Quoted: Quoted: I often wonder what shortcomings a man must have, and what demons must plague him, to make him try to belittle a dead soldier's sacrifice. We've see it here a few times. Those who engage in such behavior can't seem to help themselves. It dishonor's Tillman's memory and his service, to try to deconstruct and nitpick the administrative errors that may have occurred during the aftermath of his death. It was no grand conspiracy. It was simply sloppy. So what? Well, answer the question, TacticalStrat, what makes a man want to belittle the memory of a fallen soldier? (Please don't pretend to be on some noble quest for the truth.  That doesn't suit you.) Your knee jerk support of whoever dreamed up this story about Pat Tillman is what is wrong.

I've exhibited nothing of the sort.
I'm simply stating the facts.

Someone in the government got handed lemons and came up with a god awful way to make lemonade out of it. And your bull headed insistance they did nothing wrong is nothing short of stupid. I expect that type of response from Ricky, but you were in the military and should know better.

Second, what they did, in infiorming the parents is what HAD to be done.  They did not lie to them. They simply witheld the whole story until the investigation was complete.
THOSE are the rules that govern casualty notifications.
That's a fact.
There are no exceptions.

But you throw in a bunch of red herrings and straw men to obscure the point that while the government was glorifying the death of Pat Tillman, the simple fact was that he was killed by friendly fire. This in and of itself is not deserving of the Silver Star and belittles the accomplishments of other Silver Star winners.

Bullshit.
He was engaging the enemy when he was killed.
His actions were heroic at the time.
Had an American soldier accidentally shot Audie Murphy in the back while he was heroically fighting off the Germans, it wouldn't have negated his heroism.
Nor does the fact that Tillman was killed by friendly fire negate his.
PLEASE don't repeat the oft repeated quote of the "anonymous Afghan official" who claims that there were enemy present.
That would be beneath even you.

How dare you say he doesn't deserve it.

Was Pat Tillman a hero for having left NFL millions for death on a foreign battlefield? I think he was.

Personally, I find his NFL past to be irrelevant.
Is a man who heeds the call and leaves his wife and child behind less of a hero, because his salary was less?
You've been duped by the feeding frenzy.
You want to meet ahero, go down to you local MEPS station.

But in war the deeds of soldiers are often used by politicians for their own self serving reasons. I think this is what Tillman's parents are against. Not the soldiers who served with their son. Not the front line commanders. The politicians both in the army and in the civilian government.

I agree with you.

However, don't harness them to your cause so quickly.
They're just grieving parents, and might not be as filled with bile as you.

Before you start setting up your straw men for me, I'll tell you that I have made many condolence calls and was Battalion Funeral Officer for some time.

Then you should know... but I guess you choose to ignore the truth.
YOU know that the Casualty officer CANNOT hypothesize.
Yet you join the masses who mewl with ignorance, just because it furthers your agenda.

I have a Bronze Star, not a Silver Star and I understand what a soldier must do to earn a Silver Star. Just being there is not enough. They have service ribbons for that. Not getting killed, they have the purple heart for that. I don't know what Tillman's Silver Star Citation says. Do you?

Yes, I do.
Only a complete ______ would opine about it without reading it.

I'm guessing his parents know what it says and they know its not true. I'm thinking they believe those lies don't enhance their son's memory but devalue what he did do.

Maybe you should read his citation before you speak.
But no.  You assume it's nothing but a lie.


Tillman, 27, and his team were initially not in danger from the hostile small-arms and mortar fire when the April 22 ambush began. But when the rear section of their convoy became pinned down in rough terrain, Tillman ordered his team out of its vehicles "to take the fight to the enemy forces" on the higher ground.

As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed. The Army said his actions helped the trapped soldiers maneuver to safety "without taking a single casualty."

Quoted: Quoted: Quite frankly, TacticalStrat, I don't think you understand this discussion, at all. With all due respect, I think you are arguing over issues that no one else is arguing about. His fellow troops on the ground likely knew immediately that it was 'friendly fire' that took Pat Tillman's life. But the military does not accept that 'knowledge' as the be-all, end-all, of the issue. They will investigate it thoroughly. Which they did. And they confirmed after 5 weeks (!) what occurred on the other side of the earth! Quite frankly, I think that's amazing! You and the Left think that it's 'lying to Tillman's Parents.' And I think that is 'amazing', as well. Well, politics makes for strange bedfellows, we are told! Be careful about picking up some STDs from your political bedfellows! Eric The(That's'StupidThinkingDesigns')Hun It has been pretty evident for 2 days now he cannot handle complex reasoning tasks. Facts do not matter to him and supposition and emotion do. Someone makes a point… he throws in something unrelated and shouts Ah-ha… he simply cannot make simple distinctions among a set of facts. He says he is not doing x and then proceeds to do just that. He does not have any other intent but to throw rocks... You are arguing with a clown… it is pointless.

Bury your head in the sand............

Linky


U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Matthew Beevers said Saturday that Tillman was killed Thursday night in a firefight at about 7 p.m. on a road near Sperah, about 25 miles southwest of a U.S. base at Khost.

