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Posted: 1/3/2020 1:36:33 PM EDT
Why OTM = FMJ In 300BLK: Magtech 115gr OTM Gel Test
Hollow point bullets are supposed to expand, right? Not so fast (pardon the pun). Hollow points don't always expand and here's why. Today's gel test is going to be .300 AAC Magtech 115gr OTM. @chopinbloc shoots it through an 8" AR-15 into calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin. Why OTM = FMJ In 300BLK: Magtech 115gr OTM Gel Test Follow ARFCOM! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ar15com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ar15com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ar15com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ar15com/ |
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IB4 "Why is this blue?"
IB4 "7n6 vaporized the muj because tumble!" IB4 ".300 AAC is totally not a hipster trend." IB4 "Y u no 16 inch barrel?" |
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OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often.
OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances. |
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Guessing this is a repurposed .308 projectile designed to perform at velocities higher than 300blk.
If so, then, well...duh. |
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Quoted:
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often. OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances. View Quote Unless Magtech is marketing this product as an expanding or fragmenting defensive round, the gel test is not measuring what the projectile was designed to do. Measuring 100-200-300yrd groups would be fine to judge the ammo. Knowing that this ammo does not expand or fragment out of short barrel 300 BLK guns is good though because some people may associate it with the performance of certain 5.56 OTM loads. So I do commend Chopping Block for that. |
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Quoted:
Guessing this is a repurposed .308 projectile designed to perform at velocities higher than 300blk. If so, then, well...duh. View Quote |
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Quoted:
Guessing this is a repurposed .308 projectile designed to perform at velocities higher than 300blk. If so, then, well...duh. View Quote |
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Quoted: Yes, but no. As you mentioned, most bullets used in .300 AAC loads are not designed for that MV. But as Fat_Mcnasty points out above, OTMs are not designed to expand or fragment. They're just very uniform and concentric, which leads to good accuracy. It's simply a happy accident that most 0.224" 75-77gr OTM/BTHP fragment pretty reliably at about 2,500 fps or better. View Quote OTM Open Tip Match. Hell, the name should tell ya something. |
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Quoted:
This is a problem with like half of the 300BLK on the market, and I think it cripples the popularity of the round when these projectiles perform suboptimally, which is to be expected given they are shooting several hundred of FPS lower than originally designed. View Quote |
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300 should have never been. Chambers and fires in another caliber that ensures mechanical failure on the same platform.
It's like loading 38 special cartridges with 44 magnum loads and just assuming they won't find their way into a standard 38. |
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Quoted: .223 has less material to bunch up at the tip, resulting in a thinner thickness . IIRC it in the .019 ish range, which at that speed it will pop. The brass jacketed 6mm ones I did would pop mid-flight in my 6mm-284. But I'm pushing over 4k in speed on those. OTM Open Tip Match. Hell, the name should tell ya something. View Quote |
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Quoted:
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often. OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances. View Quote |
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Quoted:
Im gunna say this dude knows what hes talking about when it comes to bullet designs View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often. OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances. |
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I would hope that by now people would know this. If you really want to kill something quick with a 300 you have two options. Sonic loads with 110 gr barns x or Hornady sst or subsonic with the $$$ pre fragmented copper bullets such as Lehigh. Everything else is plinking ammo.
