when I said "govt" ?????????????????? Maybe.  But I'll stand by my initial impression. Name one false piece of info that was passed to the Tillmans regarding their son's death. DUH!!! That he was killed by the enemy. Did you really miss that the military was telling his family that? I knew you'd avoid the question.   Show me one solitary single quote from the army to the Tillmans that was false. They didn't say "killed by the enemy".  That would be false. They said "Killed in Action against the enemy" That is true. Give me a quote. Stop your bending of the truth. It's starting to stink.

Sure sounds like the Tillman's feel they were lied to.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/football/nfl/05/23/tillman.family.ap/ index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The family of former NFL player Pat Tillman says the Army disrespected his memory by lying in its investigation of his death in Afghanistan last year.

In interviews with The Washington Post, the Army Ranger's mother and father said they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country.

"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman told the Post. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."

.............................................

Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.

After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened.

The separate interviews with Tillman's parents, who are divorced, appeared on the Post's Internet site for Monday's editions.

Patrick Tillman Sr., a lawyer, told the Post he is furious about a "botched homicide investigation" and blames high-ranking Army officers for presenting "outright lies" to the family and to the public.

"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," the father said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy."

"In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family," Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks told the Post. "For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes

Quoted: It took 5 weeks for the US Military to tell the truth about how Tillman Died?? Yet in the case of 2 RAF pilots being killed by a US missile, it was reported within 2 days. That shoots your "investigation must be performed first" theory all to hell.

You _____.

It's not a "theory", it's the regulations governing Casualty and Condolence Calls.

The Tornado that was shot down had nothing to do with US Casualties.
Your point is without merit.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right? So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military. So when you said "It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception".... ...you were referring to the military? So the miltary IS the "government", but the Bush Administration is NOT the "government". If you say so. Personally, I think you full of shit. Maybe I meant the Post Office when I said "govt deception"???  Or maybe (let's put our thinking caps on)since the US Military was the "Govt. entity" that was conveying all the information about Tillman's death, wouldn't you think that would be who I was talking about when I said "govt" ?????????????????? Maybe.  But I'll stand by my initial impression. Name one false piece of info that was passed to the Tillmans regarding their son's death. DUH!!! That he was killed by the enemy. Did you really miss that the military was telling his family that? I knew you'd avoid the question.   Show me one solitary single quote from the army to the Tillmans that was false. They didn't say "killed by the enemy".  That would be false. They said "Killed in Action against the enemy" That is true. Give me a quote. Stop your bending of the truth. It's starting to stink. Sure sounds like the Tillman's feel they were lied to.

Saying "they feel they were lied to", doesn't cut it. (Nick Berg's Dad thought George Bush cut his son's head off)
Again, I'll ask you to provide a single solitary quote.
You can't.

They wanted to be told all intitially and they weren't.
The Army "knew" what had happened, but couldn't tell the Tillmans until the investigation was complete (justice, and the rights of soldiers, and all that stuff).

Why are you unable to comprehend something so basic?

Quoted: Quoted: It took 5 weeks for the US Military to tell the truth about how Tillman Died?? Yet in the case of 2 RAF pilots being killed by a US missile, it was reported within 2 days. That shoots your "investigation must be performed first" theory all to hell. You idiot. It's not a "theory", it's the regulations governing Casualty and Condolence Calls. The Tornado that was shot down had nothing to do with US Casualties. Your point is without merit.