After coming under fire, Tillman’s patrol got out of their vehicles and gave chase, moving toward the spot of the ambush. Beevers said the fighting was “sustained” and lasted 15-20 minutes.
Tom Hauck / Getty Images file
Pat Tillman turned down a $3.6 million contract in 2002 to join the Army in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Beevers said Tillman was killed by enemy fire, but he had no information about what type of weapons were involved in the assault, or whether he died instantly.

Quoted: And the Left will giddily celebrate and repeat every single bitter, tear stained word from Mr. Tillman's mouth. Remember how they celebrated the pundits who called Pat Tillman an "idiot"? Now they are pretending to be "supportive" of Mr. Tillman's grief. They HATE heros.  Listen to the silence, as the media ignores individuals who distinguish themselves on the battlefield as "heros". But any chance to portray a soldier or Marine as a VICTIM.... ...oh boy. They jump at it. The Left HATED Tillman. They had nightmares of all the athletic, football playing Tillmans who used to torment them in the hallways of their High Schools (or more likely just ignore them). When Tillman dropped his NFL contract to enlist, they all just rolled their eyes and made sarcastic comments. When he died, they laughed, called him an idiot and said "See?, we told you so...". But now that they can capitalize on a father's grief, and an unfortunate tragedy... ...they can make Tillman into what they admire most:  a victim.   Just like them.

+1  Big Amen to those comments.

Sounds to me like the DU types got in touch with the Tillmans and egged them on about how they were "lied" to, and convinced them to go to the press with it.

Bottom line:

Even IF everything these nitwits are saying is true.
What are you going to do?
Dig him up and rip his medal off his chest?

Why don't you two start a petition drive to have his medal taken away from him?
What? Does that sound tacky?

Whatever administrative blunders or political games occurred...

...Pat Tillman had nothing to do with it.

Leave him the fuck alone.




Or put your money where your mouth is.  Start the petition drive.

R.L.T.W.

20% allied deaths in Gulf I were friendly fire....I know it was a quick campaign, but still...

Quoted: Leave it to Jimmy to come up with a post that would make his 'Stalin only killed 596,00 Russians' and 'Chairman Mao was a devout Buddhist' look positively brilliant! I'll deal with this shiite when I return. Ciao, Jimmy ! Eric The(Traveling)Hun

Hey Rickey, how many Russians did you see Stalin kill? How many Chinese did you see Mao kill?

How do you know anything about anything?

Just spout your usual BS its about all anyone hears from you.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I often wonder what shortcomings a man must have, and what demons must plague him, to make him try to belittle a dead soldier's sacrifice. We've see it here a few times. Those who engage in such behavior can't seem to help themselves. It dishonor's Tillman's memory and his service, to try to deconstruct and nitpick the administrative errors that may have occurred during the aftermath of his death. It was no grand conspiracy. It was simply sloppy. So what? Well, answer the question, TacticalStrat, what makes a man want to belittle the memory of a fallen soldier? (Please don't pretend to be on some noble quest for the truth.  That doesn't suit you.) Your knee jerk support of whoever dreamed up this story about Pat Tillman is what is wrong. I've exhibited nothing of the sort. I'm simply stating the facts. Someone in the government got handed lemons and came up with a god awful way to make lemonade out of it. And your bull headed insistance they did nothing wrong is nothing short of stupid. I expect that type of response from Ricky, but you were in the military and should know better. First of all, fuck off. Second, what they did, in infiorming the parents is what HAD to be done.  They did not lie to them. They simply witheld the whole story until the investigation was complete. THOSE are the rules that govern casualty notifications. That's a fact. There are no exceptions. But you throw in a bunch of red herrings and straw men to obscure the point that while the government was glorifying the death of Pat Tillman, the simple fact was that he was killed by friendly fire. This in and of itself is not deserving of the Silver Star and belittles the accomplishments of other Silver Star winners. Bullshit. He was engaging the enemy when he was killed. His actions were heroic at the time. Had an American soldier accidentally shot Audie Murphy in the back while he was heroically fighting off the Germans, it wouldn't have negated his heroism. Nor does the fact that Tillman was killed by friendly fire negate his. PLEASE don't repeat the oft repeated quote of the "anonymous Afghan official" who claims that there were enemy present. That would be beneath even you. How fucking dare you say he doesn't deserve it. When was the last time you lead men in battle? Whe was the last time you got up from behind cover on a battlefield, and maneuvered to a position to better engage an enemy? I'm guessing never.  If you HAVE done such things, then your belittling HIS Silver Star as even MORE contemptable. What would you know about contemptible you REMF. I've got a CIB, do you? How many combat assault have you made? I've made 18. Jerks like you are a dime a dozen. You wouldn't make a pimple on real soldiers ass. You aren't even bright enough to know that Tillman would hate the lies more than anyone else. You make me sick with your self righteous protection for a bunch of army politicians and pentagon spin doctors. Given your dishonorable proclivity for bad mouthing dead soldiers, I'm guessing you just don't have the character for such a thing. But if you say so... Dishonorable? No real soldier wants to be remembered for a pack of lies, but then you wouldn't know about real soldiers, would you? Lecture me after you have a combat patch. I can just see you behind a desk dreaming about what it must be like to be a real soldier and knowing you'll never be more than desk jockey. Was Pat Tillman a hero for having left NFL millions for death on a foreign battlefield? I think he was. Personally, I find his NFL past to be irrelevant. Is a man who heeds the call and leaves his wife and child behind less of a hero, because his salary was less? You've been duped by the feeding frenzy. You want to meet ahero, go down to you local MEPS station. But in war the deeds of soldiers are often used by politicians for their own self serving reasons. I think this is what Tillman's parents are against. Not the soldiers who served with their son. Not the front line commanders. The politicians both in the army and in the civilian government. I agree with you. However, don't harness them to your cause so quickly. They're just grieving parents, and might not be as filled with bile as you. Before you start setting up your straw men for me, I'll tell you that I have made many condolence calls and was Battalion Funeral Officer for some time.   Then you should know... but I guess you choose to ignore the truth. YOU know that the Casualty officer CANNOT hypothesize. Yet you join the masses who mewl with ignorance, just because it furthers your agenda. I have a Bronze Star, not a Silver Star and I understand what a soldier must do to earn a Silver Star. Just being there is not enough. They have service ribbons for that. Not getting killed, they have the purple heart for that. I don't know what Tillman's Silver Star Citation says. Do you? Yes, I do. Only a complete asshole would opine about it without reading it. I'm guessing his parents know what it says and they know its not true. I'm thinking they believe those lies don't enhance their son's memory but devalue what he did do. Maybe you should read his citation before you speak. But no.  You assume it's nothing but a lie. Christ!  You disgust me. \ Yeah, you keep sticking up for politicians flunkeys and claim it as patriotism. You're the worst kind of phoney, one who is willing to sacrifice men in combat without calling their leaders in Washington to task for their deaths. But then I'll bet you never get your hands dirtier than the scum who cover up their mistakes with the American flag so they can't be called to task. Tillman, 27, and his team were initially not in danger from the hostile small-arms and mortar fire when the April 22 ambush began. But when the rear section of their convoy became pinned down in rough terrain, Tillman ordered his team out of its vehicles "to take the fight to the enemy forces" on the higher ground. As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed. The Army said his actions helped the trapped soldiers maneuver to safety "without taking a single casualty."