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Quoted: It was pretty cool seeing these gray streaks running to the target then no hole in the target. That was when I was big into varmint hunting and needed a very fragile bullet to keep the bounces of misses down. I backed them down to about 3600 and was good to go. Now if you want to see something cool, we need someone with CNC to turn out some reverse ogive bullets. It creates a VERY large wound cavity. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/14562/thve-1219062.jpg View Quote It appears that fluted bullets do indeed produce substantial disruption in gel and in dead meat. So the only question remaining for me is whether the larger TSC they produce is enough to create wounding in living tissue that meets or exceeds the capability of traditional JHP. To put a finer point on it: Would a 9mm fluted bullet in the Lehigh style produce more, less, or about the same wounding as a 9mm 124gr HST? |
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Quoted: What are your thoughts on this as it relates to Lehigh and other fluted bullets at handgun speeds? I initially thought it was pure fuckery, considering Lehigh never mentioned anything about improved wounding when they introduced their Extreme Penetrator line, which didn't penetrate very extremely. And then they latched onto the idea of improved wounding after amateur YouTube testers exclaimed about the disturbance seen in gel. I tried to disprove the idea that flutes contribute to wounding, but I have been unable to do so in gelatin. It appears that fluted bullets do indeed produce substantial disruption in gel and in dead meat. So the only question remaining for me is whether the larger TSC they produce is enough to create wounding in living tissue that meets or exceeds the capability of traditional JHP. To put a finer point on it: Would a 9mm fluted bullet in the Lehigh style produce more, less, or about the same wounding as a 9mm 124gr HST? View Quote The same is true of gel. A larger, more rapidly expanding cavity will tear more gel than a smaller, slower expanding one. That said, gel isn't as resilient as most tissue's in a living human body. You'll commonly see permanent wound cavities in gel from energy levels that are proven to be insufficient to produce permanent wound cavities in humans, at least in the tissues that make up the vitals. Especially with 9mm, I think the bottom line is that there's just not enough energy to create much of a permanent wound channel, no matter how the bullet is designed. |
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Amazing how things don't perform as expected when you're comparing them to something completely different
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Quoted:
If the force of the stretch cavity exceeds the tissue's elasticity, then it will tear. That's basically a function of how far it stretches it, and how fast. The same is true of gel. A larger, more rapidly expanding cavity will tear more gel than a smaller, slower expanding one. That said, gel isn't as resilient as most tissue's in a living human body. You'll commonly see permanent wound cavities in gel from energy levels that are proven to be insufficient to produce permanent wound cavities in humans, at least in the tissues that make up the vitals. Especially with 9mm, I think the bottom line is that there's just not enough energy to create much of a permanent wound channel, no matter how the bullet is designed. View Quote I think you're probably right but I really want to see some testing in live tissue to be sure. |
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You guys ever done the Lehigh Defense rounds? (either super or subsonic flavors?)
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First.....I appreciate the testing....but man, what did .300blk do to you as a child? You really hate it.
With that said, I'm not sure if anyone is shocked by the results. I run the 75gr/77gr stuff in 5.56, because we all know that "if" they are going fast enough, they will fragment...even if that isn't what they were designed to do. Same could be said for 55gr FMJ out of long barrels for that matter. In .300blk, there are a handful of good factory loads that expand or fragment: 78gr Lehigh HVCQ 110gr Barnes Tac-TX, 110gr Hornady Black V-max 110gr Nosler Varmageddon 115gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos 125gr Fiocchi SST 194gr Lehigh Subsonic Maximum Expansion One that I would really like to see is the 110gr Hornady GMX Full Boar. Looks a lot like Hornady's answer to the Tac-TX (just not as pretty when it is expanded). |
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Quoted:
You guys ever done the Lehigh Defense rounds? (either super or subsonic flavors?) View Quote .300 AAC Lehigh 115 gr Controlled Chaos: is it a gimmick? .300 AAC Lehigh 115 gr Controlled Chaos Impact velocity: 2,146 fps Penetration: 19" Retained weight: 43.1 gr Neck: 1.75" Core: 43.1 gr Petals: 12.1 gr 14.4 gr 10.2 gr 11.6 gr 12.8 gr 16.0 gr Average petal weight: 12.9 gr Creating Chaos? .300 AAC Gorilla 110gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos Gel Test .300 AAC Gorilla 110gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos Penetration: 21.2" Retained weight: 96.8gr Max expansion: N/A Min expansion: N/A Neck: 1" TSC: 8" x 3.5" Velocities in fps: 2,126 2,093 2,129 2,107 2,096 Average: 2,110 StdDev: 16.66 Min: 2,093 Max: 2,129 Spread: 36 Ventura .300 BLK 194 gr subsonic Lehigh Maximum Expansion gel test and review .300 BLK Ventura subsonic 194 gr Lehigh Maximum Expansion Average velocity: 1,044 fps Average penetration: 15.6" Average retained weight: 192.3 gr Average max expansion: 1.203" Average min expansion: 0.308" |
