Was kind of thinking so but was holding out hope. Thanks.

OP, I might sugest you buy some test equipment. If you are serious about ham radio and want to get past the baofeng talkies and into some better rigs and antenna setups, it would do you well. A VNA ''vector network analyzer" is an extremely powerful tool and they can be had now for about $50. They are a great diagnostic tool for antennas and coax. You may also want to look for an oscilloscope. Decent older Tektronix scopes can be had fairly cheap on ebay and are also a powerful tool to have on the bench. You can do so much more with those two things than justa bout anything else. It's second only to a decent DMM (and only because you typically use a DMM more for general stuff) Having some decent test gear can really wet your appetitie to learn more and become much more proficient with electronics.

And still nobody will really answer his question. It's not even that "technical". Anybody can understand it.

You can't do this BECAUSE the curvature of the Earth is too great and prevents much of anything over 6 miles. That's before you factor in other obstructions like trees, hills, and buildings. In order to have line of sight you'd need to be up high or have an antenna up high.

Is it just the length of the antenna that helps?

IE, one of the cable antennas weaved through a plate carrier - is it going to give you any advantage over the rubber ducky, or do you need to even bother?

Having a longer antenna will help, up to the full wavelength.  So, for a VHF radio at approximately 150 mhz you could get optimal performance out of a tuned antenna that is approximately 2 meters long.  That is impractical for anything other than a base station, so most VHF antennas use a fraction of the wavelength with inductor coils to get the impedance right.  A rubber duck antenna is a serious compromise, but it is convenient.

Antenna height is also a big factor.  Getting to higher ground will usually help.

But there is no reliable way to communicate 15 miles with an HT absent a repeater.

Attached File

The United states may be at a time where radios may be needed to help prevent heartache.

Someone is willing to help you here, and in a legal manner as well.



If not; PM me.

Chinese hooker with a limp?

I've worked in RF communications for over 35 years and the only people I know of that use meters are hams. I speak in frequencies and bands. If someone says to me 7.3Mhz I think HF. I have no idea what that is in meters. I look like a deer in headlights when people speak in meters.

Nothing wrong with learning.

Why go through the extra step? Are the displays on your radios in wavelengths or frequencies?

It's just a convenience to refer to a range of frequencies, when clearly a single wavelength doesn't apply to a range. That said, It's much easier to tell someone that a UV5R works in the 70cm and 2m bands rather than having to give them the frequency ranges.

And the quick and dirty way to do it is divide 300 by the frequency in MHz for an approximation of the actual wavelength in meters and then associate it with one of the well-known bands, like 2, 6, 10, 20, 40, etc.

Can anyone explain to me how radios can be set up for some occupations that utilize radios and frequencies that should require an FCC license, but those employers just set up the radios for the employees who will be using them?

Road crews, for instance.  Or cops.  Are there exemptions in the law for that?  Or can a licensed person set a radio up for an unlicensed end-user?

I think I'm like a handful of others in this thread.  I know little about radios.  I don't want to learn about radios.  But I want to have radios available in case other forms of communication break down for some reason.  And if other forms of communication have broken down, it's likely some sort of emergency situation where the FCC no longer cares about licenses.

I will refrain from name calling and ask you what part of my post you disagree with.  Antennas are of course complicated.

Businesses and government agencies have licenses to use particular frequencies which cover their employees.  Some construction companies also use MURS which does not require a license.

Setting aside trunked systems, a lot of the radios you see used professionally are of a different type, like FRS or GMRS.  Those types of radios are locked down much harder, with FCC defined restrictions on power, antenna, frequency selection, etc. The radios being discussed in this thread are often referred to as amateur radios and have far fewer restrictions...and therefore require operator licensing to help ensure the operator knows how to stay within the FCC boundaries using that more flexible equipment.

And for the record, I am not a ham, at all, but I do plan to take the technician exam this evening...and I once stayed in a Holiday Inn.

Land Mobile is not intended as a personal communications service. Land Mobile licenses are issued to organizations/businesses, not individual users.

Organization gets a license for n number of users, gives out radios.

Thanks.

Taggin this!