Quoted: You know, Jimmy, after reading your response to Cincinnatus, just above my last post.... Well, you may have even reached a lower point in my estimation than at any point in the past! I did NOT think that was possible. But you have proven yourself to be a real shiitehook, indeed! Incredible. If it were anyone else, I would believe that some vile reprobate had snuck into their computer room with the view of destroying whatever reputation that individual may have had, by typing and posting the most insensitive, baseless, and crude response their grimy little mind could conceive....but knowing you...I can well believe that you wrote it, indeed! <sigh> You are a real specimen. Eric The(JustThink'Specimen';ThatShouldTellYouAll)Hun

And you, you little semi-literate moron. You apologist for all the liars and murderers who celebrate violence and dishonor.

I get sick of hearing your self righteous proclamations. You who doesn't appear to have ever given anything back to this country.

Keep it up you phony Christian. Do you not see the hypocrasy you embrace. Are you in any way Christlike? You don't demonstrate any Christian virtues here.

Are you meek? Are you generous? Do you embrace the truth? Do you renounce violence?

Listenening to your words I would believe you followed Satan rather than Jesus.

Quoted: Quoted: Hey Rickey, how many Russians did you see Stalin kill? Not any, actually, for I was less than one year of age when that commie bastard died, but only an idiot would believe that you would have to witness any deaths to learn that someone was a murderer! And only a fool would believe anything written of Stalin's murders by the KGB! Who do you believe Ricky? Do you have any evidence to contradict or reinforce? Or are just being the blowhard you usually are? I guess that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?You believe the KGB, I believe everyone else! Who is everyone else, blowhard? Who are you going to tell us knows the truth, blowhard. Lets see what evidence you have, blowhard. How many Chinese did you see Mao kill? None, for I've never been to China to see his handiwork. But only a fool would think that he was a 'devout Buddhist'! Have you never read of his life? As a child he was a devout Buddist, blowhard. Why don't you try a little honest scholarship sometime. Or is it just so easy to make up your little lies. Blowhard. How do you know anything about anything? Unless I view the incident personally, or gain knowledge of a subject personally, I will depend upon the words of folks whose knowledge, opinions, and views have withstood the test of investigation and time, or who have shown themselves to be capable of accurately and truthfully reporting a distant event. Like who, blowhard? I don't read the jack shiite that you must read, and that's for certain! Just spout your usual BS its about all anyone hears from you. Actually, IF I post anything that is beyond my own personal knowledge, I will ordinarily point to some specific source for the information I present, as anyone who regularly reads my posts can attest. As a matter of fact, that's precisely how we found out of the shallowness of your own understanding of much of human history. I posted several pages of historical sources for the victims of 'Godless' Communism to show that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others were guilty of the most heinous and extraordinary numbers of human deaths in the 20th Century! You've shown nothing but a bunch of self serving lies. Blowhard. As you always do. You spewed forth a response that claimed that 'Stalin only killed 596,000 of his own people from 1928 until his death in 1953.' And what or who was the source that you used for that unbelievably idiotic number? The fricking KGB! The KGB! Thats it. Use big letters. Blow a little harder. How can anyone be so assiduously blind and ill-informed? Wait! We're talking about you! And, Thank God, I simply don't know how you do it! Eric The('Un-fricking-believable'IsNotASufficientResponse)Hun

Do you realize you contributed nothing of substance in your post, you stupid blowhard? Can anyone find a shred of factual information in there?