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Quoted:
First.....I appreciate the testing....but man, what did .300blk do to you as a child? You really hate it. With that said, I'm not sure if anyone is shocked by the results. I run the 75gr/77gr stuff in 5.56, because we all know that "if" they are going fast enough, they will fragment...even if that isn't what they were designed to do. Same could be said for 55gr FMJ out of long barrels for that matter. In .300blk, there are a handful of good factory loads that expand or fragment: 78gr Lehigh HVCQ 110gr Barnes Tac-TX, 110gr Hornady Black V-max 110gr Nosler Varmageddon 115gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos 125gr Fiocchi SST 194gr Lehigh Subsonic Maximum Expansion One that I would really like to see is the 110gr Hornady GMX Full Boar. Looks a lot like Hornady's answer to the Tac-TX (just not as pretty when it is expanded). View Quote I have tested everything on that list except for Fiocchi SST and the 78gr Lehigh load. I can wholeheartedly concur that all except the subsonic are well suited for defense. I'd like to test the GMX too. It ought to perform well. |
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Quoted:
I really want to see some testing in live tissue to be sure. View Quote Joking aside, though, there has been lots of human testing thanks to high crime and frequent wars in the 21st century. Basically everyone has concluded you start to see some permanent cavitation around 500 ft-lbs, but that it's not really significant. Of course that's at least somewhat dependent on velocity. There's some reason to believe that low power high velocity rounds like 5.7 might bend the rules a little bit. Gunshot survival rates reflect that. Assuming you get to a surgeon right away, you're highly likely to survive a pistol wound, whereas if you get shot with a rifle your chances go way down. Surgeons say that rifle rounds often cause too much damage for them to stop the bleeding and there's just nothing that can be done. I think there's way too much emphasis on permanent cavitation. It's irrelevant whether someone lives or dies on the operating table if they stayed conscious long enough to shoot back at you. And if you don't hit something vital, it's highly likely that they will. You could get lucky and have them faint from the dip in blood pressure, but that seems to be a rarity. I saw a video of a guy in Syria that pretty much lost everything below the chest, and he was fully conscious for several minutes, and that convinced me that the idea of remote wounds or non CNS stops is pretty much winning the lottery if it happens to you. The only way to reasonably stop someone from pulling a trigger is to take out their CNS, or destroy enough of their heart that it cuts off the blood flow. Both of those are tiny targets. So what it usually comes down to is putting lots of bullets in the A zone as fast as possible. Then it becomes a game of statistics. If you put five or ten shots in the middle of their chest, the odds of the heart getting away from that unscathed are pretty remote. But of course having a bullet that penetrates straight and deep greatly increases your chances of success. Especially since people don't stand there and let you shoot them. They turn their shoulder, crouch down, and shield themselves with their arms and hands, one of which is probably holding a weapon. So if I have to choose between expansion or penetration, penetration wins out every time. I saw an autopsy report one time of a guy who got shot by police dozens of times, and had shot that many rounds back at them while this was happening. They found a .223 bullet had passed within an inch of his heart. Speer Gold Dot I think. That just goes to show that a near miss is still a miss, even with rounds known to wreak havoc on living tissue. Had he surrendered, he probably would have died on the operating table minutes to hours later, but even with that giant stretch cavity blowing up right next to his heart, he was still able to hold his ground and keep shooting. One inch to the right, and it would have been over within just a few seconds, regardless of whether it was a .223 or 9mm, or lots of other stuff for that matter. |
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Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11wnQFWhAXA .300 AAC Lehigh 115 gr Controlled Chaos Impact velocity: 2,146 fps Penetration: 19" Retained weight: 43.1 gr Neck: 1.75" Core: 43.1 gr Petals: 12.1 gr 14.4 gr 10.2 gr 11.6 gr 12.8 gr 16.0 gr Average petal weight: 12.9 gr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QybFnD6J_Mc .300 AAC Gorilla 110gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos Penetration: 21.2" Retained weight: 96.8gr Max expansion: N/A Min expansion: N/A Neck: 1" TSC: 8" x 3.5" Velocities in fps: 2,126 2,093 2,129 2,107 2,096 Average: 2,110 StdDev: 16.66 Min: 2,093 Max: 2,129 Spread: 36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-tUBBbY22k .300 BLK Ventura subsonic 194 gr Lehigh Maximum Expansion Average velocity: 1,044 fps Average penetration: 15.6" Average retained weight: 192.3 gr Average max expansion: 1.203" Average min expansion: 0.308" View Quote |
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You gotta dress your meplat with a Dremel man! Every tier one sniper knows this.