Sorry Sir, you're wrong. Here's where the military reported a friendly fire incident and US deaths THE DAY IT HAPPENED:

Friendly fire: An accidental F-15E Strike Eagle airstrike killed three U.S. service members and injured five others, U.S. officials said. April 6th 2003


See "causulaties" near bottom listed as "Freindly Fire"


You can confirm here the day it happened---See april 6th


Give it up. LOL!!!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I mention anything about Bush being involved? You said: It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception. The Hun mentioned the "Bush Administration", not Bush. You DO consider the "Bush Administration" to be the "Government", right? So are 5 million other govt employees. It this case, it's pretty obvious we are talking about the military. So when you said "It's a clear-cut issue of Govt deception".... ...you were referring to the military? So the miltary IS the "government", but the Bush Administration is NOT the "government". If you say so. Personally, I think you full of shit. Maybe I meant the Post Office when I said "govt deception"???  Or maybe (let's put our thinking caps on)since the US Military was the "Govt. entity" that was conveying all the information about Tillman's death, wouldn't you think that would be who I was talking about when I said "govt" ?????????????????? Maybe.  But I'll stand by my initial impression. Name one false piece of info that was passed to the Tillmans regarding their son's death. DUH!!! That he was killed by the enemy. Did you really miss that the military was telling his family that? I knew you'd avoid the question.   Show me one solitary single quote from the army to the Tillmans that was false. They didn't say "killed by the enemy".  That would be false. They said "Killed in Action against the enemy" That is true. Give me a quote. Stop your bending of the truth. It's starting to stink. Sure sounds like the Tillman's feel they were lied to. Saying "they feel they were lied to", doesn't cut it. (Nick Berg's Dad thought George Bush cut his son's head off) Again, I'll ask you to provide a single solitary quote. You can't. They wanted to be told all intitially and they weren't. The Army "knew" what had happened, but couldn't tell the Tillmans until the investigation was complete (justice, and the rights of soldiers, and all that stuff). Why are you unable to comprehend something so basic?

The Tillman's were pretty clear in saying they were lied to. Why are you unable to comprehend something so basic?

Did you miss these dozen or so articles???

Laugh it up clown.
Tell me my business.
Tell me the rules and regulations governing what can and can't be told to Next of Kin.

I've made those calls, and it was not pleasant.  I know about it.
I know that if there is an active investigation into whether or not it was friendly fire, it can't be included in the report to the Next Of Kin.  Do you know what the military casualty officers told the parents of the indivuals killed in that anti-air Blue on blue?
I doubt it.

Do you?

Gleefully try to pick this apart, and why?
What is the source for this deep seeded contempt you have for the military?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It took 5 weeks for the US Military to tell the truth about how Tillman Died?? Yet in the case of 2 RAF pilots being killed by a US missile, it was reported within 2 days. That shoots your "investigation must be performed first" theory all to hell. You idiot. It's not a "theory", it's the regulations governing Casualty and Condolence Calls. The Tornado that was shot down had nothing to do with US Casualties. Your point is without merit. Sorry Fooktard, you're wrong. Here's where the military reported a friendly fire incident and US deaths THE DAY IT HAPPENED: Friendly fire: An accidental F-15E Strike Eagle airstrike killed three U.S. service members and injured five others, U.S. officials said. April 6th 2003 See "causulaties" near bottom listed as "Freindly Fire" You can confirm here the day it happened---See april 6th Give it up, you're pathetic. LOL!!!

Actually you sound like the pathetic one. You've failed to address any of Cincinnatus' points. It's obvious from your postings you have no real experience with casualty notification experience and, if I were to hazard a guess, you have little or no military experience.  You're responding with emotion and not facts.

Quoted: The Tillman's were pretty clear in saying they were lied to. Why are you unable to comprehend something so basic? Did you miss these dozen or so articles???

They weren't told everything. True.

Again, I'll ask you again as I've asked you again and again....

What did the army say to the Tillmans that was a lie?

Not do they "feel" they were lied to?

Give me a quote.

Quoted: I know I remember the initial reports said she fought till she was out of ammo. Then a year later she says not true, her gun jammed and she hid.

Miller was the hero, and was almost completely ignored.

Bury your head in the sand............

Linky


U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Matthew Beevers said Saturday that Tillman was killed Thursday night in a firefight at about 7 p.m. on a road near Sperah, about 25 miles southwest of a U.S. base at Khost.