That is the definition of a blowhard! Oh wait. I almost forgot. LAWYER!

I'm sorry, is calling you a 'lawyer' a coc violation? If it is, I apologize.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hey Rickey, how many Russians did you see Stalin kill? Not any, actually, for I was less than one year of age when that commie bastard died, but only an idiot would believe that you would have to witness any deaths to learn that someone was a murderer! And only a fool would believe anything written of Stalin's murders by the KGB! Who do you believe Ricky? Do you have any evidence to contradict or reinforce? Or are just being the blowhard you usually are? I guess that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?You believe the KGB, I believe everyone else! Who is everyone else, blowhard? Who are you going to tell us knows the truth, blowhard. Lets see what evidence you have, blowhard. How many Chinese did you see Mao kill? None, for I've never been to China to see his handiwork. But only a fool would think that he was a 'devout Buddhist'! Have you never read of his life? As a child he was a devout Buddist, blowhard. Why don't you try a little honest scholarship sometime. Or is it just so easy to make up your little lies. Blowhard. How do you know anything about anything? Unless I view the incident personally, or gain knowledge of a subject personally, I will depend upon the words of folks whose knowledge, opinions, and views have withstood the test of investigation and time, or who have shown themselves to be capable of accurately and truthfully reporting a distant event. Like who, blowhard? I don't read the jack shiite that you must read, and that's for certain! Just spout your usual BS its about all anyone hears from you. Actually, IF I post anything that is beyond my own personal knowledge, I will ordinarily point to some specific source for the information I present, as anyone who regularly reads my posts can attest. As a matter of fact, that's precisely how we found out of the shallowness of your own understanding of much of human history. I posted several pages of historical sources for the victims of 'Godless' Communism to show that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others were guilty of the most heinous and extraordinary numbers of human deaths in the 20th Century! You've shown nothing but a bunch of self serving lies. Blowhard. As you always do. You spewed forth a response that claimed that 'Stalin only killed 596,000 of his own people from 1928 until his death in 1953.' And what or who was the source that you used for that unbelievably idiotic number? The fricking KGB! The KGB! Thats it. Use big letters. Blow a little harder. How can anyone be so assiduously blind and ill-informed? Wait! We're talking about you! And, Thank God, I simply don't know how you do it! Eric The('Un-fricking-believable'IsNotASufficientResponse)Hun Do you realize you contributed nothing of substance in your post, you stupid blowhard? Can anyone find a shred of factual information in there? That is the definition of a blowhard! Oh wait. I almost forgot. LAWYER! I'm sorry, is calling you a 'lawyer' a coc violation? If it is, I apologize.

You know I can be a real asshole at times…

But your wanton attack on a mans personal religious beliefs is way over the line… along with the other nasty stuff.

And then this…

Do yourself a favor and shut up…

Quoted: I would expect nothing less from the Mil./Gubment.  This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is why I never joined the Mil. My worst fear was to die in some foreign shithole, and have it covered up by some jackoff bureaucrat.

That and you're a pussy.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I often wonder what shortcomings a man must have, and what demons must plague him, to make him try to belittle a dead soldier's sacrifice. We've see it here a few times. Those who engage in such behavior can't seem to help themselves. It dishonor's Tillman's memory and his service, to try to deconstruct and nitpick the administrative errors that may have occurred during the aftermath of his death. It was no grand conspiracy. It was simply sloppy. So what? Well, answer the question, TacticalStrat, what makes a man want to belittle the memory of a fallen soldier? (Please don't pretend to be on some noble quest for the truth.  That doesn't suit you.) Your knee jerk support of whoever dreamed up this story about Pat Tillman is what is wrong. I've exhibited nothing of the sort. I'm simply stating the facts. Someone in the government got handed lemons and came up with a god awful way to make lemonade out of it. And your bull headed insistance they did nothing wrong is nothing short of stupid. I expect that type of response from Ricky, but you were in the military and should know better. First of all, fuck off. Second, what they did, in infiorming the parents is what HAD to be done.  They did not lie to them. They simply witheld the whole story until the investigation was complete. THOSE are the rules that govern casualty notifications. That's a fact. There are no exceptions. But you throw in a bunch of red herrings and straw men to obscure the point that while the government was glorifying the death of Pat Tillman, the simple fact was that he was killed by friendly fire. This in and of itself is not deserving of the Silver Star and belittles the accomplishments of other Silver Star winners. Bullshit. He was engaging the enemy when he was killed. His actions were heroic at the time. Had an American soldier accidentally shot Audie Murphy in the back while he was heroically fighting off the Germans, it wouldn't have negated his heroism. Nor does the fact that Tillman was killed by friendly fire negate his. PLEASE don't repeat the oft repeated quote of the "anonymous Afghan official" who claims that there were enemy present. That would be beneath even you. How dare you say he doesn't deserve it. What would you know about contemptible you REMF. I've got a CIB, do you? How many combat assault have you made? I've made 18.

We actually don't wear "patches".  18, huh? Good for you.  You know, you're the very first poster on this board who I've ever seen announce to all his medals and his particular "patches".  Personally, I find that tacky.  Marines I've known don't do such things.  Neither do any of the soldiers I've known.