This, it's just nomenclature.

In land mobile you say "low band" instead of saying 29.7 to 50mhz band. "High band" instead of 150 to 174mhz.  Hams say "6 meters" instead of 50-54mhz. Boat folks say "VHF" for their marine frequencies in the 150 range, and "SSB" for their frequencies scattered in the HF spectrum. Just convenience names. An electrical engineer might say that VHF is 30-300mhz, while an aviator would call 225-400 the "UHF" band. Land mobile would say that UHF is 406 to 470 (maybe 512).

The "meters" terminology is also common in shortwave broadcasting, and in both cases is tradition going back to the very early days of radio.


Longest a monopole element can be and still have the main signal lobe perpendicular to the element is somewhere between 1/2 and 5/8 wavelength, depending on the ground plane. The "full wave" antenna is recurring CB mythology; not to be confused with various kinds of loop antennas however.

Agreed.  And while I think "HF" as well with 7MHz, there's a lot of space in the HF range, narrowing it down is rather helpful.

I was randomly scanning with my baofeng the other night and I think I caught this. Kind of interesting stuff, fun little hobby.

Is this a good one?

Yaesu FT3D

Attached File


2 m/70 cm Dual-Band Handheld

5 W C4FM/FM Dual Band Digital Transceiver

320x240 full color TFT LCD display

1200/9600bps APRS Data Communication

Compact Design and Reliable 5W RF Power Output (Selectable 5W/ 2.5W/ 1W/ 0.3W)

C4FM Digital V/D Mode, Voice FR Mode, Data FR Mode and Conventional FM Mode

700 mW of audio power with C4FM clear and crisp audio quality

Dual Band Simultaneous Receive (V+V/ U+U/ V+U/ U+V)

Built-in Bluetooth Unit enables the easy hands-free operation (NEW!)

Highly visible 320 x 240 dot matrix Full-Color TFT Touch Panel Display

Band Scope Function enables monitoring up to 79 channels centered around the current VFO frequency with high-speed (NEW!)

CAM (Club Channel Activity Monitor) function (NEW!)

System Fusion II compatible such as AMS (Automatic Mode Select), DG-ID (Digital Group ID), and Smart Navigation functions

WiRES-X Portable Digital Node compatible

Built-in 66ch High-Sensitivity GPS Receiver

1200/9600bps APRS Data Communication

Snapshot Feature

Voice Recording function for the received and transmitting voice and audio

Built-in On/Off Timer, Automatic Power Off (APO) and Time-out Timer (TOT)

micro SD Card Slot (up to 32GB)

IPX5 Rating Water Protection

Supplied Accessories
Antenna
7.2 V 2,200 mAh Lithium Ion Battery Pack (SBR-14LI)
Battery Charger (SAD-25)
Belt Clip (SHB-13)
USB Cable
Operating Manual
Specifications
Frequency Ranges:
A(Main) Band RX: 0.5 - 1.8MHz (AM Broadcast)
1.8 - 30MHz (SW Band)
30 - 76MHz (50MHz HAM)
76 - 108MHz (FM Broadcast)
108 - 137MHz (Air Band)
137 - 174MHz (144MHz HAM)
174 - 222MHz (VHF TV)
222 - 420MHz (GEN1)
420 - 470MHz (430MHz HAM)
470 - 800MHz (UHF Band)
800 - 999.90MHz (GEN2, USA Cellular Blocked)
B(Sub) Band RX: 108 - 137MHz (Air Band)
137 - 174MHz (144MHz HAM)
174 - 222MHz (VHF)
222 - 420MHz (GEN1)
420 - 470MHz (430MHz HAM)
470 - 580MHz (UHF Band)
TX: 144 - 148MHz, 430 - 450MHz
Circuit Type: NFM/ AM:Double-Conversion Superheterodyne
FM /AM Radio: Direct-Conversion
Modulation Type: F1D, F2D, F3E, F7W
RF Power Output: 5W/ 2.5W/ 1W/ 0.3W (@ Batteery pack or EXT DC)
Memory Channels: 1256
Waterproof Rating: IPX5
Case Size(W x H x D): 2.44"x 3.94"x 1.28" (62 x 100 x 32.5 mm)w/ SBR-14LI, w/o Knob & Antenna
Weight: 9.95oz (282 g) w/ SBR-14LI and Antenna

It's on the .82 repeater, so probably.