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Two questions:
1. When you shot it out of an 8 inch AR, how much more velocity does the suppressor give the bullet? Is it unintentionally duplicitous to say that the additional velocity afforded to the bullet by attaching a suppressor still represents what someone would get out of a true 8 inch barrel? 2. Or better yet, is there a measurable amount of comparison, say, an 8 inch suppressor (Or whatever the suppressor you use) is equal to 4 inches of additional barrel, etc? Always wondered the answer to number 2. |
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Quoted: What are your thoughts on this as it relates to Lehigh and other fluted bullets at handgun speeds? I initially thought it was pure fuckery, considering Lehigh never mentioned anything about improved wounding when they introduced their Extreme Penetrator line, which didn't penetrate very extremely. And then they latched onto the idea of improved wounding after amateur YouTube testers exclaimed about the disturbance seen in gel. I tried to disprove the idea that flutes contribute to wounding, but I have been unable to do so in gelatin. It appears that fluted bullets do indeed produce substantial disruption in gel and in dead meat. So the only question remaining for me is whether the larger TSC they produce is enough to create wounding in living tissue that meets or exceeds the capability of traditional JHP. To put a finer point on it: Would a 9mm fluted bullet in the Lehigh style produce more, less, or about the same wounding as a 9mm 124gr HST? View Quote What Lehigh did was try to take the best of both the reverse and normal Ogive so it feeds like normal, and weight is almost that of a standard round. So you don't get the really high pressure of the old THV. It's the story of a jack of all trades master of none. Some cool history at the link. the THV bullets. |
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Quoted:
Two questions: 1. When you shot it out of an 8 inch AR, how much more velocity does the suppressor give the bullet? Is it unintentionally duplicitous to say that the additional velocity afforded to the bullet by attaching a suppressor still represents what someone would get out of a true 8 inch barrel? 2. Or better yet, is there a measurable amount of comparison, say, an 8 inch suppressor (Or whatever the suppressor you use) is equal to 4 inches of additional barrel, etc? Always wondered the answer to number 2. View Quote |
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@Unkydon
Post the dead thing pics.. Unkydon, garryd both did testing and feedback for the 220 Sub expander I was working on. All on critters. And you will find that what works on a boar didn't work well on a deer. Mind you this is subsonic and not sonic per the OP. Just cool info that's fun to pass on. |
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Quoted: It was pretty cool seeing these gray streaks running to the target then no hole in the target. That was when I was big into varmint hunting and needed a very fragile bullet to keep the bounces of misses down. I backed them down to about 3600 and was good to go. Now if you want to see something cool, we need someone with CNC to turn out some reverse ogive bullets. It creates a VERY large wound cavity. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/14562/thve-1219062.jpg View Quote |
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The magtech stuff would be fine if the poi is the same as a Barnes 110 TACTX. Would make for good practice ammo.