Oh, except you.


And frankly, given your behavior, I find it hard to believe.  Maybe it's true.  If so, you sure don't live up to it.  

Jerks like you are a dime a dozen. You wouldn't make a pimple on real soldiers ass. You aren't even bright enough to know that Tillman would hate the lies more than anyone else. You make me sick with your self righteous protection for a bunch of army politicians and pentagon spin doctors.

I think he'd be more disgusted by men like you, who harness and exploit his parents' grief to further your political position.  You even went so far as to say he didn't deserve his medal.  Oh, I'm sure he'd really appreciate that.  He's dead.  Deserved or not, you don't question whether or not a dead soldier deserved his medal.  YOU JUST DON'T DO IT.  

Given your dishonorable proclivity for bad mouthing dead soldiers, I'm guessing you just don't have the character for such a thing. But if you say so... Dishonorable? No real soldier wants to be remembered for a pack of lies, but then you wouldn't know about real soldiers, would you? Lecture me after you have a combat patch. I can just see you behind a desk dreaming about what it must be like to be a real soldier and knowing you'll never be more than desk jockey.

Yes, 19 years of Marine Infantry enlisted and commissioned, and they've yet to give me any "patches".  

I must admit, I've never dreamed of what it's like to be a "soldier".  

Was Pat Tillman a hero for having left NFL millions for death on a foreign battlefield? I think he was. Personally, I find his NFL past to be irrelevant. Is a man who heeds the call and leaves his wife and child behind less of a hero, because his salary was less? You've been duped by the feeding frenzy. You want to meet ahero, go down to you local MEPS station. But in war the deeds of soldiers are often used by politicians for their own self serving reasons. I think this is what Tillman's parents are against. Not the soldiers who served with their son. Not the front line commanders. The politicians both in the army and in the civilian government. I agree with you. However, don't harness them to your cause so quickly. They're just grieving parents, and might not be as filled with bile as you. Before you start setting up your straw men for me, I'll tell you that I have made many condolence calls and was Battalion Funeral Officer for some time.   Then you should know... but I guess you choose to ignore the truth. YOU know that the Casualty officer CANNOT hypothesize. Yet you join the masses who mewl with ignorance, just because it furthers your agenda. I have a Bronze Star, not a Silver Star and I understand what a soldier must do to earn a Silver Star. Just being there is not enough. They have service ribbons for that. Not getting killed, they have the purple heart for that. I don't know what Tillman's Silver Star Citation says. Do you? Yes, I do. Only a complete asshole would opine about it without reading it. I'm guessing his parents know what it says and they know its not true. I'm thinking they believe those lies don't enhance their son's memory but devalue what he did do. Maybe you should read his citation before you speak. But no.  You assume it's nothing but a lie. Yeah, you keep sticking up for politicians flunkeys and claim it as patriotism. You're the worst kind of phoney, one who is willing to sacrifice men in combat without calling their leaders in Washington to task for their deaths. But then I'll bet you never get your hands dirtier than the scum who cover up their mistakes with the American flag so they can't be called to task.

So I'm all of that, huh?  Please.  Get over yourself.  

You bad mouth a dead soldier and say his medals are not deserved, and then you have the nerve to be self-righteous about it?



Read what he did, and tell me why he didn't deserve his medal.  If you think the account is a lie, provide proof:

Tillman, 27, and his team were initially not in danger from the hostile small-arms and mortar fire when the April 22 ambush began. But when the rear section of their convoy became pinned down in rough terrain, Tillman ordered his team out of its vehicles "to take the fight to the enemy forces" on the higher ground.

As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, he directed his team into firing positions, the Army said. As he sprayed the enemy positions with fire from his automatic rifle, he was shot and killed. The Army said his actions helped the trapped soldiers maneuver to safety "without taking a single casualty."




Publicly announcing that a decorated, fallen soldier doesn't deserve his medals is the most contemptable thing imaginable.

But then, seeing you attack a man's religious beliefs in the very same breath provides all the illumination into your "character" that anyone would need.

Bad mouthing fallen soldiers, attacking people's deeply held religious beliefs...

...sad.

Here's today editorial from the St. Petersburg Times. I'll let it speak for me.

'They blew up their poster boy'
A Times Editorial
Published May 25, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pat Tillman inspired the country after 9/11, giving up his professional football career to fight terrorism as an Army Ranger. But that sacrifice apparently wasn't enough for the Army. It misled the public about Tillman's friendly fire death as it exploited the false version to mass market patriotism. This fraud dishonored a fallen soldier and deepened his family's anguish.

Tillman was killed in Afghanistan in April 2004 in what the Army first claimed was a heroic assault on a hilly nest amid a storm of enemy fire. Yet according to the most recent investigation, the Army had determined almost immediately that Tillman was killed accidentally by his own men. Some later burned his uniform and body armor. Within days of the incident, according to the Washington Post, top Army officials were told the death was by friendly fire, but the Army waited for weeks to disclose the real story, after a public memorial service burnished the mythical firefight.