And the FT3D is a nice radio.  I've had several Yaesus in my time and I've not been disappointed with one yet.

I am no engineer, so I won't argue with you.  I did a search and read a few things after reading your post, and there are certainly other people on the Internet who say that the lobes approach vertical with a full wave, vertical antenna.  I have never tried it.  I run a Comet GP-1 5/8 wave at my QTH.

That said, I have two data points:

1) Comet sells a fairly expensive 2M/440CM antenna that is 5'11" inches long, which is pretty close to full wave on 144mhz.

Comet GP-3

2) My HF antenna is an end fed half wave cut for 80M, so it is full wave on 40M, and it works great for 40M and 20M.  Granted, it is horizontal, and the lobes might very well be at the ends.  I have not attempted to measure it.

Thanks

I don't think you can go wrong with a Yaesu HT.  And learn how to program it from the keypad  It is not that hard, and you may not always have a computer handy when you need to get into a new repeater.

The Comet has phasing - it's not just one continuous conductor. No more than 5/8 wavelength, then a phasing coil or folded section, then another active section that's in phase with the lower section.

The horizontal dipole you describe would have multiple lobes of signal along with nulls on the higher bands.

Passed my technician test a few minutes ago. Got 32/35.

Thanks for the info guys. So much to learn.....

Congrats.  

I did the same recently and had a call sign within 24 hours, but I think that depends on what org did your exam.

Are you thinking of doing general? I'm considering it, but mostly because I'm flat on my back recovering from surgery.

Yes, but it's sort of lower on the hierarchy than getting technician was.

Sorry about the back. A year ago I was 10 days post-op. Shoulda done this then.

OK I think this is the closest response to what most people are actually looking for.

The problem is newbs who want back up comms don’t know the right questions to ask and the knowledgeable have to answer questions a particular way so we get this jumbled mess.

Analogy: I’m a new gun owner, what is the minimum amount of guns I need to cover the prepper bases and what calibers should I get?

So I’m just going to throw this out there after reading through multiple threads as an example of the newb who wants emergency comms.

I want to talk across town. I want to hear what’s going on longer ranges without having to talk. I don’t want a hobby and I don’t want a license.

My perception from what I’ve been researching.

Listening: Baofang with upgraded antenna for cheap option to listen to local repeater ham convos and short wave radio.

Talking: MURS or CB.

Do they have similar ranges, will either or both cover 10 miles with line of site. What if any extra advantages does single side band provide on CB radios.

I’m leaning towards CB because I perceive there will be a lot more radio traffic in an emergency which translates to more local info and more people I can potentially reach.

Wild card: GMRS technically needs a license but it’s just a payment, covers the whole household.

Does GMRS without using repeaters have any range or other advantage over CB and/or MURS?

If a non ham had to pick between CB, MURS and GMRS to set up a home, autos/talkies which would you pick and why?

Tag

@thesilvercord

Very.

I'll take a shot at this.  CB uses 11 meter, which is HF.  It is however restricted to fairly low power (4 watts I think).  With a good antenna, you could in theory cover a significant distance, but give the number of people illegally running higher power and various manmade interference, I'm not sure how far you can talk reliably.I honestly don't know much about practical CB propagation.  CB does not lend itself to a walkie talkie format, and the ones I played with years ago were bulky and impractical. Trying to use 11 meters on a rubber duck antenna is a serious compromise.  Having a CB set up in your home or vehicle could make sense, but it would be my choice for tactical communications with my group.

GMRS is UHF. The frequencies are in the 400-500 mhz range.  In general, and al else being equal, they will be more line of sight than MURS, which uses VHF frequencies in the 150mhz range.  UHF will be somewhat better at penetrating buildings, but MURS will give you more range all else being equal.