After coming under fire, Tillman’s patrol got out of their vehicles and gave chase, moving toward the spot of the ambush. Beevers said the fighting was “sustained” and lasted 15-20 minutes.
Tom Hauck / Getty Images file
Pat Tillman turned down a $3.6 million contract in 2002 to join the Army in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Beevers said Tillman was killed by enemy fire, but he had no information about what type of weapons were involved in the assault, or whether he died instantly.

I often wonder what shortcomings a man must have, and what demons must plague him, to make him try to belittle a dead soldier's sacrifice.
We've see it here a few times.

Those who engage in such behavior can't seem to help themselves.

It dishonor's Tillman's memory and his service, to try to deconstruct and nitpick the administrative errors that may have occurred during the aftermath of his death.
It was no grand conspiracy.
It was simply sloppy.

So what?

Well, answer the question, TacticalStrat, what makes a man want to belittle the memory of a fallen soldier?

(Please don't pretend to be on some noble quest for the truth.  That doesn't suit you.)

Quoted: Quite frankly, TacticalStrat, I don't think you understand this discussion, at all. With all due respect, I think you are arguing over issues that no one else is arguing about. His fellow troops on the ground likely knew immediately that it was 'friendly fire' that took Pat Tillman's life. But the military does not accept that 'knowledge' as the be-all, end-all, of the issue. They will investigate it thoroughly. Which they did. And they confirmed after 5 weeks (!) what occurred on the other side of the earth! Quite frankly, I think that's amazing! You and the Left think that it's 'lying to Tillman's Parents.' And I think that is 'amazing', as well. Well, politics makes for strange bedfellows, we are told! Be careful about picking up some STDs from your political bedfellows! Eric The(That's'StupidThinkingDesigns')Hun

It has been pretty evident for 2 days now he cannot handle complex reasoning tasks. Facts do not matter to him and supposition and emotion do.

Someone makes a point… he throws in something unrelated and shouts Ah-ha… he simply cannot make simple distinctions among a set of facts.

He says he is not doing x and then proceeds to do just that. He does not have any other intent but to throw rocks...

You are arguing with a clown… it is pointless.

Quoted: I often wonder what shortcomings a man must have, and what demons must plague him, to make him try to belittle a dead soldier's sacrifice. We've see it here a few times. Those who engage in such behavior can't seem to help themselves. It dishonor's Tillman's memory and his service, to try to deconstruct and nitpick the administrative errors that may have occurred during the aftermath of his death. It was no grand conspiracy. It was simply sloppy. So what? Well, answer the question, TacticalStrat, what makes a man want to belittle the memory of a fallen soldier? (Please don't pretend to be on some noble quest for the truth.  That doesn't suit you.)

Your knee jerk support of whoever dreamed up this story about Pat Tillman is what is wrong.

Someone in the government got handed lemons and came up with a god awful way to make lemonade out of it. And your bull headed insistance they did nothing wrong is nothing short of stupid. I expect that type of response from Ricky, but you were in the military and should know better.

But you throw in a bunch of red herrings and straw men to obscure the point that while the government was glorifying the death of Pat Tillman, the simple fact was that he was killed by friendly fire. This in and of itself is not deserving of the Silver Star and belittles the accomplishments of other Silver Star winners.

Was Pat Tillman a hero for having left NFL millions for death on a foreign battlefield? I think he was. But in war the deeds of soldiers are often used by politicians for their own self serving reasons. I think this is what Tillman's parents are against.

Not the soldiers who served with their son.

Not the front line commanders.

The politicians both in the army and in the civilian government.

Before you start setting up your straw men for me, I'll tell you that I have made many condolence calls and was Battalion Funeral Officer for some time.  I have a Bronze Star, not a Silver Star and I understand what a soldier must do to earn a Silver Star. Just being there is not enough. They have service ribbons for that. Not getting killed, they have the purple heart for that.

I don't know what Tillman's Silver Star Citation says. Do you? I'm guessing his parents know what it says and they know its not true.

I'm thinking they believe those lies don't enhance their son's memory but devalue what he did do.