The irony of it all is that Tillman never sought acclaim for leaving professional football. He was motivated by ideals and a love of his country, his family said - an obvious contrast with Army officials who tried to sugarcoat a reckless accident. In an interview with the Post, Tillman's parents said the Army's "lies" have made it harder for them to accept their son's death. "They realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out," Patrick Tillman Sr. told the Post. "They blew up their poster boy." His family had to replay Tillman's final moments and digest how a selfless soldier had been used. Pat Tillman and his parents deserved better.

Quoted: He's a hero no matter how he died... But if the government is going to lie about his death, kind of makes you wonder what else they lie about.

This is the same DU troll who told me he voted for Hanoi John Kerry in the last election.... Apparantly, it's OK for *some* people to lie - to this guy - after all, Kerry is hardly known for his "honesty"....



   - georgestrings

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But if the government is going to lie about his death, kind of makes you wonder what else they lie about. I wonder more about when they actually tell the truth... simplifies things a bit. When did the Goverment lie in this case?

They didn't  - it's just a DU troll stirring the shit again...



  - georgestrings

Quoted: Quoted: How long was it between the time he was killed and when it was released that it was friendly fire? A week? Honestly, I can't remember exactly - but shit - it wasn't that long. I'm afraid this smells like another attempt of the media to "get back" at the Bush Admin by attacking the military.  When will people be fed up with this ruse? You are correct... another attempt to undermine the war effort with half truths. It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military never denied this. The military will not make any definitive statement until there investigation are done… which is exactly what happen in this case. And normally the family would not have been advised it was a “friendly fire” incident until the investigation was finished…as happen in this case. It appears Pat Tillman’s father expected special treatment given to no other solider. IMO the US Army is should have never divulged the nature of the death. After the fact it is not really important, the family and public have no need to know. Pat Tillman serve and he died for his country, his manner of death does not change that. And for those that claim there is some right to know and that that is best… how far does this right extend, do we take pictures of the dead body or body pieces to show to the family complete with a medical description of how death occurred. This is no way to fight a war if you intend to win.

Both posters are absolutely correct....



  - georgestrings

Quoted: I would expect nothing less from the Mil./Gubment.  This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is why I never joined the Mil. My worst fear was to die in some foreign shithole, and have it covered up by some jackoff bureaucrat.

You obviously have NO concept about DUTY. That is what distinguishes Pat Tillman from you.





RIP SGT Tillman. We are saddened and diminsished by your loss.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How long was it between the time he was killed and when it was released that it was friendly fire? A week? Honestly, I can't remember exactly - but shit - it wasn't that long. I'm afraid this smells like another attempt of the media to "get back" at the Bush Admin by attacking the military.  When will people be fed up with this ruse? You are correct... another attempt to undermine the war effort with half truths. It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military never denied this. The military will not make any definitive statement until there investigation are done… which is exactly what happen in this case. And normally the family would not have been advised it was a “friendly fire” incident until the investigation was finished…as happen in this case. It appears Pat Tillman’s father expected special treatment given to no other solider. IMO the US Army is should have never divulged the nature of the death. After the fact it is not really important, the family and public have no need to know. Pat Tillman serve and he died for his country, his manner of death does not change that. And for those that claim there is some right to know and that that is best… how far does this right extend, do we take pictures of the dead body or body pieces to show to the family complete with a medical description of how death occurred. This is no way to fight a war if you intend to win.

The military released that Tillman's death was "probably" caused by friendly fire on May 29th, which is 5 weeks after his death, which occurred on April 22nd. Can you guys not get anything straight?

Tillman
'probably' killed
by friendly fire

Quoted: Here's today editorial from the St. Petersburg Times. I'll let it speak for me. 'They blew up their poster boy' A Times Editorial Published May 25, 2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pat Tillman inspired the country after 9/11, giving up his professional football career to fight terrorism as an Army Ranger. But that sacrifice apparently wasn't enough for the Army. It misled the public about Tillman's friendly fire death as it exploited the false version to mass market patriotism. This fraud dishonored a fallen soldier and deepened his family's anguish. Tillman was killed in Afghanistan in April 2004 in what the Army first claimed was a heroic assault on a hilly nest amid a storm of enemy fire. Yet according to the most recent investigation, the Army had determined almost immediately that Tillman was killed accidentally by his own men. Some later burned his uniform and body armor. Within days of the incident, according to the Washington Post, top Army officials were told the death was by friendly fire, but the Army waited for weeks to disclose the real story, after a public memorial service burnished the mythical firefight. The irony of it all is that Tillman never sought acclaim for leaving professional football. He was motivated by ideals and a love of his country, his family said - an obvious contrast with Army officials who tried to sugarcoat a reckless accident. In an interview with the Post, Tillman's parents said the Army's "lies" have made it harder for them to accept their son's death. "They realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out," Patrick Tillman Sr. told the Post. "They blew up their poster boy." His family had to replay Tillman's final moments and digest how a selfless soldier had been used. Pat Tillman and his parents deserved better.

This is the key point I have been focusing on throughout this whole discussion. This is the problem that I have with how the Army handled Tillman's death. The army simply saw it as a huge PR opportunity.

"It misled the public about Tillman's friendly fire death as it exploited the false version to mass market patriotism. This fraud dishonored a fallen soldier and deepened his family's anguish."