I have Motorola RMM2050 MURS walkie talkies for my family and also use the same model for my church security team.  I like the VHF frequencies better, and they are robust, commercial radios.  There is also way less chatter on MURS than on GMRS or FRS.

The FT3DR is the top-of-the-line HT with all sorts of advanced features such as digital modes, GPS, etc. If you just want a high quality VHF/UHF radio, check out the FT-60R instead. It's basically the best quality analog HT.

Thank you for this. In your opinion, and it sounds like you answered this by your personal set up...

Are the practical ranges for MURS and CB a wash with equal equipment?

I specifically want to use a Baofeng to gather longer range info then talk locally to friends and family.

If MURS/CB have similar range potential with a mobile set ups and a base station with elevated antenna, is there a significant cost advantage with one over the other?

ETA is it illegal to modify an armature radio for CB use without a HAM license? I ask this because researching this you find this rabbit hole to go down.

What do you tell people who want a gun, but don't want to learn about guns, they just want to pull it out and use it if they need it?

MURS and CB are completely different and not even really comparable.  Legally, MURS is limited to 2 watts.  It works very well for walkie talkies in a line of sight situation.  Think going on a hike, communicating with your family guarding your home/retreat, or talking to your friend down the street.  CB uses HF (aka "short wave") frequencies but is very limited in legal power.  In theory you can talk over long distances with it, but you need a good antenna, and there is a lot of interference due to illegal operations.  HF propagation over long distances is depending on bouncing off the ionosphere, which not particularly reliable right now.  The only thing I would use it for is monitoring what other people are saying.  I've though of adding a CB to my emcomm box for exactly that purpose.

For monitoring what other people are saying, a ham HT, such as the Baorfeng UV-5R, can be useful for listening to amateur radio repeaters, but that is about it.  Local only.  They usually also have the ability to receive weather radio.  I would not count on a Baofeng for anything, and would spend a few dollars for a decent Yaesu or iCom HT.

You would probably be well served with a receiver that can receive HF (aka shortwave) transmissions.  This could be an amateur HF radio, but those are fairly expensive, or it could be a dedicate receiver.  This would allow you to listen to what amateur operators are saying.  You can also pick up shortwave broadcasts on it such as the BBC.  You will need a long wire antenna, which can be inexpensive.  I have an extra class license, but on HF I listen much more than I transmit, and if SHTF, it will be even moreso.

So , in summary, if I were you, I would get:

1. Good quality HT's that are type accepted for MURS for each member of your family or group.  Maybe also get speaker mics or headsets if budget allows, but don't buy junk.
2. A receiver that can receive from 1.8mhz to 30 mhz or so with a reasonable antenna.
3. A ham HT of some kind that isn't a Baofeng.  Take a look at the Yaesu FT-65R. They are under $100.

73,
MDF

ETA: And yes, I believe it is illegal to modify an amateur HF rig to transmit on CB bands.  I'm not sure why you would want to do so , as amateur HF rigs are quite expensive compared to CB radios.

About 87 reasons why GMRS.

I have a Comet GP-3.  I think the the antenna is mounted about 15' off the ground (If I get bored, I will measure the rungs on the tower).  The most active relay I am listening to is roughly 40 miles away.  So far I have only heard anything on one other closer relays (10 miles).  There are several other relays that are 20-30 miles away I have not heard yet.  There is a slight ridge about 5 miles west of me that may be blocking line of site to the repeaters due west.

Back when my family used CB's to communicate (before cell phones).  We had a directional antenna on a telescoping mast (TV mast) at my father's deer camp a little over 30 miles away.  We never had any issue communicating from our base antenna to a mobile radio attached to that antenna.  FWIW, I am pretty sure better CB's have an option to use single side band.  All of ours were side band models.  Likewise, I think the legal power limit for a CB on SSB is 12 watts.
---
Eventually I will need to google how close I can put antenna's together.  I could raise the GP-3, but then it would be opposite of the HF antenna on the same tower.

But assume you don't know how to program land mobile radios for GMRS or set up repeaters...

Thanks

On the radio, learn. On the repeater, bring lots of money and learn.

Then just buy legal type-approved GMRS equipment which will come pre-programmed.

Congrats