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Quoted:
People like you are the reason nobody ever volunteers for anything anymore. Joking aside, though, there has been lots of human testing thanks to high crime and frequent wars in the 21st century. Basically everyone has concluded you start to see some permanent cavitation around 500 ft-lbs, but that it's not really significant. Of course that's at least somewhat dependent on velocity. There's some reason to believe that low power high velocity rounds like 5.7 might bend the rules a little bit. Gunshot survival rates reflect that. Assuming you get to a surgeon right away, you're highly likely to survive a pistol wound, whereas if you get shot with a rifle your chances go way down. Surgeons say that rifle rounds often cause too much damage for them to stop the bleeding and there's just nothing that can be done. I think there's way too much emphasis on permanent cavitation. It's irrelevant whether someone lives or dies on the operating table if they stayed conscious long enough to shoot back at you. And if you don't hit something vital, it's highly likely that they will. You could get lucky and have them faint from the dip in blood pressure, but that seems to be a rarity. I saw a video of a guy in Syria that pretty much lost everything below the chest, and he was fully conscious for several minutes, and that convinced me that the idea of remote wounds or non CNS stops is pretty much winning the lottery if it happens to you. The only way to reasonably stop someone from pulling a trigger is to take out their CNS, or destroy enough of their heart that it cuts off the blood flow. Both of those are tiny targets. So what it usually comes down to is putting lots of bullets in the A zone as fast as possible. Then it becomes a game of statistics. If you put five or ten shots in the middle of their chest, the odds of the heart getting away from that unscathed are pretty remote. But of course having a bullet that penetrates straight and deep greatly increases your chances of success. Especially since people don't stand there and let you shoot them. They turn their shoulder, crouch down, and shield themselves with their arms and hands, one of which is probably holding a weapon. So if I have to choose between expansion or penetration, penetration wins out every time. I saw an autopsy report one time of a guy who got shot by police dozens of times, and had shot that many rounds back at them while this was happening. They found a .223 bullet had passed within an inch of his heart. Speer Gold Dot I think. That just goes to show that a near miss is still a miss, even with rounds known to wreak havoc on living tissue. Had he surrendered, he probably would have died on the operating table minutes to hours later, but even with that giant stretch cavity blowing up right next to his heart, he was still able to hold his ground and keep shooting. One inch to the right, and it would have been over within just a few seconds, regardless of whether it was a .223 or 9mm, or lots of other stuff for that matter. View Quote |
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Quoted:
Two questions: 1. When you shot it out of an 8 inch AR, how much more velocity does the suppressor give the bullet? Is it unintentionally duplicitous to say that the additional velocity afforded to the bullet by attaching a suppressor still represents what someone would get out of a true 8 inch barrel? 2. Or better yet, is there a measurable amount of comparison, say, an 8 inch suppressor (Or whatever the suppressor you use) is equal to 4 inches of additional barrel, etc? Always wondered the answer to number 2. View Quote |
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Where is this 110gr sst you keep recommending? View Quote I like how my initial question has been ignored. I guess unbanning people and changing their name was supposed to go unnoticed? If you click old Bluefalcon threads and go to user info it takes you to @chopinbloc |
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Quoted:
No such thing. I like how my initial question has been ignored. I guess unbanning people and changing their name was supposed to go unnoticed? If you click old Bluefalcon threads and go to user info it takes you to @chopinbloc View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Where is this 110gr sst you keep recommending? I like how my initial question has been ignored. I guess unbanning people and changing their name was supposed to go unnoticed? If you click old Bluefalcon threads and go to user info it takes you to @chopinbloc |
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Quoted: Lol. I misspoke. I meant 110gr vmax. View Quote I did my own unscientific test (water jugs) on these about a year ago. link Had high hopes after seeing how the Rem. 120g OTMs performed in your test as well as what I've seen personally with water, but like you, got 0 fragmentation/expanding. They do seem to yaw a little earlier than a fmj though. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the test. I did my own unscientific test (water jugs) on these about a year ago. link Had high hopes after seeing how the Rem. 120g OTMs performed in your test as well as what I've seen personally with water, but like you, got 0 fragmentation/expanding. They do seem to yaw a little earlier than a fmj though. View Quote |
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Quoted:
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often. OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances. View Quote |
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