Quoted: Quoted: I would expect nothing less from the Mil./Gubment.  This kind of bureaucratic stupidity is why I never joined the Mil. My worst fear was to die in some foreign shithole, and have it covered up by some jackoff bureaucrat. That and you're a pussy.

Pretty much....



  - georgestrings

Dupe post

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How long was it between the time he was killed and when it was released that it was friendly fire? A week? Honestly, I can't remember exactly - but shit - it wasn't that long. I'm afraid this smells like another attempt of the media to "get back" at the Bush Admin by attacking the military.  When will people be fed up with this ruse? You are correct... another attempt to undermine the war effort with half truths. It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military never denied this. The military will not make any definitive statement until there investigation are done… which is exactly what happen in this case. And normally the family would not have been advised it was a “friendly fire” incident until the investigation was finished…as happen in this case. It appears Pat Tillman’s father expected special treatment given to no other solider. IMO the US Army is should have never divulged the nature of the death. After the fact it is not really important, the family and public have no need to know. Pat Tillman serve and he died for his country, his manner of death does not change that. And for those that claim there is some right to know and that that is best… how far does this right extend, do we take pictures of the dead body or body pieces to show to the family complete with a medical description of how death occurred. This is no way to fight a war if you intend to win. The military released that Tillman's death was "probably" caused by friendly fire on May 29th, which is 5 weeks after his death, which occurred on April 22nd. Can you guys not get anything straight? Tillman 'probably' killed by friendly fire

I usnderstand that it appears you're not bright enough to understand that an investigation took place, and that didn't happen overnight.... Of course, understanding THAT fact would get in the way of your leftwing agenda....



  - georgestrings

The thing is...

The "Army" didn't do anything in terms of "publicizing" Tillman's death.
That was all generated by the Media.
Ask the PAO of any base about the death of a soldier, and you'll get much of the same.  It's just that no one cares about any old dead soldier.  They DO care about Tillman.  He was celebrated by the Right as a hero and an example of patriotism.  He was belittled by the Left as an "idiot", and as a symbol of an unjust war.
When he died, those who had their axes ready to grind, did so as they always do...
...and the Left, it appears, is winning the media battle (as they often do).

Those PAOs who were given the unenviable task of answering questions, did what ALL PAOs do when asked about a fallen soldier:
They paint the event in the best light possible.

Those who claim that there was no enemy present are taking the word of "an anonymous Afghan official" over that of every soldier present at the time.
Who would do such a thing?
Easy.  Someone who WANTS it to be true.
Who would WANT this to be true?

Who would WANT to paint Tillmans death in a negative light?
Who would seek out every single negative article and conspiracy theory that buttresses this desire to belittle Tillman's sacrifice?

I don't know.

TacticalStrat.... why do you prefer to believe the worst?
Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to anything that denigrates his sacrifice?
Hmmm?

Seeking the truth requires an open mind.
What you are doing, is seeking evidence to support you already held beliefs.
Or more to the point, what you WANT to believe.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How long was it between the time he was killed and when it was released that it was friendly fire? A week? Honestly, I can't remember exactly - but shit - it wasn't that long. I'm afraid this smells like another attempt of the media to "get back" at the Bush Admin by attacking the military.  When will people be fed up with this ruse? You are correct... another attempt to undermine the war effort with half truths. It was reported by various sources that it was as a likely “friendly fire” death with in 2 days. The military never denied this. The military will not make any definitive statement until there investigation are done… which is exactly what happen in this case. And normally the family would not have been advised it was a “friendly fire” incident until the investigation was finished…as happen in this case. It appears Pat Tillman’s father expected special treatment given to no other solider. IMO the US Army is should have never divulged the nature of the death. After the fact it is not really important, the family and public have no need to know. Pat Tillman serve and he died for his country, his manner of death does not change that. And for those that claim there is some right to know and that that is best… how far does this right extend, do we take pictures of the dead body or body pieces to show to the family complete with a medical description of how death occurred. This is no way to fight a war if you intend to win. The military released that Tillman's death was "probably" caused by friendly fire on May 29th, which is 5 weeks after his death, which occurred on April 22nd. Can you guys not get anything straight? Tillman 'probably' killed by friendly fire I usnderstand that it appears you're not bright enough to understand that an investigation took place, and that didn't happen overnight.... Of course, understanding THAT fact would get in the way of your leftwing agenda....   - georgestrings

It appears you may not know the difference between the meaning of "enemy fire" and "friendly fire". Do you see any inaccuracies in the below statement from the military within days of when Tillman was killed? Pay close attention to the text in red.


Linky


U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Matthew Beevers said Saturday that Tillman was killed Thursday night in a firefight at about 7 p.m. on a road near Sperah, about 25 miles southwest of a U.S. base at Khost.

After coming under fire, Tillman’s patrol got out of their vehicles and gave chase, moving toward the spot of the ambush. Beevers said the fighting was “sustained” and lasted 15-20 minutes.
Tom Hauck / Getty Images file
Pat Tillman turned down a $3.6 million contract in 2002 to join the Army in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Beevers said Tillman was killed by enemy fire, but he had no information about what type of weapons were involved in the assault, or whether he died instantly.

I know you may find this hard to believe...

...but perhaps that PAO simply assumed that it was enemy fire.
There WAS an enemy engagement, and he WAS shot. Nine enemy fighters were killed in this engagement.

Or do you think he TOO was let in on the vast conspiracy?
Do you REALLY believe that the Army attempted to spread lies, and involved dozens of officers to perpetrate this lie?

Do you really believe that this PAO, thousands of miles away, really KNEW what happened on the ground?
They released that which was allowed, given the pending investigation, and rules governing Casualty Notifications.

I realize that you WANT to believe that Tillman's sacrifice was less than heroic.
Maybe you should just keep those desires to yourself.

Quoted: I know you may find this hard to believe... ...but perhaps that PAO simply assumed that it was enemy fire. There WAS an enemy engagement, and he WAS shot. Nine enemy fighters were killed in this engagement. Or do you think he TOO was let in on the vast conspiracy? Do you REALLY believe that the Army attempted to spread lies, and involved dozens of officers to perpetrate this lie? Do you really believe that this PAO, thousands of miles away, really KNEW what happened on the ground? They released that which was allowed, given the pending investigation, and rules governing Casualty Notifications. I realize that you WANT to believe that Tillman's sacrifice was less than heroic. Maybe you should just keep those desires to yourself.

So why wait 5 weeks to make a correction? Everyone associated with Tillman knew immediately how Tillman died. Am I to believe that the Military reported the exact time, location, details of the fight, details of his heroism, how long the fight lasted, yet were not clued in on how he died? Only an ideologue would believe that.


You need to try to understand that everything I have mentioned is about how the Army misrepresented facts. It has nothing to do with Tillman's service or his heroism, nor does it have anything to do with whether I'm a military wanna-be, or that I am promoting leftist propaganda.

Quoted: Quoted: I know you may find this hard to believe... ...but perhaps that PAO simply assumed that it was enemy fire. There WAS an enemy engagement, and he WAS shot. Nine enemy fighters were killed in this engagement. Or do you think he TOO was let in on the vast conspiracy? Do you REALLY believe that the Army attempted to spread lies, and involved dozens of officers to perpetrate this lie? Do you really believe that this PAO, thousands of miles away, really KNEW what happened on the ground? They released that which was allowed, given the pending investigation, and rules governing Casualty Notifications. I realize that you WANT to believe that Tillman's sacrifice was less than heroic. Maybe you should just keep those desires to yourself. So why wait 5 weeks to make a correction? Everyone associated with Tillman knew immediately how Tillman died. Am I to believe that the Military reported the exact time, location, details of the fight, details of his heroism, yet were not clued in on how he died? Only an idiot would believe that.

How many times must it be said before you comprehend?
There was an investigation underway as to whether he was killed by friendly fire or not.
There were bullets flying in both directions.
The nature of military investigations requires that no conclusions be arrived at until there is a complete investigation. EVEN IF there were folks on the ground who can speak definitively.

Just because there are eyewitnesses and confessions, does not eliminate the need for an investigation or a trial. It's that way in the civilian world, too.

You need to get it through your thick skull that everything I have mentioned is about how the Army misrepresented facts.

No it's not.  The LtCol who reported Tillman died from enemy fire wasn't lying.  Or do you know for a fact that he knew?
If so, let's see your evidence.

Even if the Army wanted to, they were bound by regulations regarding Casualty Notifications and Investigations, to NOT say anymore than necessary.
Because of the media firestorm, they were sloppy.
THAT is unfortunate.
It's just not evidence of a consiparcy to use Tillman as a recruiting tool, that's all.

It has nothing to do with Tillman's service or his heroism...

Yes it does.
You are insinuating that he was a victim, a pawn, and undeserved of his medal.
You said:

"...the Army gave Tillman the Silver Star for heroically leading a charge and dying by enemy fire, when he really was killed by friendly-fire, a pretty good indicator that they tried to misrepresent what happened..."


THAT is not right.

...nor does it have anything to do with whether I'm a military wanna-be, or that I am promoting leftist propaganda. Using your debating logic, I could claim the only reason you joined the military was to be with men since you're gay.

Umm.. that's YOUR logic, chief.
You should put that back in the closet.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know you may find this hard to believe... ...but perhaps that PAO simply assumed that it was enemy fire. There WAS an enemy engagement, and he WAS shot. Nine enemy fighters were killed in this engagement. Or do you think he TOO was let in on the vast conspiracy? Do you REALLY believe that the Army attempted to spread lies, and involved dozens of officers to perpetrate this lie? Do you really believe that this PAO, thousands of miles away, really KNEW what happened on the ground? They released that which was allowed, given the pending investigation, and rules governing Casualty Notifications. I realize that you WANT to believe that Tillman's sacrifice was less than heroic. Maybe you should just keep those desires to yourself. So why wait 5 weeks to make a correction? Everyone associated with Tillman knew immediately how Tillman died. Am I to believe that the Military reported the exact time, location, details of the fight, details of his heroism, yet were not clued in on how he died? Only an idiot would believe that. You need to get it through your thick skull that everything I have mentioned is about how the Army misrepresented facts. It has nothing to do with Tillman's service or his heroism, nor does it have anything to do with whether I'm a military wanna-be, or that I am promoting leftist propaganda. Using your debating logic, I could claim the only reason you joined the military was to be with men since you're gay.   Tac, Check yer IM ASAP

I have IM deactivated